Cumberland Road

T.J.: 00:02

Here is The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. The following is a faith conversation between 2 people who like to talk. Nick Chambers is a Cumberland Presbyterian minister serving the Camden and Walkerville congregations in Arkansas while owning and operating a trucking company and raising 6 children with his wife, Andrea. Nick shares with me his life journey, stopping at pivotal moments in his growing up years, his life in the church, parenting, and his ministry. Nick has lived an interesting life. So, dear friend, here is my faith conversation with Nick Chambers.

T.J.: 01:05

Nick, let let us start with, a different kind of question and talk about the different and unique jobs that you've had. So I'll start, and then you can you can add to the list. At least, I'll start with the ones that I know. You're a minister. You were a bus driver at one time. You, at one point, repaired smartphones, truck driver, heavy equipment, operator. Alright. Start filling in the other different jobs that you've had over the years.

Nick: 01:41

Okay. Let's let's start at the beginning.

T.J.: 01:44

Okay. Alright.

Nick: 01:46

The the first job I ever got paid for, my dad, was in log and they had trucks, and, they needed somebody to clean trucks. That was my first paid job, cleaning trucks in and out and washing them.

T.J.: 02:02

Mhmm. So the cab and

Nick: 02:04

Yeah. Inside the cab. Me and my brother both started doing it, and he didn't he didn't like it much, so I wound up with his. They had 4 trucks, and we started cleaning the cabs. I think I paid $10.

Nick: 02:13

We'd vacuum them out and, you know, unroll the dash and windows just on the inside. $10 a truck. So I was probably in 8th grade, 7th, 8th grade, making $40 a week. Mhmm. Vacuuming up cigarette ashes out of the floor, because drivers just, you know, flick them in the floor, and it's pretty nasty.

Nick: 02:35

But, I had $40 in 8th grade a week adds up. And so I did that for a while, and then I graduated to actually wash them, and that that's the nastiest job in the world. Like in the wintertime, I mean, we're talking 4 hours probably for 1 truck. Mhmm. And you'd be soaking wet, mud everywhere.

Nick: 02:54

So that's my beginning to the workforce. You know? But it's good money. I'd always wanted to work for my dad. I've been attracted to heavy equipment, log, and all that stuff from a little kid.

Nick: 03:09

You know? And so that was it's my next thing. In the summers, I would go out and help my dad. They always had a extra piece of equipment, a scooter or something, and he'd put me in it. And, you know, that was, everybody else is goofing off all summer, and, I was I was in the woods working.

Nick: 03:26

And really I thought that's all I would ever do. Kind of my life was geared that way. And I I actually had had planned on going to college out of high school. I wanted to get a ag business major, and, you know, I was taking this thing on and kinda shifted gears my senior year and wound up going to Diesel College in Nashville. Mhmm.

Nick: 03:50

Because that's something else, I guess, a passion. I love fixing stuff, tearing stuff apart. And, so I did that. And since I graduated, I went to work for my dad, and, I was happy. I was, you know, 20 years old, and my dad gave me a lot of responsibility quick.

Nick: 04:09

You know? I mean, it wasn't long I started hiring people and managing whatever went on and kinda give him a vacation. He would just show up to work, you know, and let me do all the nitty gritty, you know. And, he basically just

T.J.: 04:22

He was at home watching Scooby Doo.

Nick: 04:24

Oh, no. He was at work. He came to work, for the most part, but he did, at some point, I was probably my goal was like by the time I was 25 to run the whole thing, and he would've hurt his back. He was off about 6 months, and, I was probably 23 or so. And and I just kept it going.

Nick: 04:45

It's like it never missed a beat. And so it was kind of the pinnacle of my life. You know? I just, I was married and had a family going, and, you know, like, here I am doing my thing. And, I surrendered the ministry.

Nick: 05:01

So I might get into some of that later. But, I surrendered the ministry, and so started working 2 jobs and, filling in at churches and doing all this and kinda began to see God had gifted me in a lot of other areas, not just, you know, working the wood. Mhmm. And, eventually, went full time ministry, and I learned real quick that full time ministry in a small rural church is tough on a young family. So, man, I just started picking up jobs and learning to do stuff.

Nick: 05:33

And, so, yeah, I fixed phones, and that was that was a challenge too, and very and I quit and I retired a few years ago. I did. I cracked my iPad at church. Somebody knocked it off, and then I cracked my iPad. I put a new screen on it to the day.

Nick: 05:50

It was the first time I'd opened one up in probably 3 years. Mhmm. But, so I did that for a while. When we're in Mississippi, one of the elders, they all drove school bus because, you can get on school insurance. And so I, well, I got a CDL.

Nick: 06:12

You know, I could drive a bus. And, I wound up having to go you actually have to take another test to drive a bus. And, I took the test, and, the guy, he's like, man, you want a job? I was like, really? I was just doing this to fill in.

Nick: 06:27

No. We need bus drivers. I did that. And I got to be around the kids more, and I was like, you know what? There's gotta be some way to get into school.

Nick: 06:35

And so, I signed up to sub at the school, and I'm a tell you, I hated school. I was I was a terrible student. I'm an outdoors guy. I love being outdoors. And so growing up, like, I hated to be, you know, pinned down in a classroom.

Nick: 06:56

And then the first day I showed up to sub, I was like, all my grown up years, I was trying to get away from this place, and here I am back in school. And and God bless substitute teachers because they don't pay anything either. I mean, it was it was basically, it was a mission field for me just to get around kids. I knew a lot of the kids from the community we lived in already, but, I don't I don't know how most of them do. But, usually, they would just give the kids an assignment, and so I just tell them what to do.

Nick: 07:29

And I'm not a rule guy either. I don't have all these, you know, raise your hand, whatever. I mean, it's you know, it was chill when I was there. And before I knew it, like, all these kids would bring their chairs up to my desk and just pour their heart out and talk about the things they were doing and shouldn't be doing. And, and I had a bigger ministry, it felt like, going on at school Southern than than anywhere.

T.J.: 07:52

Yeah.

Nick: 07:53

And I did that for a little while, but, it's some more things changed in our life, and so I I quit doing it. But that that was a more interesting jobs, just just because the kids, man, are so open. I mean, they they would tell you if they're doing something wrong, I mean, I mean, from spilling their stories of getting drunk on the weekends to know, doing other things they shouldn't been doing. And I would just try to counsel them, and, I was just amazed that they're so free to tell me what they're doing. You know?

T.J.: 08:27

Yeah. I wonder what happens to us as we get older, we become more secretive, more

Nick: 08:33

Yeah.

T.J.: 08:33

Protective of of who we are and and how we share that with others.

Nick: 08:40

Yeah. That, I think when you explode on them, because that's what that's what adults do. We blow up. You know? And I would just listen to them, and I wouldn't say a whole lot at first, and they would just keep opening it up.

Nick: 08:53

You know? And I'd finally, you know, okay. Let's let's talk. You know? So I did that a while.

Nick: 09:00

I even I had some people at the church I was at that really got upset I was doing it. I never understood that because I we're paying you to be the pastor, not subbing at school. You know? Mhmm. As a way, I'm surrounded by teenagers and all this, and they're flocking to me.

Nick: 09:17

A lot of them are coming to our church on Wednesday night too. I was like, this is ministry. You know? I'm getting paid $40 a day to be here, and it's kind of a joke. You know?

Nick: 09:27

But, you know, what better mission field? So I did that. Kinda transitioned then into, mowing yards and stuff. That worked. I didn't really like it, but I just I I was never the clean-cut grass yard guy.

Nick: 09:48

And so here I am trying to make everybody else's yard look like that. But I did that a while. I washed, I had a pressure washer from logging days, and so I fixed it back up. And I washed some houses and cars and, you know, just little odd jobs, man. Whatever I could find to do, I would do.

T.J.: 10:12

What kind of side hustles do you have going now?

Nick: 10:15

Man, I'm I'm out of the side hustle business. Alright. I like that. That that was kind of one of the reasons I came back to, to home was because, a church had offered me a job being part time. And it was kinda like when I was full time in ministry, I always had to have a side job.

Nick: 10:35

Even when I was in Mississippi, I drove drove a truck for a guy, actually, for a little bit, pulling flatbed. And, I'm I'm probably a workaholic. And so it was like, he was friends with a guy at our church, and, he's like, you ever missed driving a truck? And I've probably been out of truck 7, 8 years. And I was like, yeah.

Nick: 10:54

Sometimes. And he's like, man, I got these big, nice Kenworths. He said, man, I need somebody every now and then to drive, an hour down the road, pick up a trailer, and bring it back. He said, would you be interested in doing that? I was like, oh, yeah.

Nick: 11:06

I can do that, man. Mhmm. And, next thing I knew, I was working 4 days a week. I wouldn't work on Wednesday, but Tuesday Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, I would work for him. And, man, he just kept getting me further and further out and further and further out, and I was like, dude, I I do still have responsibilities.

Nick: 11:24

And the, one of our kids, our 5th kid, I think right before he's born, I finally quit that. I was like, guys, my wife needs a little help. You know, I'm I'm gone. I was leaving the house at 2 AM and driving 4 hours, turn around and be back. I'll be back home by lunch.

Nick: 11:41

And then I was doing whatever I do for the church the rest of the day. And, man, I was

T.J.: 11:46

just day.

Nick: 11:47

I was at I think I did it from September to May because he was born in May. And, I was like, I can't keep doing this. Yeah. But, it was fun, you know. It it gave me an opportunity to meet other people.

Nick: 11:59

And I guess all my jobs I've had since I've been in the ministry are, yeah, a little bit about making some side money, but a lot about just running into regular people. When you're pastoring a church, people, like, they they build this wall in front of you, and it's like, you're the preacher. You know? Yeah. And so, like, even being in the school with the kids, I mean, I didn't look like a preacher.

Nick: 12:26

You know? I mean, I was dressed, but not you know, a tie and a coat and all that. Right. And I drive a truck. I wear overalls.

Nick: 12:33

You know? And people would really open up to you more. And, like, I was building all these different relationships with these side hustle jobs that I'm just thinking I don't make enough money to to pay all the bills, so I'm side hustling. And, like, at the same time, I'm running into people who need to hear about Jesus, you know, need to somebody to talk to. When I drove the school bus, when I first started, the person who quit got in a fight with one of the students on the bus.

Nick: 13:05

Mhmm. And they didn't tell me that. They just need a bus driver. And so

T.J.: 13:09

No backstory.

Nick: 13:11

Oh, man. So I so I wound up driving that bus and, for about a year, and it was the worst route in the district. I mean, my second week on the job, I had a second grader, I mean, dropping f bomb after f bomb. And, you know, just they were into it was a mess. And, the next summer, the guy said, hey.

Nick: 13:33

We got a handicap route open. He said, would you be interested in driving a handicap bus? I said, man, I'll be honest. I've never been around handicapped people, so I don't I don't know anything about it. I'm not scared, but I just I don't know anything.

Nick: 13:47

He said, well, you have a monitor. All you have to do is drive. I could drive. And so, he paid a little more. And with the, with the insurance with the school, you basically if you add your family, it takes everything you make in a month to pay your family's side, because the school pays for yours.

Nick: 14:12

And but if you miss one day, you have to pay them money. And so with the handicap, it paid a little more. So if I had to miss a day, like if I had a hospital visitation or some something happened, with the church and I missed it, I didn't have to pay any extra. So it's kinda good. Yeah.

Nick: 14:27

And, well, then I wound up having somebody who was forced to sit right beside me, you know, whoever my monitor was, and they basically took care of the kids. And, I did more counseling on that job then because well, it was 2 hours in the morning, 2 hours in the evening. You know? And so I had somebody stuck with me. And, at first, it was some younger people, and then one of an an older lady, you know, and it was just, you know, she would pour a heart out every day everything that was going on, and her her life was falling apart, you know, and

T.J.: 15:01

It's 20 hours a week. I mean, you have a lot of time to be able to get to do one another.

Nick: 15:07

So yeah. And and the last one I had, she wound up coming to church, where we're at. So it's kinda neat how God opens those things up, you know, and Yeah.

T.J.: 15:17

Yeah. Same here in my ministry, having those side hustles, or secular work or bivocational, whatever phrase you wanna use, all of them probably fit to some degree or another. It really, as a minister, really puts you out into other people's lives. And I have found that people who are not faith connected are more receptive to the good news of Jesus than those that were already professing Christians. There was a hunger there and it really didn't even matter with age.

T.J.: 15:53

I worked in school system and things and and various, ages depending on the job. It it wasn't like a h thing either. It was just there were people hungry to know more. They had questions about the bible. They had questions about what it meant to be a Christian.

T.J.: 16:12

There was always that curiosity when people find out that you're a minister. They kinda wanna know they wanna know what that role is like. Like, you know, like, the the family situations and dynamic is different for a minister than it would be for, you know, the family just across the street. Like, no. We we have our own problems.

T.J.: 16:29

Yeah.

Nick: 16:30

Oh, yeah.

T.J.: 16:30

I mean, it's it's no different. Yeah. I've always

Nick: 16:33

come I hate to work with shoot shoot always asked me. She say, will you pray for me? And and I was like, yeah. You know, I pray for her. And, I mean, sometimes, like, we finish the route and just stop and I pray, you know, before she got off the boat.

Nick: 16:45

And she always say, you're closer to God than I am. And I'm like, no. I may not really, you know. I mean, I may talk to him more than you do, but but, like, you know, there's no, ranking, you know, that we get as pastors or even as as a church member, you know, that it puts us ahead of everybody else in communicating with God. I said, God is open.

Nick: 17:06

You know? You wanna talk to God, talk to God.

T.J.: 17:08

Yeah. Yeah. The same here. Don't don't go you don't have to go through me. You know?

Nick: 17:15

I

T.J.: 17:15

don't know where that comes comes from. I don't know if that's just kind of our our, you know, Catholicism or or just the role that we have where people think maybe, I don't know, we're sort of a mediator or an advocate. And I don't mind, you know, praying on behalf of somebody else. You know, it's an honor, you know, to be able to stop in the middle of what you're doing. Absolutely.

T.J.: 17:38

But, yeah, I'm with you. The the individual who wants to talk to God, they don't need me to talk to God.

Nick: 17:49

So, other jobs, so I we moved back here in 2017.

T.J.: 17:55

Yeah. You're back in Arkansas now.

Nick: 17:57

Back in Arkansas. For those who don't know. I've transitioned now back from, from being a full time pastor to, on the books, bivocational. Mhmm. I feel like I've always kinda been bivocational, but it was always ministry plus the side hustle.

Nick: 18:11

And and that was tiring, to be honest. And I'm not knocking any churches we've been at, but it's just I got a big family, and, it's it's tough. It it's just it it takes a lot of money. Mhmm. And I'm very sensitive, when people say something about preachers who are there for the money and all that.

Nick: 18:35

I'm I'm probably always gonna defend the pastors, which, which you know. My grandfather was a pastor, and, they he was full time for a while, and they struggled. I mean, they they really struggled. I I know one time, in particular, they they he would drive. He would always go, you know, somewhere to a church and depend on getting paid, you know, to buy gas, come home on.

Nick: 19:04

And somebody, didn't show up. They're supposed to pay him and, you know, he was digging money out of the seats for a gas money to get back home, you know. And, people always say, you know, use the Faith Guard, you know. And it's like gas station don't take that. You know?

Nick: 19:21

Walmart don't take Faith Guard. You know? You gotta have you gotta have money. And I know that's a sensitive topic for sure, but, it's just an honest one that I think needs to be had because there's a lot of ministers who are really struggling, and they're doing what God's calling to do. They're gonna do it broke or not.

Nick: 19:41

But, so, anyhow, this church the church I grew up in, that's where I'm at now, I was there till I was 18, and I, left. But, they said, hey. We're we're needing somebody part time. Like, we can't afford a full time pastor. It's tough for bivocational churches to get somebody to move in, take a church.

Nick: 20:03

Right. And then go find a job. And I know because I've interviewed at some in the past, and that was my biggest holdup. Like, I'm gonna get here and not make enough, and I've got a couple weeks really to find a job to go along with the church, you know, to be flexible to all the things that you need to be, and that's overwhelming. So so this deal opened up, and, we we came back here.

Nick: 20:34

And I think I gave, like, a 60 day, heads up. And so I was looking for a job. You know? And, best friend of mine has a sawmill. My mom actually worked I got her a job there.

Nick: 20:48

And, they had a spot open for a truck, and and it was gonna work out good because he knew my situation, and I kinda be flexible. And, you know, if something happened, I could take off. And, well, in 2 months time, he wound up having to cut back on some stuff, and so he didn't have a job open anymore.

T.J.: 21:05

Oh, no.

Nick: 21:06

And we were getting ready to move. And so I was like, oh my goodness. And so, you know, I just started looking around. And a guy who lives down the road from where I do, he said, hey. My brother works somewhere, and they they need somebody.

Nick: 21:23

And, it was driving a truck. They, they do oversized equipment all around. And, so I've done that, moving, logging stuff. You know? I've got a little experience.

Nick: 21:33

And so I I called the guy, and he's like, yeah. Yeah. And I said, well, you know, I'm still probably couple weeks out. He's like, that's fine. Just, you know, let me know when you get back.

Nick: 21:43

And so, he did. He hired me, man, and, that was one of the funnest jobs I've ever had. We haul stuff. I think the widest thing I've hauled is 17 foot wide. Anything about going down the highway like that, man, it's, there's no room for air.

Nick: 22:01

It's, you don't talk on the phone. You know, you're you're cute in to everything going on around you.

T.J.: 22:08

So are you white knuckling it? I mean, it it seems pretty stressful.

Nick: 22:12

Probably probably the first trips or 2 on something that big. You are. I mean, because, I mean, mailboxes I mean, you can't imagine the things on the edge of the road, and you need a car, you know. But we haul all kind of stuff. I ran anywhere from Oklahoma City to been all the way down the gulf.

Nick: 22:32

And it was, every day at the end of the day, you found out where you're going the next day. You know? So it was always changing and, you know, you couldn't make plans, and if if the company that we contracted to, if if, they did a lot of rental equipment. And so if somebody needed something Friday at 5 o'clock, you know, you think your day is over. You no.

Nick: 22:52

You turn around and you you may drive 4 hours to wherever than 4 hours back home. Oh. And so you may get home midnight, 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock. And so, it was fun, but it was very taxing.

T.J.: 23:06

And with you with 5 5 children. Right? Five children in the house? 6.

Nick: 23:11

Yeah.

T.J.: 23:12

Alright. My apologies to the to the last one here. Yeah. Six children. And how often were you home?

Nick: 23:22

I made it home every day. I I spent the night out a few times, but I mean, I made it home. Sometimes it was just to put them to bed. Sometimes I didn't see them. Mhmm.

Nick: 23:30

Mhmm. So it it was a fun job, but it was like, it was it was very taxing. And so, my my buddy, the one I was originally gonna work for, he, he had called me one day and he said, man, I need a mechanic. He had 12 trucks and 6 pieces of equipment. He said, I I need somebody.

Nick: 23:51

Mhmm. And, you know, I I was kinda struggle because I don't know if you ever worked for a friend or not, because then we're best friends in high school. And I I might have skipped that. I worked there in high school, 12th grade, as him and his dad and another guy, small little sawmill. So, I went up taking it.

Nick: 24:17

You know? And, really, he he made it worth my while, I guess. I took that job, and it's not really what I wanted or where I wanted to be, but it put me back in town every day. I got off at the same time pretty much every day. So it it worked out good for us, and I did that for about 2 years, I think.

Nick: 24:43

And then March of 2020, I've been saving I wanted my own truck. I'd had one before, and so, I was just I've been saving my money. I got my taxes back and had enough to make a down payment. And, I bought a truck, like, right when COVID started, And, probably the worst time to ever start a business, in all of my lifetime, you know. And it was like it was before everybody started shutting down.

Nick: 25:13

And so I'd already had everything bought and all that, and no guarantees whatsoever. And, because I think I started in April, when I finally left. But, but that's that's pretty much that's been my job since 2020, and I've done I've done well, so, I'm not complaining. I'm I'm more flexible. I can take off, do what I want when I well, I still have to work, but, I mean, I can be flexible.

Nick: 25:41

Mhmm. So to me, being flexible is huge because you're not pinned down, you know, for somebody else. You know? And kinda what I do now, I can I can work whenever I need to in the day, because we all have a lot of paper mills, and they're open 247, 365? So, I know I've had some funerals and stuff, and I I would just park and do all that, and then I'd go back and I might work later, something like that.

T.J.: 26:12

Well, I originally asked you this question, because of your work ethic. You've never been afraid of work. So where does that well from? Where did you get that? Is it born?

T.J.: 26:24

Is it is it beaten to us? Is it where is that coming from, that work ethic? For you anyway.

Nick: 26:34

I'm gonna say it's my dad. My dad is, be 72 this year. He still works. He he retired from logging in, 09, but he works for a company that has tankers. So he works on he works for tankers.

Nick: 26:56

And, me and my dad still gets down in the concrete, you know, on his knees working. He is, with that shadow of doubt, the toughest man I've ever met. And he was my hero growing up, you know, and I just I watched him. May even I think from the 5th grade on every summer, I went to work with my dad. And getting up 4:30 in the morning, you know, in 5th grade all summer long.

Nick: 27:20

And, it's just always watched him, you know, and that's that's kind of my inspiration, I guess. Hannah one time, we used to show pigs when I was in high school. And I come in from being out, you know, goofing around with some friends and went to eat supper. And, my dad asked me, he said, he said, you fed your animals yet? I said, no, sir.

Nick: 27:44

And he, my dad was the old rodeo cowboy. He said he said, cowboy always feeds his horse where he eats. I'm a tell you, man. I I set my fork down. I went outside to have animals, and that always stuck with me.

Nick: 27:59

You know. Ain't my horse, but, I got a wife and 6 kids, you know. And so for me, I always make sure they're provided before I am Mhmm. Because, they're what's important to me. And we're not frivolous.

Nick: 28:17

You know? I don't, and we barely go out to eat. But but I make sure they're provided for, and they have what they need. And that, that's part of the drive. You know?

Nick: 28:28

It's just, feel like that's being a man. You know? That's how I was raised in the end. So, I hope when I'm 72, I'm not still working. But but, I hope or as Dave Ramsey say, live like nobody else, you can live like nobody else.

T.J.: 28:47

I don't know. With it being instilled, there's an enjoyment to work.

Nick: 28:52

Oh, I I love working.

T.J.: 28:53

And and to to to say from I'm not speaking for you, but for me to say I'm completely walking away at whatever age, I I can do it. Maybe briefly.

Nick: 29:06

And

T.J.: 29:06

then then after about a week, I'm like, I I gotta go do something. I don't know what that something is, but I gotta go do it.

Nick: 29:13

Yeah. You know the, we had a snowstorm, about every 3 years, seems like. But this last year, you're basically stuck in the house. I mean, you can't go anywhere. I mean, out in the country, I mean, the roads are solid.

Nick: 29:26

You you can barely drive in a 4 wheel drive. And, you know, I'm I'm, like, on pins and needles, just running around and trying to find something to do. You know? It's I don't know. So, yeah, I probably won't ever quit altogether, but, I did, the I'm trying to think.

Nick: 29:46

I was out of logging for, we quit 9. So, got back in 2020, I guess. So 11 years. I enjoy running equipment. And like I said, I've been out there on it since I was in 5th grade, and, to me, it's not work.

Nick: 30:10

I enjoy the process, and I've ran everything. I used to my dad started me out on a chainsaw, and you wanna talk about tough. You, you don't realize you sweat as much as you can sweat because we'd start at 7, and by 8 o'clock, there's not a dry thread on you. I mean, in the wintertime too, it's just, it's tough. I know I learned I didn't wanna be on that forever, and he, he let me start moving up.

Nick: 30:37

And even though, like, he ran, I mean, it was his job. He was the boss. He never gave me any special favors. I mean, I started at the bottom, and I learned to run whatever is good or better than whoever else was out there before I got a a shot. And, I was always a quick study.

Nick: 30:55

You know, I would watch somebody else run it, and I would ask questions, why they do this, why they do that. So so, yeah, doing that stuff, it just it's fun to me. You know? You know, and I I work a lot of hours every day, but it's, it's enjoyment, you know. Mhmm.

Nick: 31:10

You Easter and the cutter and, hope I don't get you in trouble. I know a lot of people like cutting trees, but, like you can come up to a stand of woods and, it's just like a garden or anything else, you know. You prune the weeds and all that and, my dad taught me that. I mean, you you look at it and you look at the canopies and the trees and you you build it to look how it needs to look so that the rest of what's there can grow and and be better. And, my wife teasing all the time because we we drive down the road somewhere, and I'll see something somebody else cut, and I'll start critiquing it, you know.

Nick: 31:47

I don't know why they did this. I don't know why they did that. You know, because it's, you know, like I said, like a garden. You want your garden to look right, All the weeds out. You want things spaced out where you can grow.

Nick: 31:57

And so, I don't know. I'm just I guess, I'm weird that way. But like I I enjoy that, you know? Mhmm. And church is the same way.

Nick: 32:06

I enjoy seeing people learn. It's the same thing for me. When you see somebody get that moment, you know, like, yes, you know, like, scoring a touchdown. You know, you you just wanna jump up and shout and somebody got it. You know?

T.J.: 32:21

Nick, you've you've grown up in a household where, the Christian faith, church attendance, discipleship was extremely important. Speak more to that environment that you grew up in.

Nick: 32:42

Yes. So, mom's a PK. Preacher's kids. Yeah. Preacher's kids, they only know about going to church.

Nick: 32:53

You know, we were in church whenever the doors were open. Also come from a family that likes to talk, like debate. You know? And so and I'm probably the quietest one in my family. But we would talk about bible and stuff at home and, you know, kinda debate might be a strong word, but discuss it a lot.

Nick: 33:21

You know? I I always remember my mom and dad, my brother. Yeah. They're always smarter than I was on that stuff. And, you know, as being the younger one, you know, looking up to them and listening and, you know, just trying to learn and trying to remember stuff.

Nick: 33:41

And, go back to the start, I was a bad student. And which if you're a bad student in school and you don't learn in school, it's tough to learn the Bible too. And, I was kinda always envious that they could remember so much stuff, and I couldn't. I just I couldn't remember stuff. I remember one year we were at we're at the lake on a youth trip, and we played bible trivia.

Nick: 34:04

And been in church, I mean, like I said, all my life. You know, I can't remember a time we weren't in church. You know, even if we went out of town, we were in church somewhere. We played bible trivia, and I sucked. I I I couldn't remember anything, you know.

Nick: 34:19

And they're ask us questions. And like, how can I be a Christian? I mean, I'm saved at this point, You know, I'm active. I'm doing I can't remember anything, you know. And it bothered me.

Nick: 34:30

And so I just and I just really wanted to learn more about not just learn it, but, like, remember it. You know? If if somebody sparks up a conversation, I wanna be able to be a part of it and have something to add to this. My family's talking about, you know, whatever in the Bible. I wanna be able to be an active part of this discussion.

Nick: 34:50

Right. You know? And I couldn't at that time. And, so, yeah, I just I don't know, man. I just always wanted to be more knowledgeable of it, and we did.

Nick: 35:01

And and I realize now that not every family talks about the Bible. A lot of times you leave church, Bible shut, it's not mentioned. And so, ours was, man. We we discussed stuff, And I was I was the runt trying to pick up where everybody else was, but it it took me a little while. But, I've done the same with my kids.

Nick: 35:25

You know, we discuss stuff in the bible and, they might embarrass me if you start a question, but I hope, you know, I hope they would be the same. It's center of our life, you know, of all we do. For me, it's not even before I enter the ministry, church is not, you know, one day a week. It's it's it is more than an institution of church. It's it's more about, you know, us being in God's universe and part of his plan and, being ready.

Nick: 35:59

We talked about all these jobs I've had. Nobody gives you a heads up for when somebody asks you something. I mean, you gotta know it. You know? Mhmm.

Nick: 36:08

And, yeah, you're a preacher. You should know it. Like, if you're just a church member or a tender or whatever, you know, and somebody asks you something, you should know it. You know, don't be let me go ask my preacher. You know?

Nick: 36:22

God wants us to be able to, you know, be ready with a response, you know, for whatever. And so, yeah, just growing up talking about it.

T.J.: 36:33

In my, in my ministry, I think there is a level of humility too. I mean, I don't know everything even I actually know less Yeah. As I get older. But for those that I was serving with, you know, if they didn't know when they were asked a theological question or just a life question, just I was like, well, be honest and just go, well, I don't know. Let's let's go find out together, whether it's in the scriptures or, you know, whatever it is.

T.J.: 37:05

And to me, that says a lot as opposed to the other extreme is giving an answer to

Nick: 37:12

But you don't know.

T.J.: 37:14

Smart or intelligent or or that sort of thing. I I think the the honesty goes a lot further and then then you're discovering it together. That's what I've always encouraged people to do. Don't don't just give an answer. If you don't know, just take that as an opportunity where the 2 of you can look at the scriptures together.

Nick: 37:35

Yeah. I I've I've seen some people who just pop off first thing hits their head, and I was like, you don't know that. You just came up with that.

T.J.: 37:43

I know.

Nick: 37:44

There's there's nothing to back that up anywhere in the bible. Yeah. I had a friend of mine who's a pastor, and he said he had a old lady one time and and she would argue with him about something in the bible, and that's what he said he'd always do. So let's meet at the church. We'll go.

Nick: 37:58

We'll find it. Surge till we find. And and that's awesome. Yeah. It's a big book.

Nick: 38:05

You know? Yeah. And there's I just went back through this year, a 90 day bible plan. And the second time I've done 90 day, which is, like, you start carving time in your life to to do that. It's like an hour a day of reading.

T.J.: 38:23

Yeah. I was about to ask you. That sounds pretty intense.

Nick: 38:26

Yeah. But when you go out that fast, it's like, I hadn't been in there. And there are some books like I haven't been in a while, you know. It's like, I forgot about that, you know. But yeah.

Nick: 38:40

I don't know, man. Just being being a student, you know, and learning more about it, being able to discuss it. Even my family today, right, we still you know, it it it's not odd for us to get into biblical discussions, you know, at Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever.

T.J.: 39:04

There's, an advantage to always being steeped in scriptures and and theological discussions. But as days go by, I encounter and I think you do as well, more and more who are unfamiliar with the biblical text. And, you know, maybe have never read the Bible or had a study partner or just have a, you know, kind of a a passing knowledge of the New and the Old Testament. Nick, how do you how do you interact with those individuals who aren't as far along in the biblical knowledge and even in discipleship? Because it's pretty easy to just run right over that person and and flex our intellectual muscles or, our know how.

Nick: 39:58

For me, which is a 2 part, because I think you take people in the church different from those outside the church. Mhmm. The people outside the church, I think you have to find where where their knowledge base is on, some of them have 0 on the Bible. Mhmm. And so, I mean, it's almost like, you go back to the simplest stories.

Nick: 40:24

You know, you think about the ones you learned when you were a kid in Sunday school. You know, you focus on those. You focus on things that that are easy to understand. My kids are almost like that. You know, they're they always they wanna read the hardest book they can find in the Bible.

Nick: 40:42

No. No. No. No. No.

Nick: 40:43

You know? Find something find something you can understand. Get from a to b. I don't try to hit anything with that which I would call tough theological questions. You know?

Nick: 41:01

I just stay away from that. If if somebody doesn't know the Lord, that's number 1. Even even all the, we'll just call them social issues we discussed. I'm not debating social issues with somebody who's not a believer. Mhmm.

Nick: 41:21

It's a waste of time. Their salvation is number 1. And I've been asked a lot of, you know, those kind of questions from people, and I just try to steer clear. You know? Because for me, you know, always get the, is it a sin to gamble?

Nick: 41:41

And well, you know, are you saved? No. I don't even go to church. So who cares what it is then, you know. I mean, you know, stay away from that kind of stuff.

Nick: 41:52

You know, if it's somebody that's in the church that's been in the church a while, it's kinda the same principle. You gotta find out where they're at because I don't think longevity in the church means much. I used to. I used to think if somebody had been in church 20, 30 years, I would put them in a certain academic level of the Bible. That's not really true.

Nick: 42:13

So you kinda find out where they're at. Go back to my, growing up. I was a terrible student. I had ADD. I didn't know what it was.

Nick: 42:28

I I like to keep things simple, and so I carry that on the ministry. Mhmm. I'll throw out a I hate to say a big word because they're they're just, I wouldn't really call them big words, but, maybe a a churchy word every now and then. I'll throw one out just to see if I could see responses. And when you say somebody They're going

T.J.: 42:52

for a reaction.

Nick: 42:53

When you say the eyebrow raise up, you know, it's like, okay, they didn't know what that was. You know, I got some of them that turned their head a little sideways, and it's like, okay, so go back to that. You know, go back, explain that. Sometimes my wife, well, she'll tell me after, she said, you know, they have no idea what you just said. I'm like, really?

Nick: 43:12

But everybody knew this. So she's like, no. And so, like, if I get that, so I'll go back into it and more explanation on it. But, like, if it's like lifting weights. You know?

Nick: 43:24

If you're not straining a muscle every now and then, you're not learning. So so as a pastor, I think you always gotta push to the limit, but you always you've got people who this is their first Sunday they came. Mhmm. They haven't been to church in 15 years. So you got that in there too.

Nick: 43:42

And, if I'm being honest, you got people who've been there 20 years who nod off every week. They're probably at the same level. So so you gotta balance all that because, I'm a short preacher. I'm 20, 25 minute guy. Yeah.

Nick: 44:01

I go preach the whole Bible in one Sunday. You know? You gotta keep it simple and to where people who are ADD like me don't get lost. Yeah. And, you know, you just repeat yourself a lot.

Nick: 44:16

You know, Over the same thing. You you hear the same thing over and over enough, you begin to learn it. And, so so that's my approach, just kinda find out where people are and going with that.

T.J.: 44:27

Do you think, parenting influences in how you do ministry and your pastoral care, your sermon preparation, you know, in in terms of the teaching element and and in sharing concepts and helping people in their discipleship. There's something unique about having a small child around, you know. Not necessarily that you're testing, but I think how we communicate with an 8 year old or maybe even a 10 year old could just be the baseline in terms of how we share what the Christian faith means, who Jesus is. And then later, you can start building and and share those big complicated words that never get used outside of the church or an academic setting.

Nick: 45:28

Yeah. For sure. My my kids are I got 6 kids. So I'm if I can just do this year's birthdays because it's the only way I can remember. So we're, I'll be 19 to 9 on my kids.

Nick: 45:47

So I've got a wide range there. And so they're kind of a sounding board for me, I guess. You know, if they're picking up and learning, everybody else should be too, you know, especially the older ones. Yeah. Kids give you a a lesson in patience.

Nick: 46:09

Mhmm. I I think we all probably struggle with that. Just just learning stuff. You know? You know, it was Paul that wrote, you know, about, people still drinking milk, need to be on meat.

Nick: 46:25

You know? That's our job as pastors. You know? We're trying to get people to the meat, but there's always gonna be somebody sipping milk because hopefully, because there's hopefully always somebody new coming in. I guess yeah.

Nick: 46:39

It's like me. You know, I just got through training a kid to drive, and now I got another one. You know, like, I never get out of this, this training stage. You know? I'm stuck here.

T.J.: 46:49

Yeah. You're always teaching. Yeah. Always.

Nick: 46:53

It's like, my kids are 2 years apart, every one of them. So I got I got 2 drivers, 2 licensed drivers should I said, and one with a permit. And it it's like you're on pins and needles, you know, because I mean, it's tough teaching somebody how to drive. And, like, that's that's that's a big deal, but, like, spiritual things are the same way. You know?

Nick: 47:18

I mean, it's tough to teach people scripture because I think when the Bible is so big and so many interpretations from so many different people that are out there. And so, you know, okay, what do I think? What do I feel? That's the hard part. I think we, as pastors, sometimes we just wanna shove it down their throat, and that's not how everybody learns.

Nick: 47:45

You know? I I think having kids helps train us in that because, I mean, I'm reminded one of my kids picks up faster than the other one. Yeah. And, as far as compassion, you mentioned that, I'm horrible at that. I'm, my wife says I'm more compassionate at church than I'm at home.

Nick: 48:13

I grew up my dad came from a tough family. You know, it's it's kinda black and white. You know what I'm saying? I mean, obeying was black and white. You either obey or you don't.

Nick: 48:31

I mean, so so it's kind of gruff, you know. And I've I guess I've carried some of that along. My wife is so much better at being, the compassionate ministry role than I am. She's and and bivocational stuff too, but, I mean, she checks on people. She's the I mean, I should make her associate pastor, you know, and just let that day heart roll.

Nick: 48:57

You know? She's the minister of of compassion and caring. You know? I don't know. I'm I'm more tough, you know, black and white, get with it.

Nick: 49:07

And I approach my kids the same way. And I wish I was more compassionate in ministry, but it's, it's tough. You know? It's it's tough to learn that. Definitely a spiritual gift.

Nick: 49:25

Definitely. Yeah. You

T.J.: 49:27

know, we haven't talked about your calling in the ministry. We've kind of worked, you know, in different areas of your life. So share with me I mean, you had a career, multiple careers, and why ministry?

Nick: 49:48

Okay. Our church, every year as a kid, you know, we do children's Sunday.

T.J.: 49:57

And Are you a kid at this time or are you an adult?

Nick: 50:00

Am a kid. And, I don't remember the kids ever preaching, but for some reason, if you're, if your grandparent is a preacher, people always say, you know to me and my brother both would always say, oh, y'all gonna be preachers like your grandpa. And I resented that, growing up, because I didn't wanna be a preacher.

T.J.: 50:17

I'm not surprised. And,

Nick: 50:20

I think my brother's the same way. He didn't either. So, anyhow, so they got him one one son 1 year to to bring the message. And, you know what that naturally means. You know, the next year, I'm gonna have to do And, I did I preached my first sermon in, I think I was 16.

Nick: 50:44

It's about 5 minutes long. It's recorded on a cassette somewhere. Man, that was tough. At that point in life, I was still pretty shy. I was pretty quiet guy.

Nick: 50:57

You know? And so to get in front of people was really overwhelming.

T.J.: 51:01

So did you use note cards, piece of paper?

Nick: 51:05

I think I had a few notes. Anyhow, I still remember the sermon. I remember it was about it was longer in my head than it was for now. And and I still get made fun of for it from people who were there, because I got through. I said, that's all I got.

Nick: 51:21

And, that was that was the invitation right there. That's all I got. I got through that, and maybe a year later, a bunch of men from my church went to Promise Keepers. And the pastor at the time, he asked me what I fill in. And, for some reason, I said yes.

Nick: 51:43

And maybe it's redemption from a 5 minute sermon. And, so, I I can't honestly remember anything about that. I'm sure it's on cassette somewhere too, because because we recorded everything back then. But, I was gonna start doing this.

T.J.: 51:58

Was a little bit longer?

Nick: 51:59

It was a little bit longer. It might have been, like, 7 minutes, maybe. And I had no preparation, and my grandpa was a minister. I don't know why I didn't go to his house and say, okay. Help me learn.

Nick: 52:09

You know? But,

T.J.: 52:11

Oh, you did this solo. Okay.

Nick: 52:13

Oh, yeah.

T.J.: 52:13

It's I'm glad you clarified. I I would assume that No. No. I didn't you sought his advice.

Nick: 52:17

No. I don't ask help from many people. I I'm the sink or swim guy. You know, throw me in the deep water and figure it out.

T.J.: 52:25

Okay.

Nick: 52:27

I I should clarify. When I worked for my dad, it was the same way. He put me on a cutting machine and said, here, good luck. I mean, that's that's been my life. It's figured out on your own.

Nick: 52:36

So, yeah, somewhere in that point, I really I started feeling something inside, and it was like, I feel maybe this is what I'm supposed to do. You know, why did why did brother Garland ask me to preach? You know? I mean, he could've found anybody. You know?

Nick: 52:52

Much better than me. And I began to struggle with it. All through, senior in high school, I struggled. And I just started praying. I was like, God, you're gonna have to give me a sign because, I've seen my grandpa's life, and, and they struggled.

Nick: 53:05

All all his life, they struggled. And he intentionally struggled. He was, he was a electrician. He used to make real good money. You know?

Nick: 53:14

I mean, successful in the electrical field. And he left, you know, to become a preacher. And so I just I don't know. I struggle with that. And, and I went back to, you know, since I was 4th or 5th year birthday.

Nick: 53:36

My mom took me out to the woods to see my dad for birthday. I remember riding a machine they had. And, from that moment, that's all I ever wanna do was be a logger. And so up to this point in my life, I've had everything I've thought about. So now this ministry thing starts creeping in.

Nick: 53:52

And, when I talked to my mom about it, I was like, I'm I'm struggling. You know? And, I started praying. I was like, guys, if this is what you want from me, I'm gonna need to, like, put my name on a billboard. I wanna drive by and see Nick on a billboard or or yes to ministry.

Nick: 54:07

I don't I don't care. Something that I know, this is what it is. Yeah. And, and I

T.J.: 54:12

That's a big demand. That's a big demand, Donkopf.

Nick: 54:15

I mean, hey, Gideon Gideon got some big summon, you know. You know, I don't know why I could get one. And nothing. I mean nothing. And, I just I was like, you know, if God wanted this for me, he would make it more clear.

Nick: 54:34

I wouldn't be struggling. So, then I finally started back somewhere and went on with life. Moved to Nashville, Tennessee. I went to Diesel College for a year, and I went to work for my dad, and it was like, this is this is me. It's my life.

Nick: 54:53

This is everything. I got married and trying to get involved in church. You know? I mean, as far as doing something, me and my wife kinda helped with the youth a little bit. How is that this burning thing back just way back deep inside that, like, I have purpose?

Nick: 55:18

I have no idea what it is, but I've got this purpose. And, I I didn't struggle with ministry. I I struggled with knowing what I'm supposed to do. I feel like God had gifted me in certain areas. At that point, in my early twenties, I mean, I was definitely a student of the Bible.

Nick: 55:40

You know, I mean, I I cued in on whatever the preacher said. I mean, if he said something I didn't think was right, I would I would bring it to him. I'd have it written on paper. You know? Check this out.

Nick: 55:49

Check this out. Run these references. You know?

T.J.: 55:52

Oh, man. I'm gonna start doing that to you.

Nick: 55:55

Yeah. I've had that, actually. But, I don't know, man. I just I just struggled, but it it wasn't it was never going back to ministry really. And I talked to my wife about it, and, you know, every now and then, somebody you know, do you think this?

Nick: 56:14

I was like, no. I I prayed God did not give me a sign. This is not me. You know? And, so, back to my grandpa, man.

Nick: 56:26

He was my hero. I I've never I'm just gonna say it's a different relationship. My dad, they were tight. Man, right till I was a teenager, he was he was, you know, Superman to me. Tough, All all the things.

Nick: 56:44

You know? Macho man, my dad was. You know? I mean, he cut trees for a living. You know?

Nick: 56:48

Like, you just you look at my dad, you see this is a lumberjack, you know, and that's what I wanted to be. But for my grandpa, man, he he was, he was like the other side of me. He could fix anything. Man, I've tore up so many toys, like, electronical stuff. I take to his house, sit at his desk, and, he would pull out these trays.

Nick: 57:10

And, I don't know if you can see. This is this is my grandpa's desk. He would pull out these trays, man, and he's he said it here, and we would just start taking it apart. It didn't matter what it was. You know, he would just start dissecting this thing.

Nick: 57:24

Wow. And, and these things got holes all that. We drilled holes, you know, on something. I don't know. But, I would spend hours over at his house.

Nick: 57:34

My my my minister grandfather. Not talking about the bible. Fixing stuff because that's that's what we did. And, he was, he was my hero in that. You know?

Nick: 57:46

It's just, I just remember lots of nights going over there, and, I'd knock on the door. And, I just knocked and walked in, and my grandma would always say, he's back in his office. You know? And We go sit back there, and, he's probably one of the reasons I went to diesel school, you know, because just being around him and fixing stuff, and that's what I like. And, we just, like I said, I was probably closer to him than any other man ever in my life.

Nick: 58:16

And, man, he could do like I said, he was, air conditioning guy and all the stuff. He would help me on any of that kind of stuff. You know, he was always here working. I don't know. I just the hours that I spent with him is just unreal.

Nick: 58:33

Anyhow, he he came to church with us. He had retired, and, he came to the church I was at. I don't even know why they came, on a Sunday night. And, I'll never forget him going down the altar and praying. He can barely walk.

Nick: 58:50

He messed his hip up. I just struggled to get down there. And he prayed, and, he went back, sat down. He died, Tuesday night. It's kinda crazy, man.

Nick: 59:09

It, I'd had a truck broke down, and it was in the shop. And we'd sent my mom to Texarkana, which is about an hour and 45 minutes from here to get the parts. Plan was, she was gonna get back around midnight. I was gonna get up, fix the truck, and be ready to go the next morning. And so, I did everything.

Nick: 59:31

I just got back in bed, and phone rang, and he had died. He went outside. He couldn't breathe. And, he'd went outside. He had a, cutting torch outside.

Nick: 59:42

He has oxygen. You know? And he was just going trying to get some oxygen out of there because he couldn't breathe. He can't even breathe that oxygen, but, know, I guess in the mental state he was in, I just it's kinda comical looking back now, just the guy he was. He knew he needed air, and there was air in there.

Nick: 59:56

So Wow. But, he, man, his funeral, it it ate me up. He taught me so much, but not enough. I must have had so much to learn. And I spoke at his funeral.

Nick: 01:00:24

And the next Sunday, got our church in Sunday school. He said, as far as I'm concerned, he said you preached his funeral just from what you said. And I struggled, as in April. And almost like within a week of him dying, man, those feelings of ministry came back. It's like I kept hearing, pick up the mantle.

Nick: 01:01:04

Pick up the mantle. And, like, I don't need to pick up the mantle. My brother picked up the mantle. He's a minister. My aunt, who, his daughter is a minister.

Nick: 01:01:16

Or she was in the process. She was going to pause at the time. I am a law lover. I'm a church member. I'm a believer.

Nick: 01:01:27

I'm a student of the word, but I am not a preacher. I'm shy. I'm quiet. I'm not shy. I'm just quiet.

Nick: 01:01:34

I don't like to talk a lot. Work in the woods, I'm always by myself. I mean, I get the machine in the morning, and I don't talk to anybody till I get out into the day. Mhmm. And so it began with this pick up the mantle to, like, me arguing.

Nick: 01:01:50

And I'm like, god, you have no idea who you're talking to. Like, this is not me. I don't have these skills. I I can't do it. I barely made it through high school.

Nick: 01:02:00

You know? The reason I went to diesel college instead of a 4 year college is because I hate school. I hate all this stuff, And it was just like a daily argument. The at the time, I was running a loader and, just loading trucks. And, I mean, I'm I'm here by myself all day arguing with somebody I can't see.

Nick: 01:02:31

And, it was a great time in my life. I, I was listening to, 2 sermons before I even got to work every morning, on a radio station I listened to, and 2 at lunch every day. So I'm listening 4 sermons a day. I mean, I was spiritually, I was growing just, just listening to what I was preaching all the time. But the pick up the mantle thing, I was just, no.

Nick: 01:03:05

I'm not you know, I'll I'll teach Sunday school. I'll I'll do anything. You know? And, I just tell my wife. We would start having these conversations about it, and she was always encouraging, you know, whatever I felt.

Nick: 01:03:23

And there was a old guy who went to church with us, and it's kinda funny. All guys are good truck drivers. And so I had this one guy, who was probably 70, And he is having some kidney problems, so he's not due to dialysis. He couldn't work Tuesday Thursday. And so I had this this old guy in our church, who was retired, but he he still would drive part time for people.

Nick: 01:03:56

And so I say, hey. You know, we drive 2 days a week. And he could barely walk, barely get around. I'd had to throw his straps for him and all this. Contankers, old man.

Nick: 01:04:07

But, I mean, he was

T.J.: 01:04:08

But a good driver.

Nick: 01:04:09

Yeah. He was a good driver. He he showed up. He's there for daylight every day. And the other guy, he was the same way.

Nick: 01:04:15

I mean, that guy would be there, you know, early. And so I had these 2 old guys that shared the same truck. You know? Anyhow, so on Tuesday Thursday, the guy, and he was always giving me a hard time about something. He was just he he was contagious.

Nick: 01:04:33

But he told me one day just over the radio. I mean, you know, we got CDs and all that stuff. And he said, I don't know what you're dealing with, but you need to get over it. He said, whatever it is, you need to deal with it and get over it. Well, what is this crazy old man talking about?

Nick: 01:04:56

And now I got pick up the mantle stuck in my head, and I got, you need to deal with it. Get over it Stuck in my head. And so this is this is running around August probably. And, so I went and talked to our pastor, and I told him where I was at. And he said, I can see it on your face every Sunday.

Nick: 01:05:25

I'm like, I don't know how you see it on my face, because I'm not seeing it. But

T.J.: 01:05:29

You're still waiting for the billboard. Yeah.

Nick: 01:05:31

The billboard. And I'm like, I'm that's what I'm arguing. I'm like, I I made a new guy give me the billboard and, you know, I'll do it. And it never happened. So, it was coming up board meeting time, and and he was like, do you wanna go visit with Camille in ministry?

Nick: 01:05:48

And I was like, no. I don't. No. I I don't.

T.J.: 01:05:51

Because you knew what that meant.

Nick: 01:05:52

I knew what that meant. You know? And so I waited till after they had met. And, I just I didn't wanna make a change in my life. I mean, I was, I was 26 at at that point.

Nick: 01:06:10

I had every I was running my dad's job on my own. I mean, I hired, I fired. I mean, everything we did, I set up when we set up in a set, I set it up. I I went with the foresters wherever, you know, we were moving. I mean, I did everything.

Nick: 01:06:24

My dad, he just ran the piece of equipment he ran, and he he just turned it over to me. You do it. You know? You know, I didn't pay the bills or any of that. But as far as on the job, I mean, I was I was where I wanted to be.

Nick: 01:06:34

You know? All I ever dreamed of.

T.J.: 01:06:36

Day to day operations was your responsibility.

Nick: 01:06:39

My responsibility. I'm 26. I'm, you know, in charge of guys who were, you know, 50 plus. They treated me like a leader. You know, me and my dad had some spars for some years when I first started out there.

Nick: 01:06:54

And, you know, he finally just said, you know, he knew I knew what I was talking about. And so I've studied this stuff since I was a little kid, you know. I just don't wanna make a change, you know. I was fine where I was at. And I was making good money, you know, pretty much had everything I wanted.

Nick: 01:07:16

We had our our first kid. Still getting used to being a parent. I knew because I've been around it. I knew what, you know, beginning administering them. So it's before Presbyterian met we we made in September, but, I finally told pastor, I said, I think I'm ready.

Nick: 01:07:38

And, man, you know that feeling in your gut, like, the only way I'm gonna get past this is get it out. Like, that's where I was. And so, I mean, I started singing the first verse, and I just went down front. And, I think they stopped the song for us even first thing. And

T.J.: 01:07:58

Both feet in then.

Nick: 01:08:00

I said, I'm sure in the ministry and everybody's like, that time, you know. And I was probably the only one shocked. But, I don't know, man. I was just I was scared to death. And I can't tell my wife because I knew I was serving on a committee then.

Nick: 01:08:18

And so I I mean, I've been around. I've been going to presbytery. We skipped this somewhere, but, I was an elder before I got married. So I've been going to Presbyterian. I knew all everything at work.

Nick: 01:08:34

And so, I took the plunge. I kept on my wife. I said, this a long process. It takes people years to get through with this. You know?

Nick: 01:08:43

And so nothing's gonna change. That's what I kept telling her. Nothing's gonna change in our life. You know?

T.J.: 01:08:47

Were you trying to convince were you trying to convince her or you?

Nick: 01:08:50

Both, probably. But I was like, nothing's gonna change. You know? Is this is the way it's gonna be. It take years.

Nick: 01:08:57

I met with committee. Well, let me get I gotta go for I'm not preaching. We have a pastor. He preaches every Sunday, you know, like, maybe and he was gonna be gone on Wednesday night, and somebody called long enough if I'd fill in in October. So I mean, I'm like a month straight in the ministry, and I'm like, I don't know how to do that.

Nick: 01:09:16

And I'm like, it's just Wednesday night. You know? I was like, okay. You know? So I I scratched down some notes.

Nick: 01:09:30

It's it's on a little steno pad, you know. Yay big. Some notes. And it's from James. Anyhow, so that wasn't too bad.

Nick: 01:09:41

I made it through it, you know. It was it was halfway decent if I'm being honest. I was shocked. I was probably shocked more than anybody else. It's longer than 5 minutes.

Nick: 01:09:51

So so maybe, you know, maybe the years gave me a little bit. But I was like, that's no big deal. You know, he's back next week. No. No thing.

Nick: 01:10:00

Back to normal. And somebody I know was friends or something with a Presbyterian USA Church, out of Tates Bluff. And they'd have a pastor. They have somebody, from the other church they sent in, but on 4th Sunday, they didn't have anybody. And I said, would you come on 4th Sunday?

Nick: 01:10:24

And, they'd serve him for us. I was like, I don't know. I mean, I'm still new to this. Right? And, I don't know.

Nick: 01:10:36

I said yes for some reason. It came out. I didn't really know what I was doing. I showed up there. They want me to lead the music.

Nick: 01:10:44

That was like, I did not sign up for this. You know, they sing with a different book than we do. I didn't know half the songs. They only had an organ player, and all he played was the bass notes. And and they did a lot of, liturgy, which, I where I was going to church, we didn't do liturgy at all.

Nick: 01:11:04

And I kinda got used to that, and I was like, who's gonna read all this liturgy? And they're like, you are. I was like, oh, okay. I can get to this. And so, man, it started.

Nick: 01:11:18

So every 4th Sunday, I'd go down there, and, I had to brush up, find a suit I could wear, you know, because I I knew that, you know, you should look at least look like a preacher if you're gonna be praying the word. And, we started going down there. That went too bad. I kinda figured things out, and, nobody would pray out loud there. So, and they had, like, 4 or 5 prayers throughout the service that they wrote the bulletin up, just handed it to me.

Nick: 01:11:43

You know? And so, you know, I I figured it out, kinda on my own. And and then, we had another church in Emerson, Arkansas, which used to be a, what do you call them? The split church. They shared with Methodist.

T.J.: 01:12:08

Oh, a union church.

Nick: 01:12:09

Union. Yeah.

T.J.: 01:12:10

Yes.

Nick: 01:12:10

So first and third was Cumberland, second and fourth was Methodist. Alright. And so the guy actually who was, at the church I'm at now was doing 1st and third, and they were leaving. And so he asked me what I fill in, you know, because he's leaving. So I was like, oh, okay.

Nick: 01:12:34

You know? They were an hour from us, and their service started at 8 o'clock. So here I am, wife, young baby. And so 1st and third, we drive an hour south. And 4th, we drive about an hour, west to the southern.

Nick: 01:12:55

And so, I mean, I'm 3 or 4 months in. We started that in December. So I'm still a newbie. You know? And, I don't have a lot of tools to assist in you know?

Nick: 01:13:10

Other than my bible, you know, for research or anything like that. Mhmm. I barely had Internet at that time. You know? So so I had to look anything up.

Nick: 01:13:20

I mean, you just pretty much read the scripture and, you know, here's my sermon. Like, I just I couldn't study other than, you know, the text.

T.J.: 01:13:26

Yeah.

Nick: 01:13:26

And so, you know, somebody had bought me some, maybe a commentary or something to look at. And, so by March, the pastor at our church, left. And the elder and he's supposed to be, you know, guiding me along this process that I just started. So he left. I think his last Sunday was in February.

Nick: 01:13:52

So, the elders church asked me would I fill in on Sunday morning. And my aunt, who's also she was in the pause program. She was gonna do Sunday night. And, it's like, okay. You know?

Nick: 01:14:11

So in March, I started doing that on Sunday morning, every Sunday morning. And also in March, I took my first pause class. Doctor Campbell came down, to the church I was attending and did a weekend course. I haven't even went before the, presbytery yet, so I'm not even a candidate yet.

T.J.: 01:14:32

Okay.

Nick: 01:14:35

Yeah. This is me jumping in head first. You know? So I I took the and there's gonna be right in my hometown. Why not take it?

Nick: 01:14:42

You know? And so so I took it, and it might have been in February, but it was before I I went for the committee I mean, the Presbyterian, March. And I had met with the committee, and, they agreed to let me go to Paws. I was I was running my dad's business. You know, it's just, I wouldn't finna up and quit and go to seminary because I'd had to go on to finish college, because all I had was diesel tech school, you know.

Nick: 01:15:10

Mhmm. So by March, I'm preaching every Sunday morning at 11 o'clock at our church. Plus 1st and third, I'm driving an hour south at 8 o'clock service at the church, and then 4 Sunday going to, the PCUSA church. That's too fast for any new person.

T.J.: 01:15:36

Yeah. I was about to

Nick: 01:15:37

say recommend it.

T.J.: 01:15:38

Yeah. So you kept, the other two commitments on. And within a matter of 6 to 8 months, you're preaching at 3 different churches.

Nick: 01:15:47

Yeah.

T.J.: 01:15:48

From September to, what, like, April, May?

Nick: 01:15:53

Yeah. Yes. We start we started, there in March doing that, and I did that all the way up until November. Mhmm. They hired a pastor in November.

Nick: 01:16:06

Okay. So yeah, man. I mean, it it just it me telling her this is a slow go, like, it got fast quick. Yeah.

T.J.: 01:16:20

I was imagining working. I was imagining what those conversations were like. She pulled me over to the side and said, you lied to me. Yeah.

Nick: 01:16:28

I actually said this was slow. So, and at the same time, I'm a full time employee from my dad in the woods, plus we had, we were running 4 trucks then, and I was full time mechanic on Saturday taking care of maintenance on 4 trucks. I was hitting 80 plus hours a week, on the secular side plus filling in at 3 churches.

T.J.: 01:16:52

Mhmm.

Nick: 01:16:54

I was exhausted, which and also I had a new baby that didn't sleep much. But man, I don't know. God provided the strength. I don't know. I keep I mean, I work hard.

Nick: 01:17:07

I mean, that's, I guess I'm not wide open. I feel like I'm not doing anything. So, yeah, they hired somebody in November. And so I was like, let's go slow down now. I'm back to I'm back to these other churches.

Nick: 01:17:21

And it, it slowed down for a bit. We're in 2,000 oh, we're in 2007, so I guess I missed this. In, July no. June. In June, in the middle of that, we had our second son, just to add to other things.

Nick: 01:17:45

This is good stuff. And so after he was born, we decided we couldn't do the Emerson one anymore. It was just, we were having to leave 6:45, 2 little bitty babies. So, I tell them, I just can't do this anymore. And, so it was just it was just tough.

Nick: 01:18:07

You know, so by November, the church we're at, they hired somebody. Back to so now we're back to just one church on before Sunday.

T.J.: 01:18:18

And starting your school. How did that go? How did you balance program alternate studies and work

Nick: 01:18:25

and preaching? I took one, one block the first time. It was only 3 classes. I took off work and

T.J.: 01:18:34

Which is a lot. Three classes is a lot. Yeah.

Nick: 01:18:37

It was a lot. And so I'm 27. I haven't done any kind of, we'll just say, educational stuff. You know? Haven't written any papers or anything like that in a long time.

Nick: 01:18:48

It was a real learning curve to get back to doing that. Mhmm. A lot of typing. I hadn't typed since I was in 11th grade. I I feel like I did pretty good.

Nick: 01:19:02

It was different because it was something I enjoyed. I enjoyed learning Bible stuff.

T.J.: 01:19:11

You were a little bit older too.

Nick: 01:19:12

I was a little bit older, you know. A little maturity comes to that. I was the youngest person at PAWS by far, which didn't bother me because everybody I worked with was over 50. So

T.J.: 01:19:23

Yeah.

Nick: 01:19:23

I just felt at home. You know, I didn't realize that I'm a a, you know, 27 year old. I didn't feel like that because I didn't feel like I had work. Everybody at work treated me like I was, you know, I was a leader. I mean, because I was their boss.

Nick: 01:19:36

You know? Mhmm. So it didn't bother me. But, you know, looking back, you know, I was I was their kid, you know? Yeah.

Nick: 01:19:46

But,

T.J.: 01:19:49

but you and I are getting closer to, the age of those students at that particular time.

Nick: 01:19:54

Oh, yeah. Yeah. No doubt. So I did that. Then in, in December, another church, at Walkerville, had asked me to come down, and just preach, right before Christmas.

Nick: 01:20:11

And so, you know, I only had one church on 4th Sunday, so it was no big deal now. So I went down there, and they were looking for somebody, and and, we prayed with them. They were looking for a pastor. You know? And I don't know.

Nick: 01:20:30

It just turned into something there. So they were like, we need somebody. You know, it's just Sunday morning.

T.J.: 01:20:36

Okay. Yeah. I was about to ask you if you commuted. Oh, so I I'm probably jumping ahead a little bit, Nick. But at some point, you finished your education, and then you you moved.

T.J.: 01:20:50

You moved for ministry opportunity.

Nick: 01:20:52

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're we're way we're way down the line there. So so I went to Walkerville.

Nick: 01:20:58

I started there, every Sunday morning. And it's an hour from here too, and I stopped everything else. So, it turned into just just walkerville. We had quit going to the church where my wife's home church. We quit going there.

Nick: 01:21:10

Mhmm. And we went to walkerville. And we went there for a time, and they were wanting to do stuff. And they're, you know, closest town is 20 miles from there, College town, all that, they're they're way out in the country. And everybody goes to town.

Nick: 01:21:27

You know? It's just those rural churches are just struggling to stay alive. I say they're at where they're at. They're not they're not gonna grow. They're just they're there till who's there is gone.

Nick: 01:21:45

And we in the CP church, we have a lot of those. I think our our churches were built in the rural communities by far, and those are the churches that are struggling the most. And those are the churches in 20 years won't be. But, we went down there for 9 months. And somewhere in there, we decided we start doing a Sunday night bible study, because I was in pause.

Nick: 01:22:06

We were learning. You know? And you you know how you get in school, you talk about these things. We need to put them into practice. You know?

T.J.: 01:22:12

Right. Right.

Nick: 01:22:13

I was terrified of a bible study. Preaching was okay. Nobody's talking back. Open the floor for questions. I don't know if I'm ready for that yet.

T.J.: 01:22:21

Right.

Nick: 01:22:22

You know, back to what we talked about earlier, you know, people start asking stuff. I don't know. I can answer that, you know. Well, you're the guy with the coat and the tie, you know. Yeah.

Nick: 01:22:32

I felt like I had to know everything from the beginning, and I know I didn't. You know? I knew I was struggling, but we started doing that. And I took some of my pause classes, some of the stuff we're studying, and just built some Bible studies around it. You know?

Nick: 01:22:48

And it kinda helped me working on the assignments and, whatever literature it was. You know? I just used that and built something out of it. Mhmm. And so it worked out pretty good.

Nick: 01:22:57

We did that for 9 months. The pastor who had been hired at our home church, let's just say it didn't work out. And they offered me the job, full time. This is, 2008, November, I believe, is when I started there. I don't know if you remember back 2,008, what was going on in the country.

Nick: 01:23:30

But, let's just say the timber industry was terrible. The housing crisis that hit, mills and stuff were, they couldn't sell lumber. Therefore, they didn't need lumber. We were a high capacity job that we ran. We we delivered 60 to 80 loads a week of wood, and our job was built on that.

Nick: 01:23:57

And, we were getting put on quotas like 25, 30 loads a week. And so it was it was tough. We had laid some people off. Matter of fact, we had laid almost everybody off. Me and my dad ran everything in the woods and then had one truck driver.

Nick: 01:24:19

And we had parked the rest of stuff. Kinda trying to wait it out, you know. We went back to, my dad again, tough old bird. He, he went back to, run a chainsaw, at 60 years old. You know?

Nick: 01:24:37

He was he was cutting them down with a machine and then getting out and topping everything. Cutting the limbs, tops off, all that. I was skinning and loading. And so we were, you know, 2 man show.

T.J.: 01:24:49

Wow.

Nick: 01:24:50

And, we did that till, till February. And he just he said I had enough. I'm done. I'm done. And, I took the job at the church being by vocational.

Nick: 01:25:05

I said, yeah. I'm still working for my dad. We're it's tough right now. I'm not leaving him. You know?

Nick: 01:25:12

I I love my dad, man. We we were tight. We had some strained relationship through the years, you know, but we were tight. And, my dad was my best friend. You know?

Nick: 01:25:22

And, I said I'm not I'm not leaving him. You know? And, so in February, he he said, we're done. I'm through. Tired of this.

Nick: 01:25:30

And so we we shut the job down, sold everything we could sell, and, I think we didn't wind up letting a few things go back. We just kind of worked with some people and said, you know, we can't we can't make it. And it was tough, and, it cut out a big part of my my income. And, so then it was like, what do you gotta do now? And so I I went to the church, and I said, hey.

Nick: 01:26:00

Look. You know, I told them I was going on with dad. Quit. And they had hired had a full time pastor before, so I was like, you know, I can I can go full time if that's what y'all want? And so they said, yeah.

Nick: 01:26:10

Yeah. We'd love that. And so that was the beginning, 2009, full time ministry. Something I never really thought I'd be in. I kinda always figured I'd be bi vocational.

Nick: 01:26:20

Were you

T.J.: 01:26:22

were you ordained by then or

Nick: 01:26:23

still in school? I'm still I'm still in pause. And I was the one one block a year. That was all I could do. It was so 3 classes a year.

Nick: 01:26:31

That's why I kept telling my wife. I said, you know, it's 33 classes. Like, it'll take me 10 years to do this. And, so that was February. So come up summertime, the committee somebody had donated some money to the communal ministry or left some money.

Nick: 01:26:47

And they would pay for, a full summer of pause. And so, all nine classes, which was 15 days, I was like, I'd be dumb not to take all these. You know? And so I did, and, I was wide open after that. I mean, I was taking anything I could find.

Nick: 01:27:09

If there was a weekend course somewhere, I was gone. I just anything I could get, I would take. I I end up finishing pause in three and a half years.

T.J.: 01:27:23

Wow.

Nick: 01:27:24

They told me, toward the end, they're like, you don't have any secular education. And I was like, no. I don't. I got a I'm a diesel tech, you know, if that counts for anything. And they're like, no.

Nick: 01:27:37

You're get with doctor Campbell. So I got with doctor Campbell. He was the, pause person then. And he said, send me some transcripts. So I sent them, and he looked at them, life experience, all these things.

Nick: 01:27:54

He said, so I'm gonna give you credit for a lot of this, you know, and run a business, do all this stuff. And he walked out, I don't remember now, 6 or 9 something classes, college classes I had to take. And so, we got a little community college in the neighborhood, so I went out there. And I'm 10 years older than all these people out here. And, I had to go back to my high school.

T.J.: 01:28:16

That's funny. It's you reversed it. So you're Yeah. One of the youngest in the program of alternate studies, and then going back to the community college, then you're the old one.

Nick: 01:28:26

Yeah. It was like it was tough, you know. And, I got my high school transcripts. It was kinda embarrassing, you know, because like I said, I was a terrible student. I had decent grades, but a lot of it was just I played the system.

Nick: 01:28:37

You know? I mean, I just did what I had to. And, so I went out to college and enrolled out there. And, yeah, I'm I'm so thankful for the church I was at. They paid for all my college classes.

Nick: 01:28:50

They paid for my books. They were very gracious to me and, gave me time to study. So I started in I took all online classes even though it was closed. I was like, I'm not I'm not coming here to sit in class like young kids. You know?

Nick: 01:29:09

But, I I I started at home, man. It was weird because I've worked so much all my life, and, here I am, 2 kids. I'm I'm home. We didn't have a church office, so we set up a room in our house. This is my office, and, man, I get up every day, sleep in.

Nick: 01:29:26

I mean, I I would sleep in till, like, 6, 6:30, and I had to start reading books and writing papers, you know, and, I had to drive, man. I can't explain it. I just had to drive. I wanna get done. I'm ready to be done.

Nick: 01:29:40

I know everybody that's a candidate has it at some point, and they're just like, I wanna finish. Mhmm.

T.J.: 01:29:46

And and can't do it fast enough.

Nick: 01:29:48

Right. Can't do it fast enough. And, doctor Campbell told me one time and we disagree on some stuff, but I I like doctor Campbell. He was a very good mentor through the process. But he told me one time that the the journey the Israelites made from Egypt to the promised land was a short journey.

Nick: 01:30:07

You look on the map, and you think, man, I walked that in a month, you know, at a slow pace. He said, but in 40 years, he said, look at all the experience they learned on the journey. And he said, you need to experience the journey. And I'll never forget that. One of the wisest things he ever left me with was experience the journey.

Nick: 01:30:29

And I've told Kenneth that now who are at same place that I was, and nobody wants to hear that, you know. And I wanna get done. I'm like, I know I were where I was where you were. I remember that. And I'm on the committee.

Nick: 01:30:41

I'm on the ministry now. Mhmm. Anyhow, so I I began doing that, you know, down to 3 services. Only 1 on Sunday morning, which was a relief. Uh-huh.

Nick: 01:30:52

Sunday night, Wednesday night. At some point in that time period, my brother, he was pastor of church here in town, had left, and, I did Sunday night there. My aunt did Sunday morning, but, he was gone. I did Sunday night there. So it was 1 Sunday morning, 2 Sunday nights.

Nick: 01:31:11

You know? So it was there. I got, I mean, I got a lot of experience fast. I I wouldn't recommend it to anybody, but I wouldn't trade anything for it at the same time.

T.J.: 01:31:26

Yeah. This is why I started the conversation with what kind of jobs you had and and about your work ethic. And I didn't even know this educational I didn't know your educational path.

Nick: 01:31:39

Yeah. So I

T.J.: 01:31:41

just Yeah.

Nick: 01:31:41

And I was too young. I didn't know that thing. They're like, nobody your age goes to pause. You know? And my pastor, he was an advocate for me to go to pause, but, it is a path.

Nick: 01:31:51

I mean, we have it down, and I think it's a good one. There's a lot of misconception about the Paws program. Actually, when I was I was an elder, the first time I went to GA, I was on the committee that dealt with that. They were trying to raise the price of us to be equal to that in seminary, and I didn't know anything about it then. You know?

Nick: 01:32:10

And and I remember doctor Campbell coming in that committee and saying, it's not the same thing. It's a difference. Totally different. You know, you can't compare the 2, and you can. It's different.

Nick: 01:32:19

The one of the great things about pause, we would meet at the gazebo there at Bethel, and we'd have prayer meeting every morning at 6 o'clock. I miss that more than anything because now there's nobody at 6 o'clock to meet with, to pray with, The, you know, you're on your own. Yeah. Yeah. It is a great experience.

Nick: 01:32:39

Also, in that time, I'm working on my school. My wife has struggled since she was a teenager with anorexia. And, she just got to a point. A lot of stress. We were at her home church, which was tough from being the kid that, you know, everybody watch grow up to now you're the preacher's wife.

Nick: 01:33:10

It was tough on her. A lot of the stresses. Having kids, tough. We are a 3rd, was born after we were at that church. And, I don't know.

Nick: 01:33:25

Like, she never recovered from that. She just she just stressed. She dealt with a lot of depression. Anyhow, so that next February, I called, focused on the family. Just looking for help.

Nick: 01:33:45

Preachers don't have any help. Right? I mean, you don't have a pastor anymore. I'm still a yeah. I'm still a candidate at this point.

Nick: 01:33:51

So I am the pastor. You know, I don't have anybody. There was not another ordained minister in the Camden area at the time. So I called. I was like, hey.

Nick: 01:34:04

My wife, she's struggling, and, I need help. And they recommended, I don't know if I can say it or not, but, Ramuda Ranch, out in, Arizona. And, she was £90, I think. I flew to I flew her to Arizona. She wouldn't go by herself.

Nick: 01:34:25

So hopped on a plane in Little Rock. Flew her to Arizona, dropped her off with the people there, turned around, got a plane, flew back. I did on a Saturday. So I flew all day long, and I got back, preached Sunday morning. Looking back, I probably should've took some leave or something.

Nick: 01:34:46

Mhmm. But now I'm full time ministry. This is my only source of income, and it's nowhere near what I was making before. And, I just kinda looked at it. I can't afford to stop.

Nick: 01:34:58

You know? I can't afford time off. Right. So I just kept plugging away. Back to that not compassionate guy, I put my black and white hat on, and it says, you're the minister.

Nick: 01:35:13

It's your job to be there for these people. You deal with your own stuff on your own time, and that's that's what I did. Anyhow, so she was there, for 6 weeks. They saved her life. No doubt.

Nick: 01:35:32

I took care of 3 kids. The youngest was 6 months old. I took care of 3 of them, did my pause work, did my secular schoolwork, all right there. I became mom and dad. I'd never lifted a finger to clean the house or do much of anything.

Nick: 01:35:52

I'd always worked. And I mean, when I say worked, I worked 12, 14 hour days every day, sometimes 16. My wife took care of the house. She hadn't worked since we had our first kid and kinda like that is my role, your role. And so I never done anything in the house, really.

Nick: 01:36:10

And, now I'm doing it all. You know? Folding laundry, which I hated. Cooking. I I could cook.

Nick: 01:36:19

I always been able to do stuff like that, but I might take care of everything. To cook the kids. I think a lot of people thought I couldn't do it. The church would they would they wanna feed us. So somebody would bring us a meal every every night, you know.

Nick: 01:36:33

Yeah. Stuff my kids wouldn't eat, you know. It was to feed me and I said to cook for them, you know. I remember somebody brought us a whole hen, you know, and I I cooked it, and I sat on the table, and my 2 oldest kids are like, what is that? I was like, it's chicken.

Nick: 01:36:50

And they're like, it didn't look like chicken to us. Yeah. They wouldn't eat it, you know. My mom would always kinda cater to them, you know, whatever they like and stuff. And I'm just like, eat or starve, you know.

Nick: 01:37:02

And I cried for a while. I finally fixed them something. But, anyhow, it was that was a tough time of our life. I did at that time. Shout out to Pat Pickett.

Nick: 01:37:16

She, she gave me an extension. Only extension I ever asked for were one of my POS classes. And I told her where I was at, and I was like, I just I can't. You know, it's crazy because I was working 80 hours a week and doing this, and now I'm, you know, here, but I'm I'm taking care of these kids, you know, and trying to do the school and all this. And, I just I I couldn't get it all together.

Nick: 01:37:38

You know? And I didn't visit anybody, do anything that time. Had 3 kids, had nobody to watch them. Right. If it had happened at a different time before we quit logging, you know, my mom worked from home.

Nick: 01:37:51

She could've watched them. But now she's working a job. You know? My mother-in-law worked. So, I mean, I pretty much just stayed there.

Nick: 01:37:59

If I went anywhere, all 3 kids went with me. And, I mean, you know, in or 6 month old, 2 year old, 4 year old, they went with me, which was interesting. But, I actually got licensed at Presbytery, during that time. I made it to Presbytery to the meeting and realized I forgot to pack any of their clothes, because I've never done that. My wife, she did everything.

Nick: 01:38:25

And, so I went to Walmart after the meeting and I had to buy them all clothes for the rest of the time, you know. And I mean, I'm in the meeting and watch, you know, these 3 little kids and I don't know. We made it somehow. You know? Mhmm.

Nick: 01:38:39

And,

T.J.: 01:38:41

and And your wife.

Nick: 01:38:43

Yeah. And so she, she came back in April, and, it was an adjustment. I mean, she had to learn, you know, how to cope with stuff, all that stuff. I told you at first, I'm open, so I'm a be open. That that hurt our ministry.

Nick: 01:39:06

I think people thought she was weak. It it changed the relationship at the church, with her. She she needed a lot of time to heal. She didn't have time to be pastor's wife, be all that to anybody. I just I feel like a lot of stress happened through that.

Nick: 01:39:33

And there's a lot of things that I was trying to do different. I didn't wanna be the previous pastor that had been there 12 years. I felt like a lot of people wanted me to be that person, and I wasn't. I'm my own person. You know?

Nick: 01:39:46

Mhmm. And so sometime after that, that kinda started deteriorating. But I finished pause right after that, the year that she had got done. I got, my ordination service at that church, was great. I felt like I'm at the pinnacle, you know.

Nick: 01:40:08

I mean, all these things that finally have no school left to do. Right. And, it was really just feeling like I was getting started. And within the next year, it just crumbled. And so we were there two and a half years.

Nick: 01:40:22

And, you know, I look back now, a lot of things I'd have done different. You're so full of ideas when you're new to ministry. All the books you read, the stuff you discuss. I think everybody comes out of school, you know, want to save the world. You realize the church really just wants somebody to bring a sermon on Sunday and visit the shut in.

Nick: 01:40:50

And, you know, I I wanna change the world. You know? Mhmm. So this would be, like, May of o nine. We just had our 4th kid in January, and, I resigned.

Nick: 01:41:15

There he's let me go.

T.J.: 01:41:18

Did you have anything lined up?

Nick: 01:41:20

Had nothing. I I had I had done some interviews, at some places. I wanted to go to one church. I really wanted to go. And I was kinda cocky at the at that thought point.

Nick: 01:41:38

I had a lot of I've been patching back and saying, you know, hey, you're a really good preacher. You know? I don't know if you ever had somebody bragging on you, you know, when you think, you know, I'm the best preacher there he is. You know? You you just you're you're not that the spot in your your ministry where you just, and I was I was on fire, man.

Nick: 01:41:57

I I look back to some of the sermons. I was a better preacher then than I am now as far as sermon. You know? I just I was on fire. I was everything out of the box.

Nick: 01:42:11

Somebody hit on Ed Young the other day. I watched Ed Young, Fellowship Church out of Dallas. I watched him a lot. I don't agree with everything he does or says, but, man, he's just really creative. And I think to reach people outside, we've got to and I'm not saying we compromise on what we believe.

Nick: 01:42:33

I don't compromise. But we've gotta get creative about how we speak to people and how we reach them and where we go. Paul said I become all things to all men that I might reach some. Mhmm. And I don't think we're as a church, I don't think we're trying to reach some.

Nick: 01:42:48

The only efforts I see to make are we, you know, we decide, you know, believe what you wanna believe, come in, however you wanna be, stay that way. And I'm against that.

T.J.: 01:42:57

Yeah. Well, there's a difference between the delivery of the message and the content of the message.

Nick: 01:43:03

Right. Right. And so so I was man, I was outside. I mean, I'm talking, just outside the box. My sermon, too bad we weren't videoing anything back then.

Nick: 01:43:14

But, I mean, I was just getting outside the box and doing all kinds of crazy things.

T.J.: 01:43:19

Give give me a great example.

Nick: 01:43:22

Oh, okay. So so I'll give you 2. 1 okay. My my grandpa, again, my my he's my mentor. I never seen my grandpa enter the pulpit without a suit and tie.

Nick: 01:43:35

Mhmm. And that meant a lot to me, and that's I patterned that. I didn't go anywhere. I wasn't wearing a coat and tie. And, I didn't feel right.

Nick: 01:43:44

If I was behind the pulpit, I felt like I was supposed to have a coat and tie. And so I had read a book. It's on my shelf. I can't remember the name of it. Yeah.

Nick: 01:43:55

I was talking about being a fan, and I love sports. And so, the sermon, best I remember, this has been a long time ago. The best I remember, it was kind of like, you know, when we go to a game, how we respond to our team. You know? What do you do when you go to a game?

Nick: 01:44:13

You wear the team gear, the team logo, the hat, the shirt, the jersey, whatever. You you dress the part. You go. You interact. And so that's what it was.

Nick: 01:44:20

So I was like, everybody, wear your team stuff, whatever it is. So I did, man. I'm Miami Dolphins fan. Been away for a long time. Favorite number is 13.

Nick: 01:44:29

I'm Dan Marino all the way. You know? I mean, that's that's my thing. So I wore my my jersey, you know. My brother bought me this, Chris Chambers jersey, who was a receiver for the Dolphins.

Nick: 01:44:42

So it's got my name on the back of it. 84. I still got my closet. I wore it, you know. I preached and I was like, this is so outside of me.

Nick: 01:44:50

But I got people involved and people who are wearing this stuff. My wife's dad rides bikes. So, you know, he had a he had a biker jersey on from one of the races he does, you know. Other people, whatever sport they were into, they were it was like, I'm getting people involved and, like, it's something different than the every Sunday thing. And I remember and I I just came up with that on my own, but it was it came from watching some Ed Young stuff about getting people involved in what was going on.

Nick: 01:45:18

It changed anybody's life? Probably not. Did it get people talking? Definitely. You know?

Nick: 01:45:24

Definitely got people talking. I wore jeans and a jersey, mountable pen. It got me outside of my comfort zone. One Sunday, I brought a treadmill in and a recliner, and so I said I moved the pulpit out of the way. I had treadmill on one side, recliner on the other, and, you know, I had the little mic on the air, you know, where I can run around.

Nick: 01:45:46

And I was in a sermon on being lazy, how we would've come to church and sit in a recliner. This is Christian, recliner Christian. Alright. Or then we, like, we jump up and, you know, we got these new people in and they're on the treadmill. And how long are you on the treadmill till you get tired and you wanna go sit down or recliner?

Nick: 01:46:03

You know, so I was back. Like, I was doing junk like this. I mean, like, Saturday was like, what all can I bring into the search to do something? My content was the same. I'm always the same.

Nick: 01:46:13

You know, I'm very conservative as far as, you know, approach the bible. I don't really like labels because that always puts you into a something, but but if you wanna label it, that's where a traditionalist, I guess, maybe is a better word. I don't know if I like that because I'm the revivalist of the 18/10 movie. That's all I'm but, anyway, we all get these labels, but they all mean different things to different people. But,

T.J.: 01:46:38

Right. Right. Right.

Nick: 01:46:39

I'm 1810 Cumberland. Okay?

T.J.: 01:46:41

Alright. How about I just call you Nick?

Nick: 01:46:44

Yeah. That's good. And so

T.J.: 01:46:47

You use these visual effects, I mean, especially with the couch and the, treadmill. I don't know how much larger you can get with an actual, physical model to

Nick: 01:47:01

I've got ideas, but they're just they're huge if they need a budget. You know? We we went to c 3, which is Ed Young's thing. And, they talked about a lot of that stuff that goes in there. And I have, done they have a creative team of people at their church they bring in.

Nick: 01:47:17

They're they're part of the team. I did this on the Mississippi. Brought people in there on the creative team, and people take him out of context. He would bring people in that have different outlooks in the church. Maybe you're not an elder or deacon or whatever.

Nick: 01:47:35

How do you see things? You start seeing from their perspective, and it helps you as a pastor. Okay. I need to focus on this. Okay?

Nick: 01:47:44

I need to look at this. People are curious about this topic, and it helps you build on that. And, we did that when I was in Mississippi. I created a little team of people, some young, some old, some new, some been in church a while. I built I built 4 or 5 sermon series out of it.

Nick: 01:48:02

I was just taking notes. They were talking, you know, and, different stuff. I was jotting down stuff. And the only reason I quit was because some people are like, well, why why why didn't you choose me? Well, I'm not on that.

Nick: 01:48:15

You know? What are y'all doing? Because I didn't tell anybody really what I was doing. Because I just I'm looking for input. Right.

T.J.: 01:48:23

I can preach on

Nick: 01:48:25

I can preach on any topic in the Bible. You just open it up, find a topic. I can build a sermon on it. Mhmm. But to me, I wanna know where people are.

Nick: 01:48:33

What do people need? Because if they're not learning, I'm just talking. Mhmm. And I'm not a big talker. I want to see people learn.

Nick: 01:48:45

I wanna see that transition in their life. And Paul talked about being transformed, and I don't think we talk about that enough in the church about people being transformed. We we come as we are, but we wanna stay there. I wanna see somebody transform their life. And so that that was my goal.

Nick: 01:49:05

Ed Young said this at the end of his conference, because there were some things there that I did not agree with. You know, just you know, some things can get out of hand and, with some of the speakers. But he drew a picture on a big marker board, of a fish, And he said, eat fish, throw the bones away. And I I went from there to that. The things that I enjoyed, I kept.

Nick: 01:49:32

Things I'd agree with, I left them there. You know? That's the only time we ever went to C3, and I'd love I always love to go back, but, it just it don't work. Especially being a bivocational, it don't work. But, anyhow, it was cool.

Nick: 01:49:51

I'm I'm gonna get off, where we were at on accident. But, we went to that conference, and it's all pastors and music leaders, stuff like that. Mhmm. And they got these big doors in their church, like, 4 big giant doors within the sanctuary, and they lock it up until so many minutes before church starts. And, we were, like, looking at the gift shop, and they had all these things set up.

Nick: 01:50:14

You know? And, they had a DJ spinning records in there in the lobby. Very not CP. It was cool to me. I mean, you know, it's just so non churchy, you know.

Nick: 01:50:30

It was like, oh, this is neat. Right. They opened the doors and you would have thought, it was a massive concert. People were racing to the front pew. And I'm, like, you know, here we are, and I was, like, man, we're stuck in the back.

Nick: 01:50:44

And I went back to church the next week, and I said something about, you know, man, it'd be cool to be in a church and everybody rushed to have the front pew, you know. If we just lock the doors and wait till quarter till and then open them up and everybody rushed to look at the first seat, that's never gonna happen. But we're gonna sit where we said last week and the 20 years prior. But, it was a neat experience to see that creativity. And so I try to pull a lot of that to my ministry there in the beginning.

Nick: 01:51:16

Mhmm. And I did get some of that thrown in my face as we left that first church, which crushed me. And, I kinda shifted back to just being, you know, writing the sermon. Forget the extra stuff. Because it takes a lot, man, to put yourself out there, to be risky.

Nick: 01:51:37

And I don't mean risky in a bad way, but just to go outside the norm.

T.J.: 01:51:41

Right. I It takes planning as well. I mean, to move a sofa, to move a treadmill, move furniture within the church, which probably was the most offensive thing.

Nick: 01:51:53

I moved the pulpit, over to the side, and I quit. At some point there, I quit using the pulpit. Mhmm. I stood. I usually took a little bar stool out there, set my bible on.

Nick: 01:52:06

Mhmm. I take notes when I study, and I I can't read them. I mean, I I don't I don't even try really. There's something I wanna remember. I highlight my stuff, But, it's just, I think taking notes helps me mentally bookmark it, but I'm pretty much free to go.

Nick: 01:52:33

I don't I don't need notes. I take them every Sunday. I rarely ever look at anything. I I almost become part of the message. Like, I'm just an instrument in there.

Nick: 01:52:47

Yeah. I don't know if you play, instrument or not. Remember when I first started playing the guitar, you know, I'd be playing, and, like, you gotta look down there where your your fingers are at, you know, to know if I'm in the right spot. And if you play a while, I mean, I know that's g. I don't even have to look.

Nick: 01:53:01

My fingers know where it's g. I know where to change. I know I can slide up and down. I know where I'm at. And preaching is the same way for me.

Nick: 01:53:12

I study the text as hard as I can. I take some notes. I mentally bookmark, and then, I somehow know where I'm at. My ADD every night and I have a cool story I was gonna tell, and I forgot it. I I may go a different direction than I thought I would.

Nick: 01:53:30

When I first started preaching, I would preach the same sermon at one of those 2 churches. I'd preach the same sermon, same text, same everything. It'd be 2 different sermons. And my wife would be the only one that knew the difference. She was like, that didn't even sound the same, you know.

T.J.: 01:53:44

Now do you do you work on it mentally throughout the week, you know, over the years? Because you've had some jobs where you're driving, so there's that alone time. Being out in the woods, that's alone time. Even behind a saw, you know, I mean, you can get into a groove to where you're there in in the body and you're doing those activities, but you can still kind of communicate with God, develop a sermon, think about what you're gonna say. Do you operate that way?

T.J.: 01:54:16

Or or Yeah. Is your life so compartmentalized?

Nick: 01:54:19

Okay. So I've changed through the years just because my life is kind of ebbed and flowed. Yeah. So at one point, I would always wanna have my sermon text on Monday. Mhmm.

Nick: 01:54:36

And and I shoot from the hip, one shot. And I can I don't like to? I can prepare multiple sermons at one time, but, I don't operate like that very good. It just it gets confusing in my head because everything is in my head. If I could manuscript, I could probably do that, and then, you know, compartment out.

Nick: 01:55:04

But I I can't the way I do it. Not not effectively. I can get a sermon, but I don't think it's very good. And maybe that's just my critique of myself. But, so I would get my my sermon text and then just ponder it all week, till I have time to sit down and, you know, kinda jot some thoughts down.

Nick: 01:55:32

Now I don't. Which now I try to do more series now or, like, whatever you wanna call it, verse by verse. So I got you know, I know where I'm at Sunday. I know what's next in the story. So that's in my head.

Nick: 01:55:46

Because, like, I'm in the Exodus right now. I know the next thing is gonna happen. Yeah. I've already been given thought to that. Oh,

T.J.: 01:55:52

yeah. That would certainly help kind of in terms of planning of where you are short term Yeah. And long term, actually. Yeah.

Nick: 01:56:00

When I was full time, I was totally different. So full time, Monday morning, I get up, I come to my desk, You know, have a moment with God, and I flip the pages. You know? I'm just digging. And it's always mysterious to me how I find where I'm at and stop digging and start, you know, planning.

Nick: 01:56:29

I I can't answer. I don't know. My wife always she'll come to me and she'll say, hey. I heard something today. You should do a sermon in this, and she'll bring it to me.

Nick: 01:56:37

And I look at it, and like, it don't feel right, and I'll go. And, she didn't wanna do anymore. She's like, you're not gonna preach anything I ever And I was like, I can't tell you. It just has to feel right. Like, there's just that feeling inside and it's just getting involved and say, oh, yeah, this is it.

Nick: 01:56:56

Being bivocational, though, it's so much easier just to go verse by verse. A lot of my prep time is finding where to be. You know? When I'm planning, this is the text, man, I can whoop one out fast. I just, it just starts coming.

Nick: 01:57:15

You know? Thoughts start coming. That creativity starts flowing. Ideas start going. I'll jot some of those ideas down.

Nick: 01:57:26

It it just I don't know. It comes together. But it's never together until it comes out because I have no idea what it's gonna be like, till it starts going. I tell you earlier, I'm 20, 25 minute guy. Now I hit a hot streak on 1, and, I went 45 minutes on a sermon not too long ago.

Nick: 01:57:44

I've never preached that long. I know Bible stay that long, but, like, I I just intentionally, I do not do a sermon that long. But it was just I I just felt hot, and and it was just rolling. But did you did

T.J.: 01:57:57

you feel the sense of time, though? Did you know it was 45 minutes?

Nick: 01:58:01

I I thought it might have been

T.J.: 01:58:04

30. Long. Little bit longer. Yeah.

Nick: 01:58:07

But, I don't look at a watch. I look at the clock. I just I feel when it starts. I feel when it closes. Mhmm.

Nick: 01:58:15

I asked doctor Campbell one time, his probably his second great wisdom that I kept from him. I asked him, I said, doctor Campbell, how long should a sermon be? And he said, it should seem like 20 minutes. So he said it can be shorter, but it better feel like 20, you know. Mhmm.

Nick: 01:58:32

Or it can be longer, but it's to feel like 20. And, so that's my goal. I'm I I shoot for 20 minutes and, it's usually 25, sometimes 30. Depends on the topic. Some stuff's easier to preach on than others.

Nick: 01:58:45

The church against my YouTube, I I tell them, I said, y'all might wanna put it on speed and a half on that one. It's 45 minute long. Paul's in the military bathroom break or whatever. But, I don't know. It just

T.J.: 01:58:59

it comes out. Let's shift gears. We were talking off, Mike, about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and you, this spring, have been nominated for moderator of the General Assembly of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. So how how did that happen? What made you say yes and not no?

Nick: 01:59:26

Well, yeah. I did say no.

T.J.: 01:59:27

That sounds very negative. I didn't necessarily mean it that way. No.

Nick: 01:59:30

No. No. I'll tell you a back story and then I'll answer your question. So when I was in when I was going through Paws, I guess when I started full time, one of the things the first church I was at said, hey. We'll pay your GA expenses.

Nick: 01:59:50

I was like, every year? And they're like, yeah. I was like, that's cool. I'm gonna go then. So I went, and I can't remember the year.

Nick: 02:00:00

Somebody here doesn't know. I was a youth delegate to GA at Chattanooga 97, 98, somewhere in there. I can't remember. I tried to look it up, when I did my little bio for the magazine, and I, for some reason, I couldn't find the years where we were. Mhmm.

Nick: 02:00:17

First experience at GA. I'd went to Senate before, with my mom when I was in 5th grade. Because it's in Little Rock and they had Toys R Us there, and she told me that she'd buy my birthday present. It was on my birthday. She bought me a birthday present.

Nick: 02:00:31

I could pick it out, you know, but I had ascended.

T.J.: 02:00:33

Alright. I appreciate the backstory because I'm like, why would you remember attending synod in the 5th grade? Now I know.

Nick: 02:00:39

So so I went. So so my grandpa's a minister. My mom was the elder, delegate there. And so so we were all there here in 5th grade going to senate, you know, which I mean, you wanna know how geeky CP we are. Here we are.

Nick: 02:00:59

It was in Little Rock. That was when it was Arkansas, and, I basically just had free roam at the hotel. Ran around the hotel all day long. And then, you know, I went to Toys R Us and bought some kind of electronic gadget that I I'm sure I wanted. So Doctor.

Nick: 02:01:15

Nico GA came up, and I went. I chatted Ngo. It was cool. Like I said, I was 17 18, somewhere in there. And I've been, you know, somewhere in that neighborhood.

Nick: 02:01:27

The press carrier gave us $500, and I said, hey. You can, you know, get your hotel and, you know, whatever you want, sightseeing, whatever you wanna do, you know, it's donuts. You know, have a good time. And, I got to the hotel and booked my room. It's 4.99.

Nick: 02:01:43

I said, wow. I got a dollar left. But, that was my first GA experience. It's pretty cool. And so then when I became an elder, we go alphabetical, and the church I was going to my grandpa's church at that time right after I got out of, decent school.

Nick: 02:02:01

And, it just came up. It was East Camden was a church. And so I was, it was me and an old guy. The only reason I was an elder, they they needed another person, you know. They were small and, he didn't wanna go.

Nick: 02:02:13

So I was gonna go. I was like, this is cool. And so, again, I'm the youngest person in the room. Right? Everybody thought he was a youth delegate.

Nick: 02:02:20

I think I was 20, mate. It's in Paducah.

T.J.: 02:02:22

Okay.

Nick: 02:02:24

That was early, maybe 2,001, somewhere in there. Yeah. I was married, so I had at least 2,001. So we went. I'm the elder delegate.

Nick: 02:02:34

And, again, you know, it was it was a neat experience. And so when they told me I could go, they would send me every year. I was gonna go. And so I started going to GA, and I was like, oh, this is neat, you know. And I was like, man, this would be so cool to be the moderator, you know.

Nick: 02:02:50

I mean, I mean Even

T.J.: 02:02:51

back then. Even back

Nick: 02:02:52

then, you know. Alright. And, so, that was, I guess, when I was still in pause. I was like, you know, now one day I'll finally finish this thing, get ordained, and be cool. And, I don't know.

Nick: 02:03:09

I was I was kinda thought it'd be cool. And then when I went back to my vocational, it was kinda like, I quit going to press, I mean, GA because, you know, I gotta work now. Mhmm. And, I don't know. That's that's kinda the end of it.

Nick: 02:03:21

And, I kinda figured I'd never go. Whenever it's my turn to go as a commissioner, I'll take off work. But, so somebody text me, back in August and not in August. I was trying to look back at my thing. February.

Nick: 02:03:42

Excuse me. February. And simple text, let me nominate you for GA moderator. I do not respond. I think I was eating supper.

Nick: 02:03:53

I laughed a little bit. I told my wife. Uh-huh. She laughed. Then he text back, says, let me rephrase it into a question.

Nick: 02:04:01

Would you consider being nominated by Arkansas Presented for GA moderator? I said, I would, but I really don't have extra time to do a decent job. Plus, I'm probably way too conservative to be elected, so I'll have to do that. So couple days go by, he keeps messaging me. I said, let me think about it.

Nick: 02:04:29

And so it was like, you know, I mean, at one time when I was in pause, I thought it'd be nice. Did a pretty cool job. Was like, you know what? It's always the way it is. You know?

Nick: 02:04:41

When I had time, I could probably do it. You know? It's not there. Now I don't have time. And, I told my wife that.

Nick: 02:04:51

And she said, but you said before it was on your, you know, things you'd love to do in the church. So, yeah, it is, but it just it's not me now. You know? I just I can't do it. So I called my brother, and, we talked a little bit.

Nick: 02:05:06

And he said, you know, it'll be 10 years or better for you're even a commissioner again. Like, shoot. That'll be at 54. You know? That's a long time.

Nick: 02:05:19

Maybe life will be different. You know? Mhmm. Maybe things will slow down. And so I just kinda left you with that.

Nick: 02:05:29

And that little voice in the head, you know, It's like, what if I want you to do it? And I'm like, you know, I hate when you get those feelings. You know, like, God's opened up every door that I've ever went through. I've always felt underqualified, In long, and I've always felt very qualified. And, if I can humbly say, I could operate almost any piece of equipment as good or better than anybody out there.

Nick: 02:06:06

As far as driving and hauling wood, I I can haul more than anybody. I can go harder, longer. I can do it. I come back in the church. I've always felt like I'm at the bottom.

Nick: 02:06:18

You know, I'm just a guy with a pause as an older student, you know, late in the game. You know? But I've always been a yes man to God. So so I said, alright, Lord. I don't know if this is you or not because that's kinda how I pray sometimes.

Nick: 02:06:39

I don't know if it's you or not or just my crazy head. I said, but if you want me to do it, you make it work out. I'll say yes. You work it out. If it's the answer is no, you know, I'm fine with that.

Nick: 02:06:51

And so I told my wife that. I said, so here's what I'm feeling. I'm feeling like saying yes. I'll do it. It don't work out.

Nick: 02:06:58

It wasn't meant to be, and it ain't on me. And, you know, I gave it a shot. So I kinda think that's was once in a lifetime things. You know, usually, you don't get nominated, and if you don't make it, you know, 10 years from now, let's try them again. You know?

Nick: 02:07:13

It's kind of a one and done kinda thing. What

T.J.: 02:07:17

was the attraction, back when you were a post student, to the, the role of moderator?

Nick: 02:07:26

So back in high school, I was on parliamentary procedure team Mhmm. In FFA. And so there's actually a couple girls who were on there that I knew, and they're like, hey. We need some more people in this team or we can have a team. And so that's the only reason I said yes.

Nick: 02:07:44

You know? And so I did, and I was just one of the pea and on that, it's like you have a a chair and you have, 4 or 5 people. They're sitting at a table, and so in competition, you come in, you sit down, you have an issue to debate

T.J.: 02:07:59

Mhmm.

Nick: 02:08:00

And several motions, different kinds of motions you have to make and then you have to just free will it after that. I mean, they don't tell you what to say. You just, you know, if if you have a motion to amend, you just motion to amend whatever else somebody made the motion on. You just go with it, you know? It was actually pretty fun in a nerdy kind of way.

Nick: 02:08:17

Because usually FFA is, like, you know, cows and pigs and, you know, chickens and dirty stuff. And so, the girl who is the chair graduated. She's the one that got me on there. And so the next year, they're like, you're coming back. And I was like, I guess.

Nick: 02:08:32

You know? And, like, would you be chair? Sure, you know. And so I gotta be the chair my senior year. And it's it's kinda fun, to be honest with you.

Nick: 02:08:43

And it wasn't really my cup of tea back in high school. But, so I guess that's where it stemmed from. I, you know, I thought it was kinda cool. Just Yeah.

T.J.: 02:08:52

Got a taste of it early on of Yeah. Kinda like cheering, moderating a meeting.

Nick: 02:08:58

Yeah. My grandpa had always, been really involved in Presbyterian. He had quite the reputation, just, you know, being moderator, doing things. Maybe he's a little bit out of following in his footsteps a little bit. So, that was kinda it.

Nick: 02:09:18

When I was in Grace Presbyterian, man, I wasn't there long. We were only in Mississippi 6 years. They had asked me to moderate Grace. And it was kinda one of those moments like, okay, Lord. Now I know why you wanted me to be on this parliamentary thing back in school.

Nick: 02:09:33

You know? You're you're preparing me for something. And so, yeah, I served there and then which I just got through serving as moderator in Arkansas. And I've almost been here 2 whole years because we do, like, vice moderators, which you're nominated for, and then the next year, you move up. Yeah.

Nick: 02:09:52

And so the guy who is moderator at the the first meeting, it snowed, and he didn't make it. And, I'm just fast. It snowed, and we just make it up there. I'm in jeans and t shirt, you know. And, I get to meeting, and they're like, you're gonna have to moderate.

Nick: 02:10:06

Oh, great. This is embarrassing. You know? And so, I mean, I look like John Fetterman, you know, up here, in a hoodie. So, anyhow, so I did that meeting, and he did the Saturday.

Nick: 02:10:23

And then the next meeting, his wife passed, and so he didn't make it to that one either. So I moderated it. And then, so the next two times for me too. So I just kind of been stuck moderator, and, I'm a drill sergeant, on the moderator thing. I just I keep it flowing.

Nick: 02:10:40

You know? I'm chop, chop, chop. Because I live on the secular side, I live in the production thing, and everything is snap, snap, snap. I'm black and white. And people actually appreciate that because we get out early.

T.J.: 02:10:53

And Yeah. Yeah.

Nick: 02:10:55

So so that's I guess that's all I want. I said, I finally taste it back. I said, you know, if that's what y'all wanna do, I'll I'll do it. You know? So here I am and, Yeah.

Nick: 02:11:07

I'd love to do it. I love the CP Church. I don't take it lightly. It is a big job. If I wasn't working for myself, I probably would have said flat no.

Nick: 02:11:20

I have another guy that works for me. So, I'm kinda at that stage where I can be a little flexible, you know, if I need to be somewhere. Not just me depending on me to make a living. I got another truck running. So, I don't know.

Nick: 02:11:36

You know? I'll try it. And if I don't if I don't mind I think there's only 2 of us. So I guess I guess it's 1 or the other.

T.J.: 02:11:42

Right. Yeah. So, you're most likely, in a couple of months, gonna be voted either as moderator or elected as moderator or vice moderator. You know, the church is going through the season of change, duress. I'm sure we could come up with all different kinds of nouns.

T.J.: 02:12:02

But how would you whether you're elected moderator or vice moderator, how would you help the church kind of move beyond areas of contention? Or are you gonna stoke it with your black and white hat?

Nick: 02:12:25

Here's here's the problem I see. And this is tough. And I I've been all over this issue, And I don't know that I'm I'm settled on either way, honestly. A little bit, I feel like we're at an impasse, which sucks. I mean, it really does.

Nick: 02:12:54

And we've been that way for a while. I know, I served on the CMT for a few years. Saw a lot of letters come in. People want them to get posted, and they never got posted. They got they got trash can somewhere.

Nick: 02:13:14

You know, really, it's on the I'd boil it down to just a homosexual issue, but I mean, that's the main topic. I don't know that we're ever gonna reconcile. I don't think we're gonna reconcile. So it's how do you move forward. And you look at, every denomination that's went through this, and it's tore us apart, or tore them apart.

Nick: 02:13:46

They lost members. We we've lost members. Everywhere I go, I see, you know, people discuss it, which we've been Presbyterian for so long ever since the PCUSA church, went down this road. Everywhere you go, that's all people hear is we're Presbyterian. You know, what's what's the answer?

Nick: 02:14:09

Is it unity for the sake of unity? Or is it reconciliation on this side of, we all wanna agree and get along? And I don't have an answer for that, honestly. I don't I don't know. I don't think unity for the sake of unity is right.

Nick: 02:14:34

I feel like a hypocrite being a Cumberland saying that separating is wrong because we came out of PCUSA. You know? We left the Presbyterian Church and started our own. So I don't like it when people say, well, you're we're wrong if we separate. So as moderator, if so elected, I would like to see some common ground, like, where we at.

Nick: 02:15:03

And maybe that's just in having an honest discussion because you know as well as I do. Anytime the topic comes up, it gets heated, and we can't discuss anymore. I mean, it's, we draw swords and we're ready for battle. You know? How is that guy?

Nick: 02:15:25

I mean, I remember I remember being on the old cumber list. You know? And well, they can that thing. Somebody posted the commenters on there, and I made top 10 somehow or another. And,

T.J.: 02:15:43

That goes so far back. I mean, I wasn't on it. But

Nick: 02:15:47

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people don't even remember it. There's a lot of discussions on there. I remember having some heated discussions in the same topics, and so that tells you how long we've been discussing it.

Nick: 02:15:57

And I remember being so mad, I couldn't go to sleep at night. And my wife would be like, would you just get off that list? Just get off of you know? I think people care because there's passion, because we all wanna see the church, you know, survive and go through this. So I don't know.

Nick: 02:16:18

I mean, I don't know what the answer is. I'm not gonna pretend that I have the right answer. But I wanted to where we can discuss it honestly and cordially. And we're we're in that place now. So if you say anything negative, everybody's like, you're a hater, you know.

Nick: 02:16:40

I get that. And that's why I've stopped comment on a lot of stuff because, I'm black and white. I'm in your face. I mean, I'm, things that hurt people's feelings don't bother me a bit. You know, I'm just, like I said, I mean, I work in the woods.

Nick: 02:16:56

You know? I mean, you look up heat heathen in the dictionary. I mean, there's some of those guys I work with. I mean, they're, they're so far out. So stuff like that don't bother me.

Nick: 02:17:08

I like a good heated debate. Maybe that goes back to that parliamentary team I was on. I I enjoy it. Mhmm. But I I see some people are very sensitive and they, you know if you say something negative, they get really upset.

Nick: 02:17:24

I don't want us to be that way. I want us to discuss it, but it is a hill that we're gonna have to settle to move forward as a church. And that's just a fact. Does that mean we separate? Maybe.

Nick: 02:17:43

If we do, that's not the worst thing in the world either. You know? Paul and Barnabas, they separated and had 2 ministries. But the longer we prolong whatever, I think it hurts the church. I think the quicker we say, okay.

Nick: 02:18:01

This is where we're at. We need a standard, whatever that is. And when we agree on that, you know, whether it's we agree to get along or we agree to go our opposite ways, I wanna do so in a compassionate way, and, you know, this is just the end of the road. 1906 is is a, you know, a bitter mark in common of Presbyterians. You know?

Nick: 02:18:32

I'd hate to see something like that happen where it just blows up, you know, at a meeting and everybody goes their way. I I won't call their name, but I I know, I I still have the email that somebody sent and, you know, talked about us having that discussion, and just saying, let's quit discussing it. Don't talk about it. You know? And that's made it worse.

Nick: 02:18:59

It's built up. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's where I'm at. In the country, we say, pooper, get off the pot. And that that's where I am. Let's just decide where we're gonna be and be there.

Nick: 02:19:16

The the longer we prolong whatever is is gonna hurt us. We got bigger problem. I say bigger. They're different problems, but, I mean, we're we're struggling to stay alive. Arkansas Presbyterian, I think we're down to 51 churches, I think.

Nick: 02:19:34

10 years ago, we were 60. I'm sure it's the same way a lot of other places, you know. Some of them need to close. I've I've been an advocate for church merger for years, and I've got a lot of hate over that. Just to go down our our our last, hard topic when we're talking merging with the CPCA, I said from the get go, we're not ready for the discussion, We can't merge with the church across the street.

Nick: 02:20:05

Who's Cumberland? We have 4 CP churches within 10 minutes in my house. You know? Wow. We're not gonna merge.

Nick: 02:20:13

How are we gonna talk about merging with another denomination? You know? And I was not against the merger. I didn't like the plan. I I think I could've sat down and wrote a plan that would've went a whole lot easier.

Nick: 02:20:30

It it's it's it's all about relationships, with people, and I think that's what we missed. We got we got caught up in the weeds of legalities and how things would look, and and just it went south. But we we gotta do something as a denomination or we're in trouble. So, you know

T.J.: 02:20:58

You were telling me before we started recording that, there was a book you wanted to mention.

Nick: 02:21:06

Yeah. Transforming Church in Rule America.

T.J.: 02:21:12

Okay.

Nick: 02:21:13

Shannon O'Dell.

T.J.: 02:21:14

Thank you for reading that for me because I was really squinting. Yeah. I'm I'm an older man. I'm 4 years older than you.

Nick: 02:21:22

So, I went blind the last 2 years. So, when my wife was in treatment, when the elders at our church, they have what they call family week. So we, me and her mom and dad, flew out there for family week and, went through a lot of intense counseling and all that. And so I mentioned earlier the book, the the book was in the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, and so I got it when I got back home and read it. And, it's got a little church in Northwestern Arkansas, little town nobody's ever heard of, close to Harrison.

Nick: 02:22:04

And, this guy came in. It's a Baptist church, about 60 people. He had these big dreams of being big time, you know, big church. Really struggled with God about going to this rural church. And he went and had the same problems we all have, you know, trying to get people to do things different, build on whatnot.

Nick: 02:22:34

Anyhow, they wind up, growing, ran some people off, and began to grow. And they took over another church right down the road from them who who was dying. They just, which Baptist work a little different than we do, but, so they took over the property, all that. The church that was dying just wanted the building to stay and be in use, and that was kind of the only way merged finances and whatnot. Yeah.

Nick: 02:22:56

They used it for a youth facility, the whole the whole church. You know? They began to grow and grow, and long story short, I can't remember when this book was the events actually took place early 2000 maybe. They got on eBay, and they bought a Hummer with a satellite on it. And so they bought a satellite truck for, like, a $100,000.

T.J.: 02:23:23

Okay.

Nick: 02:23:24

And, so they had they started setting up church churches, in these other places that would, basically, like your DIRECTV box. You you buy one of them. He says the money is shooting the satellite up. Okay? Once you shoot the feet up, there's no cost to bring it down.

Nick: 02:23:44

Anybody with the box can bring it down. And they started setting up all these churches all over, and it just took off and grew. And his theory is that with spiritual gifts, only so many people are gifted at preaching, teaching. Some people are gifted pastors at counseling and caring. Like I told you, me and my wife.

Nick: 02:24:12

I mean, she's the care compassionate person. I'm not. I hate to say this, but I'll say it because we're talking. I feel like my gift is behind the pulpit or or preaching. That's my gift.

Nick: 02:24:25

I feel like I'm good at. Mhmm. Not a whole lot else I feel like I'm really good at it. But I and I feel like I am good at that. I'm a good communicator.

Nick: 02:24:34

Mhmm. Basically, because I'm ADD, so I try to preach to myself. If I if I'm simple enough and to the point that someone like me can understand and not fall asleep and stay with it, that's what I try to replicate. So so that's what he said. So so they started setting up all these campuses, and they have a campus pastor who takes care of everything in the campus.

Nick: 02:24:56

He preaches. That's it. And they they just exploded. And, so I was on board of missions, when I read that, and I brought it back to the world. I thought, we need to do this, you know?

Nick: 02:25:09

And I even sent the What do you mean? To my

T.J.: 02:25:12

porta vision. Hold on. Let me let me interrupt you. When you say we need to do this, you're you're taking back the idea, a $100,000 Hummer with a satellite on top of it.

Nick: 02:25:22

Yeah. Yeah. Honeybay. Honeybay. Tell me the denomination had to spend that much money somewhere else and wasted it.

Nick: 02:25:32

Through the years, have we not wasted a 100,000 somewhere?

T.J.: 02:25:36

Probably. Probably. You talking about in just one big fell swoop of, like, one check?

Nick: 02:25:42

Yeah. Oh, just a couple of them probably put together. Oh, man. I'm sure an I'm sure

T.J.: 02:25:49

an outsider looking in could probably answer that a lot quicker.

Nick: 02:25:55

I can name them, but I'm probably not going to. But I know some of them that we've tried that they just didn't work.

T.J.: 02:26:04

Yeah. But you're not you're not afraid of trying. Actually,

Nick: 02:26:09

that's what we

T.J.: 02:26:10

that that's what we've been discussing.

Nick: 02:26:12

Yeah. I'm not afraid. Yeah. I try new stuff all the time. Mhmm.

Nick: 02:26:17

In in business, I try. If it don't work, I do something different. I don't look at it as failure. Mhmm. As in, that's kept me down.

Nick: 02:26:26

Back to my personality, I I'll do anything. I'll try anything. I started working on iPhones. I I'd wanted to do it, and my wife was like, no. Don't do that.

Nick: 02:26:38

Do not do that. And I'm like, I'm not scared. I'll take one apart in a minute. Back then when I first started, you could buy the tools, take the phone apart for $20, you know? Right.

Nick: 02:26:49

And, I just I really wanted to do it. And she was like, don't do that, you know. So, I don't know if it's her phone or somebody in our church. Their phone messed up. And, I was like, look.

Nick: 02:27:03

You ain't got nothing to lose. Let me try to fix it. If I can't, you know, your phone was already broke. And Right. If if I fix it, just pay for the parts.

Nick: 02:27:12

And they're like, okay. So, you know, I bought the parts and, you know, next thing I know, I'm in the phone repair business. That's gonna book you money since then, and the phones. A matter of fact, you know, if you break your phone, you want it tomorrow. Right?

Nick: 02:27:27

You want it fixed now? Mhmm. I found a company I could buy screens, but I had to bulk order them to get a deal on. I had to buy $500 worth of stuff, so I just bought it. For I took the random iPhones because at that point, I think I started with iPhone 5, and there was a 5 s and a c.

Nick: 02:27:46

So I just bought, like, 2, 3 of each one of them. There were different colors. You get white or black, you know. And so I just bought a random amount just, you know, on a gut feeling that somebody's gonna crash their phone, you know. And I could fix it in less than an hour.

Nick: 02:27:59

And so I just started getting the word out. You know? People start bringing their phones. I've invested something I could lose, And and I did. I've got a iPhone 4, and my desk right here is brand new.

Nick: 02:28:12

I never put it on anything, just the screen. You know? But I made more than what it's worth. I've got an iPad screen, glass in here I've never used. It goes to iPad too.

Nick: 02:28:21

If anybody got one need it fixed, I've got it. I'll give you the screen. So in the church, it's the same way. Like, don't be afraid to try some. Mhmm.

Nick: 02:28:31

You know, you're gonna fail. That's that's part of life. Mhmm. You're gonna make mistakes. I've I've failed stuff in business that didn't work.

Nick: 02:28:41

I just you know, we just pawned it and did something different. You can't be scared to try. You just you gotta go out a limb. If you never try something new, you always do what you did. You're you're gonna just be stuck right there.

Nick: 02:28:54

That goes back to me doing all that stuff in the church with the different, you know, sermon stuff. It's just try, you know.

T.J.: 02:29:00

Right.

Nick: 02:29:01

And, yeah, I've made people mad. I made people leave church that didn't like something I did. Mhmm. I've also gained people, who weren't going to church at all. So if I can lose somebody who's I know is saved and is a believer, but I've gained 3 or 4 people who were not saved and got to see them change their life, It's worth it to me.

Nick: 02:29:22

I know that didn't come across good to a lot of people, but, yeah. Yeah. Anyhow, I I I've been on the inside, so I know a few things we've done, just on committees I've served on. So I know we've we've blown that to the past on some stuff. And I would say it, but I don't wanna hurt anybody's feelings.

Nick: 02:29:42

So, I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying we've we've done it. So so I I I emailed somebody. I don't remember, Denominational Board of Missions. I sent an email.

Nick: 02:29:53

I sent a book. Hey, read this book. You know, I was telling everybody, read this book, you know. I was like, if the denomination could do this, we got all these rural churches. We can pick 1 I'm not saying it had to be me.

Nick: 02:30:03

I wouldn't I wouldn't even advocating for me. Mhmm. But there are some really good preaching, teaching pastors. If the denomination could spend this money. Right?

Nick: 02:30:13

Who you might not find a satellite truck on eBay for a $100, but you might. How many churches, rural churches, could you supply good Cumberland preaching to that's not getting anything now? Because hang on. We had another issue. We didn't we talked about the tough issue.

Nick: 02:30:37

What about all these other churches that are filled with Nazarene preachers, baptist preachers, Joe Blow off the street preacher? That over time, we've lost those churches because I don't care who you are. You preach what you believe. If you're a Baptist, you're gonna preach Baptist. If you're Nazarene, you're gonna preach Nazarene.

Nick: 02:30:55

It's gonna come out. So so we've lost churches because we don't have good CP preaching. You could have fed the whole denomination of rural churches. I don't know. I just know Arkansas Presbyterian, and we've got quite a few.

Nick: 02:31:11

You you could have supplied good stuff. Now, unfortunately, that was back in mid 2000. There's no video streaming. People are still against that. Thankfully, we had COVID to get people out of box to finally say, okay, I'll take some video preaching now, you know.

T.J.: 02:31:31

Yeah. Yeah. I was about to say that. Look look how fast the tech has changed, you know, where you had to drop a $100 into a, you know, a moving vehicle, moving satellite Yeah. Type thing.

T.J.: 02:31:42

And now now you just need your phone.

Nick: 02:31:45

Right.

T.J.: 02:31:46

That's it.

Nick: 02:31:46

The day's changed. Yeah. And I still I'll go on record to say, I still think, yeah, we're not it's cheap now. I still think that is the solution to rural church. The the problem is you're gonna need somebody of, maybe you, somebody in your position to go around all over and to convince, you know, old people older people, who are not tech savvy, that we can provide you good preaching every Sunday, good CP preaching, good theology, good teaching, and it's right here.

Nick: 02:32:26

You're just gonna have to watch it on screen. I'll go a step further. You could also do music. I don't know what it sound like. It takes some tweaking, to lead the worship service, you know, via video.

Nick: 02:32:38

I mean, they do it. They do the whole service. You know? So you can do it. It would take some leg work to convince people to do it.

Nick: 02:32:48

The the church, that I go down, I video preach. That started in COVID because we weren't doing anything video. And, we're like anybody else. Our video consisted of we had a camera at the back that went to the fellowship hall. And, you know, when we didn't have church, we went 8 weeks without church.

Nick: 02:33:09

And, so I was like, hey, let's, I'm tech savvy. We'll do this. So, you know, I get a we had a camera at the church already and put up on a tripod, set it up in front of the, front of the church. You know? I hit it.

Nick: 02:33:22

Me and 2 of my kids went up there every Saturday night. I preached to a wall every Saturday night. I went back home, edited to what I you know, however it needed to be, trimmed it up

T.J.: 02:33:33

Mhmm.

Nick: 02:33:33

And, uploaded it to YouTube and send a link out to everybody, because I got people that can't go to YouTube. I mean, you just gotta send them a link every week. You know, here, click this link. And, they said the church, they were like, I, I was their moderator. So they they were like, oh, yeah.

Nick: 02:33:49

We've been looking at you on YouTube. I was like, really? You know? That go they are. I guess, either because one of them was having to fill in every week.

Nick: 02:33:57

You know? Mhmm. And so we bought a camera, put it back to church, you know, and spent a little money and, you know, voila. Now we're every week, had a old lady at our church who, they live about 30 minutes from here. They got to where they couldn't come, and she text I didn't know she text.

Nick: 02:34:14

She text me out of the blue one day. She's like, I really enjoy these messages. You know? They hadn't been at church in a year. You know?

Nick: 02:34:20

Wow. And now she takes me every week when she gets to the sermon. She's like, oh, great message. You know? She's she's probably 80.

Nick: 02:34:29

You know? Yeah, man. Let's open the door. But for the record, since, oh, no. A 10.

Nick: 02:34:41

It's gonna be 2010, probably. I've I've been telling people about this book, and that's what they do. Because they their purpose is to go to rural community. And they I don't know how many churches they got now. I can give him a shout out if you don't mind.

Nick: 02:34:55

But it's brand new church. Anyhow, Shannon O'Dell, made it in person at c three conference. He's the one who told me, if you can get out away from God, run. But if God catches you this day. And, yeah, it's a great book.

Nick: 02:35:12

Buy it and read it, man. It's, it's it's antique now. Nobody has a satellite truck. You know? Yeah.

Nick: 02:35:17

But, we don't need it. I guess they sold it on eBay. I'm not sure what they did. But, but they plan churches all over Arkansas. They had some in Texas, when the book is written.

Nick: 02:35:27

They reach people, and that's what you need. You need you need good solid teaching, preaching. For me personally, if I'm gone and I don't miss hardly ever, it's hard to find somebody to fill the pulpit. I've had somebody to fill for me before, and my kid like, if I was just gone, like, when I was on CMT and I'd have to miss, I would just try to find random people around that could fill in, and my kids would be like, do not ask that person back. You know?

Nick: 02:35:53

And they're my sounding board, you know. And, I had a guy fill in for me, here, maybe a year before last. And, me and my wife went somewhere for anniversary. And so we're you know, I have people who depend on us filming for for their service, you know, like the other church. And so I tell my son, and my oldest son, my daughter, they they have lead worship.

Nick: 02:36:20

And so I said, tell the guy, stay we don't have the we don't have a remote. I mean, you know, where you can sit there and move it. It will move, but we don't have anybody monitoring. It's just set up for the center. So I said, tell the guy, stay between the candles.

Nick: 02:36:37

Don't get outside the candles or you're off camera. You know? I said, stay in the mic. Don't pull the mic away because if you pull the mic away, they can't hear you Mhmm. On YouTube.

Nick: 02:36:45

You know? And, it's my son. He's 16. He goes up and tells this adult adult man how to do and all this stuff. And I don't think he liked it very much.

Nick: 02:36:54

And, you know, he made several comments during the summer because I think he was a pacer and, about how he was told to stay between candles, you know. And I was like, just go with the instructions. You don't have to tell everything. Just Yeah. You know.

T.J.: 02:37:06

Yeah. Just

Nick: 02:37:07

I'm dependent on you for this video, you know? They're depending on so I mean, I had to clip a bunch of him out. Just time's sake. But, so but now, most time I leave, I'll go to church by myself, and I'll just preach the wall, upload it, and they can watch me when I'm gone. You know?

Nick: 02:37:27

How you don't wanna get a vacation and blah blah blah. I mean, it is what it is. You know?

T.J.: 02:37:31

Right.

Nick: 02:37:33

So I I love the technology. It's it's good. And, you really love somebody around there who wants to push that across the denomination. I'm telling you, it's it's the way to go. Well, you you're not the

T.J.: 02:37:48

you're not the only one. There are other churches that are doing the same thing. And then you gotta think about what which 1 or 2 or 3 voices do you really want to represent and can represent the entire denomination in terms of preaching? That's

Nick: 02:38:09

the last one he said is the one that was we gotta focus on, can. Yeah. Let's say can. Because not all CP ministers or CP theology for 1, and not all CP ministers are very good preachers too. And it's not a diss on everybody.

Nick: 02:38:34

It's just not it's not everybody's thing. Some some people are great, you know, with the pastoral care part.

T.J.: 02:38:45

The gifts and skills are different. And I think that's what helps make the church go and what makes the community of faith what it is.

Nick: 02:38:53

Yeah. We were just stuck because the way we're set there are a few churches that have multiple, pastors on staff. But for the most part, we're a rural church and we you're there, you're everybody. I mean, you're you're pastor, you're, you know, the preacher, the teacher, all the stuff.

T.J.: 02:39:12

The plumber, the electrician.

Nick: 02:39:13

Yeah. Cut the grass. Mhmm. Yeah. Done all that.

Nick: 02:39:18

Yeah. I I've done a lot through the years. I mean, I've installed security systems. I mean, you name it. I've I've done it, in a church.

Nick: 02:39:29

Because when you're full time in a at a small church, that's that's what you do. I mean, you're most small, small church pastors are very gifted, skill wise. If you're not, you're not gonna make it very long.

T.J.: 02:39:40

Right. Yeah.

Nick: 02:39:41

If you follow somebody who was, you know, they're like, well, the last preacher fixed the sink, you know, unclog the toilet. Did He get hung in that.

T.J.: 02:39:50

But Yeah. Did the shopping was the was the janitor. Yep. Yeah.

Nick: 02:39:55

But I do think that's the key. And, yeah, you're right. I mean, choosing the right person. And maybe it's by a presbytery basis. You know, maybe our presbytery does it.

Nick: 02:40:02

But back then when I first started, screaming that, we needed whole denomination money for that. Now we don't. I mean, each presbytery can fund that on their own. I mean, I think the camera we got in the back of our church is like maybe a grand. It's just a NDI camera.

Nick: 02:40:24

And, you know, and what's the Internet? You know, depending on where you're at, Internet is pretty cheap now. Right. I just bought a new TV the other day. It's only the 2nd TV I've ever bought in my life.

Nick: 02:40:38

I always had somebody give me a gift card for pastor appreciation for something or whatever.

T.J.: 02:40:42

Mhmm.

Nick: 02:40:43

And, my my little kids wanted a a TV in their room, but theirs quit. And so, so I'm gonna buy a new TV. Well, actually, my wife because I don't really watch it, but, for our bedroom because we can't see. We're old, man. We can't I have to use the, the words at the bottom now, and I can't read them, you know?

Nick: 02:41:03

So, I I bought a 65 inch TV at Walmart for $300, and I'm like, this is nuts. I didn't realize there was some cheap mail, you know. Yeah. You can do that in any congregation, you know. And just put it up there.

Nick: 02:41:15

I mean, maybe they sit closer or whatever. I don't know. Can you put close caption on your sermon? Anyhow. I don't know.

T.J.: 02:41:23

You find out, get back to me. Let me know on that.

Nick: 02:41:25

That that might be good too. So so yeah, man. It's easy. But, yeah, that was, that's that's one of the most memorable books that I've read. Uh-huh.

Nick: 02:41:33

And that because a lot of it is just reaching outside the box, trying to reach communities, trying to reach churches.

T.J.: 02:41:39

Isn't that funny? We spent, gosh, probably 15, 20 minutes

Nick: 02:41:44

Yeah.

T.J.: 02:41:44

Just on the book review. The book recommendation and what it meant to you. And we just. It's what I enjoy about conversations, and I I've enjoyed this one with you today.

Nick: 02:41:58

It's it's, yes, a lot that goes into, I guess, what we do. And even like I said, that that was just somebody saw the book and recommended to me, but it chain it impacted me just because of of that, you know. And then and then meeting him and talking to him impacted me more because, I guess I'll let this out. Somewhere right after I talked to him, I did quit. I quit altogether, for about 4 months.

Nick: 02:42:30

And

T.J.: 02:42:32

Quit church. Yeah. Quit ministry.

Nick: 02:42:34

Quit preaching. Yeah. Oh. I quit I quit and bought a truck, and, I kinda thought I'd just go back by vocational house. We're going through some stuff at church, and, it was it was rough.

Nick: 02:42:53

I had upset some people, who were used to getting their way with everything, and they were they were bullies, church bullies. And, I just I stood up. I don't I just don't play that game. And, they they set out to make my life miserable. And, I mean, one of the one of them's husband was I mean, he would just text me in the middle of the night, you know, tell me get up.

Nick: 02:43:20

I mean, just kinda confront me, you know, call me names and, all kind of stuff. You know, making up lies, saying I was having a fair with my wife, you know, which man, that it hurt. It hurt my life. It hurt me. And I don't know why it's the go to when you're ready to get rid of a preacher, but it it it was just it was tough.

Nick: 02:43:46

Wound up having that, have a woman, or our whole family, actually, kicked out of church. And, which is funny. We had done a study on the confession of the faith, and I almost didn't do the, rules of discipline. And I was like, well, we'll just go through this. Nobody does this anymore.

Nick: 02:44:04

We'll just do it anyhow. That's it's short. You know? We went through the rules of discipline, and we just finished that. And so I brought it to the elders.

Nick: 02:44:11

I was like, yeah. Hey. It's right here. And, we did. We suspended their membership and, asked them not to come back.

Nick: 02:44:18

I would try to tell you we're in a small church, small community, and, man, it gets over town quick. I had people running up to me in town, you know. Did y'all really kick somebody out of the church? You know? Yeah.

Nick: 02:44:29

We did. You can't do that. I was like, actually, yeah. You can. And, I even asked, like, blast me on Facebook on, one of the church pages, you know, about me doing that.

Nick: 02:44:42

And they had contacted the state department of the Presbyterian, you know, and I got contacted. Like, y'all didn't do this right, you know. And I was like, yeah. We did. I did it by the book.

Nick: 02:44:53

I mean, because that's why I'm by the book.

T.J.: 02:44:55

I remember that. I forgot all about that, Nate. Yeah. Because you and I had talked kinda Yeah. Early on.

T.J.: 02:45:01

That was not a fun time for you. I I remember was

Nick: 02:45:04

always Yeah. That woman, she was mean. She was, I'm not gonna call her no names, but I mean, she was mean. That's the hardest thing I've ever had to do in ministry, was ask somebody not to come back. And I've I went through some stuff.

Nick: 02:45:21

I mean, the a lot of them, I probably wouldn't bring up, here. But, I've been through some hard stuff in ministry, and that was the hardest. But, we got that settled, man, and I just need a break. So I did. I I I did I went back to what I knew.

Nick: 02:45:43

I knew trucking, and I bought a truck, and, we moved back home. And I thought, you know, I'll just throw my POF out there and, see if I can find anybody, you know, within driving distance in Arkansas to go to. And man, nothing. Nobody called. And when you talk about hurt your ego, no way I'll even give you an interview.

Nick: 02:46:08

And I know churches all around us that didn't have a pastor. Oh, no. And, like, nobody would even talk to us.

T.J.: 02:46:13

Oh, no.

Nick: 02:46:16

It was it was, it was depressing. It was very depressing. And I was like, maybe who's it? You know? And so we would visit around and go to some churches and you know, being a pastor, you're the, or I am.

Nick: 02:46:33

You kinda walk in, you shake hands, visit with everybody before church starts, you know, and Mhmm. I would just go sit down, you know, and feel weird. Like, I'm not supposed to be in a pew. I haven't sat by my wife in years. You know?

Nick: 02:46:45

And we did that, and, now I'm doing, Lord, eat me alive. And so, that was, like, in January. By March, I was like, okay. Make a deal. So, lord, you help me sell this truck I just bought, and, I'll throw my name back out there.

Nick: 02:47:08

I'll go anywhere you open the door. And my my best friend, where my mom works, he said, hey. I'll buy it in the end of the truck. I'll buy it. And the church I'd left, I I called them.

Nick: 02:47:23

I was like, hey. Just letting y'all know. I said I'm I'm I'm not gonna quit. I'm getting back in it. I'm gonna put my name out.

Nick: 02:47:33

If y'all are interested, we can interview again.

T.J.: 02:47:38

The church you just left.

Nick: 02:47:39

The church I just left. I said, you know, if you're not, no hard feelings, you know, but I just I felt like I left in a rough time, and so, you know, if y'all have me back, I'll come back. So we went out there and interviewed again, and there's some agreement on some things being different. And, we were living in, the manse at that time. It was, like, 1100 square feet.

Nick: 02:48:06

There was, we had 5 kids at that point. So 7 of us. We were stacked on top of each other. And, we said we got more room. I mean, we just you know?

Nick: 02:48:20

And our kids were little then, but it was like we we run out of room. And so they agreed to build on to the mats and give us a little bit of a raise, because we were struggling. We had we had sold some stuff where we moved, you know, and had a little savings put back, and it it dwindled to nothing. And, that's kinda when I started working some of those part time jobs in between, you know, just trying to make it. And so some things changed, so we wound up going back.

Nick: 02:48:52

And so I never officially I pressed straight, never met to dissolve my letter. So, it's like nothing ever happened really, but, I was gone from January to May. We went back mother's day, and I stayed 2 more years. Mhmm. And finished a lot of things, did some problems that were around there.

Nick: 02:49:13

I got to see a lot of things close that I should've got done before I left. So it's kinda weird time, but I knew then, this is what I was called to do. So I'm like, alright, lord. I'm gonna I'm gonna put all this work in the woods and stuff in the back, and, I'm yours here on out. And so we sold our we had left our house here.

Nick: 02:49:34

We had it rented out, and we sold it, everything we had and moved. And I didn't get any part time jobs. I just, other than working on cell phones. We just did that, yeah, for 2 years, and, I really felt peace about it. Had some job opportunities in between there.

Nick: 02:49:54

People would call. Nope. I am not going nowhere. Not going nowhere. You know?

Nick: 02:49:59

And, I don't know. Everything was peaceful then, and it just felt complete. And that's when the church I'm at now called and said I said, we want somebody part time. I was like, no. I'm I'm here.

Nick: 02:50:11

You know? Right. And it's like God finally just said, okay. The door is shut here. It's it's time to go back home.

Nick: 02:50:19

And so we did. And, guess, I had that feeling like there's so many small churches. I can't I can't find anybody. Nobody wants to move there. And so I was like, you know, I'm hometown boy.

Nick: 02:50:34

I found a job. And so I did. I came back and that's when I started working, moving oversized. I've kinda been at peace being by vocational since then. There's times I miss being in full time ministry.

Nick: 02:50:48

And I told the elders when I came here. I was like, you know, visiting and all that stuff, like, I can't do it. I just can't. I can I can preach for you? I can teach.

Nick: 02:50:58

I can do Sunday morning, Sunday night. I'll be involved Wednesday with youth and stuff, but I can't make commitments. And that was kinda deal when I came here. I said, you know, I can't overwork myself. I've got a family, you know, But I can provide solid preaching, teaching, leadership.

Nick: 02:51:19

The rest of it, y'all gonna have to provide. And they were in agreement with that, and so, we came. That's kinda that's kinda what I do now. You know? I teach and preach, and, somebody else kinda handles the rest of the stuff.

Nick: 02:51:33

You know, my wife included. I mean, she I couldn't make it without her. She she's so good to check on people and, constant contact with people. She has that sense about her that she can tell when stuff's going on, you know, that I'm probably bogged down with work and all that, but, you know, I don't. But it works out good.

Nick: 02:51:56

You know, I got to watch my kids grow up, see my kids involved in, leading worship. They started that somewhere around when we came back from COVID. We had lost some people, and so I I was leading the music then. I'm not really a music leader, but, I was doing it. I really wanna start playing my guitar.

Nick: 02:52:21

And so, so I started playing, and it was like, I mean, it's tough playing and singing both. So I got 2 of them involved, and, they helped they helped the leading part, and I kinda sing along and play. Yeah. My son, he started playing the 1st of this year or some. And, so, you know, we're in a small church, and we're just, I guess, holding our own and trying to do whatever we can, begin to watch them I miss

T.J.: 02:52:52

Is it fulfilling?

Nick: 02:52:54

Yeah. It is. Mhmm. Alright. We have bible study on Sunday night, and it's it's slim.

Nick: 02:53:00

I mean, I I was gonna give it up for a while, and then one of our elders, he's just he's like, man, he said, you're you're really good at this. You're really good at at teaching, you know, which my teaching is totally different than the the preaching side. And my wife always tells me, she's that's your strongest point, which was that I was scared of the most when I started. You know? I enjoy it, man.

Nick: 02:53:24

My kids take notes.

T.J.: 02:53:25

This is the kid who went to school and didn't like it

Nick: 02:53:28

and Yeah.

T.J.: 02:53:28

Yeah. Teaching.

Nick: 02:53:29

My kids, are probably into it more than anything. My my daughter, she's, she just turned 19. Man, she takes notes backwards, sideways in her bible. I mean, she's filled it up with stuff, and I mean, she's got a notebook out. And, they're I said that they're more involved than anybody else as far as the discussion part.

Nick: 02:53:50

Because that's my idea. Bible study is not a lecture. It's it's a discussion. Our first church, we did it on Wednesday, and we did a meal. So people would we had all the tables and fellowship all in a circle, and I would I would eat mine real fast.

Nick: 02:54:04

And, while they're still eating, you know, I would start and just let people discuss stuff because that helps me figure out where you're at, what you know. It's not about answering questions like you did in school. It's it's just do you get this? You know, where where do you wanna discuss more? And so I just pick a book of the bible.

Nick: 02:54:21

We just go line by line. I used to do a chapter a night, and I comment on it a little bit, and I try to get them to get into it. You know? And who knows? A discussion can go way out there.

Nick: 02:54:34

Sometimes it's kinda blank. Nobody says anything, but but it's good. And, yeah, just watching my kids, man, learn. They're so much better than I was at that age. And go back to the question you asked about the family.

Nick: 02:54:51

Man, my family now is 10 times more discussing of the bible at the house. You know? I mean, we'll sit around the table and get deep into something theological or something, and I'll get all my kids. I hadn't told you all that 10 times, you know, you know, and try to get them to learn, you know. Yeah.

Nick: 02:55:08

I wanna be able to hold their own, you know, theologically.

T.J.: 02:55:13

Mhmm.

Nick: 02:55:15

It's it's fun, you know, just seeing them progress in their understanding.

T.J.: 02:55:20

Yeah. And it and it's in a safe environment, you know. It's it's the family to be able to have those. So the dialogue does not mean that the family is crumbling when there's disagreements.

Nick: 02:55:33

Right. Right.

T.J.: 02:55:34

You know, the relationship is maintained, maybe even deepened.

Nick: 02:55:40

Yeah. We, I remember back in pause, we were talking about Paul. And, some of the way they discuss scripture. Mhmm. And it was almost like a debate in the way that they would learn and, you know, who could hold their own the most.

Nick: 02:55:56

You see that in Paul's life, you know, when he goes out ministering. You know, I'm just thinking about Mars Hill, you know, where he goes up and jumps right in the middle of people and and, that's kinda how I grew up, you know, you you kinda you get in there and like, I was the quiet kid just listening to my parents, my brother talking, you know. And I always felt like my brother has, like, this photographic memory. He can remember all this stuff, and I was struggling to remember stuff. And, like, as the years go by, the more I put in, more I go over these things, like, it sticks in, you know, and so that's why I've done my kids.

Nick: 02:56:29

I just over and over and over. And so growing up, it's the same way I've done my family. Like, we interrupt people. I mean, if you wanna talk, you gotta butt in and and go with it, you know. Mhmm.

Nick: 02:56:41

I mean, you know, my brother, he can talk for for hours, you know. And so if I wanna get in, I just gotta I gotta butt in, you know. And so I taught my kids to do that, and my wife's telling us, it's not like that. She'll be quiet until we get through. And she's like, y'all don't let me talk.

Nick: 02:56:53

And I'm, no. You you just gotta butt in. Like, that's that's how we roll. You know? And it's it's kind of like a a in your face, but not like a not like a in a rude way.

Nick: 02:57:05

It's just we're aggressive about it, you know, and, and I enjoy it. I love talking with Baptist and Methodist and whoever. I've studied their their beliefs, and so I like getting in with them too. You know? And I do.

Nick: 02:57:20

I hurt people's feelings sometimes because I'm I'm probably too much. But but I like it. I it's fun for me. It's it's debate. You know?

T.J.: 02:57:30

I think this is a good place to stop, Nick. We started with where you are currently, you know, and and some of the jobs you had. And you've brought us all the way around to back to the present tense. I think I think it's a good place to stop. We've been talking for a little while.

Nick: 02:57:49

Yeah. It's fine, man. I I love why. I love CP Church. I say that.

Nick: 02:57:58

I I don't know the future of the church.

T.J.: 02:58:05

Who does?

Nick: 02:58:06

But, I know this, man, because we visit around. I don't know where else I would be, you know. Theologically, I don't know where I would fit. And and we visit some Baptist churches while I was out and, like, I think Southern Baptist are close to us theologically. But like some of those stuff, I just I can't I can't get behind, you know.

Nick: 02:58:29

So this I'm hardcore, you know. Mhmm. Something happens to our church, you know. I'm an orphan. And so I just I guess back to the moderator thing, you know, I just I hope I would add something to encourage the church to keep moving.

Nick: 02:58:46

Go back to the spirit of 18 10 to to push out, to go to the frontiers to where nobody's at. You know? Let's get out of the church and get out to where people are. With me, it's been by vocational. Find find where people are, you know?

Nick: 02:59:01

They're not suspecting of a pastor when you show up at overalls. So,

T.J.: 02:59:07

Well, Nick, thank you. Thank you for sharing your faith and thank you for just bringing yourself to the table. And maybe if anything, we've modeled what a faith conversation can look like. And it isn't it isn't in a parameter. Is it 20 minutes to have good conversation?

T.J.: 02:59:26

It can take a while and multiple times.

Nick: 02:59:29

Oh, yeah. No doubt. It's good. I appreciate you asking me to be on.

T.J.: 02:59:34

Thank you for listening to this faith journey on Cumberland Road. In closing, I leave you with some words of reverend Finas Ewing, one of the framers of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. "Every minister of the gospel whom God approves as such is the subject of a distinct, particular, and special internal call to responsible work." Thanks for listening.