Mike Wilkinson - To Surrender & Convey Hope
You are listening to the Cumberland Road podcast, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. I'm in conversation with guest reverend Mike Wilkinson. He is the minister at the Knoxville First Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Tennessee. In our conversation, we cover wide range of Mike's life, the time that he became a Christian, his calling into ministry. We talk about him being endorsed as moderator for General Assembly in 2022. We dive deep into understanding his ministry and seeing it as a message of hope, what it means to surrender, and capturing the ability to be able to listen and to learn from others. You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and here is my conversation with Mike Wilkinson.
T.J.:Hello, Mike Wilkinson, and welcome to the Cumberland Road podcast.
Mike:Thank you, TJ, for inviting me to be a part of this, I think.
T.J.:Well, to to be determined as we dive deep into our conversation, The first time I met you or one of the most early memorable times that I met you was actually probably about 10 years ago, and it was in Alabama. You were serving a congregation there. And that particular church really opened my eyes to the wonderful dynamics of what it means to be Cumberland Presbyterian and the diversity within that particular congregation and the worship and the fellowship. It's one of those churches that my hope is that we can replicate that kind of atmosphere and welcoming and the desire to to serve Christ. And I wanted to start our conversation with what is it like to serve a congregation that covers a theological spectrum and ideological spectrum, and yet you have all these wonderful disciples and lovers of Christ?
Mike:Christ Community Church in Millbrook, Alabama is the congregation of which you speak. And, that church is probably now 15 years old. It was a new church development of grace Presbyterian. I was on the board of missions and even on the task force that oversaw the implementation of it was the second pastor, there. And it is what I believe to be the most unique congregation in the American Cumberland Christian Church, anyway.
Mike:And that is unique in its diversity, racially diverse, at least at that time, 30% African American, but it was politically diverse. We had, folks who've been part of the tea party movement and, and folks that I would at the time would have called a wall lights. We had, ex military people, a lot of retired military people in the area with the air force base there. And we had, leftover sixties hippies. We we had we had people who had motor homes that cost more than my house, and we had people living in in mobile homes, that they could barely get by and drawing food stamps.
Mike:Anyway, you want to spell diversity for whatever normal means to down syndrome children. We had it all. And yet when they walked in that door, the only thing that mattered was they love Jesus. And it was a phenomenal experience to pastor that, and And it wasn't just when they were in that door. These people hung out with her with each other.
Mike:You know, they were in each other's homes and, and they might have talked politics in their homes. I don't know. Not when I was there, but they they did in the church and they just melded together. And the unique thing about that and and we grew like crazy over over when we were there, but I could tell by looking at the face of a first time visitor, whether they'd be back or not. Some people walked in the door and this is what I've been looking for all of my life, and they were home.
Mike:And they were gonna be a part of us and did become part of us. And others walked in and they were scared to death because they've never seen such unity in diversity. It was just it was a wild time, and it was I don't know if I will ever again have the freedom in the pulpit that I had there. Link topic, it didn't matter. You you you just preached your heart and people responded.
Mike:This one would sound crazy, but I preached a 20 point sermon one time. Tithing. Ten reasons not to. Sorry. Very short.
Mike:And 10 reasons too. So it went all that. It was probably 45 minutes for them. Twenty point sermon on time. At the end of the service, 2 men in their forties received Christ as our savior.
Mike:I didn't talk about salvation, but the spirit of God was such
T.J.:a mirror.
Mike:That it just happened. We've had people join in the middle of the service. They'd interrupt, you know, had I joined this place? And we take them in and finish home.
Mike:You know?
Mike:It it was it was a great place. And I'm glad I'm glad you felt that and you were there too.
T.J.:Yeah. As an as a visitor and as an outsider looking in, one of the things that really, was telling for me and informative that this particular congregation wasn't, advertising or selling self as this unique and diverse congregation. It was just just kind of a very colorful and rich and complex, group of people who were there to worship God. What was it like when you were there to minister with the natural tensions that come with such different thoughts and beliefs. And even in terms of the growth of a disciple, you know, you're in different stages as you are a Christ follower.
T.J.:And that congregation exemplified that with, you know, long term disciples of Christ and those who are brand new to the faith?
Mike:Yes. Again, back to the diversity. Any way you could spell diversity, we qualified. What it was like, particularly when I first arrived was liberating. Again, I mentioned the freedom in the pulpit, but it was just liberating.
Mike:You got to be, everybody got to be who they are in Christ. There weren't wasn't any mold that you're trying to shape your folks into. It was this freedom in Christ. Now by freedom, I don't mean license to sin and all that kind of stuff. I'm just talking about the freedom to be who God created you to be.
Mike:And, if that meant you got excited in worship and you raise your hands or, or you, you shouted amen or whatever, or you were totally quiet. It didn't matter. It didn't matter. We had a ton of kids, 40 or 50 kids, elementary school kids and younger, every every Sunday. And it was it was a contemporary music service. Mhmm.
Mike:And, some of the special needs kids would get so excited during the music that we almost had a mosh pit of these 6, 7, 8 year olds down there jumping and exciting to to because spirit of Christ is in the room. Mhmm. And, you know, her 90 year olds, and, yes, even in the contemporary settings, new church, we had an abundance of of senior citizens. They didn't care. In fact, they thought it was wonderful.
Mike:Would they have ever raised their hand, clapped, or jumped? No. But they told me it was wonderful. It's the so that that mutual respect of each other was a was a very freeing thing. And like I say, I could tell them the looks of folks walked in, but the where they locked in and they didn't.
Mike:Let me tell you. Freedom's a scary thing.
T.J.:Yeah.
Mike:Freedom. You know, at least half the folks came didn't come. But here's another neat thing about that that place. And I know we've been named to spend so much time at Grace Community Church, but it it is phenomenal place and still is. So I've been gone 8 plus years now.
Mike:We participated in a local weekly food ministry there in town. And when people would come into the welcome center, we would give them food, but we always sit down in individual rooms at a table or desk with the folks who come in, and we ask this question, is there anything I can pray for you about? And 99% of the time, they've they've gotten something. Occasionally, no. Not in particular.
Mike:Well, then you ask, what can I pray anyway? And, but anyhow, again, 99.9% of time, the answer is yes. Casey, somebody would say no, but not often. You didn't impose. You you you were both blind, and you're trying to pray for the needs in their life.
Mike:And dozen churches in in the community participated in this thing. And I got to listen to members of other churches tell the clients of the welcome center about grace coming to church and how you could find a home there. Mhmm. And that was exciting because they knew who we were. It was also sad because they were probably saying, I'm sorry.
Mike:You're not welcome at our church. Now that that's my interpretation of that. But Yes. They knew no matter who they were, they'd be welcome in our church, and they were. And so we had many, mixed race families and biracial children that weren't welcome in the in the African American church or the the, Caucasian church in Southern Alabama.
Mike:But they were welcoming grace, and the community knew it and supported us.
T.J.:How did your service there as a minister, how did that change your ministry? How did that enrich your ministry? How is that impacting where you are serving now?
Mike:I don't I don't know that it changed my ministry as much as it enriched my ministry to use your your second choice of word. And I'm thinking, you know, my wife occasionally, takes the crock pot and puts a chuck roast in it and some potatoes and carrots and stuff, and and, you know, you cook that and and you've got the broth. But that broth is not quite gravy. And so, you know, sometimes you may use cornstarch, sometimes flour, sometimes even a pack of ground gravy mix, but you you add that to it. And that broth is enriched into this wonderful gravy that I'd rather have than the meat and potatoes.
Mike:I'm a gravy guy. I think that's what grace community did me. It enriched me in that it it touched every fiber of my being, but it just helped me be who I am more than I was, if that makes sense. It didn't change it didn't fundamentally change me. It just allowed who I am to come to the front.
Mike:And I've always been one that tried to be who I am wherever I've been, but now I'm I am after serving there, I am more enriched than I've ever been.
T.J.:Part of that, I I would think, would be it's almost a permission giving, God giving us permission to really live and breathe the gifts and the skills that are in there and and maybe discover them for the first time. So those are rare opportunities, but wonderful nonetheless when they happen, whether you're a minister or not, just human being.
Mike:I'll say this too. It allowed me to practice what I said I believed. Mhmm. It's one thing to say you believe in in equality and diversity and and things like that, but it's another thing to live in it and have to practice it.
T.J.:Yeah.
Mike:And so that was that was the neat thing. It it allowed me to practice what I've always said I believed.
T.J.:Well, how long have you been a believer? We had a previous guest. This is a phrase I've never used before. I've heard it, but I've never used it. Are you a cradle Christian, or did you come to faith at some other point in your life?
T.J.:I'm not totally comfortable with the cradle Christian thing, but understand the context in which it's coming from.
Mike:I am definitely not a cradle Christian. The how long I've been a Christian may be debatable in your in people's mind after I tell their story. Now I thought about this a lot over the last week knowing that we would eventually get to this in in podcast. I grew up in a non Christian home. I grew up with with an alcoholic abusive father in a non Christian home.
Mike:The only thing I knew about church or Christ would have been, if I spent a weekend with either some of my grandparents, we were going to church on Sunday morning, and and that was it. Well, bad in in bible school, which leads me to my story. About 8 years old, my grandmother lived in, and that's where I am now. Bible school was taking place. This is back in the days when Bible school was 9 to 12, you know, because you had enough, stay at home moms and grandmoms that pull that off.
Mike:And, my my grandmother was the was one of the crooked ladies as every bible schools. And so, we stayed at her house all week, and so I go to bible school every day. And on Friday of that week, and I'm 8 years old, And I'm so old that campus crusades for spiritual laws was brand new. So our we had 2 ladies teach our vacation bible school class. And one of them that Friday of the of the end of bible school read through the campus crusades for spiritual laws.
Mike:And then she asked if if any of us wanna give our hearts to Christ. And me and another boy named Doug raised our hands. So she invited us to go upstairs with her to the sanctuary. And we sat down there on the, on the steps of the altar. And she said, let's pray.
Mike:Now I never prayed before. I didn't grow up. I didn't know anything about prayer. She didn't lead us in a prayer. She didn't do anything.
Mike:Few minutes of silence, she said, amen. Well, I just sat there. And she said, how do you feel? And Doug said, I feel like I've been on an airplane ride. I never been on an airplane.
Mike:She asked me. I said, me too. I feel we missed nothing. Right? So that was that was my come to Jesus moment, I think.
Mike:Several years later, I'm now 13, and we are at revival service at my grandmother's. And my mom is at mom and sister actually with me, Not my dad. He's not yet become a believer. But my mom and sister actually went because this is not after supper. Mom didn't wanna have drop us off, come back, pick us up.
Mike:She'll just stay. Right? Well, when the invitation was giving, it's just like, I let go of the pew and I'm upfront. I don't have I I don't remember walking. I don't remember anything.
Mike:I talked to the preacher and he led me in the quote unquote sinner's prayer. And as an aside, I've come to strongly dislike that notion of the sinner's prayer because it gives a lot of people false assurance. But nonetheless, he led me in the soonest prayer, and I was baptized next Sunday night. But as I got older and once I'm actually in the ministry, as I have pondered that come to Christ moment, I am convinced in my own heart that at 8 years old, without uttering a prayer, all I knew is I wanted Jesus and he touched me. And that's why 5 years later, with few opportunities to be at church in between, 5 years later, I walked that aisle because he touched me when I was 8.
Mike:And I said yes without having any of the mumbo jumbo of the prayers. So I think I've now been a Christian for 54 years, which is a long time.
T.J.:Well, that depends on perspective. Some people may say that's not long enough.
Mike:I've I've got you know, I've I have no reservations about going to heaven. I'm just not ready to get on the on the bus today.
T.J.:So in your, growing up years, and you make a profession of faith, how did that impact your relationship with your school friends, and your family and in the household?
Mike:It, the biggest thing in the in the household is is it gave me hope in the midst of hardship. It's not politically correct language anymore, but I had a heavenly father who loved me in spite of a abusive father who routinely beat me. Mhmm. That that was an awesome thing. On the side here, from the first started seminary, one of our professor, doctor Carr, would start the class by asking the student to to lead in prayer.
Mike:And I did one night, and I said something about heavenly father in in the course of the prayer. And when we went to break, 3 of my classmates, young ladies addressed me in the hall and and told me how offended they were that I called godfather. And, then proceeded to tell me that not everybody had the ideal father like you did. And I said, oh, ladies. We we gotta talk some more than you just telling me this.
Mike:I didn't have an ideal father. I had a horrible father. And there's no one I had a heavenly father who loved me, so it got me through it, and he did. And I'm not speaking to political correctness whatsoever, but that's that's me. That's what got me through that.
Mike:So knowing that made life much more bearable. And it also allowed me to forgive my dad even when it was still going on. It allowed me to pray for my dad. And my dad was 49 years old. He gave his heart to Christ.
T.J.:Were you able to be there?
Mike:I was there. You know, I've been praying for him for years, and I'm 22 years old now. And, he decided he won't go to church on Sunday night. And I'm going, Billy, tonight you wanna go? You've been off drinking.
Mike:I can spell the bear on your breath. Tonight, You wanna go to church. He did. So we got in the car and he and I and my sister, my sister was involved in church Once I once I was because she could ride with me, things like that. We went to church, and, he gave his life to Christ that night. Just smell a bit.
Mike:We had the opportunity to stop at his mom's house, my grandmother's house, on the way home, see one, and I'll never forget this. She said, Ray, I have prayed for this moment every single day of your life. So got to be there for that. None of that would've happened if if if Christ hadn't allowed me to be able to forgive and pray for him, now I prayed for him. It's very long ago from my grandmother, but Christ allowed that forgiveness to take place.
Mike:And that's a change that we remember, Luke. Mhmm.
T.J.:That's powerful, Mike.
Mike:Yeah. Well, didn't mean to cry, but I do that a lot.
T.J.:I think growing older allows us to open up a little bit more, maybe especially as males, and, be able to share our emotions and and feelings. Mike, when did you experience a call to ministry?
Mike:I'm 15 years old. I'm part of Grove Hill Baptist Church here in Knoxville that no longer exists, but part of that church. And our pastor had carried 4 of our teenagers, including myself, and that was the whole youth group. It carried us to pigeon forge to some youth rally Friday night, all day Saturday, and even in the Sunday. And at Saturday night's youth rally, I felt god calling me to preach.
Mike:And but the invitation was given. I went down. I got to tell 400 screaming teenagers and all the chaperones there that god had called me to preach at the 8:15. That's on Saturday night. Sunday morning, we did not stay for the Sunday activities because little small church didn't have no youth person.
Mike:It was just preacher up there. That's us 4. So we had to get back to in time for church. And we pulled in the parking lot and of the church, and he lived in the parshpige is what they called it. It could've should've been called a shack.
Mike:It it was it was embarrassing that a church would allow a minister to live in there. We pulled up in his 15 year old beat up station wagon. Got out. He starts walking across the parking lot to run over to the to the shack to change clothes from for Sunday school and church, and I see holes at the bottom of his shoes. And I go to rethinking what I had thought the map for.
Mike:That particular Sunday night, he had us. And on Sunday night, we had a small crowd, so he'd bring a little crowd roster down and set it on one side of the web small crowd Sunday morning too, but on Sunday night, set it on one side of the church. And he decided to let us kids tell about our trip. And so I stood up there and I him in a hall and all the lot, that God has called me into some type of full time Christian service. Surely, it doesn't mean preaching.
T.J.:Yeah. You're thinking about those holes in the shoes.
Mike:Yes. Yeah. And and I love that man even today. He's a friend today. He is, went on to be a prison chaplain.
Mike:So a prison chaplain married my wife and I. But, I don't understand why he let me get away with that, but he did. And, so but at 15, I was called. At age 32, my wife and I live in here still in Knoxville, and, we're gonna clean out the garage. I need to convert part of the garage into a playroom for little girls and, our churches have yard sale.
Mike:So we need to decide what we're gonna take to church, what we're gonna take the dump, what we're gonna keep. I do not recommend claiming out of garage with your spouse. If you are 1 as I am, throw away anything in your one like her that's a hoarder. It is a very frustrating, aggravating experience. So after a couple hours of attempting to do this, I am mad.
Mike:And I was clear. I'm going inside and watch TV. When you decide what you want to do the dump, let me know, and I'll haul it to the dump. So inside I go. Well, couple more hours go by, and she's ready me to go to the dump.
Mike:So now we're in the afternoon, late afternoon. I come out and there's, you know, shoe box full of stuff. I put it in the back of my truck and I head to the county dump to throw it in the dumpsters here within a mile and a half of our house. And I do that, and I don't wanna go back home. I'm mad.
Mike:And, so I decided I'm gonna go get me something to eat. And about 2 miles down the road, go right back by our house and, be in Farragut today, when the city of Farragut back then. There was, there's a McDonald's and there's a Wendy's and there's a Burger King and a Lone John Silvers. None of that looked good. So I turned around and went back up the highway the other way about 8 miles to Cedar Bluff area for those same four restaurants.
Mike:Now it didn't look good there either because, you know, I'm hungry, but I'm mad and I don't, you know, I can't be satisfied. I don't know. Nobody's else had been in that position. I'm sure. So I decided, well, I'm a move back home.
Mike:So I get back home and it's about 7 o'clock. And then I turned in our subdivision and I have this realization. There is a United Methodist Church in our subdivision. When our subdivision is being developed, somebody brilliantly went in there and bought series of lots that was in the very heart of it subdivision and, started a church. And someone pulling them, and I'm gonna pray a few minutes, get my head right so that we can come home, probably apologize, ignore them all too, all that kind of stuff, and not go through the night feeling like I'm feeling now.
Mike:Well, 5 hours later, although it seemed like less than 5 minutes, 5 hours later of praying somehow, and I still can't tell you today over 30 years later how, somehow, I've acknowledged my call and surrendered to the ministry this time. I was called 15, but I surrendered to 32. Now, that had come up several times over the years. You know, Lord remind me of it. I beat it down.
Mike:And as the best, oh, man, ever preacher I ever had loved me. Because I was there for work days. I was there for visitation. You name it. Teach some whatever you need, I am there.
Mike:Always saying, my guy named this enough. You know? But turns out it wasn't. And so I go to pull out of that parking lot. And I looked to the left and I see a light on at a house.
Mike:I've gotten down there. Sure enough is the house I was hoping it was. This guy was our volunteer, Sunday school your Sunday school teacher back when I was called the ministry and turned it down. Turns out that light was in the 3rd bedroom, which is now his office, got the boys had grown. He was doing a Saturday night special by vocational preacher at that same church.
T.J.:I I love that phrase. Let me let me interrupt you for a minute. For those who don't know what a Saturday night special is, which is a good thing, but tell tell listeners what a Saturday night special is.
Mike:Saturday night special is you have had no time all week, or the lord has given you nothing all week. And you are desperate for Sunday morning, and you're throwing something together. And it's already midnight, and I peck on that window at his door window of his office, and Tom comes as me. And we spend 2 more hours talking, and I'm gonna interrupt my story to tell you that not that's because it's already Sunday morning. But the following Sunday morning, I had the opportunity to preach at Grove Hill Baptist Church.
Mike:So I went in on that Sunday morning and took that choir roster, the same one, 15 years, 17 years later, carried it down to possibly the same spot in front of half the church, set it down, and picked up our call.
Mike:They went back to preach the sermon in
Mike:the pulpit. Anyway, toss to Tom for 2 hours. Now Joanna and I have now been married 10 years. She knows nothing about my call because I didn't meet her 3 years, 4 years after my call. She's nothing to cry.
Mike:I've never told another soul. Just beat that now on the inside and leave it there so nobody else can convince me to do different. 2 o'clock in the morning. I arrive home, and I'm immediately disappointed that she's not sitting on the front steps wondering where I am. This is right before cell phone for for in everybody's pocket.
Mike:So I go in and she's sound asleep in in the bed. So I sit down on the bed and she doesn't move. So I stand up and and, sit down hard. She doesn't she doesn't waiver. Yeah.
Mike:Now I stand up, get ready for bed. And as I'm gonna get into bed, I decided I'm gonna flop in this bed. I mean, I did a dive. You know? And this is no memory foam mattress.
Mike:You wanna spill your your your cup of wine. I do a dive in the bed and she'd run it. So I knew she now she's laying face down or on her belly and her head's to the side. She sort of partly cracks one eye, said you're home. I said, yeah.
Mike:He said, good. And she shuts that eye. And I said, I gotta talk to you. What? I didn't even know.
Mike:What? I said, God's called me to preach. Okay. I said, you don't understand. That means we're gonna have to sell our house.
Mike:We're gonna have to move Western and say, Miguel, school, we're gonna do all this stuff, whatever. Okay. And she's back sleep. Well, it probably took me better part of an hour to get sleep. So now it's at the 3 Sunday morning.
Mike:I wake her up at 5 o'clock so we can get ready for church. 5 o'clock, be ready for church, but I had to talk to her. So I wake her up. What are you doing? And when you get ready for church, not this early.
Mike:Well, we got to talk about what I said. Did you hear anything? I said last night, she said, yes. I said, and you're okay with it? She said, yes.
Mike:I said, what did I say? Because I know she's breaking this up. Ain't no way. She said, god's called you to preach, and we're gonna have to sell the house and move. I didn't know it at the time, but several months earlier, had already told her.
Mike:Anyway so that was my call. The next morning, I tell pastor at at the Union Cumberland here in Northwell, Leonard Turner, who, by the way, is about to celebrate his 50th year. Anyway, I I I totally learned about it. And I don't know. Within the week, I'm meeting with the committee on the ministry.
Mike:And before we ever go to the Presbyterian meeting in October, I have received the call of the church in Western Saint Charles. And, the Lord just I mean, he don't even work on Joanna. He had everything lined up and poof. There there we were.
T.J.:Wow.
Mike:I had a call in a huge delay before finally some entry to the call.
T.J.:Mike, you were talking about, your calling in the ministry. Fonus Ewing, one of our founders of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, he spoke about a call into ministry. And he said, every minister of the gospel whom god approves as such is the subject of a distinct, particular, and special internal call to responsible work. I find that very compelling. So I'm gonna lay this on you.
T.J.:Oh. What is your distinct, particular, and special call into ministry? How would you define it?
Mike:I'm always hesitant to do anything like this because I don't wanna come across as as bragging or egotistical. But I I think giving hope, giving hope.
T.J.:In, to dig deeper in what way?
Mike:Well, anywhere from a couple having relational issues and, it could be parents struggling with a rebellious child. It could be a church in in in in need of renewal. It's it's just I'm not a fetus. I always see possibilities. And and I I keep pointing out possibilities and what could be.
Mike:Now what could be requires hard work. I'm working on a sermon for Sunday now. Not doing a Saturday night special. And I've titled it teamwork, but it's about me and mine building the wall and now, you know, he had a with all these people to to work together. But when you work together, impossible things can, can take place.
Mike:And that's, that's true if it's, you know, a couple that are married and struggling or or or whatever. Does it mean it will always be perfect? No. Does it mean that sometimes that couple may not decide may decide on on divorce anyway? Possibly.
Mike:But I tried to inflict hope in in what I do.
T.J.:Well, the gospel is couched in hope. Yes. In many ways, if we are able to articulate and practice that hope, we are displaying the gospel. My little messages of hope are always incomplete and broken and cracked and blurry and but I try my best to exhibit the hope that is found in in Christ.
Mike:Amen.
T.J.:And I ask you in terms of, I think, the further along we go as Christians and back to Fonus Ewing's quote, the further along we are in ministry, we should be able to say, this is this is what I bring to the kingdom here on earth. This is the gifts and the skills that, I have been blessed with, that we have been blessed with. So I don't think it's an arrogant thing. I'm also asking about your faith journey. So, of course, you have to talk about yourself, Mike.
Mike:Well, that part you do. You ask you wanna do well. My family would say nothing.
T.J.:We were talking off mic before we got started about the, importance of of seeing and experiencing the presence of god in our life presently. And, I ask many guests on this podcast, where is god present and working in your life today?
Mike:I'm gonna first of all, give you a a pastorial answer. Alright. Is that I see god at work in our conversation.
T.J.:And and to interject, this is, First Knoxville Cumberland Presbyterian Church
Mike:Yes. Knoxville.
T.J.:In in East Tennessee.
Mike:Correct. The COVID was hard on a lot of places. It was hard on us, particularly the 7 weeks we didn't meet. But the blessings that came out of the struggle of COVID, and we are a congregation that did not lose anyone to COVID. We had several sick and infected, but we did not lose anyone.
Mike:So and that itself is a huge blessing, but we learned some things about ourselves in COVID and being forced not to meet. We learned that, hey. We kinda like getting together. We kinda like each other. We missed them, and we wanna be with them.
Mike:And so as we begin to open back up and and do things more fully, there's some things we are not yet doing that we weren't doing pre COVID and probably will not resume because as we resuming, people are asking, well, can we do this? And can we do that? We have 3 news study and fellowship groups going throughout the week, not on Sunday morning that the people ask, can I do this? And I've I've always tried to be a permission granting, you know, None of these things. We didn't go session and go, can can we have a bible study?
Mike:It's somewhat you know, we just yeah. If you wanna do it, do it. Right. And,
T.J.:And and get out of the way.
Mike:Get out of the way. And and and I but the the initiative and drive of the people is is where I see God God at work. One one of my standing prayers, and and it's part of my pastoral prayer every Sunday. And it's not meant just to be conceived words that are repeated like it's some logo, but it's, you know, Lord, make us more and more and more like Jesus every day. And I'm seeing our people become more and more like Jesus in their care for others and their nurture for others.
Mike:We're part of a food ministry here. We show up on on Saturday mornings to buy groceries, during the month of April is is is our month, and and, you know, we don't don't need enough money to buy $5,000 worth of groceries, and we go pack them up to go out. And, you know, I've got 25 people there packing groceries. Well, you need 6 or 8, but 25 is awesome, you know, because they want to do. So I see God working in the last for our people, which is my life too.
Mike:The best that's my pastorial answer. How do I see God working today in my life? He is equipping me to be a pastor of people who have hope instead of people who need to find hope. When I came here 8 years ago, Knoxville was in decline, big decline. It was struggling.
Mike:The session debated, do we continue or give fit one more try? Obviously, settled on one more try. And so I came in with my hope guns blazing. Oh, god. Oh, god is and and we we we have hope.
Mike:And we we we've seen oh, I don't want the word success. We've seen fruit come to come to bear. And, and so now it's one thing to to climb to achieve hope. It's another thing to maintain it. So he's half he's half in the show me how to maintain what we've built.
Mike:You know, football coaches particularly would tell you, it's a whole lot harder to stay on top
Mike:of the mountain than this to climb. It's a whole lot harder to stay on top of the mountain than this climbing. And that's that's that's why I think God is is working in me now. So when we have it, not that we're on top of the mountain, but, you know, we more like a stair step. You step up the level.
Mike:Let's almost better move. Where else go another one or 2. Yeah. We don't have to get all the way downstairs. We were pretty comfortable right here.
Mike:So now I gotta try to figure out how to allow God to lead me so I can lead these folks to go farther upstairs.
T.J.:Yeah. I've been thinking a lot, and this may be a North American way of in terms of achievement and setting goals and accomplishing goals. I'm wondering if that needs to be revisited, that of that arrival, that going and meeting and being at a place of destination, maybe it's more about the way and the path and the journey than the actual arrival or achievement. And, I think that conveys kind of the faith journey that Cumberland Road has is there may not be a destination, but let's talk about the journey along the way. And I really like doing this podcast to hear people's journeys and to hear transformative relationships and lives.
T.J.:That's a hard one for me to reorient my life, because it seems success is such a driving force, I think, for human beings. And you measure that success by the accomplishments or the goals. And then you you bring in multiple people, a community of faith, and to to be able to move together physically and spiritually, maybe that's the focus of the journey and not the destination. I don't know. I'm still working that out, but what you had said made me made me think about that.
Mike:Well, we are in church life, we are easily satisfied group. If, if we're under financial struggle, we're we as a congregation, we we we, we panic. Think we've gotta get us a new preacher. That's all we need and it's ever been
T.J.:it. That is really the solution.
Mike:Later, and they're still struggling. Yeah. But if things are go if if the bills are being paid, there's a few folks here. You know, we got somebody who played piano. We can tolerate bad preaching, and we're we're pretty satisfied people.
Mike:We shouldn't be. You know, if if Jesus is the vine, we're the branches, we're to be bearing fruit And, go through the spirit there. You know, Paul's 9 9 fruit there of love and joy and peace and gentleness and patience, which I have never mastered. I will be several eons into eternity probably before the patience thing But, we are to become again, back to my prayer to more and more and more like gee. That's the journey.
Mike:The journey is not to have 10,000 people attending also the first church. The journey is to become more and more like Jesus myself. And as I become more and more like Jesus, the people following me will become more and more like Jesus. Either that or they veer off and go somewhere else. Like I said about the grace community church, it wasn't for everybody.
Mike:But if you wanna become more and more like Jesus, that's the help. You know, we in the Caucasian American church, particularly here in the south, we're really good about quoting Romans 828, but we forget to go on to verse 29 and following where he tells us that the purpose of him working all things to our good is to conform us into the image of his son. God's ultimate goal for all of us is to be like Jesus. And if that's not our goal, we can even begin to get there. And it is a lifetime journey of faith.
Mike:And it's it's not that everybody's walking lockstep. We're in various stages of that thing. Now some people are just starting on the trail. They they gave their life to Christ this morning. It was over coffee where somebody was sharing.
Mike:They're at the head of the trail just getting started. Others of us, we're we're towards the end of the trail. We can almost see those pearly gates from here. And that's okay, but we're we're all along that trail. And it's it is the narrow way, but it's a wider path than most of us want to acknowledge.
Mike:You don't have to follow in my footsteps. You can walk in front of me, ahead of me, beside me, but we're all trying to be more like Jesus.
T.J.:Yeah. And if I'm not moving fast enough, just push me out of the way. I I'll get back up. I'll I'll get back up. Don't let me get in your way.
T.J.:Mike, you had mentioned the people. We've talked a lot about the people, the people of faith. What ideas, what hopes, what dreams do you have for the people, the church?
Mike:The church universal, Northwell First Church, Cameron Presbyterian Church, what question are we asking here?
T.J.:Yes.
Mike:Yeah. I knew that was gonna be your answer. Now I'm a prophet as well.
T.J.:You can address all 3. You can choose 1.
Mike:I think by and large, my answer would fit all all 3. It would it would need little tweaks at all. But several years ago, I developed a purpose statement So the congregation I was was, serving at the time, and and, it's a fourfold statement, and I'll I'll quote it here in reference to Knoxville first church that you could just do the church universal, whatever particular church, whoever's listened to us belongs to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, whatever. But for the glory of God, not so first Cumberland Presbyterian Church exist. That's the very beginning for the glory of God.
Mike:We don't we don't exist for our own self edification. We don't exist for me to have a place to work. We don't we don't exist even for you to come and worship. Now that's part of the glory of God, but we exist for his glory. So for the glory of God, not so first come to a church exists to worship Christ, to evangelize the lost, to love one another and our neighbor, and to learn more about our God.
Mike:Those four words are worship, evangelize, love, and learn. That forms acronym for WALE. My desire is for Northwell First Cumberland Presbyterian Church, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church as in the denomination, the church universal is for us to be well, to be healthy. Healthy churches naturally grow. You know, if if you have you have a a toddler not growing, you go to doctors, see what's wrong, because healthy toddlers grow.
Mike:Healthy churches naturally grow. So my desire is for every aspect of the church to be healthy, to be well. Sadly, we're not.
T.J.:Any That's
Mike:by the time.
T.J.:Any advice, any perspective that you would share that speaks to an unhealthy church, universal, specific congregation or denomination to move into the healthy realm? What would be a good first step? I I know you've alluded to through the bullet points, but where do you begin?
Mike:Surrender. Most unhealthy congregations have an unhealthy power structure. Somebody's in charge, and they wanted to go one way. Other people wanna go another way. Everybody's gotta surrender.
Mike:It's not your way. It's for the glory of God. It's not your way. So I think surrender is the first step. It's the first step for a kind for an individual.
Mike:You know, I'm I'm in in my call story. I was called at 15. I didn't surrender until I was 32. Now, does that mean God worked against me for 17 years? No.
Mike:He blessed me in unmeasurable ways during that time. My wife, my first two kids, my wife who did not hesitate to say yes, but that came. The first two kids, one of which is now our minister. He had blessed me along the way, but I never had the sense of satisfaction and fulfillment that came with surrender. Now what are we working for when we won't surrender?
Mike:We're working for our own happiness, our own satisfaction, our own way. But the answer is not family making it by do what we want. The answer is found in surrendering to Christ and that him works. So I think the the first thing is is to surrender. And in our American culture, that's a hard thing to accomplish.
Mike:It may be tough to do in other places. I don't know. I've never lived there. I've visited a lot of them, but I've never lived there. So I imagine human nature period is hard to surrender.
Mike:But in our culture here, for we pride ourselves on being rugged in the individualist and the captain of our own destiny, That's the best way I know to live in a stressed out world. And, that's what we do live in, by the way. Just look around. But, surrender.
T.J.:I say this with humor and with, seriousness. You have surrendered or been nominated for moderator of the 101st, no, I'm sorry, 100 and 91st General Assembly this year. As we speak, you have had either the privilege or the detriment of running unopposed. So in terms of thinking of a campaign speech or moderator speech, what gifts, what skills would you bring to this role if you were elected?
Mike:I have pondered that and wondered if I have any. And I have not began working on any any speech either. Let me first of all say that I'm honored beyond measure to be to be endorsed, not technically nominated yet till we get to the floor general assembly, but be endorsed by my prescriptive, the very prescriptive that ordained me all those years ago. Oh, frustrated. You should know better.
Mike:I think what I can offer is moderator, and and and let me back up again. That's that's not a position I sought. I didn't ask anybody to endorse me. I was called and asked by doctor Thomas Campbell if if he if he could endorse me. So it's it's not something I was really aspiring to per se.
Mike:And and my philosophy has been I will serve for asked if possible. So Mhmm. I I told him yes. And and so but I think what I can offer is the ability to listen to all sides of an issue. Now do I have some predetermined values?
Mike:Yes. But one of my values is I have to listen to others all the way. That's something that only Christ could teach me because you've never met a more pig headed, stubborn individual than me unless it being my wife. But, and somehow, 2 pigheaded, stubborn people have made it 40 years. But, anyway, that that is a change in me that that he had to make, but I can listen to all people.
Mike:Even people I disagree with. I can listen and I can learn. I may never come to their side, but I learned. And one of the things I learned is have compassion on those who have a different view than me. Mhmm.
Mike:And, again, that's that's something Christ has has done in me. I've preached a sermon here. I don't know how long it's been. Back at election time, you know, as the whole country is divided. And and I I preach the sermon on how both sides are just going crazy.
Mike:You know? You you you you can't be a Christian and be a democrat because, they support abortion. You can't be a Christian and be a republican because they don't like the poor and don't help them. You know, it's, it's, it's gotta stop. We, we got to first be Christ.
Mike:And I didn't know this at the time, but we had some elderly men in our congregation that were mad at each other over this stupid election. Couldn't believe that fool could believe the way that fool believes. After the service, I discovered them
Mike:in the parking lot
Mike:hugging and crying because they could now respect somebody else's opinion even if they didn't didn't even if they did not agree with it. Now I'm crying again. But, anyway, I think that's something that I bring. You know? Anybody with any parliamentary skills at all can moderate the meeting that day, you know, that Thursday of dealing with some length and all the reports you're you're getting.
Mike:Just takes a little risk. Hopefully, I've got some of that.
Mike:I've already
Mike:a lot of things and send it to present areas to sessions. So, hopefully, I can do that. Ministry council. Hopefully, I can do that. But the ability to listen others to others, particularly those you disagree with.
T.J.:The power of being able to listen and to learn, and you said show compassion. Alright. I'm gonna take us on a much lighter,
Mike:Good. My eyes are still clammy.
T.J.:Are there books, movies, songs in your life from long ago or recently that have impacted or are impacting your faith in life?
Mike:Well, I'm gonna mention one that I know, you just interviewed Rebecca Prenshaw who's who's, on staff here with me. And and she mentioned this because in our off air stuff you did too, but it's a book called transforming prayer and, how everything changes when we seek God's face. And we're I'm in the midst of that study, but it is it is a great book and and and it may change your perspective on prayer, whoever chooses to read and study. And it talks about seeking first the face of God instead of the hand of God. And so much of our prayers are, Lord, I need this or so and so sick and blessed.
Mike:You know, we've gone with the grocery list of prayers and scripture endorses bringing our our our needs and our wants and desires to God. But first seek his face, go, go to God in praise and worship. And then we, we discover something, our grocery list of prayers changes. Now the needs in some of those change, but our grocery list changes as we seek his face, our prayers become, Lord, make me more like Christ, not give me a raise or whatever. We will still lift up others in in prayer.
Mike:I don't mean to imply that, but, you know, years ago when I was a teenager, I think it was pretty popular. I'll be even still around, but there's a bumper sticker that used to say, prayer changes things. And it's true, but I think the important thing is, is prayer changes the prayer. And and this this book, it's not telling me nothing I didn't know. You know, I can go off to seminars and conferences.
Mike:They seldom don't learn anything new. Looking remember it. But it it just reminds and reinforces us the things we already knew that somehow fall off to the side. So right now, that book is is pretty high on on my list. But my all time favorite book so that's not even the right term favorite, but most life changing influential book I ever read, and this is pre ministry.
Mike:I read a book by Charles Flindall called grace awakening. My experience in church with my grandparents and then my initial experience after being baptized was was in the small southern baptist church that taught legalism with the best of them. And so I was a confirmed legalist. Then I ended up at Union Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and I learned a lot about grace. And it was in my tenure at union over 35 years ago that I read this book.
Mike:And I had listened to Chuck Swindoll on the radio so much that when I read this book, I heard his voice. I was a little freaky. But
T.J.:So, Mike, you're a recovering legalist.
Mike:I I I hope I am a recovered thing. Okay. But it may be like alcoholism. Once a once a legalist, always a legalist. Or maybe I am recovering, but I I hope I am recovered.
Mike:But Grace Awakening was the most life changing book I have ever read.
T.J.:The first book that you mentioned, you it's called Transforming Prayer.
Mike:Yes.
T.J.:Is that correct? And the author Niall
Mike:Henderson is the, author. Okay. And I never heard of him, but till I got the book.
T.J.:Well, we've talked quite a bit about journeys. We've talked about movements of God and callings. Mike, your faith journey is continuing after we finish this podcast. For those who have listened to your faith journey, and would like to know more about it, get to know more about you, where would you like to point people to reach out to you?
Mike:Well, one of these ways, I guess, would be go to, our congregational website, which is, you can either Google first not for first come, and it come up, or I can give you that if if you want it. It's it's simply www.firstdashcumberland.org. That'll take you to our website. We're on Facebook. We're on YouTube.
Mike:You can, learn about us there. On on the website, you'll find my email address and my cell number. Obviously, the church number, so I'll I'll talk to anybody anywhere.
T.J.:Alright. And
Mike:you were telling me like talking in person. It has
Mike:to be
Mike:too awful bad doing the the Zoom thing today, but my my hand gets tired of holding the phone. That's our last
T.J.:Right.
Mike:But if you have ears, I will talk.
T.J.:And Knoxville First, has your worship services on YouTube. You have a Facebook page. And, Mike is a member of the Ministry Council of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And you're also the current moderator of the Presbyterian of East Tennessee.
Mike:That is correct.
T.J.:And so if you're ever in the Knoxville area, look up Reverend Mike Wilkinson. Thank you so much for being raw and honest, vulnerable, and humorous all the same with your self awareness.
Mike:I appreciate that greatly, but I think I said something earlier that I I always try to be who I am. And I think grace helped me be who I am more fully, maybe, but always tried to be who I am. I'm the same on this podcast as I am in the pulpit as I am in person as I am at home. Lisa. At least I think I am anyway.
Mike:Other other than I argue, but if I'm not me, then I'm just pretending, and I've never been too pretentious.
T.J.:Alright. Well, thank you, Mike. Thank you for sharing your day with me.
Mike:You're welcome. Appreciate it.
T.J.:And thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with me on the next journey down Cumberland Road.
