Pat Pickett - We Do Ministry Wherever We Are (Part 1)
Exploring faith journeys and sharing inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. You are listening to the Cumberland Road. I am your host, TJ Malinoski. Today's guest takes me along a captivating faith journey that includes an escape from a children's home when she was 12 years old, to a calling and to a convent in her early twenties, and later raising 6 children and then becoming a chaplain for residents in a state institution for individuals with intellectual disabilities, and now leading an eclectic worshiping community in the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination. Reverend Doctor Pat Pickett is a minister, an artist, and a professor living in Tennessee. Our exchange for this podcast is halved into 2 episodes. So now, my friends, enjoy part 1 of my conversation with Pat Pickett.
T.J.:Hello, Pat Pickett, and welcome to the Cumberland Road podcast.
Pat:Hi, TJ. How are you? There's a lot to there's a lot to think about, so I guess I'll just start. I know we're supposed to talk about ministry, and I'm not real sure what ministry is because I think that if you're called to ministry, you do ministry wherever you are. I mean, you don't say this is ministry.
Pat:I'm gonna do this. It's just who you are. And, I I just wanna tell you one story that I don't remember at all. But to begin with, my dad was Presbyterian and my mother was Catholic. And, I learned very early on to be ecumenical even though I didn't know what that was.
Pat:In the time that I grew up, Protestants didn't go into Catholic churches and Catholics didn't go into Protestant churches, but I went to both. And my dad, for whatever reason, was best friends with the Monsignor who was pastor of the Catholic church. And they used to go out and have beers together as I was told. And the one story I wanna relate is, I was 3 or 4, somewhere in there. And it was Christmas and I, it was the first time they ever took me to the see the the Christmas nativity scene at church.
Pat:And because I talked too much, and so they never wanted me to come to church with them on Sunday. I always stayed at home, but I I I did go then. And, it the church, and I don't remember it at all. But I was told that it was one of those churches that had all the life size statues in the crib. And, typically, when my dad would come to the Catholic church, he and Monseigneur would stand in the back and they would stand there and talk and tell jokes.
Pat:And my mother get very nervous because you're not supposed to talk in church. And she she anyway, I slipped away from them. And, I was still hanging on to my blankie. I had this blankie that I carried everywhere, and they kept cutting it smaller and smaller. Anyhow, I wandered up to this place where there's this baby in straw, and I thought, oh, I I don't remember this at all, really, but I this is what I was told.
Pat:Anyway, I had to climb over a communion rail or get around it somehow because I gave the baby my blanket because I just didn't like that baby laying there like that. And my mother, when she found me, I guess, was horrified. My dad thought it was funny. And then the the pastor who was a monsignor brought it up in the sermon. And, so from then on, it was sort of like, oh, she's gonna have something to do with the church.
Pat:And my mother said, no. My dad said, we don't know. And that's what I grew up with. So, yeah, I guess I just I slipped away from authority right from the beginning. Right?
T.J.:And you've carried that through into your adult life as well. Gotcha. Right? Yeah. Just the times I've I've bumped into you and worked worked alongside of you.
T.J.:What do you think was going through the 3, 4 year old Pat's mind?
Pat:Well, I was an only child at that point, and I wanted a a baby sister more than anything. And I kept, you know, my dolls and kept pretending. And and here was this. I didn't really know about God yet. I I just don't remember that.
Pat:But but I know one thing that I I one thing I do remember, and it was after that when daddy took me to Brookfield's we were living in Chicago. It was after World War 2. And we went to Brookfield Zoo. And I had never if I'd been there before, I didn't remember it. But that day, I remember I remember it right now.
Pat:I remember walking through and seeing, oh my goodness, all these animals that I'd seen in books. My dad read to me whenever he was home. And these animals were bigger than I ever dreamed, and they were just incredible. I loved every animal and I, we walked forever, but I didn't want to go home. I wanted to see more animals.
Pat:And that night, when we got home, after dinner, daddy, sat me on his lap, and he told me the story of Noah's Ark. And that I can remember feeling who is this person that could do that? And I I remember just being it was better than any fairy tale. I mean, I I didn't call it a fairy tale. I don't I don't think I called fairy tales fairy tales, but I loved that story that somebody could save all those animals.
Pat:It never occurred to me that there were more than 2 by 2 by 2. What was so wonderful, and this is why I know I believe remember it. The next morning, daddy had already gone to work, and their mom said that daddy left something for me, and I couldn't read. So I know it was before kindergarten. And, there was this roll of paper.
Pat:And there was a note on it. And mom read it, and she said it's the note said something like, remember the animals that we saw yesterday. I want you to paint as many as you can remember. Just put them 2 by 2. And there was a brand new box of paints.
Pat:I love paints way back then. And so I started, and I and I worked on that forever. Well, daddy came home from work. Well, I almost got finished, and daddy came home from work, and we unrolled the rest of the this was a long roll of paper. And there at the end, my dad had drawn and painted the ark.
Pat:Wow. Yeah. And I had that. I lost it in one of the moves, but I had was able to give it to his mother or show her after my twins were born. And, she just she didn't say a word.
Pat:She just smiled, and she said, yeah. That's Otis. So that's that's the one that's when I I think I knew, oh, there is something out there, God. That's that was that's my first recollection of God.
T.J.:In your first recollection of God is also your love for art because you're quite the artist, Pat. Would you say that is the genesis of your your love for art, your love for crafts, your love for creating?
Pat:Oh, yeah. That's true. And because right after that, I I wanted to know more about this person or whatever that saved those animals. That made me my love for animals too. I mean, I can't let it.
Pat:Why do you think I have all these feral cats? Gee whiz. I can't I can't let those feral cats go by. I have to feed them.
T.J.:Pat, are you considered the cat lady in your area?
Pat:I hope not because I'd rather be a dog lady. People don't write into TJ and say the cat people don't don't don't write to TJ. I take care of cats, but I'm a dog person, really. When when my dad told me the creation story, that was way, way too much. I couldn't believe that.
Pat:I was just like, wow. But I did catch him on one thing, And that has followed me into graduate school. Because this is what I said to daddy. I don't get it. Why couldn't Adam and Eve just say they were sorry and let that would be over.
Pat:And then he just laughed. I said, Well, I have to say I'm sorry. And it works. Why didn't it work for them? Why couldn't they just say they were sorry?
Pat:And, that has been the big that is the real beginning, I think. Because that question never was answered. I had to stand in the corner because I wouldn't be quiet in 1st grade when we had to we were having catechism or bible study, whatever it was. And I I thought, well, that doesn't make sense to me. Why couldn't they just say they were sorry?
Pat:What was so what was so bad about eating an apple? Of course, I know there's no apple, but, you know, a kid, that was my thinking. And I had done worse by then. I know when I was mad at my mother, I broke her pearls. So, you know, there you go.
T.J.:Your inquisitive nature of asking questions of the faith really go way back to your early childhood?
Pat:Oh, yes. And and I tried it tried that question out on different teachers. And my dad died, tragically. He was killed by a drunk driver, and that shattered our family because all of us were put in an orphanage. My mother couldn't cope, and so we all ended up in an orphanage.
T.J.:Now there was you and how many siblings did you have?
Pat:Yeah. I had 3 others. There were there was my brother Bob and Roger, and Mary Jane. And my brother, Bob, died a couple of years ago as a result of, agent orange from Vietnam. So but my yeah.
Pat:I have a brother and a sister living.
T.J.:So when when you were living in the children's home, were all of you in the same home, or did they separate you?
Pat:Well, we were together for a while until I tried to run away with them. And I did. I ran away.
T.J.:Yeah. Tell that story. Share that
Pat:story, please. I was fed up with this place where it was just awful. Now that's from a child's point of view. So, again, don't write and say orphanages are wonderful. Well, they're not.
Pat:But I just I planned this thing. And,
T.J.:About how old were you?
Pat:I was 12. My sister was 2. And my brothers were, let's see, 2424 and 6. Okay? Alright.
Pat:Or wait a minute. 1 was 8. Well, I told them we were gonna go on this trip. I didn't tell Mary. She's too little.
Pat:I just picked her up at night. I there was a a fire escape down the side of the building. And, I waited till the nuns were asleep and, I got him and we went down the fire escape. Now I know.
T.J.:Now let me let me interrupt you so that I can catch up. So 12 year old Pat has plans to escape with her siblings, and you use the fire escape. You you've planned you've planned this out. So you've waited till night. People are asleep.
T.J.:You've gathered up your brothers and your sisters. You go down the fire escape. Where is 12 year old Pat taking her family?
Pat:To the woods. Okay. I figured that my mother was on the other side of the woods. She couldn't be that far away. And, it I I was kinda scared because, I mean, it was dark, but I had I had tied some stuff on trees ahead of time just to get me away from there.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Pat:And, yeah, I was very calculating in this whole thing. We didn't really get too far before sunup. When it was sunup, I said, we gotta move. Because I didn't tell them why they were gonna miss. I said, we're going on a a scavenger hunt or something.
Pat:I don't remember what I said to him, but I I made it sound like it was a a game.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Pat:Well, it was fun for a few hours, but I didn't bring enough food, and I didn't bring any diapers at all. So we were in trouble already the 1st day. And, very biblically, the sheriff didn't find us for 3 days.
T.J.:Oh my.
Pat:Yeah. Oh my goodness. When they found us, there was a place in Minneapolis called the Good Shepherd's Home, and that was sort of like juvie for girls, except it was in a convent with a high wall. And they they threatened that was where I was gonna go next if I didn't shave up. Well, they separated us then, obviously, and, I wasn't with them anymore, but I I was there one more year because my 8th grade teacher saw something in me.
Pat:And she said, I'm gonna help you get out of there. Oh, a nun's gonna help you get out of there? Fantastic. So and it wasn't an it wasn't a sure thing, but this is what happened was, she was my 8th grade teacher, and I we went to school in town on a big orange bus that said St. Cloud Orphanage.
Pat:And sister Beth said, if you come and study with me every Sunday and learn the answers to these questions, I think you have a good chance of winning the yearly catechetical contest, which you had to win in your school, first of all, which was a no brainer. I was gonna win there. But then I had to win the diocese and then the state. Those were iffy. And, anyway, I went, I walked.
Pat:I I don't know how far it was to the con it was it was a way, but I walked every Sunday. And then it came time for the contest, and I won. And I got out of there,
T.J.:and
Pat:I had to leave my brothers and sisters behind, but I knew I couldn't do anything more for them. And I thought I'm gonna get out of here and I'm gonna go to high school, get and come back and get them. That was my plan. But, anyway, I I I won a scholarship and that's and I got to go. I could pick any high school I wanted to.
Pat:And I for sure wasn't gonna go to anything connected with the orphanage. So I went to a boarding school. And that's how I got yeah.
T.J.:Yeah. What was that like?
Pat:Well, I didn't really realize what I was getting myself into. But that was the beginning of another journey because, the whole idea of that school, it was a high schooler. Right? But it was they expected you to become a nun at the end of it.
T.J.:Now did you know that going into it?
Pat:I wasn't real sure. I because there were lace there were day hops. You know? I I I it didn't really matter. I I wasn't thinking anyway.
Pat:I I I didn't think about stuff like that. I just wanted out of that orphanage. Mhmm. And so getting out of there was primary. I didn't really care.
Pat:It was sort of when I got there, I thought, oh, this is different. This is really different. But I loved it. It was, people cared. They're not this was run by nuns.
Pat:The orphanage is run by nuns too, but I found out later they, it wasn't their fault. They the the one different there there are different orders in the church, and the one in the orphanage was made up of sisters who basically had high school. They didn't have any kind of training to take care of kids who were troubled or really orphaned or anything like that. So they they were like farm girls taking care of young kids, basically. But when I got to this other place, oh my god, all of a sudden, it was like they cared, and I just ate it up.
Pat:It was school was, college prep. I was taking languages. I was taking theology. And, I took along my question about Adam and Eve. And that was where I got in trouble again.
Pat:Because I said, this time, you know, I don't believe that story is is right. I think somebody got it wrong or this God isn't the kind of God I want. And, of course, my teacher's standing there watching, looking at me. And I said, okay. If that is so bad, when's God gonna tell me he's sorry for taking my dad?
Pat:She stood there, and that was everybody kind of you know, how you sit up straight and you look down. You don't want anybody to call on you.
T.J.:Right.
Pat:It was silence, and I didn't get an answer. So, anyway, I thought, well, all these religious people and nobody can tell me about this. And that's the only question I really wanna know. How come Adam and Eve didn't say they were sorry? Why do we have to have all this other stuff happening?
Pat:Why did Jesus have to get nailed to the cross and all that? Because they did one bad thing, and that's where I was. And but then, you know, instead of I didn't follow the rules. I instead of going into the convent, I I finished high school in 3 years. So I left before I had to become a nun, and I was gonna go to Broadway and dance.
Pat:That was my deal. That was my where I was gonna head.
T.J.:Well, before before we get into your dreams of Broadway, let's let's let's pause for a moment and let me ask you a couple questions. 1, let's talk about your your faith in terms of is it deepening in in your teen years because you have this expectation that at the end of your schooling, you're gonna become a a nun.
Pat:Yeah. Well, yeah. But they those nuns went to school after there were nuns. So I was you know, it was like yeah. Okay.
Pat:Very different.
T.J.:And then part 2 of this question is how, with that expectation, how easy was it to take the path that you took with these expectations that you're part of this boarding school and receiving this education? The next natural step is to become a nun.
Pat:Yeah. Well, in the meantime, it during summers, I would stay with well, not always, but I did stay with some girlfriends and I was dating and I thought, you know, I was all mixed up. I really was. But here was my my fam I considered St. Ben's my family, the nuns there.
Pat:And of course they knew my story and how I got there. And, I had there was one sister in particular who saw an artistic side of me and she became my mentor. And later on, she actually became grandmother to my kids. I mean, she was that close. But at one time I said to her, well, you know, you don't really know how to draw.
Pat:Can you, man? I was yeah.
T.J.:Good grief.
Pat:Right. Well, I was I was into realism realistic drawing at the time, and I could draw almost anything that I saw. And here she was doing abstract stuff, and I said, you know, my sister can do as good as that. Anyway, she's so I guess she didn't tell me that right away. But eventually she told me she's like, I like that spirit.
Pat:But I did tell her I don't wanna draw like that. It doesn't I said, can you draw like I can? I was 16 when I said that to her. You know? And she I mean, I could have gotten thrown out really when I think about it.
Pat:But she allowed me to be who I am, and and I guess that's why I love them so much because I could be me, and I couldn't at the orphanage. I I wasn't able to grow up there. I grew up in that high school.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Pat:But then, you know, I start thinking other things, and I I was finished with high school, basically. And I was into I had just I had cons my dad started me out in dance. And when I got, of course, in the orphanage, there was none. But when I got to high school, our gym teacher had been a ballet dancer. And she couldn't anymore because she had broken back, but I learned more from her.
Pat:And I was ready to go on. I thought I was good. I really wasn't. But, you know, I thought I can do it. Well, I was gone a year and I really was homesick for St.
Pat:Ben's. And I went up there one Saturday and asked them if I could come back. You know, what did they say? Well, yeah, we want you back. Sure.
Pat:So my freshman year in college, I got ready to go into the contract. And, and I did, I entered the convent and I tell you, I never regret it. It was some of the most, it was hard. It was difficult because after that, I started thinking, well, all this time, I want a family. It's a I'm in a really dumb place if I want a family.
Pat:I can't have kids here.
T.J.:Right.
Pat:I mean, you know well, lucky for me, they and and they do this for all. They they do this everywhere. Whenever you want to be a priest or a nun, whatever, you've got about 4 or 5 years to make that decision. You live the life, but you don't take final vows or anything right away. They don't it's not wise.
Pat:But before it was time for me to take final vows, the most difficult decision was to leave, and I did because I wanted a family.
T.J.:So you're Europe to the place to give your final vows. Yeah. You you've completed all the Yep. Excuse just my lack of, knowledge, so I may be using the wrong term. You've checked all the boxes.
T.J.:You
Pat:Yes.
T.J.:Completed all the tasks, and now you're coming up to the place for your your final vows
Pat:Right.
T.J.:To become a full fledged nun.
Pat:That's right.
T.J.:Okay.
Pat:You're using the right words. It's okay. Don't worry about that. They use different words now too, so it doesn't matter.
T.J.:Okay. So, yeah. Take take me to that place. So you're you're ready. You're you're among other, candidates.
Pat:Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:And all of you are going to to give your final vows to become, a bona fide nun? And Got it. And what happened?
Pat:Well, the last that last year, before it happened, before we take vows, I mean, I was thinking more and more about, well, you know, this is pretty serious stuff. You're making a promise to God that you're gonna do this. But I keep having this feeling like, well, I like guys too much for one thing. And then that's not a good thing. Well, it is.
Pat:I mean, it is a good thing, but but it was like and I talked to, you know, my supervisor and everything. She said, it's really natural. She said, do you think all nuns don't like men? I said, well, I don't know. I sure do.
Pat:What's the deal here? And she said, well, yeah, we're normal. That's just something that we're we're giving up. And I kept thinking giving up. Whoo.
Pat:I'm not sure I can do that. You know?
T.J.:And so you're you're, what, 18, 19,
Pat:2012? I think what am I? I'm 20, 20, 21. I'm 21. Yeah.
Pat:Because you have to be they have everything legal. You have to be a certain age before you can do this stuff on your own. And so I I basically said, I can't do it. I really can't do it and be honest with God. I I'm afraid that this is not where God wants me.
Pat:And, you know, you hear about people being called all different places. And here I'm saying, no. God's called me somewhere else. God's God's wants me to be a mom and a wife and a mother. And luckily, thankfully, the superior I had, supervisor, super superior, was really loving and kind about it.
T.J.:So it it was an easy exit for you?
Pat:It it wasn't. It wasn't. I never did anything more difficult. Leaving there was like leaving home. And I didn't realize how if I'd ever be connected with them again, but it turned out that I am.
Pat:I'm totally connected still, and it doesn't matter what I've done. I mean, talk about unconditional love from a community of women. I've got it. Oh, sure. They get upset with me when I do things.
Pat:You wouldn't you wouldn't believe when I told them I was gonna be ordained. Woah. Some were for it, some weren't. Some came and some didn't.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Pat:And, you know, it was it was just like in a real family. And some were really glad. Oh, and here's here's something. This is jumping ahead. After I was out and met Bill, who was my my husband, and and was pregnant and having my first baby.
Pat:My first baby, I thought what it was was twins, but I didn't know that. But my name when you when you become a nun back then, not anymore. But back then, you'd get a different name because you were starting a new life, you get a well, you had to take a saint's name. And there are very few women saints. See how unfair that is.
Pat:But anyway, I, you get 3 choices. And I thought, well, I definitely like Old Testament. So I put down the name Jacob, Never thinking I'd get it. I got Jacob. I was sister Jacob.
Pat:So I have twins and these nuns write to me and say, if this isn't a God thing, we don't know what is. Hey, Jacob. What's it like? Did you have one that has red hair? You know, it was like, come on.
Pat:I mean, they that was
T.J.:You got a good ribbing.
Pat:I did. I did. And, yeah, it it it was, it still is family, and and and I'm part of that now. I'm I'm part of the, they have a, gosh. I don't even know what we call it, association, I guess.
Pat:But there is a group or or this goes on all over the country called oblates. And they're lay people who are connected with a community. And you you try and live the rule, which basically means it's a simply you it's a simple, simplified way of praying. You pray the Psalms. You can almost anything you do, it can become a prayer.
Pat:And that's important to me because I think work in prayer is really related. And so I'm an oblate, and it's the only order in the church, in the Catholic church, that has Protestants and Catholics. There there there are Anglican Benedictines. There there are very few Presbyterian Benedictines, but there are Luther and Benedictines. They're they're just they're all over the place.
Pat:And it's it's bringing people together who want to follow the gospel, terrorism, and and have a day make your day a day of prayer in some way. And that's that's what I try to do.
T.J.:If we can let's go back to the time when you left the convent. Where was your faith? Was it strengthened? I mean, was that a moment of clarity? Was it a struggle?
T.J.:What was that like for you and your relationship with God?
Pat:Well, in spite of feeling really lost in a sense that I felt like I had no more I was leaving the family, you know, or my family.
T.J.:With the desire to start your own family.
Pat:Right. Exactly. And one of the dilemmas really was leaving. Where was I gonna go? You know, I didn't have any place to go.
Pat:And one of the sisters came up with an idea and it worked out. I went to live with her sister and brother-in-law in Kansas City, Missouri. Well, Kansas City, Kansas. And, they had 3 little girls and Harvey had just started a new job as as manager of the only well, it was the beginning of Kmart. And there was another name for it at the time, but it was a brand new store brand new idea in Kansas City, Kansas.
Pat:So I went to live with them. And, of course, what was I gonna do then when I'm there. And I was going to I went to church on Sunday, like everybody did. And I had the idea. Well, they got a school.
Pat:Now what? I went to talk to the pastor, because I thought, well, I'm new here. I'll let him know I'm new. I told him I'm fresh out of the convent, you know? Anyway, it turned out that I went to, superintendent of schools.
Pat:And I got a job just like that. And it was sort of like, this is supposed to be because it just it fell into place. And I I love teaching. I mean, it was it was salvation for me then. Sure.
Pat:I felt strange. And I thought at the time now here today, it's no big deal when somebody leaves the convent. They come and go all the time. But when I left, we were still wearing habits. Nuns don't wear habits anymore or, you know, you you can't tell a nun from anybody else most times.
Pat:I mean, there's some some orders of still wear habits, but for the most part, not. You don't know. And, of course
T.J.:And were you teaching in in the public school system?
Pat:No. No. I'm teaching in a pro private school.
T.J.:Private school.
Pat:School. Yeah. Yeah. For one thing, I didn't have a license in in Missouri or Kansas, and it was KCMO and Kansas City, Kansas right together. And but what the superintendent didn't realize, she thought she was giving me the school that was, like, right next to the parish.
Pat:Not the parish school, but the next one over because the addresses were so similar. Turned out it was in Missouri, not Kansas. So I had to ride the bus. I didn't know how to drive a car. I didn't have one anyway.
Pat:But I still didn't know how to drive a car. But I went over and I went over to I ended up at St. Patrick's in Kansas City, Missouri. And I loved it. I loved teaching.
Pat:The school was great. The parents are wonderful. It was great. Then we had a teacher's meeting. I met Bill's sister.
T.J.:And Bill being your
Pat:Bill is my husband. Right. Right. And, she said to me, well, one of the other lay teachers when I was teaching a Catholic school, you had a couple of lay teachers and mostly nuns. So I was one of the lay teachers.
Pat:And that was different because before I'd been one of the nuns and not one of the late teacher now as a late teacher well I met bill's sister and she said, you're traveling too far. Why don't you come and live with me? I'm thinking of getting an apartment. I gotta get out of the house. And so I did.
Pat:And the rest is history. She didn't like it that her brother was hanging out at that apartment all the time because she moved to get away from him. Mhmm. And well, anyway, that's what happened. That's how I met Bill.
Pat:But we all, Enola and her boyfriend, and Bill and I, were really active in church. It was Vatican 2. Everything was new. White people could talk in church. We could we could do all sorts of stuff, and I thought, hey.
Pat:This is cool. I love this. So I wanted to preach. Well, that's a no no. What makes you think you can preach?
Pat:I don't know. I just thought I can teach. Why can't I preach? I mean, you know, I got
T.J.:So here you are, a young mother.
Pat:Not yet. Not yet. Oh, okay. So you're I'm not in yeah.
T.J.:You're called your yeah. Your call to ministry is, even before you were you were married.
Pat:Oh, yeah. Well, I didn't know that because, of course, in the Catholic church, you can't be ordained anyway. But I was thinking about I thought, well, maybe that's why I went in the convent because I really was supposed to be a priest. That was my thought at the time. And I thought Vatican II is gonna make it happen, and I'm gonna be a priest.
T.J.:I'm looking forward to hearing how this works out.
Pat:Yeah. That was interesting. Alright. But, anyway, when we got married, because it was Vatican too, I'm telling you, we had more priests and nuns at our wedding than we had. I had my whole class there.
Pat:All the nuns from both schools I was teaching in, nuns came from St. Ben's. There were there were priests that we knew that we were I mean, everything had changed in the church. It was so open. There were Protestants for heaven's sakes at our wedding.
Pat:I mean, good God. Well, of course, my my dad's side of the family was Protestant.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Pat:And so yeah. And it was great. And there was no it was just, a great time in the church because everything was open, and things didn't begin to change until there was a new pope who, you know, said no birth control. And, well, that's another whole story. I mean, I started I had 4 children when the oldest was 2.
Pat:And I'm saying there's no birth control. You gotta be kidding. And so I take my pill and salute the pup in the morning, you know, Say, hey. You know, you can't make these rules for me. I mean, I could have 20 kids by the time I'm done.
Pat:And I still had, what, 6, 7 before they were well, no. The last one was a little bit later, but I had 6, and the oldest was 4.
T.J.:Woah. You had 6 children.
Pat:6 yeah. And the oldest was, yeah, they were gonna just turn 5. Yeah.
T.J.:Now your first two children were were twins. Were
Pat:twins. Yeah. Yeah. And then then the next one came real quick, and so we called them Irish trip triplets. You know?
Pat:Yeah. But but the pope making these decisions, and he almost changed his mind. But some of the others got to him, and he didn't, and birth control was wrong. I said, oh, no. No.
Pat:No. No. Because I had learned in theology that as far as Catholics are concerned at that time, that's what I learned was that your conscience is predominant, and you, you have to have an informed conscience. You can't just say, well, my conscience says this or that. No.
Pat:You gotta pray about it. You've got to think it through and make a case for yourself. And I sure did. I said, you know, I prayed for a family. I prayed to have children, but this is ridiculous.
Pat:You know, I haven't gotten out of a nightgown for 4 or 5 years or a bathrobe because I couldn't. I was feeding kids and bathing kids and getting wet myself, and I just thought, you know, I got I gotta I gotta be able to get out and go somewhere besides taking care of these kids. I love them dearly, and we played a lot. But my gosh, you know, I was having my own nursery school. And, it was
T.J.:And at that time, you were a deeply Catholic family.
Pat:Yeah. Really. Truly. And and I did well, I had the kids making banners when they were barely able to. I I started that early with them, and we we they we did art all together.
Pat:And then there were the race riots, and, I was hired to be the, well, I'm I'm getting way ahead of myself, but Bill was working at Rockhurst College, which is a Jesuit school. And he wanted to be a president of a college. And so we say that college is short time, so we could climb the academic ladder. But at that time, I got hired to be the director of the art gallery. And it was a great, great experience because then the kids got involved in art that way too.
Pat:But it was also time of the race riots. And I was on marches all the time, and I was I I took the kids. I think they they knew how to say well done before they could say some of the other words they probably should have said because we were boycotting lettuce and grapes. And, they got to know that side of things too. And it was all really we lived in an area where it was social justice and, peace.
Pat:It was, you know, Vietnam and poor Bill. I have to I I have to say, I'm I'm sorry if I did this. Hubert Humphrey came to talk at the college, and I decorated the buggy. I had all the kids that I had at the time in the buggy, but this buggy that I made had streamers and colors in on it outside. It said, make love, not war.
Pat:And, I mean, you know, gosh, we sure did. You know? And and I was so against the war, and here's Hubert Humphrey standing up on the stage. And here I am with a buggy full of kids saying the war is not right.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Pat:So that was that was that. And, yeah, that's how the kids grew up with with ideas that were, it was it was a different kind of time. Vietnam and the church becoming open to everybody and not being what what I now know Protestants think or thought of the Catholic Church. It was so different. And I loved it.
Pat:And I was, at some point reconnected with the Benedictines. I never really lost track of some of them. But you know, I wasn't, I hadn't gone back there. And then I went I went back. We went back to see them and, you know, have the kids know that Saint Ben's was my home, that sort of thing.
Pat:But God was, you know, God is always changing and God has a tremendous sense of humor, And I've never been afraid to tell God exactly how I feel about anything. And I don't use polite language because those are other people's words. They're not mine. And so my prayers, people wouldn't really wanna hear. And that's okay because they're for God.
T.J.:So what were you and God talking about in this stage of your life? So your children are a little bit older and you were telling me, before we got recording on another occasion that, as a family, you moved around a lot as your husband was, the president at different universities and that sort of thing. So what is your conversations, What is your prayer life? And what is your relationship life, with God?
Pat:Well, for one thing, I I was reading a whole lot more. And I was into theology. Because when the kids were asleep, I read or I was going to school with them. I thought it's really silly for me to sit at the table while they're doing their homework. I should be doing homework too.
Pat:So I kept, I went to school every place we went and was doing homework with them. But as far as God goes in different places, I had, I had such wonderful experiences because I was experiencing different parts of the country, different, culture. We lived in, in Kansas, in Missouri, in Michigan, in California, New York, and all those different places had a different flavor. And almost every place that we were, we were fully ecumenical. We always belong to groups that never asked for your label.
Pat:It wasn't that important. If we could pray together and talk together, it was a good thing. On on Thanksgiving, we'd go to in the morning to Dorothy Day and help feed the homeless and then have our turkey dinner later at night. But Thanksgiving always started out with people who were different, and that's how the kids grew up no matter where we were.
T.J.:Let's talk about your transition from the Catholic church to the Protestant church. And I think your calling in the ministry is also intertwined with this part of your journey as well.
Pat:Yeah. Well yeah. And before I even get to that place in California, I was a a DRE in our parish, and it was a brand new parish. And this was not a megachurch. It was just
T.J.:Now what now what is a DRE?
Pat:A director of Christianette. Or in our terms, in Cumberland terms, I'll be director of Christian Ed. I was director of religious education
T.J.:Okay.
Pat:In the parish. Well, this church has been divided a couple times, but there were so many people moving in, young families, and there were, you know, the what people say 2.2 kids or whatever. Our average is 3.5 in Penasquitas. This was right below at Rancho Bernardo. So there are a lot of kids in this area.
Pat:And, it was a fantastic experience for me because, I was getting my MRE at the time. And the diocese had decided that the kids in California were not going to get cheap grace. You're every no one could teach, in our term, Sunday school, unless they took a year training from the diocese about how to teach kids. So I had 700 kids in grades 1 to 8. I had 70 parents that took these kids each into their homes once a week for religious set.
Pat:And I had 70 some preschoolers that another we worked that out. And then we had another whole youth ministry. But during that time, the pastor, both of them were 2 wonderful guys. Terrific. Frank, who was the pastor, said, Pat, it's your turn to preach.
Pat:They're gonna preach. I said, what? Because I've been beefing about it all the time. He said, yeah. This is a good gospel for you to take.
Pat:And it was the 3rd Sunday of Advent. It was the Mary gospel, all that, and I got to preach. And what happened at that time in a Catholic church, you don't ever clap, at least not then. You didn't. Even though it's Vatican 2.
Pat:I finished the homily. There were 4 masses. I had to do this 4 times. And I looked around. Frank wasn't there.
Pat:Barry was having was saying mass, and Frank wasn't anywhere around. And I and I thought, oh my god. Where's Frank? Well, I finished and it was dead silence. And then all of a sudden everybody got up and clapped and yelled.
Pat:It was like at a football game. Well, by that, that that freaked me out. I'm going, woah. I'm not that good. Well, I wasn't.
Pat:It was the fact that a woman got to preach. That was it. Mhmm. I did I'm sure that was it. And then that happened 4 times.
Pat:But in the meantime, Frank came, and he he just hugged me. He said, Pat, I was outside crying because that's this is the way it should be. We should be doing this together. He said, you're gonna be able to do this with us. Of course, the bishop heard about it, and we had to call it something else.
Pat:I could do it if they gave it a different name. So my preaching was now had now become a reflection.
T.J.:Here, we will pause our conversation with Pat Pickett. The next episode will continue where we left off. If you are enjoying Cumberland Road, consider subscribing on Apple, Spotify, Google, or your favorite podcast site so you don't miss exploring faith journeys from GreatCast.
