Mitchell Walker - Living A Life Of Faithfulness To God
Exploring faith journeys and hearing inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God, you are listening to The Cumberland Road. I am your host, TJ Malinoski. Today's guest is reverend doctor Mitchell Walker senior. He has been serving the Church Street, Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America, and Huntsville, Alabama for over 22 years as a senior minister. In our conversation, Mitchell shares a lifetime of experiences. From receiving a call into ministry at an early age, establishing healthy boundaries, and seeing the church do ministry in a virtual environment. We talk about discerning holy nudges, and the realities of clergy burnout, and the challenges of living a life of faithfulness to God. You are listening to the Cumberland Road podcast, and here is my conversation with Mitchell Walker.
T.J.:Mitchell, thank you for joining me on the podcast. Please share just who you are and where you're serving and what you've been up to.
Mitchell:Well, my name is Mitchell Walker senior, which, differentiates me from my son who's a junior and from his son who is the third. So, oh wow. Yeah, I grew up in, in the rural, a rural community called Rock Spring that was just outside of Dyersburg in West Tennessee. That's home. It was a small community.
Mitchell:I graduated from Dyersburg High School, went to Bethel and graduated from Bethel in 74 and then went to Louisville Presbyterian Seminary in 74, and graduated from there in 77, and, moved to Cleveland, Tennessee after graduating from seminary there, and stayed there for a little bit over 23 years as pastor of the Saint James Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America. And then, received a call to, in that conversation with the congregation here at Church Street a couple of Presbyterian Church, in America, in 2000. And so I started here, September 1, 2000. And so now I'm past the 20 year mark. I'm, I'm in in order to have a, really, a a a tenure that you can really brag about, I piece all of my years together because I'm not looking forward to being here.
Mitchell:Someone said that, when they celebrated my 20th year here, we wish you have to have 20 more, and I I said no. So, I'm here in Huntsville, Alabama which is now the the most populous, city in the state that we're we're we're we're the we have the highest population now. So, I've been here 23, 20, 22 years, now. I'm married. My wife, Elaine, she I met I met her at Bethel.
Mitchell:As a matter of fact, that's one of the gifts that Bethel gave me that I would say you can take with me. And we got married in 74. And so and and we have children and grandchildren, those precious grandchildren. And, so I I I enjoy being, being where I am, and, but I'm looking toward the other end of, of of pastoring right now.
T.J.:Well, what does, retirement in the future, not now, but retirement in the future, what does that look like for you?
Mitchell:I'm try I'm standing on my tippy toes trying to, discern that. You know, certainly, certainly there'll be certainly parts of pastoring that I will certainly miss, even though it's a challenge. So but you're always getting ready for Sunday. Sunday comes pretty quickly. Even even when you have a plan, preaching plan, it still it still comes, comes on the heels of the other one.
Mitchell:I I'm not real sure. I I think, you know, I have some preparation in counseling, and, I I wanna do some writing. The I I've got a couple of things that I want to write. And so, fishing, that that's where a part of my my retirement will be. Even even if I don't catch anything, I'll go out there and relax.
Mitchell:More so than I do now. So yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's it's on the horizon. I just don't have a a target date yet.
T.J.:Well, as you said, you were discerning, and discernment process can can be a long period of time, a long season.
Mitchell:Yeah. The you you could probably bring your arms in a little closer than than you did. Yeah. Yeah. Well Yeah.
Mitchell:But that that's that's where I am.
T.J.:In terms of, life seasons, Mitchell, is there a time when you felt extremely close to god? And and the opposite of that, has there been times in your life where you felt at a great distance? And and what was that like?
Mitchell:Let me start from the reverse of that. I think the the the distanced, time period included times where, I was dealing with, conflict issues in the church, which, which god did not seem to take my side and resolve.
T.J.:Well, you're laughing now. Was it Yeah.
Mitchell:Yeah. I'm not laughing then. No. It was, it it was a gnashing of teeth at that point. But, yeah, you know, during those times of conflict when when you're trying to provide leadership, to the church and work with folk who are, who who you believe is at a certain point in their faith journey in terms of spiritual maturity and and understand the priorities of, God's call of the church.
Mitchell:And, sometimes, when that gets lost and and it's, kind of a battle of the wheels, And, you know, and I I I deemed myself to be on the side of God. So, so, so, when folk don't want to follow or cooperate, then, that's a whole, whole another issue. So, I think those type of conflict that, you know, because you, you know, you you're trying to work through things, and and you sometimes, at least I did not, sometimes feel the presence of god and see how god was working in even in the midst of those times of conflict and challenges, were the times that I felt most distanced from him. The times that I felt closest to him, includes right now. I mean, at this point in my life, and my faith and my ministry, that has been given to me and trusted to me, this this is the time that I feel closest to him, having, reassurances of his presence and his work in my life, and, you know, sometimes through me and sometimes in spite of me.
Mitchell:I I I feel, I feel feel a I have come to that point of really having a peace and a calm and, an assurance, that, we're not as profound as they are at this point.
T.J.:I wanna take a side tangent if if we may on, the conflict that you were, referring to in your ministry made me think of clergy burnout. You know, it's a topic, a growing topic in the last 18 months. And and, you know, some call it burnout, some call it a clergy crisis. Mitchell, what do you do to keep healthy mentally, spiritually, and physically?
Mitchell:Physically, when it's warm, I I do do walking and jogging. The the you know, my orthopedic doctor has told me not to jog anymore. I was in the chaplain in the, military for, reserves and national guard for about ten and a half years, and so I when I started in the with that, I fell in love with running. I just love to jog and run but, the knees, the pounding of the knees on the pavement is not good and sometimes I'll, I'll, not pay attention to my orthopedic and when I get out and walk. And my wife won't walk with me most of the time because she said, I know you got a job.
Mitchell:So so we don't do much of that, together, but I but I tried to, you know, I I I try to get to the exercise in. I was a member of a gym initially before this pandemic hit us, and then I kind of back out of that. And and then just getting away and just finding some space and time from church and ministry and to just, renew and get refreshed. And, you know, I and I do that really with spending time with, the wife and then the times that I have times with the kids. I take vacations every year.
Mitchell:I mean, that's that's a part of my routine. It just gets totally away. I I I mourn the fact that, that the cruises have been hit as they have been because every year for some years now, my wife and I would, for to part of what we do is to celebrate our anniversary and her birthday, which are 1 week apart. When I married her, I was just so in love. I didn't notice that there were two significant dates that were so close together.
Mitchell:We got married on August 17th, and her birthday is August 24th. And so we've gotta roll those 2, occasions together, and, we have, gone on cruises. So just just taking a vacation, just getting the time away to take take some downtime. And then and then just, sometimes, you know, just on a on a day when when you're feeling like it and and and you and you say it's one child and, supervisor, told us that, Urlacher Hospital in Chattanooga, you you you you gotta decide when enough is enough. And and so you gotta so to take a nap, I don't feel guilty about that sometimes taking a nap in the mid afternoon, to make sure that I keep my I keep my health up.
Mitchell:Because I I was going through some physical battles with my with blood pressure back a few years ago, spiking. My primary health provider, said to me, you can't take care of other folk unless you take care of yourself first. And so I think that's, so that that has helped me. I remind myself of that and do what I need to do to do that. It it's in terms of spirits spiritual, upkeep, I, you know, of course, the readings and studying and and having some quiet time and and even doing my walk into just take time to, you know, observe what God has created around us and placed before us to see it and and and and and slowing down a bit so that I don't miss something that, God has put before me.
Mitchell:So, so spiritually, you know, it's the reading, it's the meditation time, it's the quiet time, us being with him. And, not necessarily just for sermon preparation time, but, just to experience his presence, to hear his voice, as I strain to do that, in order to in order to keep myself grounded. So that's that's kind of what I do to take care of my physical, mental, and spiritual health.
T.J.:Yeah. I think as ministers, there is that temptation that every time you open up the scriptures for study, it is the mindset of, sermon preparation. And I think that we can have trouble as clergy separating the the 2 in terms of reading simply as a disciple and as a follower of Christ, and then reading the scriptures in terms of a future sermon, an upcoming sermon. And one, there's 2 different ways to read the text.
Mitchell:Yeah.
T.J.:And, so thanks for bringing that up because that I think that's a challenge for those who are serving a church and who do regular sermon preparation that opening up the word can almost feel like a vocation.
Mitchell:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just just opening up the word to, spend that time with God in terms of the listening to what the the the the word is saying to you, sometimes about you, and, and just getting that kind of refreshing inspiration from being, with him, with not a purpose of, again, creating something out of that, but just to know him better and to grow closer to him, and to be able to, in the midst of all the other voices of demands that are calling, to be able to sharpen my, my auditory, skills of hearing him, amidst all the other stuff.
T.J.:Well, in that tune of, the relational aspect with god, what is it about that relationship in Christ that really just keeps you coming back and identifying with this faith?
Mitchell:It's it's it's, it it's who I continue to discover him to be, And I know I would never ever exalt exhaust, my getting to know him. So like Paul, I I want to know him. I want to know him, not, you know, I I don't wanna just read to to to get sermon help and and and guidance in terms of, of, developing sermons, but, or speeches or whatever I'm doing. You know, I I really do want to know him, and and the older I get, the the more I want to really know him. And and, so that's, that's that's one of my primary goals.
Mitchell:I mean, you know, and and you you mentioned earlier about the, burnout. I mean, surely, this has probably been the most taxing time, of, my pastoral ministry having been out and doing most things virtually, managing all of our church ministries virtually, trying to keep us connected as a congregation, in the in the strongest ways we can so that people feel, loved and cared for and, that that someone is there for them. So it's it's it's been a real that part of it has been a real, a real challenge.
T.J.:Yeah. And trying to find ways to care for ourselves to be the best caregivers and spiritual guides that we can as ministers of the gospel. That's a tough balance.
Mitchell:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's, it's it's an ongoing challenge, and and and, and we have to do all that we can to to to try to keep ourselves centered and focused faithfully focused on, who we are and, why we're here and discerning God's call for our lives and our ministry and the collective ministry of the church. So that that's an ongoing, and it takes time away from other things. I mean, you know, living in community, like Huntsville and every community, you know, there there are so many other demands upon your time.
Mitchell:You know, people calling and want you to be a part of this and come to this, and would you participate in this? Or you know? And and so you really do have to kind of protect your calendar, your schedule, because if you don't, some somebody else will take charge of it. So, that's what I do. I even even with the congregation.
Mitchell:I mean, you know, certainly, even with our congregation, I have to I have to have to make sure that I I keep some healthy boundaries and not lose myself in in in the fact that I'm pastor of Church Street. I'm I'm I'm my mother used to help me, with that before before she she deceased in 2007, and she would say, boy, you you you gotta take you need to take care of yourself because you have a wife and you have children and you have grandchildren, that you need to, stick around here for as well. And so, that that has helped me to, to to remember. My first church is or is my is my family, my wife and my children and grandchildren. That's my first church.
Mitchell:And then and then then then is anybody from Church Street gonna hear this? But that is not unapologetically, that that is my first church. And, and then the church that I pastor, of course, is has its place, but I gotta keep those, separated as much as I can or at least managed.
T.J.:Mitchell, did you grow up in the church? What what do the early years of your faith look like?
Mitchell:Oh, yeah. I was, in in in that small community of Rock Spring and outside of Dyersburg in Dodge County in West Tennessee. My dad was an elder of the church. My grand his dad was an elder of the church. My mom was active in the church, sung in the choir, and and participated.
Mitchell:And so, yeah, my my early earliest beginnings was in the church. I've and so I've been kind of, I I guess, I've been around the church. Everything happened in the church except me being born exactly in it. Because back then back then church life was, we were talking, the other day with the focus and and remembering the old days, when in in that day, you grew up in the when you grew up in the church, you were there Sunday morning. You were there Sunday afternoon.
Mitchell:You were there Sunday night. You were there Wednesday night. You were there whenever the doors came open, I mean, you were, you know, pretty much there. So, you know, yeah, my my earliest beginnings grounded me in the, Cumberland Presbyterian Church. I mean, our denomination at that point was called the Colored Cumberland Presbyterian Church, back then when I when I was growing up back then.
Mitchell:We changed the name later to 2nd Congleton and now to Covenant Presbyterian Church in America. So, my my whole life has revolved around the church. My call was early age in the church. You know, so I I have just been in and around the church all the days pretty much of my life, what what I did not make intentional decisions about my parents did for me before that.
T.J.:Let's talk about your call to ministry. Did it come at a young age, and and how did you know that God was speaking to you as a calling to the word and the sacraments?
Mitchell:Yeah. Yeah. I was I was just knee high to a poop when, I discerned at that time, I was just a child, and said to my parents that God has called me to preach. And, my church gave me opportunity to, do that at an early age. I was licensed when I was actually around, I think, 12 years old and, ordained when I was 16.
Mitchell:And so I have been in this ministry, for all of my life. I I if there's if there's one thing I know for certain is that God called me to preach. Folk can say or believe whatever they want. I won't I won't debate that with them then. But, I I that's that's something that I know that I know that God called me to preach the pastoring part.
Mitchell:I've had continuing conversations with him at different intervals about pastoring. But I love pastoring. I mean, I I do I mean, I was doing those conflict times, and I said, hey, god. I mean, can I do something else? And I and I think what what I also realized was that that pastoring was where God wanted me at that time is is because I tried to get out of it in the midst of some conflict that was going on back, the gosh that was early on in pastoring after seminary.
Mitchell:And, what I discovered was that, God would not let me go. He wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do. I tried, and and and and and God, I remember the church that I was serving as youth minister over in Louisville. It was a PCUSA church at the time. They would not even come back together then.
Mitchell:And so that church, when I graduated, they did not have a pastor, and I had been at the church working for a couple of years as youth minister. And, so I I was in this period of conflict at the church where I was serving, and so I said, I know what I'll do. I'll call them and see if they got a pastor and back at Shawnee Presbyterian Church at West End, Louisville, and and I said, and so they didn't, and they wanted they actually wanted me to stay when I was youth minister. So I I said so I I took off, my wife and I took off and drove to Louisville 1 weekend, and, I sit down, talk with them, and they talk with me, and we decided what the next steps were gonna be. And and the the most miserable 300 miles of a journey that I've ever had was on my way back from Louisville because it was like God was saying to me, I did not give you release to go there and and and do that.
Mitchell:And so I, I got back and, in in spite of our relationship that we had, I had with the church there, I didn't call them back. They didn't call me back, and, that was that was that. And then it went on for a while longer, and I said, I'm I'm out of I am getting out of this this conflict. And so then I found out at a at a Georgia General Assembly meeting in I think it was in Knoxville, I believe, that, that I was not had not passed the the age limit for military chaplaincy. And so I talked with the the chaplain that presented that day, to the the joint assemblies, and, I got the packet.
Mitchell:I filled out the packet and sent the packet in. And, you know, periodically, I would call him and ask him, you know, had had he received it. He said, well, it's probably around here somewhere laying around, you know, it it it'll get to me. And and and and, honestly, after a month, 2 months, I I determined that, God had me settled where I was, and and and and it was interesting because about a year to date and and I did some work for the state, so I know that when we receive stuff, we times we date stamped it, date received. And so about a year to date from the time that I had sent the packet off to DC, it came back to me just as I said it.
Mitchell:And so it was even before then that I decided God did not God does not want me to leave this church. You know, that's something for me to learn. And, you know, and and I know that, that that I I moved through that process. So yeah.
T.J.:You know, many experienced the introduction to the Christian faith at that childhood level. And it seems like, you know, as teens or young adults or even older adults, we begin to have questions. And sometimes questions doubt, and sometimes it moves from doubt to disbelief. Mitchell, do you think that there is room for doubt in the Christian faith? And if so, as a minister, how do you address doubt when it's expressed?
Mitchell:You know, I I I think that we probably ought not to discourage people. And, you know, there there's a doubt that is questioning, that is seeking to confirm, rather than to deny. And, so I think, you know, the truth is all of us have dealt I'm not speech generically, that that, many of us I'll say it like that. I'll kind of narrow it down there. I had had had deal with doubt even in ministers.
Mitchell:I think, my first time of really dealing with serious doubt was when my father died in 1969. Helping man, accidental death on his job. I had gone to Ohio to work that summer. It was between my junior year and my senior year of high school. And, my mom was a little more sickly than my dad, but dad was always well.
Mitchell:He's nothing was ever wrong with him, but, you know, a little arthritis. But, one week from going there, therefore, that summer in 1969, my mom called me, on a Friday night. I had just left the Saturday before and told me my dad had died, and I could not understand. It was it was an accidental death on the job, but, you know, I could not understand why God would allow my dad to be taken from us. You know, I I and and this, you know, and and sometimes that's why I caution people about church folk, about being having all the answers and having all these cute little sayings that we say to folk when somebody dies.
Mitchell:That's that's our beloved. And sometimes we make matters worse rather than making it better. We confuse and and cloud people's understanding of who God is. And so when people said to me then, well, God wanted your daddy. And I said, but I wanted my dad.
Mitchell:I wanted him here with us, with my mom and my brother and I. And, so it it was it was hard to reconcile, the will of god, you know, as as it was stated then, to what, what I what I I desired. And and and and I and to be honest, TJ, I I stayed in aid with God for years. I was preaching. I was pastoring.
Mitchell:I was in aid with God because God took my dad. He missed all of those momentous events in my life. And, and and it was because I kept hearing this echo, in my head of those folks that were saying, well, God wanted you dead and etcetera, etcetera. And I thought, you know, why is God so mean? Why is he even so, uncaring about the concerns of my life as a as a young person growing up, as a child growing up.
Mitchell:So I think there's definitely room for doubt, you know, and and doubt sometimes is it only allows us the opportunity to confirm what we're questioning. Yeah. It's not seeking to denounce it or deny it, but to confirm. I think maybe that was really the case with Thomas, with Jesus after the resurrection. You know, he it's also doubt is, doubt is something that we may not may not be publicly polite to acknowledge, but it's it's something that we deal with.
T.J.:Yeah. I I think I think as ministers, I think as Christians, we we need to be honest and more transparent that doubt is a human a human emotion. And, I think as as leaders in the church, we can help people navigate with questions, with doubt, with disbelief. And and and it's a form of evangelism as in how does the gospel speak to us today wherever today has brought us. And, which kinda leads to my next question is, Mitchell, where do you see where do you see God today?
T.J.:Where do you see God in your life today?
Mitchell:I I know he's always at work, and so I hold on to Romans 828, that in all things, God is working together something for my good, our good. Even though I may not understand it, even though I may not discern it, even though I may disagree with it, which many times all of those things are true, but that that God is present, that God is perfecting what concerns him about me. And, and so I you know, it's a struggle sometimes to submit to the perfecting, progressing, purpose of God in my life. But, that's that's, that's kind of where I am. It's it's a it's a challenge sometimes to just be open and, to open myself to what god is allowing, because whatever he's allowing, he has purpose in it.
Mitchell:And and I may not understand it, but, it it's it's a conclusive matter. We, you know, we know that all things do work together. But God, God is at work now, and and I see him helping me to provide leadership in this time of uncertainty, this time of fear, this time of doubt, this time of of, of con of of confusion that that is not just in the church as we struggle and navigate ourselves through this time of virtual world and in person world. But but, in in in the in the climate of our country, in in in in, the political arena, the social arena, that God is, God is at work with me. And every once in a while, I can discern those, holy nudges that, that that they give me direction and instruction about, where to go.
Mitchell:So God God is at work now leading me step by step. If I can you know, I'm always standing again on my tippy toes trying to discern how far out I'm looking in the distance, I'm looking future futuristically, but, you know, I I I'm learning more and more to accept where I am and, still to look toward the future with hope and and faith that, that it's gonna all work out. In the end, it it all works out.
T.J.:Let's, let's talk about the church, the church that we serve, the universal church, and you can narrow it down to denomination. You narrow it down to local congregation if you like. But what is the church? What's it doing right, and what is it doing wrong?
Mitchell:That's a great question. I think what what we're doing right is that we are this this pandemic has helped us like persecution did in the 1st century church to expand, our horizon. You know, we we've moved away from the limited, evangelistic outreach, the congregational outreach because we have had to now, you know, most all pastors have become televangelists. You know, we we have a virtual ministry now that reaches I mean, the good news of that is that it reaches those that we were not reaching in in the past. And I know there's there's a you know, I've been saying, you know, I try to keep up with the narrative of of how virtual world is going for church.
Mitchell:And I was just reading an article last night that that that talks about the decline of those who were, on board and active and present, during the initial phase of this virtual journey with the church and worship on Sunday mornings. But, that has now declined or is continuing to decline. And, but but but I'm I'm I'm hopeful that because of what we have already done in in adapting, what we have been doing in the past in the way we've been doing it. And we find new and creative and innovative ways, to form to to do to to still be the church in the community. That's what I have that's what I noticed universally.
Mitchell:I mean, it's not that we're not church. I read something the other day is is is the church not being church because we've, kind of been exiled to to to virtual land, and and and we aren't. We're we're we're figuring out how to do how to be church and do the work of the church in this virtual environment, for that space that we are in virtual environment, and and still be effective. So I so I think God is at work in the church, helping us to maybe get beyond the walls and to and to see differently about the call that he has upon the church, so that we're not hemmed in by the walls of the building, and that we still can be effective in doing what we do even when all the people have not yet returned. And so, you know, I we were I had church session last night, and and, we were we were virtual, and then we came back in person, but a lot of people still remain virtual.
Mitchell:And then and so then we went back virtual again because of the increasing numbers, here in in Madison County. And, so we then we were talking about going back in person, but what we realized is that we're gonna have to have, a dual platform. It's it's it can't be either or anymore. I think for those churches that survive and and and some of the things that I've read and heard in webinars and and readings is that churches that survive and and that will do best in this new, new new time, are churches that are gonna be able to operate do dualistically in both environments, in person, but also virtual, and and figure out how to do that. And and and maybe figure out, I think we've I think it has also caused us to, get with God about what the priorities of his kingdom business is about.
Mitchell:You know? And and and we've, sluffed off some of the stuff that we were doing that was not essential, that were not the essential elements and call of the church. I mean, I I can say for us, you know, we, you know, we we pared some things down. We've we've, shut down some stuff that that that even in worship, I mean, even in worship, I think, that we come to think about as we look at the confession of faith, as we look at the Bible, you know, what what's really essential. Mhmm.
Mitchell:And and we do those things in in in conform us with those things that guide us. But, I I think the church is the the church can come out of this or is coming out of this energized, I I think, I hope. I mean, I'm I'm saying that some churches are having real struggles. Some churches are closing. Churches have, who who are already on the verge of of because of some struggles of having to decide what they were gonna do and how they were gonna do it and if they were going to do it, are are are having some serious issues because of finances, which are putting a strain on pastoral employment.
Mitchell:I understand, you know, there are, you know, churches are moving some at least I understand that, you know, some churches have had to decide whether they can afford to have a full time pastor any longer. So the the the church is is is going through a process of of self examination, of, what's essential and what has God really called us to be and to do.
T.J.:From your perspective, where are some of the weak points of the church? Room for improvement.
Mitchell:I've been disheartened over the past several years because of how the church how the church in some branches or wings of the church K. Have embraced the political arena in a way that, to me, conflicts and collides with the gospel message. The views and values that we get from the word of God, People seem to have a spouse, a person, or a personality or and all of that that goes with them, to the point that it seems that no longer do we live out the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are some things that are true, and there are some things that are false. I I've been disheartened by, the you know, in some instances, by the voices of some who are nationally known and prominent on the on the national church stage, in what they say and what they do about what, for me at least, seems to be, entirely antithetical to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Mitchell:So I so I I I think the church is weakened by that. The church certainly has been divided, is divided on some of these issues and loyalty to to folk and platforms. And and, so I I think when we, on one side, accept that which we know is at least has been settled, and yet we are discussing and to decide a a new direction, that causes the church to have difficulty. I've been encouraged, by the fact that, the church the parts of the church across the board universally, locally have joined together to talk about and talk through some of these issues that have been plaguing us since the beginning of this country. And this is African American History Month.
Mitchell:I would not dare conclude this time without mentioning that. And and the fact that, that we now have arrived at a point where we sometimes don't wanna talk about or have taught those things that, are very much a part of our history, that that we live through. I mean, some of us are of age that we have lived through some of the things that are facing us. I remember a class that I had when I was doing my DNA at Columbia, and doctor James Cone was there. And he asked a question in one of the classes, what does the gospel of Jesus Christ have to do with the poor, the suffering, the oppressed, those who are kind of cast aside?
Mitchell:So I think the church is is called and compelled to answer that call in a way that responds in some effective ways, meaningful ways.
T.J.:I see myself as an optimist. And so we've talked about room for improvement for the church. I wanna ask you, what is your hope and your dream for the church?
Mitchell:That the church will hear to heed the voice of God that for which God has always issued the same call, based on the same principles of his kingdom. My hope for the church is that we will allow the world to dictate to us, what is right and wrong, what's true and false, what is good and what is not good, that we will, hold fast, to our to the faith that has once been delivered to us. That's what I hope. And and I and I think in many ways, we are, but in some ways, we are failing.
T.J.:And your hope is that we reach that echelon of steadfastness?
Mitchell:Yeah. Be be be be being faithful, and and and maybe, you know, I I I know it's it's it's just kinda different, but to to be faithful to what we understand God in Christ has called us to be and to do, to live out the faith. And and because he's not just calling us to do stuff, he's calling us to be somebody. And our doings ought to come out of our being.
T.J.:I have a question that I thought of this morning, and I wrote it down for our conversation. I wanna pull from your wisdom and experience. Mitchell, what advice would you give to a young person, the high school, college age, you know, that's coming up in this complex world that we're living in. And they are like all of us seeking a life of fulfillment, fulfillment in a relationship, in job, in school, and just life. How does the Christian faith answer that fulfillment?
Mitchell:In Christ, we have a model. We have someone who has presented to us, the challenge of living a life of faithfulness to God, and so to and that's one of the discussions we're having here at our church. How do we come alongside, young people and others who feel conflicted about some of that which they are hearing and seeing and are and is being stamped as approvable. How do you help young people? How do we help young people do that?
Mitchell:I think, you know, we we we we've gotta stay in relationship with them first. We've gotta know what their issues are, but they're I mean, you know, rather than deciding for them what necessary what they need to be doing and and how they need to be responding, I think we've we've gotta have a conversation with them. We gotta have a relationship with our young people, in order to be able to be able to minister to them in meaningful ways. You know, they, you know, they, you know, they they are questioners. They are they they query us.
Mitchell:It's it's not as cut dry for them as maybe it was for us at at the point where they now are, because there are so many things, bombarding them from so many different directions that are competing voices. And, that are competing voices. And, so I think for our young people, we've got to make sure we don't lose contact with them, communication with them, having relationship with them, so that we can continue to impart, from our wisdom, experience, and and and and knowledge, the things that we believe that will be helpful to them. That's that's a part of my, my, at 69 years old. I just said it's 69, almost 70.
Mitchell:This is my 70th year. Should the lord let me see December. That's, that's a part of what I believe that my calling is to my to, first of all, to my family, to my my children all grown, but I've got grandchildren now. So my to my children's children, to help them to understand the significance of having a meaningful salvation relationship with Jesus Christ, a discipling, growing, maturing relationship with Christ, and out of that relationship, to make decisions, for the directions of their lives. I I mean, you know, that that's because we're not gonna always be around to tell them what to do and and, you know, what not to do.
Mitchell:And so, you you know, I I want my as I want it for my children, I want for my grandchildren, I want for the children of the church, the children of the community to be able to have a a a kind of to be birth out of a womb of of Christianity that provides for them, the context of what they, of how they make decisions and how they look at life and how they handle their relationships, how they how they handle their partnerships, you know, whatever that whatever the for the whole arena of their life that they can use their relationship in Christ based upon the word of God and what God is sharing with us in his word, to to to to live out their life faithfully.
T.J.:Yeah. I've I've just been thinking deeply kind of about that question, and I wanted to write it down and and pose it to you, draw from your experience, draw from your wisdom. I I'm attracted to the inquisitive nature of the generations that are younger than me. It's not exclusive but and and asking the questions why. And I think it's important if it's about faith that we not be shaken by those questions and defensive by those questions because something to be said to seek.
T.J.:You seek out answers. You seek out direction. And, I admire that about, folks who are looking at the faith and looking at it in an inquisitive way in the mix of the complex world that we're a part of. And Yeah. I hope I hope that people are drawn to us to ask those questions as opposed to just, making assumptions about Christianity, about Christians, about church, about the institution of church.
T.J.:Some of those assumptions may be right, but
Mitchell:Yeah.
T.J.:Come with me and we'll figure them out or at least explore them together. We won't figure them out, but we'll explore them together.
Mitchell:And I think that's the key, TJ. That's the key. We have to feel comfortable enough, and we have to be transparent enough to say that we too are fellow pilgrims along this path. That that that that there are still even at the point of of of where we are in our lives and ministry, and our faith journey, that there are still times that we have questions. But there are still times that we're still trying to figure some things out.
Mitchell:I mean, there are some things that are settled there for us. But then, there are some things that we're still trying to figure out. And, we're always, many times, reexamining, what we believe and what we do through the lens of our faith based on where we are in our journey. And and and probably if if we could just be transparent. I mean, if we could just say it's okay, as you just said, it's okay to ask questions.
Mitchell:It's okay to not be okay. It's it's okay to it's okay to to to acknowledge that you have fears, that you have doubts, that you have questions, that you have disappointments, that that the whole realm of the emotional part of us, it's okay to acknowledge that and to and to come alongside of someone else who is working through that with us. As I think, you know, I I think after I've said that, I believe the church would be so much better, would be so much healthier and happier and truer to to herself if if we took seriously, and I hope I'm not isogeding this. Look. James says, confess your faults one to another.
Mitchell:You know, confess the fact that we there are some things that we may have had settled that now are we're questioning. There are some things that we have questioned in the past that now has become settled, but then we're still on a journey that that that that and it's okay to be where you are, to affirm those who have not settled some things about their faith, about Christ, about, their own personal journey. It's okay for them to be where they are, and we don't have to we should not try to, embarrass them, make them demean them, denigrate them because they are where they are with the questions they have, the doubts they have, the concerns that they have. That it it's okay to be where you are. And and and and and I'm here to help you consider those things and walk with you through these times.
T.J.:Yeah. I think we spend, no. Let let me narrow that down. I think I spend, quite a bit of time and energy hiding those faults that James is writing about, instead of confessing. I think I spend so much time well, I don't want you to know what my weaknesses are and my faults and my sin.
T.J.:I don't think I'm alone on that, but I did wanna change from we to I and let let others draw, you know, kind of reflect on that as well. But the moment that I'm able to show the real me actually opens doors up to others who are going, okay. I knew he wasn't perfect. See, I told you, TJ. He wasn't he wasn't perfect.
T.J.:He he
Mitchell:Well, I think we have to feel comfortable in admitting that first so that when others see and hear of our imperfections that that it's not a bewilderment, amazement. You know? I I mean, Paul said, there is no temptation that is not common. So so, I mean, everything that somebody experiences are something are are are some things that somebody else is experiencing. But if we think that we are the lone one in in in whatever it is, we we we really can't be helpful to others.
Mitchell:I mean, I mean, I I I I suppose that we you know, there there needs to be a you know, we gotta place limitations on on what we share, when we share, how we share, with whom we share. Right. But, but just the general fact is that we are not perfect. And and and and when when the bible talks about us being perfect, it's not talking about human perfection. It's, you know, it's it's it's it's talking about being mature, moving toward a determined end of, of of maturity, of more maturity.
Mitchell:So, I I think if we can just, you know, take the, the mask off sometimes and let folks see the real us in terms of these issues that, are sometimes conversing with our faith that, it it it that that will help other folk to be okay.
T.J.:Yeah. It there's a difference between being vulnerable for vulnerability's sake, but then there's being vulnerable, in our faith is a different kind of vulnerability. And I think that is one of the things the world is looking for, true vulnerability to know that we share that in common and that we we see, as Christians, Christ as a place where you can be vulnerable and be a lover of one another and the creation that god has laid before us. And it's a risk, but we're not doing it for ourselves. It's just it's a hard I don't like this phrase.
T.J.:It's a hard sell. It's a hard sell to ask people to be vulnerable in the name of god.
Mitchell:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think, TJ, that also, aging, chronological aging helps. It can't help because I think as as, they used to say back home, you know, when a person just says what's really on their mind that, you know, it's it's because they reached that point of feeling comfortable now of of of of exposing themselves in in that way.
Mitchell:So I I think, you know, it's it's it's important to to be vulnerable to with each the the wounded healer by Henry Nowing. That's, I mean, that was, when I got exposed to that, well, that's that that helped me that really helped me let some of my guard down. It's not all the way, but it's it it it you know, that that that, you know, we have experienced some things in life. We deal with some things in life, present past to present tense, that would when we share them with others, we help them in their period of woundedness, in their period of of of of of trials and and and and and troubles and temptations. I mean, you know, but if we act like, wow.
Mitchell:Really? I remember in seminary in Louisville, professor Ocure, professor said to us, if you really wanna shut down, a time of sharing when somebody is sharing something with you, When they share something with you, that really may catch you off guard is to let them know it caught you off guard, to give them the look that, like, you're about to fall out of the chair. Right. You know, that that you've never heard anything like this before. And so I think, you know, I mean, there there's nothing that that's not common.
Mitchell:I mean, there's nothing new under the sun. I mean, it it may express itself in different ways, different persons, different places, but, there's nothing new under the sun. And so we we have a commonality in our humanity that we, need to share.
T.J.:Spoken like a true scholar.
Mitchell:That's why I put all these books behind me to stage it.
T.J.:Mitchell, I've enjoyed this conversation. If folks wanted to, learn more about your faith journey, where would you like to point him to?
Mitchell:Me? Come have a conversation with me. I mean, you know, there's some things that are on our website, our church website, you know, but that's, you know, that's part of it. I've got I, you know, I still have I still have papers that I wrote in school that that that that that gives the story of my life, in in some instances. But, you know, conversation.
Mitchell:I mean, 1 on 1 conversations. So conversations, I think, is where it happens.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Me too. And folks can reach out to you, Church Street, have a Facebook page, website. What are they?
T.J.:I I don't want I I I am notorious with previous guest of bungling where, you know, websites and things like that. So tell people where they can find you in in those areas.
Mitchell:Okay. Our church website is www churchstcpca. So it's church abbreviated for street and then cpca.org. That's our that's our our church website. And our, and we have a couple of Facebook pages, Church Street Coupler Presbyterian Church in America is our main page.
T.J.:Alright. Mitchell, thank you so much for laying your wisdom on me, your experience, and most importantly, sharing your faith journey. I appreciate your time.
Mitchell:Thank you for the opportunity, and and I pray that you will just continue this forward, that it is helpful. I'll I'll certainly, look look to join in when when I'm not sitting here. Somebody else is sitting there.
T.J.:And for everybody who listened today, thank you for joining the podcast. Grab a friend and travel with me on the next journey down Cumberland Road.
