Cumberland Road

T. J.: 00:03

You are listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. The following is a faith conversation with reverend doctor Mitzi Minor, the Mary Magdalene professor of New Testament at Memphis Theological Seminary. With 31 years in theological education, we talk about what education may look like in the future, but the only certainty is that theological training is and will change. Doctor Minor's journey includes a solid faith foundation within the Southern Baptist Church that nurtured and prepared her for both life and vocation. She shares with me how she became an ordained minister in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and has served both of its University and Memphis Theological Seminary. For full disclosure, I have known doctor Minor since my teenage years, meeting her first on a youth mission trip and later as her student. Her approach to the world, ministry, and the scriptures has shaped my ministry. And to this day, though I am no longer her student, I still call her doctor Minor. And now, dear friend, here is my faith conversation with Mitzi Minor.

T. J.: 01:45

Doctor Minor, you are the Mary Magdalene Professor of New Testament, and I want to open up with this question to gather your thoughts. Cumberland Road, my attempt is exploring faith journeys, and I had you in class and, of course, in your writings. You talk about the overlap, the connection between the New Testament and the spiritual journey and the faith journey. Could you elaborate more for me how we of the 21st century have more in common with the people of the New Testament than we realize?

Mitzi: 02:29

Yeah. First of all, thanks, TJ, for letting me be a part of this with you, and the opportunity to have a conversation like this with you is something I cherish. So thanks so much for that. And the opening question, given that, what I do is spend my days with my nose stuck in the pages of the New Testament, which would make a lot of people go, ew, and and makes me go, yay. Yeah.

Mitzi: 02:57

It it is it's always been my study of New Testament has always been more than my job. I get to do work. I get to study new testament. I get to teach it, you know, with my students like you and Melissa were, you know, once upon a time, and I get to do that work that isn't just work. It is also had a profound effect on my own spiritual journey because, you know, I'm studying away and I encounter something, and and I'm astounded after all these years how often it still happens that I'll read something and I've never noticed that before or I've never made that connection before or I've never really put this maybe piece of first century information that I know in my head.

Mitzi: 03:57

I've never really put it in that story and let that story pop like it does once you do that until this particular moment. And I find myself with my mouth hanging open. And, and here is this new perspective, new insight, new challenge, new wisdom for me coming from this ancient text, an ancient text that I've studied a ton, but which challenges me in terms of how I'm living my own life. You know, as an example, this past semester, I was teaching the Corinthian letters, at the seminary. And as we all know, the war broke out in between Israel and Hamas, you know, kinda right in the middle of that semester.

Mitzi: 04:54

And so, you know, I'm working on Paul, a Middle Eastern guy, talking about his faith, talking to the Corinthian folks about their faith, in a setting very close to where that war had broken out. And as we worked through that text, I I had I had this day when I remembered actually not something in the Corinthian letters, but in his letter to the Roman believers where he talks about sin, but for Paul, it's not our so much our individual moral failures as it is this huge force in the universe that has us all in bondage and it leads to death. And all of a sudden one day, I found myself saying to my students, look at what's happening. You know, they're illustrating exactly what Paul was talking about. Because they've grown up with hate and fear and that person is a is my enemy.

Mitzi: 06:00

And once that person is labeled as an enemy, then they respond to me as an enemy, and the hostility increases, and the mistrust increases, and the fear increases. And we live in that kind of world, and what, you know, and what are they doing with that? They're just producing death and death and death and death. And and then I, you know, I said, we've we've been invited by what God has done in Jesus to live an entirely different way of life that leads to life. And it was one of those moments when Paul's teachings just sort of popped for me because of what was you know, I'm looking at, oh, you know, an awful situation in Israel and and reading this text.

Mitzi: 06:50

And, you know, I as I always say, I had a moment, and a realization that we are really called to live in ways that are inclusive and welcoming and gracious and tender and forgiving and and and where, you know, as I as I say to my students, I think the new testament calls me, calls us, that every time I encounter another person, every time, in the grocery store, in my neighborhood, you know, in the convenience store where I stop for gas on the way home to visit my mother. You know, every time we encounter another person, our very first thought should be, here is another beloved child of god. And and think of how differently our world would would operate if we did that. So not that, you know, whatever. If if you're in Israel, it's not that Palestinian or that, you know, Arab, or if you're one of if you're an Arab, it's not that Jew or that Israeli, you know, to use again that my first response was, here's another beloved child of god.

Mitzi: 08:10

I mean, we're talking world peace here. You know what I mean? It it really is in some ways that simple, and god is showing us that. We're just a hard headed lie, aren't we? But that study of the new testament, you know, leads me to moments like that.

Mitzi: 08:27

And I realized I've been called to live in renewing and redemptive and creative and gracious ways, And that that impacts me, and it impacts the world around me, and and it leads to life.

T. J.: 08:43

Doesn't our posture towards the biblical text though, open us up or even close us off to, allowing it to to speak to us and allowing for new discoveries. Because if I approach the biblical text, new or old or both, as in I'm searching for answers because I have a very particular issue or problem or or I an argument to win or that sort of thing. I've narrowed my scope to where I can't look. I'm sort of answering my own question. You can interrupt me.

T. J.: 09:21

But I've narrowed, you know, my my my point of view, my lens from just seeing a very small niche of the vast field and forest of the scriptures. And I mean that in a beautiful sense, the richness and the variety there. But, I mean, I I realized that temptation because I have fallen to that temptation time and time again. So I I know we're moving a little bit away. We're gonna jump right into your faith journey.

T. J.: 09:52

But this is about faith journey.

Mitzi: 09:54

Absolutely.

T. J.: 09:55

In the sense that how do I avoid that temptation so to allow the scriptures to speak when they're ready and where I and and when I can hear it or how I can hear it.

Mitzi: 10:13

Yeah. It's it's a marvelous question. It's not just a good question, TJ. I think it's a marvelous question. And I doubt very seriously that there is a single answer to that question.

Mitzi: 10:26

The thoughts that went through my head as you were asking them revolve around a phrase I heard just about a year ago. During COVID, when, you know, we were all home and, I needed to get out of the house. And so I started taking really long walks, and I began to listen to podcasts. So, you may remember, I'm not much of a techie, so this is kind of a venture into, you know, this world, you know, for me, and and I've enjoyed the heck out of that. And, I often think I I wonder if my neighbors sometimes, you know, wonder about me because I'll be walking, and I'll hear something funny.

Mitzi: 11:06

I don't just be laughing out loud while I'm walking in the street. But, you know, it's been it's been both physically very good to be out walking, and many of the podcasts I've listened to have been so thought provoking. But so with that context about last spring, I heard a part of pastor. I did not write down who the interviewee was, and I and I'm so mad about that. So I can't go back and find it again, at least not without some effort.

Mitzi: 11:34

But the person said that that their their sort of stance in life was to be open, curious, and willing to be surprised. And I love that phrase. Just generally speaking, I love that phrase. But I offer it to my students when we start study of new testament rather than I already know what it says, I already know what this story means. I already know what the new testament says I should believe.

Mitzi: 12:11

And and many of us because we've been in church all of our lives, which is a good thing, but it is easy to get how would you describe it? To get well, you know, folks use today that the term echo chamber. You you kinda you're in a place where everybody believes like you do, and they think like you do, and so you just reinforce all of that. And, of course, this is the way faith is. And so when it comes to, in my case, reading the new testament, this is the way we read the new testament.

Mitzi: 12:46

This is what it means. And and we don't intend to, but it becomes that kind of approach to scripture. So we go to scripture already expecting to find certain things as opposed to being open, curious, and willing to be surprised. And when we're that, and this is my own experience, to be open, curious, and willing to be surprised for me has meant there is more there than I could have dreamed. When I began doing new testament study for my vocation back as a graduate student in my twenties, you may remember being in your twenties and talk about being prone to think you know everything.

Mitzi: 13:37

I certainly was that, and boy was I wrong. You know? And and, you know, that that no. There is there's just layers and layers, and and it's not even just layers in the story. It's that as we grow and change, the story will resonate in different ways.

Mitzi: 14:02

The the paragraph in one of Paul's letter will resonate in different way. You if if you've never had the experience of one thing or another, you read a story and like it, but when you've had the experience, if you've if you've been a parent, had a child terribly sick, those stories of a Syrophoenician woman, a Jairus and his daughter, you know, had to take on depths of meaning that until you were different, you couldn't appreciate. And, you know, I'm in the middle of teaching a class last semester and a war breaks out. And all of a sudden, I'm seeing issues of life and death in Paul's letters differently as we watch the horrors, you know, unfold there. And and so that, yes, that how we approach scripture with openness and curiosity and a willingness to be surprised, you know, and all of that for me also calls for humility, which is I don't know everything.

T. J.: 15:08

Right.

Mitzi: 15:09

I don't know nearly as much as I thought I did, for example. And then, you know, that kind of openness, here's this wisdom, I didn't even know to ask about. I didn't even know to look for. If if it were up to me to have said, I wanna know this, I would have never gotten there because I didn't even know. And then you encounter it, and it's like, oh, that's the word I needed to hear today.

Mitzi: 15:44

That's the story that I need to walk around with today. And I didn't even know until I encountered the story with a sense of openness and curiosity and humility. And so it becomes it's an it's it's it's an incredible thing to think about in the case of the new testament, 2000 years. You know? And and, of course, when we're talking about old testament, we're talking about 8000 years.

Mitzi: 16:19

6000 years, you know, maybe. Right? And and today, we need a new cell phone because this one's, you know, like, you know, 15 months old.

T. J.: 16:28

Right.

Mitzi: 16:29

And and and we need a new whatever. You know, we are the latest and the greatest kind of a society, and the idea that old things matter is kinda not us. Mhmm. And yet here is this sacred text 2000 years old. And for those willing to be open, curious, and willing to be surprised, it keeps popping up wisdom and treasure and insight and moment.

Mitzi: 17:05

You know? I you can tell I I get a kick out of what I get to do. Right?

T. J.: 17:12

Doctor Minor, could you can you recall an early exposure, an moment with the biblical text, with the with the bible? Was it early? Was was it someone reading to you? What was that like?

Mitzi: 17:33

Yes. And and the answer to your questions there are yes. My dad, read to me when I was, you know, a little little girl. We had a a book that was that took, you know, the bible stories and and wrote them for children. I I I think it's actually called the children's book of the bible or something like that.

Mitzi: 17:54

And and, you know, so Joseph and his mini colored coat, you know, for example. You know? Yeah.

T. J.: 18:00

So so it had illustrations in it as well to kind of yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mitzi: 18:04

So here's a story for you. When I was I would have been about, 3rd grade, I think. I was in Vacation Bible School at my church, and we're coloring, you know, Joseph's coat in in bible school. And the teacher of the class we are we're all, you know, colored away. And the teacher of the class, you know, says, who's coming?

Mitzi: 18:25

Somebody's coming, and I love that. That means they're happy. And it was me, and I didn't even know it. You know? My, you know, my friends started going, it's it's it's you know, I was like, what?

Mitzi: 18:36

Okay. And then, of course, a little embarrassed, but, you know, that was that. And and the other funny thing about that was I was I was coloring the stripes so they were vertical on his coat. Everybody else in my class was making them horizontal. You know, these days later, what does that say?

Mitzi: 18:55

But yeah. So early on from church, from my dad reading, you know, those stories when I was a kid and that whole saga of Joseph, you know, if if you can tell it, you know, if you can tell it for a 4 or 5 year old to kinda get wrapped up in the story, that's quite a story, you know, to follow for several days. But I also remember very distinctly when I was about 16 or 17. I don't even know why. I don't know what prompted this at all, but I opened the book of Acts and started reading, and that doggone thing read like a novel.

Mitzi: 19:31

You know? I mean, I just kept reading. I was kind of astounded that all these things happened to all these people, you know, and it it read like a novel, and I was kinda captivated by that. And, I think ever since then so all that's in, you know, my growing up, you know, I've I've had this sense of connection, you know, to the new testament. You know, which doesn't make me unique.

Mitzi: 19:56

I think lots of us have a sense of connection to the new testament, and this was sort of where mine came. And then when I began to have a sense of call to do a PhD and become a new testament professor, you know, I I suppose a lot of folks, you know, would would go again, oh. You know? And and I was like, yippee. So, the the studying part of that and taking comprehensive exams, not so much, but but getting to, you know, kind of hang out in the new testament was was fun.

Mitzi: 20:33

Yeah. I was I was incredibly lucky in my in my growing up years and getting introduced to those story and learning to love the stories from early on. You know? And I'm very grateful to those folks that enable that, including my parents, but some some really good Sunday school teachers, bible school teachers, you know, folks. So for those who who may be listening who do those kinds of things, look, that work matters.

Mitzi: 21:02

That work really matters. Good for you guys.

T. J.: 21:07

Was there a a point in your your walk of faith where you you felt like that the relationship with God was real, tangible, made well, I'll finish my thought, but, where it made sense. But I don't know if it from a pragmatic point of view, from a worldly point of view, certainly, a relationship with God probably looks different as an outsider looking in. But anyway, I'd at least when I finished my thought, I'm sure folks will clear me up right and ready on on that. But no, there's got to for those who have been part of who haven't been part of the faith and came to it later as an outsider looking in, it looks a bit odd. And then at time from time to time, we bumble it as we try to articulate through words what a relationship with God is like from day to day point of view.

T. J.: 22:09

Alright. Bail me out. I've kind of lost my train of thought of where I was was going with this. Oh, when the relationship with God through Jesus Christ became something real for you and informed your your life experience?

Mitzi: 22:28

You know, I don't know that I can point to a moment. I read once, in a description of of young people coming to faith, that, you know, we tend to want to tell the stories of, particularly in young people who, you know, get lost along the way and, you know, end up, you know, doing pretty destructive things for their lives. And then one way or another, they have an encounter, with a wise teacher or a friend who is faithful, and and they they become, you know, or or come back to as the case may be, you know, to their church settings or they, you know, go to a camp in the summer because they didn't have anything else to do and it ends up having a profound, you know, experience, you know, profound effect on their lives or something like that. You know? And we love those stories, and I love those stories.

Mitzi: 23:31

But that that was a big I read it again, I talk about reading his description. There's there are kids for whom that is the experience and a whole lot of kids who grow up in church who leave and then come back at some point. And and again, we find out those seeds that were planted really do matter, And they come back and, you know, for whatever reason, their own lives are have become, you know, troublesome to them or they've become parents, and they want their kids to have the students they did or whatever the case may be. And again, that wasn't me. I never left.

Mitzi: 24:09

And so part of the description in this particular book was that some kids are what they call emergers. They just kinda keep on and faith emerges as they keep on. That really describes me. I I never left. I didn't have a wild side.

Mitzi: 24:26

I didn't, wander from faith and do destructive things for a while and then Right. You know, like the prodigal son, come to myself and come back. I didn't, you know, I didn't do that. I I stayed. And

T. J.: 24:39

There's still plenty of time for that. There's still plenty of time for that.

Mitzi: 24:46

I'm way too old for that now. I but but, you know, and I'm I'm I'm really I'm really grateful, you know, for that. It was, like, which I don't wanna make it sound like that statement was easy for me. But I didn't I didn't have a rebellious phase, I guess, is, I guess, what I'm trying to say. It was always meaningful to me.

Mitzi: 25:12

I was I mean, from a I'm one of those folks that from a very young age, she has sense of God's presence. And, again, I I can't there wasn't something that happened. It was just there. Theologian Dorothy Zirla actually says most kids do, and we sort of get it out of them as they, you know, get older. I do have a very significant memory of going from I mentioned, you know, Sunday school and bible school, my childhood years.

Mitzi: 25:46

And when I was 7th grade, you know, and at that point, this is before they did middle school, I went to junior high school. And and in my church, I went from the children's Sunday school program to the youth program. And the children's Sunday school program had been just so much fun. All those stories and we, you know, we drew in color, like I said, and we acted the stories out and we sang all the songs, you know, Zaccheus was a wee little man and, you know, those things that it was, you know, it was very imaginative and very creative. And then I got to be 7th grade and switched to a new Sunday school class, and we sat around the table and talked about doctorate.

Mitzi: 26:24

And I remember thinking, what happened? And I went from loving Sunday school to hating. You know? It was just boring, and why am I here? So that's something I think that's something I think we get wrong, in terms of being creative and imaginative and inviting and fun, you know, with those kinds of things with kids.

Mitzi: 26:49

But for me, that sense of god's presence was always there, always cherished. And and I sort of, you know, stayed in that pathway and followed it along. And I had some significant experiences as a kid, as a member of a youth group, retreats, and, you know, camp kinds of things, that, yeah, that even if I went because I didn't have anywhere else to go. You know? Although, my kids, I usually you know?

Mitzi: 27:22

I enjoyed going. So it was it was easy for me when I began to have a sense of call to do this vocationally. Again, we often hear the story about, you know, the person that resisted and, no, I can't do that. I'm not worthy and, you know, all that stuff. And again, you know, I didn't I didn't have a sense of worthiness, but it was like, okay, sure.

Mitzi: 27:49

You know, it was, I had always loved I had always loved being in the youth group. I did not love study school. I think we had our children study school, but I love youth group. And, so, you know, that growing sense of do this, and I was like, okay. I loved it.

Mitzi: 28:11

And I was a youth minister to start with, as a matter of fact.

T. J.: 28:14

Oh, no kidding. Nope. Did you go did you go to college? Did you go to college with youth ministry

Mitzi: 28:20

in line? Yeah. I went to Auburn University. And right out of college, I served as a youth minister for 2 years before I went to seminary.

T. J.: 28:29

Okay.

Mitzi: 28:29

And when I went to seminary, I went to still be a youth minister. That's what I thought I was gonna do. And I hadn't been there long when I began you know, again, some things opened up. You know? There were other ministry possibilities and avenues for me to consider.

Mitzi: 28:52

And by the time I was finishing the, I, you know, had had lots of encouragement to consider doing a PhD. And at the time that I was doing it, there still weren't many women who were doing that kind of study. And that was like waving a red flag in front of a bull. You know? Don't tell me I can't do it.

Mitzi: 29:15

And so, I was you know, I love the idea, and and part of what was interesting, I mentioned that I had done this emerging thing and and again, which doesn't mean everything was rosy. I don't wanna give that impression. You know, I I struggled to make sense of a number of things that happened to me along the way and took my fist at God more than once, but but continued on this path. And then all of a sudden, when I was a grad student, I could finally name, I want to do this. I want to do a PhD in new testament, I want to teach new testament, and now all of a sudden I might not be able to.

Mitzi: 29:58

Because getting into PhD programs is actually quite hard. And what if they again? What if I don't do well on the entrance exams? What if I don't do well on the interview to to get in?

T. J.: 30:10

So let me interrupt you. So here you are in your early twenties, and you can actually put a name to the calling vocation profession. And but with it comes great uncertainty.

Mitzi: 30:24

Yes. Yes.

T. J.: 30:28

What a what a a tense intense filled state of being to be in.

Mitzi: 30:35

Well yeah. And and it was it was that. It was again, what if I don't get into the program? Mhmm. Getting in well, if I can't pass comprehensive exams, because they're awful, that's, like, almost legalized torture.

Mitzi: 30:50

You know, as far as I'm concerned. And and then finishing, as it turned out, the job market for PhDs is very, very difficult. And what if I didn't get a job? What if I didn't get an opportunity to do this thing that I felt very called to do? So, again, I've sort of painted this journey as kind of an emerging journey, which I think is fair, but I don't wanna say it was easier.

Mitzi: 31:21

You know, I was eating bonbons along the way or something. I don't even know what a bonbon is. I don't bite my hands into that. So we have to have to come up with something that I actually love and, stick instead of 5 bars.

T. J.: 31:36

Well, now now you could just pick, pretty much any sweet off the shelf is expensive. Your your bag of Oreos.

Mitzi: 31:43

That's right. Krispy Kreme donuts, you know.

T. J.: 31:50

So the the path was, you have this calling. You have affirmation, you have a profession that you're exploring that you want to fulfill, but with it comes the uncertainty. So let's talk about, kind of maybe people that were put in your path that, were encouraging to help you along the way, and also throw in some words of wisdom for the next person who has an emerging faith journey, what you would impart, to them. Granted, their journey, their path is gonna be a little bit different, but at least help them avoid those discouraging places where you and I both know a lot of great people who've checked some of those, but then just hadn't quite finished the mark, at least in terms of PhD work.

Mitzi: 32:48

Right.

T. J.: 32:49

Or or maybe they did, but then, find themselves in another field.

Mitzi: 32:54

Right. And I have I have friends who who finished and and well, some who didn't finish and then some who did, and and and they had to figure out other kinds of paths because a door for teaching, you know, didn't open for them. So, you know, I don't boy. Kinda words of wisdom. I don't know about that.

Mitzi: 33:15

I'll have to I'll let that run around the back while I I answer the first part of that. People who were a part of that, a part of my journey. You know, I had great friends. And, you know, we live in a time I heard this I heard this guy say once, it's been a number of years ago, in in an interview on television. I couldn't even tell you beyond that what it was.

Mitzi: 33:42

But he was talking about the ways in which culturally, again, we tend to focus on the great loves of our life. You know, all the love songs and music, you know, for example, the, you know, romance novels are like a multimillion dollar business, the romantic comedies, you know, for movies. And he said, and, you know, the reality is that those kinds of relationships for most of us come and go, but very often, friends are there for really long periods of time through the up ups and downs and all of that. I thought, you know, that's really true. Mhmm.

Mitzi: 34:15

And I I decided that day I was never gonna take my friends for granted. And and I I had great friends who were supportive during those years when I was trying to, not so much to figure it out, but to live through the what ifs. What if it doesn't work? What if I don't get in? What if, what if I can't get through comprehensive exams?

Mitzi: 34:38

What if I don't get a job? And so the what ifs were hard, you know, and it was a really scary part of that journey. And I had friends you know, who held my hand and were encouraging and who listened to me rant and rave. And so I I don't, I well, I don't take friends for granted, and I I hope, you know, that that was an important lesson for me to learn. And don't take your friends for granted, TJ, as as going, you know, through.

Mitzi: 35:11

But there's that, and then there were also the mentors Among the most significant was Molly Marshall, who was professor of theology at the seminary where I was. And again, in such she was the very first woman to have ever been hired on the theology faculty. So we're talking about that kind of time in history. Molly, you know, she was in my middle twenties, she was probably in her middle thirties. So she wasn't you know, she already accomplished, you know, you know, this and was this professor.

Mitzi: 35:52

And I just you know, I thought the world of her. And I had a so I had a moment. I you'll hear me you might hear me say I had a moment, you know, several different times, but I was in the middle of my dissertation. And for those who may not know, a dissertation is the last part of a PhD and it's essentially a book. And it and there are whole lots of stuff that has to be just so, and it's it's a it's a challenge, you know, to to get, you know, to get through one.

Mitzi: 36:26

And I was kind of in the middle of mine. So I had written and and and we're talking 370 or so pages. So in the middle of that is, you know, I've written a 160 or 70 or something like that. And I met with my dissertation supervisor, whom I love to this day, think the world of, but he pointed out in these two chapters, and at this point, I I think I was in the 4th chapter, but the 4th chapter was a lot better than the 3rd chapter. And and so, you know, he wanted me to talk with him about why the 4th chapter was so much better, what what what was I doing, what was my thinking or something.

Mitzi: 37:12

And I don't know if I've got the exact it may not have been 3rd, 4th. I don't remember now, but you get the idea. Yeah. And in the first of that conversation, I I began to realize what the problem was with with this other work, and that was the good news. The bad news was that meant I was gonna have to go back and redo that work that had gone to this point.

Mitzi: 37:37

And I walked out of his office just, you know, like I've been run over by a truck.

T. J.: 37:45

Right. And for context, this this is what you're eating, drinking, dreaming. I mean, this is it this is your all consuming, process, especially at this point. So you you've got your outline, you're halfway through, and to know that you're gonna have to go back and and rework not just paragraphs, but chapters.

Mitzi: 38:13

Yeah. And still have the other half to do. Right. That was so so instead of having one mountain to climb, you know, the rest of the dissertation, I now had 2. You know?

Mitzi: 38:23

And I had to go redo this and still had this to write, and it it felt bigger than I could do. I was, you know, I was tired. I was tired of being a student. You know, I was tired of living on how students live. You know?

Mitzi: 38:41

I was I was just done. And for about a week, I I couldn't sleep. I couldn't make sense out of anything. It was it was a I did a lot of staring, you know, at a, you know, computer screen, you know, kind of, you know, like this. Yeah.

Mitzi: 38:59

And finally and for whatever reason, I remember it was a Tuesday night, and I remember that it was about 10 PM. Because and I guess that's stuck because normally, you don't call a professor at 10 PM on a Tuesday night. You know? But I did. I called Molly.

Mitzi: 39:15

I mentioned Molly Marshall is my professor, and I called Molly on Tuesday night. And I called first thing I said was, I'm sorry for calling you so late. And, you know, she was I guess she knew I wouldn't have called her if it weren't important, you know, like that.

T. J.: 39:31

And she

Mitzi: 39:31

so she was like, what is it? Tell me what it is. And I told her. I said, you know, here's the situation. And I said, and I feel like I'm never gonna finish.

Mitzi: 39:40

I can't it's too big. I can't do this. I'm never gonna finish. I'm never gonna get a job. I'm never gonna get a chance to do this thing I wanna do.

Mitzi: 39:47

And I just sort of, you know, I almost I almost wanna say vomited all that out because I've been, you know, stressing over for a week. Mhmm. And and she let me do all that, get all that out. And then she said, in calmest voice to this day I've ever heard, she said, you must remember that the one who called you is faithful. And she said some other things, you know, but that's that was the piece I needed to hear.

Mitzi: 40:23

And I just I could feel the tension just, you know, run out of my body. You know? And I don't know how long I was on the phone with her. It wasn't terribly long, but when I hung up, I went to sleep the first time in a week.

T. J.: 40:42

Oh, wow.

Mitzi: 40:43

And, and the next morning, I got up and got started on the work I needed to do to complete this thing that I had begun. And, boy, that's you know, I have said that to other students since then, me now being sort of in Molly's role. And I have said, you must remember, the one who called you is faithful. And, I have clung to that, all of my all of my journey, you know, for sure, and I can hear Molly's voice.

T. J.: 41:14

Alright. To play the devil's advocate just for fun, I think as your former student, the timing would be important for me to be able to hear that.

Mitzi: 41:28

I think if you would share

T. J.: 41:29

that with me, I might throw it right back at you going, I already know that, but it isn't it isn't, I'm not there yet.

Mitzi: 41:39

Or that may not be the the thing you need to hear in that particular moment, which puts a lot of responsibility on the person who's in the pastoral role to be listening very deeply. What is it, you know, in that moment? You know, sometimes somebody needs to be to be given very warm and positive and encouraging words like, you know, Molly gave to me. And sometimes, you know, you almost need the Olympia Dukakis and moon you know, what was the name? What was it?

Mitzi: 42:21

Where she goes, snap out of it. You know, like that. I mean, sometimes, you know, that's the word you need to hear. Let's go. You know, step out of it.

T. J.: 42:28

I don't know which is funnier, the the Dukakis reference, or or that you're dating yourself.

Mitzi: 42:36

I know. Ain't it awful? I I really need to stop right now. So, that's a scary thought, how I can do that, you say, by the way, without without even any effort. But, there's that.

Mitzi: 42:48

But, yeah, I but you're exactly right. That was for me absolutely the most life giving word I could hear in that moment.

T. J.: 43:02

Right.

Mitzi: 43:03

Right. But in another moment, like you said, I might have been like, you know, heck with that. I need I need help here. You know? But then, more in that moment, that was the word I needed to hear.

T. J.: 43:16

Absolutely. And I did originally ask you that question, like, terms of, you know, of wisdom. There there is an element of humility and that awareness of the person or persons that you're with. Where are they coming from? And are you providing a true, genuine listening ear

Mitzi: 43:36

Right.

T. J.: 43:37

To be able to gather a sense of where they're coming from?

Mitzi: 43:41

Yeah. I have, on a couple of occasions, said something to someone that was, let's say, very challenging. And almost the minute it comes out of my mouth, then it goes, oh, should I have said that? You know, that's a little terrifying.

T. J.: 44:03

I'm laughing because I can I can hear it as a student of yours, and that may not I'm not asking for the situation, but that's why I'm chuckling? I was like, oh, okay. I could hear that as a student. What what did you turn in, TJ? What this is not your best.

Mitzi: 44:22

Fortunately, TJ, I'm not sure I ever had to say that to you. So so that No. I'm glad for that. But I appreciate you not putting me in that position. I do not like to do that.

Mitzi: 44:35

So good for you.

T. J.: 44:38

I don't remember that either.

Mitzi: 44:40

If it was there, we'll both let it go and, there you go.

T. J.: 44:46

How did you get connected to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?

Mitzi: 44:52

I'm not a native. You probably, you know, knew that already, others didn't. I was reared Southern Baptist. Mhmm. And, and I a very curious part of of my journey is I we're Southern Baptist.

Mitzi: 45:10

My parents were Southern Baptist. My grandparents were Southern Baptist. My great grandparents were Southern Baptist as far as I know. Mhmm. And I I used to say that I was Southern Baptist the way a Jew was a Jew.

Mitzi: 45:27

It's almost my ethnicity. You're right? And, and so I went to seminary, the Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. Did the MDiv and PhD there. I was there a long time.

Mitzi: 45:41

Went there in 82 and graduated with the PhD in 90 89. I stayed there through until the summer of 90. And in all that time, I got to seminary at about the time that the fundamentalist takeover of the seminary had gotten into full swing. And the whole time that I was there, that was constantly in the background. And Southern was not fundamentalist.

Mitzi: 46:13

It was a place that encouraged people. They didn't use the language of being open, curious, and willing to be surprised. But that was the EPOS. That was the approach, you know, among faculty members. And so it was a it was a it was a marvelous place for me.

Mitzi: 46:35

Again, to broaden, as I I said earlier, that when I got there, I found out there was all this whole world I didn't know anything about. Whether it was literally the world or the new testament or theology or psychology and religion. I mean, I I got introduced to the mystical tradition, in the Christian church. I didn't even know it existed, you know, in my Southern Baptist church. Why?

Mitzi: 47:00

That was not part of the conversation. And, you know, so so this was a a really, you know, rich and and widening deepening environment, you know, for me.

T. J.: 47:13

And let me interrupt you just for a minute, for context, and you can flesh this out a bit more. So the, Southern Baptist in the the eighties, there was kind of a, from a theological and academic perspective, a shift more towards a conservative nature, so that there is a more kind of a a mono thought throughout the denomination in in his teachings and preparations for those in in ministry?

Mitzi: 47:47

It that that was what end up ended up happening. It it was the in the eighties and the early nineties, that was being resisted. And so it had not yet become as it is now, which is the ethos of the of the SBC is not just conservative. I I would actually call it fundamentalist, and and I make a distinction between being conservative and being fundamentalist because conservatives can absolutely be open, curious, and willing to be surprised. They have a particular theological outlook, but within that, it is you know, they may well, you know, have that kind of, you know, approach to things.

Mitzi: 48:31

Fundamentalist, not so much. They've got everything figured out already, and this becomes, the truth with a capital t, and everybody has toe the line. That's sort of the nature of fundamentalism, whether it's Christian, whether it's Jewish, whether it's Muslim fundamentalists, and, you know, the Taliban, you know, is a horrific example of Muslim fundamentalists. But, but that's sort of the nature of fundamentalism. And so this I don't think the same question that Southern Seminary, when I was there, could be described as conservative.

Mitzi: 49:05

By the way, the charge made by those who didn't like Southern, and they didn't like Southern Seminary precisely because it encouraged people to be open, curious, and willing to be surprised. And so, so it was it was very no question conservative, but this was the ethos. And so there was something ludicrous about fundamentalist, who were attacking some place like Southern Seminary because it was too liberal. Because for most people, you know, in, you know, in the larger, you know, US context, if you talk about Southern Baptist being liberal, if they know anything about, you know, church traditions, they would just laugh out loud. You know, Southern Baptist is not liberal.

Mitzi: 49:51

And I'm like, well, no. There's and they really aren't now. But that was, you know, the language that got used. You know, liberal became a, like, a 4 letter word, you know, with those days. Got, you know, fooling around and stuff.

Mitzi: 50:04

And I decided while I was there that I was going to stay and be a part of the resistance, if if it's okay to use that language, for as long as I could. But I I determined early on I was not going to be a casualty of this war. And about 90, about 1990, the fundamentalist had was were on the verge of having a 2 thirds majority on the board of trustees at Southern, which meant they really could flip it. And at that point, I thought, I'm done here. I said, I'm not gonna be a casualty of this war.

Mitzi: 50:45

And about that time, I was I had just finished the PhD, had degree at hand, was job hunting, and Bethel College called me. And they had had, their one of their professors of religion, they had 2, and one of them, Peter Hobby, had taken a job. He was he was PCUSA. And Peter had taken a position at an at a PCUSA college and left, and he did it fairly late in the year. So they were kinda scrambling, and to fill that position.

Mitzi: 51:26

And and I had applied for the same position Peter had applied that that he was hired for. And, so what happened was the dean at Bethel called that school and said, who was next on your list? And the guy there asked, does it have to be Cumberland Presbyterian? And, you know, and the dean said, not necessarily. And he got my name and he called.

Mitzi: 51:53

I had actually, by that point, had left the SBC and had become PCUSA. I had served in a PCUSA church as the associate pastor for about 3 years during my graduate school program, and I love that church. And so I had joined that church officially. So, anyway, the dean called, and he and I had a long conversation over the phone, and it was a really wonderful conversation. I knew nothing about Cumberland Presbyterian.

Mitzi: 52:25

So I hung up. I went to the library. We had the confession of faith in the library. I checked it out, took it home and read it, and I was really amazed by it. It's it's a beautifully written document, just beautifully written.

Mitzi: 52:41

And it and it has very distinct parameters. It's it is not remotely anything goes, But it allows for great conversation within those parameters. It allows, in my mind at least, to be open, curious, and willing to be surprised. And so I had actually had I had had questions about ordination in the PCUS nature. I wasn't sure I could do that.

Mitzi: 53:12

As a Southern Baptist, and and, you know, I was taught religious liberty and, freedom of conscience and those kinds of things. And the idea I was gonna have to promise loyalty to the book of order of the Presbyterian Church, I was like, if I can do that, you know? Criminal justice didn't have that. And having been a part of a huge denomination and seeing how little impact you could have, the idea of being a part of a smaller denomination actually had great appeal for me. So when Bethel called and then said, the only thing is you'd have to we want you to be chaplain, and if you're gonna do that, you'd have to be Cumberland Presbyterian.

Mitzi: 53:59

And so I I checked it out, And I said, I can do this. And ended up, you know, going under care of West Tennessee Presbyterian, and Jim Ratliff was the chair of the committee at that time, who became, you know, a good person for me and a a good leader, Margaret McKee. The the late wonderful Margaret McKee was on that committee and became a significant mentor in terms of being Cumberland Presbyterian. They require that I study Cumberland Presbyterian history and polity, and so, I drove to Memphis every other week for a while and met with, doctor Marilyn Hudson and learned Cumberland Presbyterian History and Theology and was ordained, in October of 1991, while still chaplain at Bethel College. So, and along the way, what I found out was I was wrong when I said that I was Southern Baptist like a Jew was a Jew.

Mitzi: 55:00

It was almost my ethnicity.

T. J.: 55:01

I found

Mitzi: 55:02

out I was wrong. That what I am is fundamentally I'm Christian. And and the other piece is, hopefully, a supportive and and rich and time tested tradition, but, fundamentally, what I am is Christian. And and that was an important lesson for me to learn, you know, as I was, you know, as I was taking this journey. I've always been very grateful for Cumberland Presbyterian to welcome me in.

Mitzi: 55:37

I remember very much the very first, ministers. It used to happen in January, but I don't think it hap I don't think they do it anymore. Pastors, meeting with denomination wise, and it came to Bethel the 1st year I was at Bethel.

T. J.: 55:57

Oh, like a minister's conference?

Mitzi: 55:59

Yeah. I guess it's just simply that, the minister's conference. I was trying to make it more complicated than that for some reason. But, I'm proud of the younger, my age folks, Mark Brown, Kip. I'm gonna pull Kip's name out.

Mitzi: 56:13

He's the chair of the board. But, yes. Yeah. Kip thank you. Kip Rush, Jay Earhart Brown, Chuck Brown, a whole bunch of those folks, you know, Eleanor, you know, and and stuff, who came and found me.

Mitzi: 56:28

And and they said, okay. We've heard about this new person who's the chaplain at Bethel. We need to check you out. And it was it was fabulous. You know, we went to work.

Mitzi: 56:36

I got to meet all of them. And Mhmm. And and they've been you know, we're supportive and have been all these years. And now Kip is the chair of the board at the seminary. Right?

Mitzi: 56:46

So who would have thought that way back in that day? So so, yeah, I've always been very grateful, calling the presentarians, for welcoming welcoming me in after what had become very painful experience in the tradition that really nurtured my faith. I mean, how sad is that? Right? They helped make me who I am, and then one day said, we don't want you anymore.

Mitzi: 57:12

That's, you know, that's that's a tough experience.

T. J.: 57:17

And here, you've been a Cumberland Presbyterian most of your life.

Mitzi: 57:20

Yeah. Yeah. Most of my adult life. Right? Exactly.

Mitzi: 57:22

Yeah. Didn't see that one coming, you know, in the back in the day.

T. J.: 57:29

Well, you have been at, Memphis Theological Seminary. It'll be 31 years this spring. How has the landscape of theological education changed?

Mitzi: 57:44

I don't know if we can be here teaching.

T. J.: 57:47

Well, okay. I'll narrow it down. How has it changed to where we are equipping women and men for ministry, with full confidence and, as they enter into those vocations.

Mitzi: 58:11

I'm trying to think if there's anything about the landscape of theological education that hasn't changed over the course of those years. And part of the reason that theological education has changed is because the church is changing. And, you know, if we are preparing men and women to answer calls from god to serve in church and world, that's actually our language, to serve church and world, and both the church and the world are changing around rapidly, then the way we do theological education is bound to change. It has to change. And and in ways, there's no way you could have anticipated this.

Mitzi: 58:58

And in fact, we're in the middle of change, and we don't know, you know, what it's gonna look like a decade out from now, to be honest with you.

T. J.: 59:08

And maybe maybe change isn't the right word. Maybe it's adapt. How how is our theological education adapting to the needs of the church of the local church? Maybe that's a better question as I as I pose it, and maybe it's not. Maybe we're in a space to where we are trying to articulate the question to begin with.

Mitzi: 59:37

Well and and I think I think that last part is probably more accurate because I think it's fair to say that as the church is changing, we don't know what the church is gonna look like in 10

T. J.: 59:47

years. Mhmm.

Mitzi: 59:48

And and what I mean by that is, I mean, you're well aware of all the statistics of the decline of primary, you know, denominational traditions and the growth of people, of of the category of folks who identify themselves as none. You know, that's become one of the almost cliche things, you know, now that people talk about. And so if you don't know, is the church, in other words, is it going to need pastors as we have been educating and preparing pastors? Is it going to need more community organizers and activists? You know, are we going to have more churches engaging their neighborhoods and and becoming more activist churches?

Mitzi: 01:00:35

Because the younger generation of folks is far more interested in doing the work of the gospel than than sort of hanging out within the walls of the church itself. Are we going to see the growth of more nonprofits, both associated with the church and doing some of that nuts and bolts work, but doing it with the support and leadership of the church. But that means we need folks who know about how you set up a non profit because there are legal hurdles there, you know, right and left, you know, for example. So is the church itself today? You know, we may we may need pastors now.

Mitzi: 01:01:28

You know, it used to be that that churches a certain size would have, you know, a pastor and then somebody maybe doing choir and somebody doing youth and children, maybe somebody doing senior adults. You know, churches may not be large enough to hire that many clergy. So you may have to have a pastor that can do more of all of that work. Whereas in the past, you know, pastors wanted primarily to preach and do pastoral care. That may not be what the future looks like.

Mitzi: 01:01:59

We may be educating far more by vocational pastures. How do we do that? How do we partner with with undergraduate institutions, for example? So that we have folks who are able to run a small business and also, you know, pastor of the small church, but do it really well, you know, with that. So because we don't know what the church is gonna look like, it's hard to know what theological education is gonna look like.

Mitzi: 01:02:30

So we're not just adapting as you said. We're sort of doing it on the fly, you know, as we do this. And, and it's it's a tough time, to be honest.

T. J.: 01:02:40

Well, I was okay. I was gonna say, it doesn't it make it exciting though because it's the experimentation of being able to go, alright. So maybe the context will, in terms of ministry will be this. And so let let's let's take this class period or this semester and kind of focus in on on this area where you may just be providing pastoral care, the word, and the sacraments for a season and not for a lifelong, commitment. And and what what could that look like?

T. J.: 01:03:20

But I I I say that as exciting that can also, you know, the flip side of that is be very fearful for people is, oh, well, that's not what it is currently.

Mitzi: 01:03:32

Well, it is it it is it is exciting. I'm hunting I'm hunting my, adjectives here. It's exciting. It's creative, but it's also it's also so uncertain. So, for example, suppose we, you know, we were to create a program to prepare people to run nonprofits and that isn't where things go.

Mitzi: 01:03:59

And then you put a lot of resources at a time when your resources are small. And and and so, you know, you you go, what do we do with it? I mean, in in terms of that ends up being a bad, quote, business decision, you know, as you're trying to survive that. We're dealing with, as education is everywhere, the whole issue of online stuff. And we're doing it in terms of our teaching and learning, but we're also talking about what how is that gonna play in church?

Mitzi: 01:04:32

You know, what what does it mean, in church settings if we're going to stream services, live stream services and stuff so people don't have to be there, what does that even mean anymore in terms of church? It's it's one thing if you're sick and I can't be present this Sunday. So, yay, the service is available to me. It's another thing. I I went recently and taught, Sunday morning program at a local church in Memphis, and they had some folks zooming in.

Mitzi: 01:05:04

One of them was in Arizona. And, you know, I I'm assuming that woman had sort of scoured the Internet, found this church in Memphis that was doing something she was interested in, and so she joined right in and they they all said hello and how are things in Arizona. You know? Stuff like that. But, you know, if she's sick, nobody in that group can take her suit.

T. J.: 01:05:26

Yeah.

Mitzi: 01:05:27

You know? If if if if she has, you know, has an awful has has a relationship in and she's just, you know, grieving out of that, they can't go hold her hand.

T. J.: 01:05:42

Yeah.

Mitzi: 01:05:42

They can't sit with her and, you know, and let her literally put her head on their shoulders and cry. You know? So what does that mean? And and, you know, and and church is trying to figure that out. And the seminary is trying to figure out how to prepare people to serve churches that are gonna be asking those kind of questions.

T. J.: 01:06:03

So I believe maybe maybe now the larger question is what what is community?

Mitzi: 01:06:10

Right.

T. J.: 01:06:10

Because you could ask that without asking, you know, what is the church? Can I have community with somebody in another state, and what will that look like? And is it just as good or even better than the 1 on 1 interaction, let's say, across a table or in the living room or, you know, in a driveway or a parking lot? Yeah. Will that be the equivalent?

T. J.: 01:06:36

And I think the answer is to be determined. It depends.

Mitzi: 01:06:42

Right. And and that it's the depend part that we're we're trying to figure out. Yeah. Because the the data is actually it, which is that virtual, digital interactions are not the same. No.

Mitzi: 01:06:59

And and and people need touch, and they need physical presence. And so how do you how do you do that church now where people you know, we've become a culture where we do things because it's easy and convenient, not because it's really good. You know, I have you know, right, you know, right, that we we all know that. You know? I'll I'll just stay home and livestream the service today or at at the seminary.

Mitzi: 01:07:30

My students have an option of coming to class or Zooming in the class. And, you know, the ones that are far distant, you understand the whole Zooming thing. Mhmm. But I have students sometimes they're 5 minutes away. Zoom in the class.

Mitzi: 01:07:49

That's what I go. Get your rear end over here. You know? Because you will probably remember the importance, not just of of of being in class, but it's what happens before and after class and during bullying.

T. J.: 01:08:03

Yeah. When

Mitzi: 01:08:04

you're talking with people and, you know, you you walk out to your car talking about, can you believe doctor Minor just said this? And, you know, that conversation, or who's going to lunch today? Or, you know, those kinds of personal interactions that are so much a part of what it means to be human, and we're losing those.

T. J.: 01:08:27

I I've thought about this. I've I've thought about this from, you know, the more local church. But Right. Yeah, with, like, a program of alternate studies in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and at seminary, my experiences will be different than those that are now 20 years into the future. So to to say that that, you know, since I experienced it, it must be right.

T. J.: 01:08:56

But I do believe that we have to collectively, we have to be able to kind of test it. Is this Zoom recording, the same and or better than if we were in the same room? Well, you know, for me personally, I know that it's not, but this is what's available to us. But I think we have to almost experiment the individual aspect to recapture the worth of community.

Mitzi: 01:09:29

Yeah. And and and I would add to that. Reminding ourselves to value not just what's convenient, but what is healing and renewing and deeply satisfying so that what is convenient becomes a supplement. When I can't be there, I can still do this.

T. J.: 01:09:55

Right.

Mitzi: 01:09:55

But but how how do we for me at least, the issue of value and what we value really needs to sort of rise to the surface. Our dean had a, interesting conversation. He was talking with some students on Zoom who were griping because so many of their parishioners had not come back to worship after COVID, but they were Zooming into the service. And then they said, hello. And it hadn't even dawned on them that they were doing the same thing

T. J.: 01:10:31

Mhmm.

Mitzi: 01:10:31

You know, with regard to their class. So it it raises a real interesting question. You just said, how do we define community? I'm actually not afraid of raising it. How do we define church?

T. J.: 01:10:42

Yeah.

Mitzi: 01:10:43

You know, what does it mean for us to be church together, And and what do we value? And then and then here becomes this thing, if we value it, and how do we live into what we value? Because, you know, again, you know and I know that the sharpest criticism of the church is that we say this, but we do this. You know, we're both Democrats. Right?

Mitzi: 01:11:11

We all know that. And here's an opportunity for us not to be that. An opportunity to say, you know, caring about each other, knowing each other, the informal conversations you have before and after church, the, hey, who wants to go watch After church kind of things that happened. But those things really, really matter, and so we're we're going to show up for those things. And not not but, but and this is gonna be possible for those days when we can't.

T. J.: 01:11:47

Mhmm.

Mitzi: 01:11:47

Or, you know, it I don't know. I mean, I'm just I'm like you. Like I said a minute ago, you're thinking off the top of your head. That's what I'm doing as well because this conversation is ongoing. What I do think is exciting is the conversation itself.

T. J.: 01:11:59

Yeah.

Mitzi: 01:12:00

I think we need to be engaged in this con

T. J.: 01:12:03

Yeah. And and I find it exciting. Also, I I I may be cutting a lot of grace. I I often think that we collectively that maybe we we when we move, we move kind of childlike clumsily. Yeah.

T. J.: 01:12:18

And I don't mean just a Christian church. I just kind of mean as humanity, and we have found something new and shiny, and we've sort of waddled over to it because it's attracted to it. And so what we're doing is we're trying out, can I do this on my own, in this much more convenient? I don't have to wear pants to work or what whatever it is that

Mitzi: 01:12:39

folks need to do. I got my sweatpants on. Right?

T. J.: 01:12:42

But but after after that, the shininess, you know, it it it's not quite as filling as we thought it might be. It won't ever go away because it does scratch an itch. Right. But, and then we'll clumsily kinda waddle over to the, you know, off balance, you know, but our eyes are focused on whatever the new shiny thing may be. Again, that's community, and we'll leave some of that behind.

T. J.: 01:13:11

And we'll revisit the favorites, the meaningful. So I I think as a as a creation as a whole, I'm cutting a lot of slack, and my metaphor is just as clumsy as the baby that we are, the toddler that we are. But I I think that there's a little bit of truth to that is, we will and we are, we have not lost the sense of being in the presence of another human being. There's no replacement for that.

Mitzi: 01:13:49

There really is not. And and and what I would add to that is that we view this exactly in the journey. Mhmm. You know, that we don't you know, when we went around this corner, we didn't know that the road ahead was gonna look like this. Yeah.

Mitzi: 01:14:07

And the important thing is not to stop the journey, and and to to continue to you know, so you you know, you go down this way for a while and then you go, we need to turn here.

T. J.: 01:14:17

Mhmm. And that's where the humility comes in, though.

Mitzi: 01:14:20

Humility is a great word right there. Right.

T. J.: 01:14:22

To to be able to go, oh, we do need to make this turn. We do need to slow down or speed up, or we need to do the 180 and and go back to that fork in the road and kinda look

Mitzi: 01:14:36

Alright. And and go different direction. Right? Maybe. I think, again, if I can use the phrase I've used before, we need to be open, curious, and willing to be surprised as opposed to we've got it all figured out.

Mitzi: 01:14:47

Yeah. And your point about humility, I think, is spot on. And then if I would add one more thing to to dealing with this, it's the keeping in my in terms of the church, that the important thing is that this is a spiritual journey, and and how do we do gospel work? How do we join with god in god's renewing work in the world in this time in which we find ourselves. If we can keep that, that's essentially how we what we you know, so I'm gonna go about values.

Mitzi: 01:15:21

You know? What do we value? And and if we if if we are if if we honestly value the relationship with God, which according to the new testament will always involve relationships with one another. Always. Mhmm.

Mitzi: 01:15:34

You cannot escape those. You know, there's no accident that Jesus says there are 2 great commandments. You love God with all you got and you love one another. You love, you know, your neighbor as yourself. So if we keep this a spiritual journey, for all of our falling by the wayside and making long term, we'll come back to this place that takes us where we need to go.

Mitzi: 01:16:00

And so for me, that's become uppermost as I look at seminary, you know, and us trying to figure out you know, what this looks like. How how do we continue to do this work to which all of us there feel deeply called Mhmm. In a time when this is changing so rapidly, it it really is hard to keep pace. You know, the only thing I know to do is to remind myself that the one who called us is faithful, and the journey goes on. And to keep, you know, that ever before me and, and to keep that you know, taking those steps on that journey.

Mitzi: 01:16:45

However, thinking what I wanna go is, I liked seminary about 12 years ago. I really I wasn't teaching online. I didn't didn't have to do a learning management system. I didn't have, you know, I really liked it, which by the way is true. I really did like that.

Mitzi: 01:17:04

But, you know, what's that gonna do for me, you know, to to do that, to to scream about that? Because that's gone. You know? You know, here I am now, and and how do I how do I continue my journey? How do I practice my vocation?

Mitzi: 01:17:20

How do I answer God's call in this context? Because whether I wanted to be here or not, this is where the journey is brought. And so do I journey on now or no?

T. J.: 01:17:31

Right. And, you know, from a student's point of view, a future student's

Mitzi: 01:17:36

point

T. J.: 01:17:37

of view is how do I gain access to those who have insight and can help prepare me for this vocation that I'm exploring?

Mitzi: 01:17:48

Right. And Right. And and that I wanna tell students to keep that ever in mind.

T. J.: 01:17:55

Right.

Mitzi: 01:17:55

It's not it's not what's convenient or easy again. That just boy, that just comes up so often. But what is your call from god? What is this journey that you're on? What makes this journey deep and rich and and wide and and, you know, and fulfilling?

Mitzi: 01:18:15

And and ask yourself those questions going forward. And how do you how do you not only fulfill your own journey, but become part of the journeys of others? And, again, I'm willing to bet that was true for you as a student. Mhmm. You know, you know, the the your classmates and those conversations in the hallways and, out in the parking lot.

Mitzi: 01:18:37

I used to crack up when I'd come out of class in little clusters in the parking lot, You know? It's just and, and that becomes part of not just your own journey, but being a part of enhancing somebody else's journey as well. And that's part of our goal. You know, there's a reason we do this together.

T. J.: 01:18:57

To think that you right. Yeah. That's what I was about to say. To say that it to think that I would trek on my own is that well, that's a fallacy. I mean, that

Mitzi: 01:19:09

Exactly. Not even possible, probably. Right? Oh. Exactly.

T. J.: 01:19:14

No. To but, again, that comes back to that humility, that to think, oh, well, the achievements, the accomplishments, and and even the mistakes and the failures, those have never been in isolation ever. And how boring it would be to not have those to share with others.

Mitzi: 01:19:38

Right. And nor did you get up when you've been knocked down or recovered from a bad moment without somebody there.

T. J.: 01:19:47

Right.

Mitzi: 01:19:47

Who's either kicking you in the pants, if that's what you need in the moment, or, you know, who is, you know, picking you up and, you know, cleaning your wounds and, you know, giving you some Advil and telling you you can do this. You know, you're not you're not quit. I mean, you probably had I've had people that said to me, you're not quit. You know, we're we're going ahead. And That

T. J.: 01:20:11

that that kind of takes us full circle to where we began our conversation of where do we find the new testament, the the intersections Testament with, where we are in the 21st century. You know, they're applying aid to an injury is not new news.

Mitzi: 01:20:33

Right. Yeah.

T. J.: 01:20:36

Sharing food with someone who is hungry is not a novelty.

Mitzi: 01:20:43

Bearing one another's burdens is not yeah. That's not a new idea.

T. J.: 01:20:47

Right? Right. Let's close out with a fun question.

Mitzi: 01:20:53

Okay.

T. J.: 01:20:56

What's your favorite mystery novel? I hit you with that one cold. All these questions have been cold, but I don't know why this one

Mitzi: 01:21:07

Well, you may know because I may well have said it in class that I'm a mystery novel fanatic. Mhmm. And so, probably, if I had to choose Well, it's easier for me to say who my favorite mystery novelists are, and the 2 of them would be Louise Penny, who writes the 3 Pines series, and Laurie King, who writes Mary Russell. And then but if I had to pick favorite novel, oh, wow, TJ, I'm not even sure I can. But those 2 novelists are absolutely my favorite novelist.

Mitzi: 01:21:49

I think they are they're not only they don't it they do mystery novels that are either they're puzzle like. They're not violent. They're not blood and gore. They're not, you know, that kind of nasty stuff. Sorry about my phone doing that.

Mitzi: 01:22:06

You know, it it's it's more puzzle like and, you know, this how do you figure this stuff out? And and then they have great characters. So for me, reading a good novel is about going and hanging out with this person or persons as the case may be. And and I don't wanna hang out if I don't like the person. You know?

Mitzi: 01:22:26

So so I don't care if it's the the coolest puzzle ever. If I don't wanna hang out with the people involved, I'm not gonna be interested. And they they write great characters. You know. I always think I'd like this person to be my best friend.

Mitzi: 01:22:40

So

T. J.: 01:22:40

Alright. Well, okay. So let me try with another question then. Pertaining to the mystery, what, briefly, what would be like the biggest moment or surprise that you have read in in a novel, like a like a twist, like a a crime that was solved, or a puzzle that was unraveled?

Mitzi: 01:23:03

Well, my favorite of those and it and it's another of my favorite writers, but it's not gonna be quite like that. What this writer does is, and and in the very first novel that kicks off the series, you don't figure this out till about halfway through, but Sherlock Holmes is actually a woman. And what she does is there's this woman whose name is Charlotte Holmes. In the time, Sherlock Holmes, so when Arbicona Doyle did this in the late 1800, you know, kinda thing. And nobody would ever, hire a woman as a private detective in that time.

Mitzi: 01:23:47

So she invents Sherlock Holmes, but he's ill. And so nobody can meet him, and she's the mediator between them and him, though he but she's actually the person that does all the stuff.

T. J.: 01:24:02

Okay.

Mitzi: 01:24:03

And, I know it's great. Her name is Charlotte Holmes, and and she but her brain works just like Sherlock Holmes does. You know, it's very logical and analytical and, you know, she's you know, like he does. You know, you can look at somebody's boots and tell everything about their life story. So that was a great twist, you know, on a on a, you know, a classic character in, you know, in Disney.

T. J.: 01:24:26

Yeah. Did she have her own Moriarty?

Mitzi: 01:24:30

Yes. Actually, she does. And his name is Moriarty, actually, in the story. And she has an assistant who is the widow of a doctor whose name was John Watson. And her sister, is the one who who writes the novels that become the Sherlock Holmes novel.

Mitzi: 01:24:54

Okay. So her sister is the Arthur Conan Doyle kind of person, you know, like that. So it it's perfect. I mean, it this it's perfect what she's done. All the pieces, you know, were there.

Mitzi: 01:25:04

You know? It's just it's fabulous.

T. J.: 01:25:07

Alright. That's that's pretty cool. Doctor Minor, thank you for giving me your afternoon. It didn't feel like it, but you did give me your afternoon.

Mitzi: 01:25:17

Well, it yeah. Thank you, TJ. Thanks for the, opportunity. Thanks for the conversation. I I am, I'm somebody who enjoys good conversation

T. J.: 01:25:26

Mhmm.

Mitzi: 01:25:28

And and believe in in them, you know, that because inevitably, you know, you you you have a greater connection, you know, with folks when you have good conversations, and I'm delighted to be reconnected with you. And, and so thanks for the invitation and for allowing me to be a part. So and and, look, best best wishes as this continues and goes forward. Okay?

T. J.: 01:25:50

I I will thank you so much. I I feel privileged with every guest. I've been doing this for a while, and it it everyone I get to know the individual better, and it it is I sort of lose time and space, and and what a privilege to be able to hear somebody's journey, and then the double privilege of being able to share it, you know, with others. So that however people listen to Cumberland Road or a podcast, they can do it on their own, their own time, skip it, stop it, what whatever it is, that ability, but, I don't know. It's just a it it really is.

T. J.: 01:26:35

It's a real privilege privilege to be able to to hear it and to be able to see the other person, and it can't be repeated, but it's not like we don't ever try. Right. Which is kind of cool too. It was like, oh, I have to meet with her or him again because I want to recapture that or continue a conversation, and and build upon that momentum. I don't know.

T. J.: 01:27:02

I don't even have proper words to describe, but it certainly is fun. It's a privilege, and I I enjoy doing this until I'm not supposed to do it anymore.

Mitzi: 01:27:13

Yeah. That's right. That's right. Well, good for you. And and, again, I'm really glad to have gotten to be a part.

Mitzi: 01:27:18

Thank you so much.

T. J.: 01:27:21

Thank you for listening to this faith journey on Cumberland Road. If you haven't already, check out the previous guest on the podcast to hear their wonderful journeys. Here, I will leave you with words from doctor Miner's book, The Power of Story. Good stories are powerful. They touch a deep spiritual place in our lives, reminding us of who we are and from whence we have come. They help us along our way to remember what it means to be authentically human. Many of these good stories may be called sacred stories as they heed the presence of God that hides in every breath, word, sound, and silence. In doing so, they offer us a sense of resolution and truth. They also relate our failures, lacks, and losses, thus unsettling us by making us face the ragged edges of our lives. But then, they sustain us with illumination and heal us. And so good stories call us to come home to ourselves. Thanks for listening.