Michael Qualls - Having A Grownup, Childlike Faith
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God, you are listening to the Cumberland Road. I am your host, TJ Malinoski. Today's guest is reverend doctor Michael Qualls. He is the director of the Cumberland Presbyterian House of Studies, and he is the director of the program of alternate studies, another path for preparing women and men to the office of ministry. In our conversation, we talk about the preparation and educational aspect of ministry, what it means to become a practitioner, and how having deep conversations and relationships with others leading people to the faith. Michael weaves the art of metaphor and storytelling in our conversation in explaining how his journey has led to having a grown up childlike faith. And he takes the time to talk about his good friend, Jack. You are listening to the Cumberland Road podcast, and here is my conversation with reverend doctor Michael Qualls.
T.J.:Alright. Michael Qualls, thank you for joining me on the podcast. If you don't mind, would you just briefly describe who you are and for the listeners who may not know?
Michael:Oh, thanks, TJ. Good morning, to all of you. I'm, Michael Kuals. Most people know me as a southern country boy from rural South Arkansas, which is who I am. But, I've been in the ConvergeOne church since well, I've been a member of the common Presbyterian Church in some way since 1964, when I when I was 8 years old.
Michael:And, and, I have been nurtured in the common Presbyterian Church throughout that whole journey. Surrendered to preach at a very young age, at 12 and preached my first sermon at the age of 15 and, and went on to pastor church at the age of 19. And you can probably see or you can't see on the camera because you're just listening to me. If you could see, you could recognize that I've I've got a few miles on me by the way. 66 years old, and, it's been a great journey.
Michael:I've enjoyed it. So I direct my current position is directing the program of alternate studies. That's my primary responsibility. I've been a pastor all my life, and I I identify predominantly in that role. I am a pastor, still a pastor.
Michael:But, about 11 years ago, I was called, I guess, from a pastor, to this denomination wide ministry of helping folks prepare for ordained ministry, primary responsibility of program knowledge studies, in an alternate way. And what a joy it has been to serve in this way. All my passwords have been joyful, but this is also a joyful place to be in ministry in the Commer Grove Children Church. So, I have other responsibilities now as well in the church, and I and I serve I continue to preach pretty regularly in different places, and, that's still a source of real fulfillment and joy to me.
T.J.:Before we do a deep dive into your faith journey, what is the program of alternate studies? What does it do? Who is it for? Why does it exist?
Michael:Yeah. Thanks thanks for the question. As as I do travel around to the various presbyteries for these past 10 or 11 years, pre COVID, particularly, it was amazing to me how frequently I would discover that people don't know anything about the program model studies. I mean, even committees whose responsibility it is to guide candidates, didn't know what the Cumberland Presbyterian's program of alternate studies was all about. So it did my joy to educate people about that. Program model of studies is the last iteration of a of a real strong DNA in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And from our earliest days, I I call it a missional context that Cumberland Presbyterian realized that, there was a real dramatic need on American frontier for clergy to help lead congregations and evangelize and, and that there was a lack of of opportunities for them to get formal education.
Michael:Had to go back to the East Coast or Europe as you all probably know. And so the Covenant Lutheran Church from the very beginning saw a need to come alongside people who did not have full opportunity to avail themselves of that kind of education and prepare them best they could to do the work of ministry. And so the it's been there all along, but the program model studies, in 1984 was adopted by the denomination as the latest version of how we come alongside people called by God, women and men who've been hindered from that traditional route of a 4 year college and 3 year seminary. And, of course, it's more than that these days, but, anyway, to come alongside them and do the best we can to take their gifts and, and the offering of their ministry and and hone it and help it, and prepare them, shape help shape them to be good leaders of congregations and ministry and, in the common Presbyterian Church. So we get a variety of folks in that program.
Michael:I love to tell the story about the class I had that had a had a student that had 2 PhDs. In retirement age, went back and called by God to finish out their life, the last years of their life in ministry. So a person with 2 PhDs in the same classroom as a person with a GED, and it creates a lot of challenges for for for teachers. We've had the best in the denomination, my views. Personal, you know, present company accepted, I guess.
T.J.:Right. I just keep coming back as an inspiration.
Michael:We've we've had the best. We've had the best. I I can't say enough about those who have who devote themselves to help this program because they see the need, and they see how important it is. And they love the students and the program and what it does for the church. So, anyway, that's that's what the program is.
Michael:It's an alternate route. We usually until the last couple of years, we have a summer extension school, has met on the campus of Bethel University. We hope to go back this summer actually. And, because but COVID has interrupted all of that as everything else. So we gotta learn a new set of skills.
Michael:This online education has been something that just, was thrust upon us. Although we had already been experimenting with it some and, but we we all had to do it. We all had to take the whole program online. And, it's it's been challenging, but it's been really, really good. So that's probably more than you wanted to know.
T.J.:No. No. That's that's fine. Talk more about, the life of a student in the program of alternate studies and the balance of student life and family, and many of the students are in seminary or or I'm I'm sorry. Many of the students are also serving in the church in some capacity.
T.J.:And the challenges that they face. Talk briefly about that and and how the program of alternate studies encourages a balance between all those things.
Michael:As you know, ministry by itself is can is fraught with difficulties. It it it is it is I like to think of it as the most difficult thing a human being can enjoy.
T.J.:It is definitely one of the loneliest professions.
Michael:It is. And, I'm I'm being honest when I say I have enjoyed my life in ministry. It's the most fulfilling thing. I can't imagine a more blessed life than the one I have experienced as a minister, but it has not been without extreme difficulties. And, and so we recognize that's also true for our students.
Michael:So they are coming, many of them already in some role. I guess there's not really a stereotypical POS student, but, I guess in my mind, I would think someone who in a rural setting, who, has been asked to fill a pulpit for a church that's devoid of a ordained minister, and perhaps they've been an elder or something else in the church, but suddenly they find themselves facing, you know, a larger, responsibility in ministry. And so many of them experience a call to, to ordain ministry. Therefore, they have to prepare themselves. And so when they come to our summer school, say, for example, when they come summer school, many of them are kind of blank slates.
Michael:They don't maybe have never had a class in biblical interpretation, or, congregational leadership. It it it's possible. And many of them know some things. Obviously, you don't you don't live in the church for a lifetime without knowing, a lot. Maybe they know more than those of us who try to teach them, but but, so they come kind of a blank slate, but they the way the program is set up, it is designed for that kind of person so that they do not have to be uprooted from their life, their family, their most of them have a vocation.
Michael:Some of them are retired, but they have a secular vocation that they've lived in. They have a family, many of them with children. And, the program was designed so that they would not necessarily be uprooted, but they would come away for a while. And in the summer school, it's a 15 day full schedule. A person can take up to 9 classes in that's in that 15 day period.
Michael:So that's around the clock. In addition to that, we have student led worship every day, except for the weekends, and then we go to local churches, to participate. And we have fellowship opportunities sometimes late at night because classes aren't over, until, you know, 9 o'clock at night, let's say. We have a devotion early in the morning. We have a we have a midday worship.
Michael:We have sometimes, fellowship gatherings and sing alongs. So it is a packed schedule and students can it's it's it's enjoyable. It's like it's like a camp meeting and a church camp, and school all packed into 1. There's more to it than just the education. There's that fellowship, getting to know one another, the camaraderie.
Michael:All of that is part of that, what we think of as the positive experience. But then, once school is over and we try to keep one eye open and as we make our way back to the real world, life is still there. And so they have to go back to their home, to their church, to their jobs, and get right back into their routine and somehow manage to figure out how to do the assignments. Because that classroom is fun. We absorb it.
Michael:We're hearing we're hearing things we haven't heard before. We think about it. We're interacting with students and faculty. And then, you know, the the hard part really is when you get home. So we have staggered deadlines throughout the remainder of the year so that students have a lot of time.
Michael:We we give probably more time than most people can imagine. In an academic setting, you you never have, for example, 2 months, 4 months, 6 months. But it's necessary, it's necessary for them to be able to reflect and to actually put into practice some of the things that they have learned and reflect on that return, either written paper or some project report, or something that, the instructor would assign. So, I don't know if I even hit hit on your question, but that's a typical, past student would be coming away for the summer or some other. We have weekend schools and we have online classes.
Michael:But then the real work is in the context of life grinding out. And so, it is not infrequent that we get a request for an extension. I've this is the 2nd day of February. Yesterday was a deadline, and I received at least a half dozen, requests yesterday for, extensions. And, we try to we try to have deadlines, and we try to mean it when we say you're you know, you need to work here.
Michael:And we also have enough flexibility if a person has any reasonable, reason why they have been hindered in finishing TJ Malinovsky's class. We usually try to have a lot of grace in that because life is difficult and grinds. We have a policy that a person can only go 12 months for any reason, even if there's some really great reasons, healthy issues, etcetera, etcetera, without a magnanimous decision somewhere along the way to waive that requirement. 12 months is a deadline. It's a it's a firm fixed deadline.
Michael:And after that, the student will need to take the same class over again. And my thinking on that is that by that time you have really forgotten whatever it is that you have been exposed to in classroom. And, I I speak for myself after 12 months, if if I haven't assimilated all that information, put it together, it's it's probably gone forever. And we have we do have students that take classes, 2 or 3 times in order to get through.
T.J.:So I've been thinking about this question deeply recently, and you have a pulse on the academic world more than I do. What does preparing for ministry mean, that phrase? And what does that look like in the 21st century? So could you define preparing for ministry? And then now, what does that look like?
T.J.:Well, currently and really in the last 15, 20 years?
Michael:Wow. That that that's a good question. I've already been thinking deeply about it. That that that's a good question. And and that
T.J.:Here, I'll give you some context because this may help you out. Because I I feel like, you know, the educational process is we even use the word training or we used the another phrase is how to be a minister. And, you know, I think a lot of times we approach it like very pragmatically, very practically, you know, the nuts and bolts.
Michael:Mhmm.
T.J.:And I think there's a deeper layer to preparing for ministry. And and and what does that imply? I in terms of of does that touch on those philosophical questions of what is my purpose? What is my meaning? What is the meaning of life?
T.J.:What is the meaning of death? Because the I mean, that's a commonality that every human being carries with them. And I I think we can answer that philosophically. We can answer that theologically. But then that carries us back to preparing for ministry, preparing for for what?
T.J.:What does that mean? Yeah. From your perspective, I don't have an answer to my question. I'm just posing it. Yeah.
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. I I prefer to be the interviewer than the interviewee. Just just ask really good questions, and that's it. I am probably I'll probably be the worst person to answer this question, in one way, and that is I do not consider myself a theologian only in the sense that everybody who names Jesus is a theologian.
Michael:You know, we have to think theologically about everything that we do whether we call it that or not. But I don't really I'm not, I'm not deep into philosophy or or or theological, I guess, the machinations of theological stuff. That's that's probably the best I can say it. I am a practitioner. I've been a pastor all my life.
Michael:It's what I know. It's what I believe. It's what I'm committed to. So it's you know, as as disappointing as my answer might be, I have lots to say about it, but as as disappointing as it might be, I have been in trouble more than once for using interchangeably the term training, because I I do think there's a sense of expectation from the church, and and it doesn't always jibe with what theological education is. But if we don't if we don't prepare people to minister in the settings or the real congregations or the lead congregations to minister in the world, it doesn't really matter how we have you know or other things we have done along the way that have really helped them reflect on the meaning of life, you know, what's purpose.
Michael:So, so I've been blessed to be and to say, with the program of alternate studies, we are able to focus a couple of ways that's not true with all theological education. We can focus on the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. We're not training anybody to do anything other than serve in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Presbytery send us candidates. They have to have a 2 thirds majority vote to be trained.
Michael:I'm gonna use that term because to be trained to be educated. Doctor Buck is doctor Buck and I used to go back and forth about that. He he did not like me using the term trained, and and he's certainly much more, much more wise and and theologically astute than I am. But, but my sense of what we do is something like that. They are these students have been hindered from a formal education.
Michael:They are required to have, without special permission, they're required to have at least 60 college credit hours of undergraduate. That's requirement. And and that's to meet our constitutional understanding for Cumberland Presbyterian. I'm all of a map, I know, but I'll come back. Maybe.
Michael:Our constitutional requirements envisions that they would have a bit that that persons who are going into ordained ministry to have a good understanding of the world we live in, in geography and and math and sciences. And and and oftentimes people say, what does that have to do with? Can you just teach me how give me a Bible, teach me how to preach. Well, if you don't really understand the world, that we live in, then you can be pretty dangerous with a with a tool like the bible and a pulpit. And so, we have this that much formal education at least, and most of the time, it is required.
Michael:There are special circumstances. Just like seminaries have a, in this case, 10% of the student body up to any anytime can be a special student status. Mhmm. If they can do the you know, keep up with the work, at a master's level because I we understand the program to be a master's level, not a seminary class, but it's, it's master's level education. So we're back around then to, this idea of what what specifically can we do?
Michael:We train. That is true. We teach a person comes through the program in all of her studies, knows how to moderate a session when they graduate. That's just practical. They better know.
Michael:I mean, I'm sure there are exceptions out there. I didn't do I didn't fix that one, whichever one that yeah. They know, you know, they know some blocking and tackling, some some basic stuff. Yeah. But I hope, and I don't think we've really done our job, unless we have also taught them to think, you know, critically and, and as I said theologically about the world, not just take everything for granted.
Michael:We don't and and it's it's not infrequent that I, you know, have somebody say I don't like the way they I've been challenged in this class, etcetera, etcetera. I don't like the theology of this professor. They're they're too far left or too far right. And I I haven't from the first day before I ever started with this program, I have been saying and I continue to say it. If you get to the end of your educational journey and what you already knew and already believed has not been challenged, then you need to ask for your money back, and and we'll give it to you because we haven't done anything.
Michael:If we don't challenge that's how we grow. It's the same you know? So you're not gonna when you come to the end, you're not gonna agree with everything that you've heard anybody say during the whole program. I hope you don't because you're unique, But, but you have been challenged, and you have been, what I hope, been required to see how someone else could come to a different understanding than the one you have come to. And to me, TJ, that changes the tenor of the church.
Michael:It gives us a a way to work together in a in a very diverse situation. So
T.J.:Just pondering that on on, you know, preparing for ministry, what does that mean and and how many different ways can that be heard? And then pragmatically, what does that look like now with in the 21st century, whether in terms of academics and education? Yeah. And are we touching Right. As Christians, are we touching those deep points of life and death and everything in between?
T.J.:It was just a question I've been pondering, and I wanted to hit you up on it in terms of thinking about it. Yeah. And and, again, having having your feet in the academic world, I just wanted to pose it to you. Well
Michael:okay. I I can't improve on what on what I've already said about it, which I know, not very much. But, you know, when you when you broaden the the understanding to theological education, you know, I I I have been with your original question. I've been kind of focusing on the program model of studies and what it is we hope to accomplish, but but you're right. I'd also have a direct the Cumbrian Presbyterian House of Studies from Epistiological Seminary.
Michael:I teach classes there as well, and that is under the broader umbrella of theological education. That's, that's, I guess I would have to reflect more on the broader understanding. I wrestle with and I'm not by myself, I'm sure, but I wrestle with what, how to prepare anybody for for the unknown Mhmm. That is unfolding. It's our future.
Michael:You know as I mentioned, I've been in ministry all of my life. Let me tell you my favorite classroom. The moment I was teaching a doctoral ministry program class on evangelism, actually. It's on on developing congregations in the 21st century. That's what it was about.
Michael:And my favorite class probably that I've ever taught and and if anybody's had my class know I I liked it. I like anecdotes. I like to tell stories. I think a lot of truth gets told in the process of metaphor, and and maybe that's the best preparation we can do is just kinda give ourselves some something we can grab a hold of and help make sense of what we're doing. But this particular class, I I we were we were talking about what's ahead for the church.
Michael:And, I I explained to the class that I I had I like to tinker, work with my hands, and that over the years, I had accumulated a lot of tools that have I've been able to do every and I brought a big old old rusting metal toolbox
T.J.:Yeah.
Michael:That some of you may have in your garage somewhere. Kids don't even know what that is or why you would have it, but but big metal toolbox full of wrenches and pliers and the hammers and screwdrivers and all those things. And I explained to them these are tools that I had developed, you know, over the years, have been very helpful. And then I proceeded to dump the entire box into the trash can. And I said, that's where we really are.
Michael:Because everything that we have in our toolbox no longer applies in a new paradigm where you don't need these tools. You need something else, and we're we're gonna have to really figure out what that is. Mhmm. And at when the last wrench clanked in the bottom of that trash can, I don't know what it was like in I think the whole building probably just stopped in their tracks? But I know my class, demand students, and all the way through master divinity.
Michael:And I had a student and he said, doc, you're gonna have to just give me a minute. I I have to process this. And and and and and it was just quiet for a little while. It was just so quiet for a little while. And so as as dramatic as that is, I'm I'm saying still now, we don't have enough clarity about what future looks like.
Michael:And and many of the things that we have depended on in the past will not be dependable in the future in my view. And, that's all it is. It's an opinion. So so I I you know, I've got some good metaphors for what that is, but I don't have any really, I guess, sound teaching. I I've got several things I could share, but I'm still not sure if they would be valuable.
Michael:Mhmm. I I don't know.
T.J.:This this worked yesterday. This tool worked yesterday, but I'm not real sure if it will work in the situation today. I think a lot of people are that way.
Michael:Well, I think I just described the kind of an ethos of the church right now. Very, very timid and trepidatious because we don't know. It doesn't feel the same because it's not the same. I mean when I was growing up not everybody went to church, but there was a pervasive notion in the culture that everybody ought to. Even if they didn't, they sort of agreed that it's something that you do in our very Christian, world, our very Christian culture.
Michael:And as you know and as probably every listener knows, that is not the same today. It is an increasingly unchristian culture, post Christian many have talked about post Christian culture, and you can't even assume that you are talking a language that can be understood. Mhmm. You know, when you just talk about Jesus dying on the cross for it was it's just the kind of the bedrock stuff that we might all have grown up with, and and the language and all of that seems just so natural and normal. It seems like a foreign language to the increasingly unchristicoster in America and the western civilization, I guess, in general.
Michael:That's what it seems, and I am again, let me repeat. I do not consider myself a theologian or philosopher or any of those things. I I do ponder these questions, and from my perspective as someone responsible to help prepare people for that, I try my best to do that honestly. And, you know, my I did an evangelism class in in at seminary this semester or so ago, and, I don't know if they picked up anything that I had to say. But the best thing we did was attend the, future church summit online and had some wise people who have thought about these things, to share about what some of the ideas that they think we might see in the future.
Michael:And I I really felt like that might might have been the biggest takeaway of the whole class was just that moment where we all listen to people who've who who have, credentials and who were have given some deep thought to what the future might look like. And even they would say, we have no idea. We don't really know.
T.J.:Well, Michael, in the in the spirit of storytelling, do you mind sharing with me a meaningful experience that you've had with God anytime in your life?
Michael:Yeah. Well, I if you I'm I really appreciate getting that question. My my problem my hesitation is only because I I I'm not sure I can narrow it down to 1 or 2 meaningful. Of course, I I'm going to say I just read this I just read, this past week about, someone else, who had, wandered into a Cumberland Presbyterian Church at the age of 14. And, later, had was very well known, had had lots of different, very eclectic individual.
Michael:But even in public life, always pointed back to that day when at the age of 14, at a revival in a Cumberland Presbyterian Church, God became very real, to them and and their life was changed after that. So my experience of coming to know Jesus was be the most significant without a doubt spiritual experience, and I've had a I've had a few. But, as a young boy in a in a small Cumberland Presbyterian Church, rural South Arkansas, white, clapboard, tall steeple, I just described every common Presbyterian church in the universe. I first came to hear about a God who loved me and who was worthy of my love back. And and, and I've you know, there are a lot of ways I can say it as an adult, but at the time, what I understood clearly is that, I needed to have Jesus part of my life.
Michael:I wanted to love and serve that Jesus and I made a commitment to do so and it has been transformative. I can't imagine where my life would be had I not said yes to Jesus when I think that was an invitation clearly from Jesus. And and then the nurture within the common Presbyterian Church for the rest of my life still is is the way God has helped to shape that call, which is, you know, a call that every Christian has, a call to say yes to Jesus and love and serve, follow that Jesus. And that's I have done it falteringly for 58 years.
T.J.:You had you had mentioned that, you experienced a a call and urging to ministry pretty early in life. Mhmm. You know, looking over the course of your life and your faith, how has it changed? How has your faith, your relationship with God changed over the years?
Michael:Well, I almost have to put in in the context of another significant story and a significant way God intervened, in my life. That now I don't tell this very often, so, might might be a a little difficult to get off to get in get in touch with all of it.
T.J.:Let me get adjusted in my seat. Okay.
Michael:So where everybody adjusts yeah. Everybody adjust your seat just a little bit. So, having been called it, I was 12 years old. I experienced what I consider one of only a couple of visions that was deep enough spiritual experience that that I would call them, vision. And and that call was simply a call.
Michael:What I saw was, was a world that was going the wrong way and a few people who were traveling in the opposite direction. And I wondered why were they what's the deal? And and and I heard an audible voice, in a 12 year old mind anyway. I heard a voice that was so clear to me that it was the voice of God that I have never doubted that until this present moment. And the voice simply said, you know, nobody told them there's a better way, and I want you to tell them.
Michael:And that was my call of ministry. I wasn't in church at the time. I was with some youth doing preparation for a service we're gonna do. There wasn't church service. No invitation was given.
Michael:Didn't you know, no no pressure wasn't applied. I just it happened. And so, sometime later, I stood before my little church and, I said explained what had happened. And and I said if I live the entirety of my life and only one person hears and turns away from the destruction and toward the life that's offered in Christ, then I will consider my life, the entirety of it, worth living. Well, that didn't change.
Michael:That's never changed until the present moment. But there have been moments where I have doubted my own ability. You know, I've I've had a lovely and wonderful fruitful ministry, mostly predominantly, quality relationships and congregations that I've been a part of. But I did go through a very low ebb in my personal life. I had some tragic deaths that were mal timed and lots of other personal trauma, relational trauma, etcetera, going on in my life which waylaid me a bit.
Michael:And when when my older brother who was just a year and a half older than me was was killed in a tragic accident, I was his pastor and it's my job to tell his little 4 year old that daddy wasn't coming home and and to offer words of comfort, to his parents who happen to be my parents, who all were part of the church. And, and I did all of that, but but that triggered a depression in me, a deep anger and depression. Took me a long time. I've written about this before, but took me a long time, to get through that. And, and most of the time, nobody knew.
Michael:You know? I'm good at keeping the surface okay. I bring all that up simply to say during that period of time, there's I had some serious questions about whether whether I could, adequately continue, to to to offer words of hope week after week from the pulpit, and and to minister adequately to families in crisis and all the things that we do as ministers. So that's some self doubt. I guess that would be a best way to say that during that period of time.
Michael:And I I I would love to tell the whole story, but we we'd have hours, and you you'd have to do a lot of editing and get that there. Let me let me just say that the way I tell it is that I I went into that experience with childlike faith, and I think everybody can identify. When I was growing up in that little church, my brother alongside me, we made our professions of faith on that same day in 1964. And we went separate ways along the way, and, and then I came back to be his pastor and, you know, the pastoral thing, happened. And when he died, suddenly, the day before we dedicated a new building we've been working on for quite a while, he the last thing he ever did in life was he laid the carpet.
Michael:That was what he did for a living. He put the carpet in the new church, worked until 7 o'clock on the morning of, Sunday so that we could celebrate and have the grand opening, etcetera. And then he died at dawn the next day on a Monday. A tragic terrible unimaginable accident. Well, when that when that happened, my childlike faith, which I thought if you believe the right things and did the right things, everything was going to work out.
Michael:She was. You know? I was not prepared. I was not prepared as many people in our churches are not prepared for tragedy, for something not working out, inexplicable not working out. And when I came out on the other end of that long, long journey of introspection, reflection, I I now have what I call a grown up childlike faith.
Michael:I, you know, I know that God is author of all things. I trust God implicitly. My entire being, I believe Jesus is my savior. I am not the least bit, schizophrenic, anxious about about my relationship with God through these who never have been really. That that that was never that was never really an issue, although I had some words that I said to God wouldn't say to to nice people.
Michael:But we had but we had those words, and, you know, God's a lot better handle that than than most people would be. And so my grown up childlike Faith knows that it rains on the just and the unjust, that things things in life happen. In fact, I think that it's helpful. It's helpful for me and for many people than the unchurched increasingly unchurched world to think about that it's just as likely that nothing good ever happens than it is that nothing bad ever happens. And so when something bad happens, people say, well, it's you know, there can't be a God because God wouldn't allow this kind of suffering to take place.
Michael:That's just the opposite. In my my view is the fact that anything good ever happens helps it gets a spark, but it's a spark of hope for me enough that I can hang my hat on that. My faith is in that reality where God brings something good where it doesn't have to exist. And and so, you know, that's, the childlike faith is still intact, but it's grown up childlike faith. I'm I'm not naive about bad things that happen.
Michael:Mhmm. So
T.J.:Well, we've talked about, the past a little bit. I like asking guests this question. Where do you see god working in your life today?
Michael:I'm 66 years old, and, I I have I have been I think for the entirety of my life, I have been where I'm supposed to be. I have I have served in rural churches and suburban churches and small town churches, not many. I was a new church, church planter once upon a time. And in each of those instances, I I can honestly say I feel like I am where I'm supposed to be. I always felt that way.
Michael:And when I came to direct program model studies, I felt exactly that same way. It's just where it's just where I'm supposed to be. I think, I am and and when I say gifted, I mean that in the most humble way. But God has given me certain gifts that have that have placed me in in a place that where they can be used. And, so this is that place for me right now.
Michael:I'm where I'm supposed to be. And I feel that in the program of all the studies and now in some expanded responsibilities. I feel like I'm where I'm supposed to be. And God has used all those, you know, those experiences, some of which I talked about here. God has used the the gifts and the training for that matter.
Michael:Mhmm. I've been I've been privileged to I was a University of Arkansas grad. I'm an alum, a Razorback. I can call the hogs for you if you want me to. And and and then Memphis Seminary, and then I'm I I spent some time at Fuller Seminary doing some work in a DMIN, and then I graduated from Columbia Seminary.
Michael:So I've had a wide variety of educational
T.J.:experiences.
Michael:And that, in my view, has just sort of helped along the way prepare me for where I am now. I've I've seen a lot of a variety of educational experiences, and, I believe I'm thankful to have had all of those and my pastoral experience. When I've when I came to this, I'd already had over 40 years of pastoral experience, mostly positive. And I I know that's hard for a lot of folks believe because it's not always that way.
T.J.:Right. Right.
Michael:It's not always that way. And and that does not intend to gloss over the fact that in all those positive experiences, there were some atrocities. There's some bad bad times, difficulties, and I have played those stories too. But, I don't know. I know it's a long answer to say.
Michael:I think I'm working in my life right now and directing this program, and I, at 66, feel like I still have something to contribute. And, the day I don't or that my church doesn't or that my hierarchy in the seminary doesn't feel like I have anything to contribute, then, that'd be okay. I'm okay.
T.J.:Michael, let me ask you the question the same question in a different way. For somebody who is nominally connected to a faith or passing knowledge, maybe won't even is not able to acknowledge the divine. But still you came across them and they said, this god that you believe in and follow, how would you articulate that in terms of I see god working in my life, I see god working in the world today in in these ways? It's the same question, but it's a different type of listener, or maybe the question is posed from a different person. Yeah.
T.J.:Well We we talked about
Michael:stripping kind
T.J.:of broke through. We talked about stripping kind of the language and and in terms of being able to articulate to others, hey. This is this is my limited understanding of the universe that I'm a part of. And
Michael:But but in the posting of that question, just that way, you have really hit, I believe, on my understanding of our bearing witness to Christ in in some way. In my limited understanding, I am happy to share with you that this is what I have experienced in my life. I believe that God has been miraculous and I the the, you know, we do we don't have any shared meaning at all, we we we just don't. But but but I'll be happy, to share with you the stories where I have seen God at work. Mhmm.
Michael:You know? And then, by the way, I'm very comfortable if you're if you just wanna seek after that. And and there are different ways, DJ, to be more you know, to kinda get more poignant about it. There there are different ways that we, we can share our faith. But I think I honestly believe this is this is Michael.
Michael:This is not written in a textbook anywhere. I honestly believe that in this day and time, whatever we do, unless we approach it from the standpoint of humility and we do not have all the answers, this is what faith has been for me, then and we are clanging cymbals, and we're not really getting a hearing in this unchurched culture. And in that regard, you didn't ask me, but you just you just you sort of triggered for me something that I think your listeners may really appreciate. If they don't, that's okay too because I really appreciate it.
T.J.:Go on.
Michael:I have in my desk drawer I'm at my office, but this is it's in my desk drawer, but, it's a letter that I received, well, I don't know what the year it would be. It would be in 1983, from someone who was my best friend at that time. When I I was pastor at the Frasier Church, in Memphis, and I was a seminary student. And it just so happened that, Tops Barbecue, it had has a little place right there on the corner where the church property is still there, and the church is still there. But I would, in the middle of the morning sometime, I would go down and and have coffee with a group of, usually, men that would gather in there every day.
Michael:They didn't open for lunch until 11 o'clock, but they opened up and let these let us come in and and sit in their booths and drink coffee. And I I was introduced to a gentleman there, a big burly fireman. And, out of for whatever reason, he seemed to take a liking to me, and I I liked him a lot. His name was Jack, and I they began to take me fishing. These guys, that was their normal route.
Michael:They gather in the coffee shop in their off days, but fishing was their predominant thing that they wanna do. He was a fireman, so he worked 24, and he was off 24. And then after 3 of those, he was off 3, 4 days in a row. And so had a lot of opportunity. And so they started and they they taught me how how to, how to catch a crappie and a few other things like that, but we we became good friends.
Michael:Now I I just have to tell a story. There was there came an occasion. I came an occasion where he came to me and he said now these guys were I think they would just be self described roughnecks. They they they they were anything but what you would anticipate walking in your church on Sunday morning. Language wise and a few other things, you know, they had no concept really.
Michael:They weren't they had no real warmth toward God or church or any of those things. And so the day came when he asked me. He said, we're going to go camping. We have a little cabin, and we're going to spend 3 days, and we're going to fish. And I wanna invite you, it's my guest, to come with us.
Michael:But he said, I want you to know that we live and let live. And I would be personally offended if you went down there and you tried to tell some of my buddies how they ought to live their life. And they're not gonna try to tell you how you ought to live yours. I had no idea what all that meant, and he could not have possibly known that I was dancing a jig on the inside. How happy I was that I was finally gonna have a place where I was not on duty.
Michael:Yeah. Because everywhere else, there were expectations for clergy, and it was it was a relief to me. And I I lived up to my end that I think. I didn't try to tell anybody how they ought to live their life, and they certainly lived up there. They didn't try to tell me, but but we became friends.
Michael:And and so Jack became my best friend, and over a long period of time now I'll I'll I'll say that I probably might have missed a lot of opportunities, but I never sat down with Jack and said, Jack, by the way, you need to straighten out your life and come to the savior. I I've got a I've got a plan over here. I've I've done that with some other people. It hadn't you know, sometimes it's been used by God and sometimes it has not, but I didn't do that with that. We just were friends.
Michael:We stayed friends. And the day I decided to leave this church, went back to my home church, Monticello. When I graduated from seminary, he was the first one that I taught, and what I didn't know is how hard it would be for him. He ended up in the hospital, had a nervous breakdown, and he wouldn't see me. I went in to see him, and he wouldn't see me.
Michael:So I left under those circumstances, and then I got this letter. And I there's places that I could read from, but it it just says, just a short note to say, I'm very sorry the way I acted the last time I saw you. I just hurt so much to see you. And then he says I'll be looking to see you, but he said this, this note is staying with my tears. And it was.
Michael:It is. You can see the tears there. And he said, it's really been a rough battle, but the best I'm reading from my friend, Jack. The best the very best part is that through you, I found Jesus Christ in my heart, and I couldn't even tell you until now. Right?
Michael:It is my most valuable possession, this letter. What a joy. I didn't do or say anything, DJ. The Lord just used that friendship. And and I I I think because I'm gonna preach on a little evangelism this Sunday, from, Luke 5 where where Jesus bars their boat, makes them fishers of men, tells them they can become fishers of men, and it just you know, sort of brings maybe I'll bring my letter into the pulpit.
Michael:I I do it on occasion, special occasions, but that that seems it. You know, Jesus hung out with them and they observed Jesus, and, and it was powerful. It was powerful enough to bring many people to believe in him as he was helping them catch fish. I mean, get that's it. And that's it.
Michael:And so, there are other times when, you know, some kind of a formal, didactic of here's what you need to do to be saved kind of thing takes place. But for me, a lot of my life in ministry has been relational and I think that's the key to helping people want to know a God that really cares about them if you care about them. I mean, you can't really make the case. You really can't make the case that God cares about you if you're not willing to care. You can't make that case.
T.J.:And in that relational aspect, there's that level of trust that is built in the interpersonal relationship. Being able to trust you and you being able to trust me. Yep. Yeah. Yep.
T.J.:Michael, thank you for sharing.
Michael:Well, yeah, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. What, I I did his funeral, by the way. I did Jack's funeral some years ago. A few years ago, he had a stroke, and he he passed away.
Michael:And, man, it it was so wonderful to be able to stand beside that casket and say, I'll I'll see you on the other side, old friend. I read his letter. It was the first time any of his family ever knew he'd written that letter. Mhmm. And and so just what a joy, to to to just be a big part of somebody's life.
Michael:No. You got you can have the rest of the world. You can have it all. And and I I said to my church when I was 8 years old or 12 years old that I will consider my life very much worth of living if only one person hears and turns away from destruction and turns to life. Brother, my life has been blessed.
T.J.:Even with the trials and the struggles
Michael:Sure.
T.J.:The joys seem to outweigh.
Michael:You get them both. Yeah. You get them both. You get to choose which one you pay attention to, I guess.
T.J.:Michael, if folks wanted to reach out to you, find you, talk more with you, learn more about the program of alternate studies and just a for a sidebar here, the House of Cumberland Presbyterian Studies,
Michael:you talked about that. Really well, but
T.J.:Okay. Well, correct me, but in that correction, also educate me of what that is.
Michael:Sure. The director of the program of alternate studies, which is the, you know, sort of the primary mover of all things, although my assistant, Karen Patton, is really the primary mover of all things. All PAWS students will teach you the one to go to. But but this director's position, directs the program. It has been.
Michael:I'm the 4th. There have only been 4 directors, and it is placed with the seminary. From a lot of studies has always been placed with Memphis Theological Seminary for administration, from its very beginning. And so I have an office at the seminary, and my understanding of the role that the director program owner studies, it's for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. So that's I understand my my role.
Michael:I have a church that I, that I try to meet the needs of for this alternate education. So, but I do have I have an office in the seminary, and I and I answer to the board of trustees, make an annual report to the board, well, it's more than annual, 2 or 3 times a year, report to the board of trustees, and and also report through the board of trustees to the general assembly of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, to kinda get to to stay in constant contact to make sure that we're, we're trying to address the needs that the church understands that it has. And, and so I, I have an office. You can email me, mqualls, mqualls@memphis seminary, 2 it's all one word, memphis seminary dotedu.
T.J.:Does the program of alternate studies and the well, I've I've butchered it. You haven't corrected me yet. The House of Cumberland Presbyterian Studies,
Michael:Do they have
T.J.:a website that you point people to?
Michael:Both of them. Well, there are 2 things. The the at the seminary, if you go to the Memphis Seminary, Memphis Theological Seminary, website, You we there are there's a page for the program of all of the studies. You can find it easily on the introductory page. In fact, if you're wanting to be a student, there's a there's a series of different programs that you can do.
Michael:Program of all of the studies is one of those that you can look at. It has the basics of what the program does and and who qualifies and and that sort of thing, as student. And, and so also the Cumberland Presbyterian House of Studies.
T.J.:Thank you. I've been waiting for that correction.
Michael:CPHS, Cumberland Presbyterian House of Studies has a page there as well. And we both we have for both those programs, we also have Facebook page, and, that's sometimes, for many people, an easier way to communicate. But, Culinary Percian House of Studies is relatively new. I say maybe 3 years old at this point and still a work in progress, but its design, was for seminary students. The the notion I have to say this, I guess most of my viewers might be coming over to Sharon, although I've really done a poor job of addressing the that community that you keep referencing that does not have the language or the history to share with us.
Michael:And I'm not very good at that. But, anyway, common presbyterians will, will know that students come from all over the church to attend Memphis Theological Seminary, and our form for ministry over a period of 3, 5, 7 years, however long it takes these days to get a degree, and are often segregated, from the church or the church is segregated from students. You got the church oftentimes doesn't even know they have students in Memphis Theological Seminary. There are 25 currently enrolled in spring semester, various different programs. That's that's a pretty good number.
Michael:That's 13% of the student body. Memphis Theological Seminary is a an ecumenical mission of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. I am uniquely connected to and and interested in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church part of that. One of the things that the seminary does, not the only thing, one of the things seminary does is minister, prepare, as we talked earlier, prepare women and men who are called for ministry in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And so Cumberland Presbyterian Studies is designed because we don't have.
Michael:As when I was going to seminary here, almost a 100% of the faculty were Cumberland Presbyterian. That has changed over the last 3 or 4 decades. And, and now there's not as much Cumberland Presbyterian emphasis or influence. And so our students need to be connected in our unique Cumberland Presbyterian heritage and connected to the church at large. So the so as the common fair trade house of studies, offers luncheons and events where we invite in leaders from across the denomination or we provide some unique program for our common Presbyterian students and the church at large.
Michael:We often invite common Presbyterians who are nearby enough. We're talking pre COVID again, soon it'll be post COVID, I hope, onto the campus for these events so that they can interact with their students. Their students can interact with them and remain connected to the church and and to that historical theology and and history that makes us unique. There is also an academic component of that, and the notion is that the director of the Cumberland Presbyterian Studies is also tasked with trying to make sure that the Cumberland Presbyterian courses that are required are made available and offered in a timely manner. We don't have them every semester, but while students are going through toward graduation, if they're coming from the junior student center, we need to make sure that at least the minimal coming from the junior courses are offered.
Michael:And then we're we're it's in the planning stages, but we're trying to develop courses that are specific, that would be specifically helpful to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and to the ministers that are going back to the Cumberland Presbyterian context. So just as a couple of three quick examples, rural ministry, something that hasn't been particularly emphasized in in recent years. We are in an urban setting, but uniquely positioned because you go any direction and you're in a rural setting in just a minute. It's just short period of time. And most of our students, it's certainly true with our common Presbyterian students, are coming from a rural setting, and in all likelihood, we'll go back into a rural setting.
Michael:So we're thinking about what what kind of of ministry can we offer that will help them in that context. That's that's in the planning process. Evangelism, something that our church is very interested in, and we've been pretty careful not to call evangelism evangelism because it has all kinds of negative connotations for a lot of people. Right. I won't bore you with another story, but it it it it has a negative connotation for many people in part because of how it has been practiced or understood.
Michael:Mhmm. So so but we we have to figure out how can we enable is not the right word, but how can we help our Cumberland Presbyterians, to prepare to be effective evangelistically or help congregations learn evangelistic effectiveness. As soon as we figure out a better word, we'll use that one.
T.J.:Face sharing.
Michael:Face sharing. That'll work. And and so that's in the works. And some other classes, you know, this the to put the common Presbyterian Church in the historical context of the reformed churches in general, that would be a a class that we we could offer that. So the idea would be that we'll have we'll have enough classes that, meet the qualifications.
Michael:These are uniquely helpful to Cumberland Presbyterian so that a student entering as a 1st year student could elect or choose to emphasize, and get a certificate in Cumberland Presbyterian Studies by taking these as their electives, along the way. Same basic education, but then an emphasis on these areas that are uniquely helpful to Cumberland Presbyterian. So that's that's where we're at our thinking. Go ahead.
T.J.:Alright. And so that's a peek into the future of the House of Cumberland Presbyterian Studies.
Michael:No? Cumberland Presbyterian House of Studies.
T.J.:Alright. I just think of a physical plant or a physical space. Well, thanks for correcting me. The words are there. They're just kinda jumbled up.
Michael:There's a
T.J.:house. There's studies. There's a couple of Presbyterian's there.
Michael:Yep. Yep.
T.J.:Michael, thank you so much for letting me peer into part of your life and your faith journey, the insights that you shared about the program of alternate studies and and preparation of ministry, and the encouragement that you bring to the church and to the students, and to to the denomination and beyond. I appreciate your thoughts and your time.
Michael:Thank you, TJ. I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you and the church at large and the world at large.
T.J.:And thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with me on the next journey down Cumberland Road.
