Paul Tucker - The Sense Of Discovering Our Belovedness
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. My guest is one of the kindest persons I have ever met. Reverend Paul Tucker has been serving the Brush Hill Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Nashville in various capacities for the past 12 years. From being a volunteer, to youth ministry, to serving a congregation, Paul shares his progression to wanting to be part of a ministry that is intergenerational, to meet people in the different seasons of their lives. He talks about the impact his mother and a high school friend had in his faith formation. And he says the church, at its best, is when it becomes humble, admitting when we make mistakes and seek forgiveness. Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road, and here is the faith journey of Paul Tucker.
T.J.:Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining me.
Paul:Thanks for having me. I'm I'm excited to be here and excited to to talk.
T.J.:If you don't mind, how about we start with, where you're serving and, how long you've been been at Brush Hill?
Paul:Yeah. Well, that's right. I'm at Brush Hill Cumberland Presbyterian over in, Englewood area of East Nashville. That's kinda how I like to say it. I have been over here since 2010.
Paul:So pretty pretty good while now. Yeah. Yeah. And and really still enjoy it. Still love being here and being at the church.
T.J.:One of the reasons I reached out to you to be on the podcast, well, I wanted to hear your faith journey, but you've also had a journey in ministry because at at Brush Hill, your first role there was as youth minister, and now you are the pastor of the church. So how about we start there? We can always go backwards, forwards, present, past, future. But walk me through how, you came in contact with Brush Hill. You started as a youth minister, and now you're the the minister there.
Paul:Absolutely. It those early days kinda felt like a whirlwind as far as feeling called to ministry and figuring out what that meant and figuring out what ministry meant. And, that all kinda happened when I was in college. And like you said, we're happy to go back and talk about that. But as far as my my time with Brush Hill, I started out, I grew up in the Jenkins Cumberland Presbyterian Church, down in Nolensville, which is where I'm from, Nolensville, Tennessee.
Paul:And I was kinda serving there as a volunteer. And then, about that time is when Patrick Wilkerson became the youth pastor there. He was there for a number of years. And when he came on board, I guess I I officially became like an intern, and a youth intern or or whatever that means. And
T.J.:Now were you were you an adult or youth at that time?
Paul:At that time, I was I was finishing college, I think. I had either 1 or 2 years left in college. Maybe just 1. Okay. And yeah.
Paul:So I I don't know if I was an adult or not. I don't know what you consider a college kid, maybe. Sort of. But yeah. So, I I I started one summer, with Patrick at, kinda going through the camp system, you know.
Paul:I was at Sonata Camp, which is the main, high school camp here in Middle Tennessee. And I went to CPYC that year, the first time I'd ever done that. I didn't go as a kid as a as a student. And, so I got to experience that and, it wasn't too long. I guess that after that summer I was graduating college in December of that same year.
Paul:And, that summer I had met, Reverend Kenny Butcher who at the time was had just become pastor had he they were looking for somebody. And and I guess since we'd served together and I was there, my name kinda got around. And so I I remember graduating college and then, almost immediately had an interview here and it went really well, and the rest is history. So Well, that's interesting.
T.J.:Yeah. So so in Brush Hill's recent history, there's a kind of a growing maybe of a grooming of of youth ministry into, the full time ministry as in minister of the word and sacraments. That's a wonderful plan.
Paul:I guess so. I I guess so. I don't you'd have to ask the people at Brush Hill how they feel about it. But, but, yeah, that has been the trajectory for both Kenny and myself. And, you know, I was always kind of I was kinda worried at first because you've heard you hear stories sometimes, like, what's it gonna be like following the guy, you know, and they're at the same church with you?
Paul:What that's, what's that gonna be like? And, but Kenny was outstanding to work with. He and I really appreciated him because I didn't know anything about ministry really. Like, it was still very fresh and certainly doing youth ministry and having him be had had been here for 3 years. He's very supportive and so we worked really well together and I credit him with a lot of, just just any sort of growth that I have, being here at Brush Hill.
Paul:So that that was good and, so yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:And he received a call to another place to serve. And then you were pulling kind of double duty there for a while, youth ministry and and stated supply. How did that work out?
Paul:Yeah. We we just called it, interim pastor. Okay. And but yeah. So he left.
Paul:He got called to another church in Mount Juliet, which is where he'd moved to, a year maybe prior. And so he's serving at a church out there in Mount Juliet. And so he left August of 2019, and so I just was kinda doing everything until, I officially I became official in February 2020 as pastor here. And so, yeah, I was kinda doing everything, and then eventually we got a wonderful volunteer, a a girl who was in college and she started interning with us. Eventually, she was our volunteer for, a pretty good while.
Paul:And that was that was very helpful, but you're right. Yeah. I I was kinda doing it all there for for a little bit.
T.J.:Well, let's stay here for a few minutes and talk about the the wonderful gifts and opportunities that you had from moving as youth minister and, you know, serving alongside other people and then that gradual move into the pastor that is intergenerational. What are the benefits to that? And and maybe what what are some of the difficulties that come along, at least in your experience?
Paul:I I think several things. I mean, for me, I had I had in my particular story, my particular time, especially becoming the pastor, you know, February 2020 with everything that was about to come, I was looking back now, I'm incredibly thankful that I had those deep roots with people at Brush Shell. So I had a I had a lot of trust and it really meant a lot to me that they they believed in me at that time to to make that jump, from, associate pastor of youth into the kinda senior pastor role. But I think it was really beneficial because it brought I I I carried with me a strong sense that's of wanting to be intergenerational, wanting to include the youth and the older adults together and really live out what I think is truly what the church should be. It should be altogether.
Paul:I I look back and I I you know, there's something sometimes I did that really well in youth ministry and other times I kinda operated like, you know, they can tend to be sometimes a youth ministry off to side or whatever, but the very best times of ministry, I think really if you ask the youth, they'd probably say it and older adults is when I was able to bring those things together. So I do think kind of coming out of youth ministry, having that as a priority and that experience, allowed me to, kinda bridge both worlds a little bit and kinda be be that bridge that that sometimes is needed between the generations.
T.J.:Right. You know, the challenges in ministry is in your well, from the teaching aspect but also in your pastoral care, it looks different pertaining to, with the example of age groups. And so talk about that for a minute, Paul. The challenges but the blessings that come with that as well is, you know, there's the shifting of gears and and approach and tone and time spent. All that probably looks differently.
T.J.:How was that for you?
Paul:Yeah. Good question. I think that, of course, you're you're meeting people in different places just in life. You know, the seasons of life they're in. I I I like many other people, I think and I think the Bible talks about it for a reason, but all season of life thing is so true.
T.J.:Right.
Paul:And so in some ways, it's, you know, it's just different. I mean, you're meeting people when they are saying goodbye to their spouse, if they're really old and their spouse passes away, or you're trying to navigate how do I raise kids, which, you know, that overlaps in youth ministry too, but, you know, people people that actually have means, you know, working with teenagers, a lot of them don't have means. And so, like, how do I use my use that stuff well? But it's amazing how all of that really overlaps too. I mean, you know, we're called to use what we have whether that's as a teenager, your your time, your energy, like you're discovering your gifts or whether you're, you know, 35 or 50 or whatever.
Paul:And so a lot of that really overlaps. It's about trying to find that right context to to use those things. You know, I I and I imagine too, like, I'm just thinking about my experience, and it's amazing how one of my favorite parts of youth Like I thought, you know, that's something I would harp on so much to the teenagers. And as I've been in, like, adult ministry, I'm like, oh, yeah. We we need to hear that too.
Paul:You know? We need to hear that you're more you know, your identity is not in all of these other things. It's it's in, God's grace to you in Christ. And so it's it's it is different. You know, there's specific contextual things to the age groups, but I think deep down, a lot of the core questions and things of life are really similar.
Paul:And I think maybe it's it's those things that can allow, bridges to be formed between generations as well. Does that make sense?
T.J.:Oh, yeah. Yeah. It does. Okay. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, Paul, you're one of the, kindest people I have ever met. And who have been in your life examples of the faith, examples of how to express love and kindness. Who has influenced you and shaped you?
Paul:Yes. TJ, you're not around me a whole lot. I've got you pulled. No. No.
Paul:No. I I do really appreciate that. I I I I hope to be kind, you know, but, yeah. I have my moments.
T.J.:I'm sure we all do, the times I have been around you. Yeah. I mean, you even have a nickname. I don't know if you've heard this nickname before, but, some have called you Saint Paul and have said it in terms of not in jest, but of in great endearment. And and I didn't know that until recently.
T.J.:I was like, wow. That kind of fits? Oh. But granted, I don't live with you. I I'm in a different town, so, you know, but others have seen seen goodness in you as well.
T.J.:But back to the question Yes.
Paul:Yes. Paul,
T.J.:the wonderful people that have helped shape you and shape your faith.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It would probably start with my mom. You know, she She was my earliest introduction to church, introduction to faith.
Paul:She was the one that brought it home. I mean, you know, my earliest memories are praying, mealtime, you know, and one thing that she did a lot, which I look back now, there's so many little things that you look back in time and you're like, oh, I bet that was, but that's one of the reasons why I'm like comfortable or I'm who I am now, you know, like, and once one of the things was she had had my sister and I pray before meals, you know, and so I got used to praying out loud and, you know, I kinda do that once or twice now in my profession, you know, so I'm really thankful for that, but I, I would say my mom, there's, there's a lady at my church, who always she always makes this joke that she had a drug problem when she was younger, because her her parents drug her to church, you know, whenever the doors are open. And and I laugh at that, and I think about my mom and and, you know, going going to worship was not there wasn't a debate. You know? It wasn't, it wasn't something she was willing to hear my side on.
Paul:And, of course, that caused battles, you know, growing up, but it again, those battles were won in her mind. We were going. You know? And so, I look back and as much as sometimes that was frustrating, I was I'm thankful for it, you know, because, it did instill a a sense of faith in me and a and a understanding of, the gospel and Christ. And so I credit her for a lot of that.
Paul:Even to this day, since I started speaking regularly at Brush Hill, she she drives and comes to hear me each week, which is pretty astounding, I think. So I would say she probably formed the earliest part of that for me, that earliest identity along with, the pastor at my home church growing up, brother Larry Geland. It's interesting. Like, I probably couldn't tell you necessarily, like, one sermon that he spoke that I but it's more, you know, and you hear this a lot. It's about the presence they have with somebody, you know, it's not necessarily even what they say, but their presence with you.
Paul:And I remember my mom, you know, some, some people can go back and trace their CP history, like, you know, all the way back to the original founders or whatever. And that was not my experience. My mom, I think she grew up church of Christ maybe, and she came to Jenkins because, brother Larry, spoke about love and grace and that that meant a lot to her, you know. And so I was I'm I still feel fairly new to the CP world, but, so I would say her, brother Larry, as I always call them, we're probably the earliest. And then another, like, really important person for me was in late middle school, high school.
Paul:I met one of my best friends named Levi, and he really had a strong impact in shaping my faith. And I think from the perspective of, one, it was someone my age that like took their faith seriously. And again, like as much as I went to church and all of those things, like, I practice my drawing a lot of times during the sermon, you know, or I would flip through and find the battles in scripture and wanna read about those, you know, like it was the typical maybe kid things. And I hear somebody that was my age that I thought was a really awesome, kind, great guy. And he wanted to follow Jesus and he stuck by what he said and he believed in it and he lived it.
Paul:And I, so I was like, wow, you know, we just kinda hit it off. We became friends. And so, yeah. And he was someone too that showed me that there's another, like Christianity can be a lot of things. Like he loved heavy metal music and I I love heavy metal music, you know.
Paul:So, like, there's, like, Christian metal music. And I was like, what is that? You can enjoy this and still, like, you know, be a Christian? And the answer is, of course, yeah. But, so I don't know.
Paul:All of those things kinda really help that that really good foundation, I think, for me. And then anything else I would say just CP family I've worked with over the years, those those, wonderful people that give me that nickname, which is so undeserved. I I do think they tease a lot of times, and maybe there's some there's some truth in there too. I don't know. But, and just, you know, people over the years, the greater, I think, communion of saints so to speak as far as the the writers and sages and people throughout church history that I've read and helped me encounter Jesus in loving kind ways.
Paul:You know?
T.J.:Yeah. It really is a community. It really most often is a community that has opened its arms and and provided influence and example. It's a challenging question to to narrow it down to just 1, 2, you know, 3 people when it's been so many in in all of our lives that have impacted us in some way. Paul, was there a pivotal moment in your life, a meaningful moment in your life where you really started to take your relationship with God and and living out your faith, were just poured out of you more.
T.J.:And it was more intentional, and and I led to a call to some degree. Is there was there a moment or a time or a season, as you said, that really, helped shape you into the vocation that you have now?
Paul:Yeah. I mean, you know, depends on how far back do you wanna go, but, you know, all the way from again that like my mom and the church's early foundation that was there to my friend Levi who was just one other person that I think really took the faith seriously and we would pray together sometimes and things like that. And when I was in high school, again, I, people experienced their call to ministry in all different times and ways and things like that. For me, it was very early in college, but looking back even in high school when I did start to kinda take my faith a little bit seriously and I think kind of recognize like, oh, like following Jesus means you, maybe think about things a little differently than your peers. And it means you do kind of care about things differently.
Paul:I would say even there I was praying a lot, Lord, what do you want me to do? I have no idea. So I started early in high school just praying about that and really heard nothing, felt nothing, no ideas, went to college. Ended up, my friend and I were roommates together. We stuck stuck stuck together even through college and kept praying, didn't have any idea.
Paul:And, yeah, man. My kind of call story if we if we wanna go there. Sure. Sure.
T.J.:Well, before we before we do, Paul, let let's let's pause here. So this, season of of wandering, the season of unknown, you know, what what did that feel like? And it's not unusual. A lot of young people and adults, young adults and even seasoned adults have these seasons of of wondering what is next, you know. What what is in store?
T.J.:God, what do you want me to do? What was that like for you at that time? Was it frustrating because, you know, that's a time where it's like, okay, you have to at some point go, okay, my degree is my focus is on this. So what did you experience, Paul? What was that like?
Paul:Yeah. It it, I mean, it had its, fair share of frustrating moments, you know, like like I do now, and many others. When you're older, you always ask you always ask, know, students around that age, what do you do with your life? What do you study? And all those wonderful questions that you're just like, please don't ask me that.
Paul:I don't know, you know, or I'll give you an answer, but then ask me again in 3 years and it'll be different, you
T.J.:know. Right.
Paul:Right. We still ask and I and as we should, I think it's important. And I'm glad, I mean, because I was trying to think about these questions. And for me, I just really I did believe that there was something out there for me, but I was still, you know, at that age and really throughout all of life, I'm still doing it now. You're trying to answer the questions of like, who am I?
Paul:You know, how has God made me? What am I? What am I good at? You know, what can I offer? And I did wanna be of use to God.
Paul:I wanted to be someone that had purpose. And, so it was it was it was frustrating at times, yeah. I mean, you know, because I kept kinda waiting and I didn't know, am I waiting for some big supernatural moment? You know, is God gonna show up in the clouds? Is God gonna, speak in that still small voice?
Paul:Am I just gonna get into a major and be like, oh, yeah. This is great. You know? Right. Right.
Paul:So it was frustrating at times for sure.
T.J.:Yeah. I was just thinking from the point of view of, you know, being a college student and for those who who are watching their peers kind of choose career paths, you know, and and paths deviate and change And then have the adults, you know, automatically who you know, Paul, what are you studying? What are you gonna do after you graduate? So, I mean, those are unintentionally, but those end up being pressures.
Paul:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They they do. And again, like, I don't think there's anything wrong with the people.
Paul:All that everyone asking it is doing it out of pure good intentions. It's just part of what it's like growing up and and feeling that kind of time clock. And and I tell people all the time now, I mean, because I changed my major, like, 5 times. Like, it's it's all good. You know?
Paul:Like, you can give me an answer and if you don't know, that's okay. You know? And as I'm sure, you know, TJ and many of the people that are listening, like we change careers all the time now. I mean, I think about just our like current context where so many people made career changes over the last few years and all of those things. So, so yeah, there was pressure, but I mean, it was just normal, I think pressure.
Paul:And and even probably more so for my parents who were like, you know, we we want you to be okay when you graduate. You're welcome back home, but, we kinda want you to, you know, get on with your life. So, but, yeah, like I said, I changed my major a whole a whole bunch of times, and I was I was pretty set on landscape architecture. Like, I was feeling good about that, you know, towards the end, I graduated with an environmental science degree, you know, I was I'd always loved the outdoors. And so I thought that's the way, you know, the way I was going but that was not the case.
T.J.:Have those skills carried over into ministry in any way?
Paul:Not as much as I would like. I yeah. No. I I wish more. I mean, I'll I'll I enjoy taking the youth hiking, but, you know, not as not as much as I'd like.
Paul:I need to, like, get out and redesign the church's, like, landscape or something. That would be fun, but that's that's also another life ago. I mean, you know, that was 10, 15 years ago.
T.J.:You could become a resource of, redesigning, you know, churches, you know, their front area, their Yeah. You know, the the, outdoor space. How can it be more inviting?
Paul:I know. Well, have you have you been to Brush Hill? I mean, do you know do you know our our property and all that?
T.J.:Not in years. Not not since being, you know, growing up in in the Nashville area, and then that's been a minute.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:So Well, it's Church buildings tend to run together.
Paul:Yes. No. I totally understand. Well and maybe there's many other churches that are like this. Again, I I have very limited context being a brochure only, but it's got this beautiful green space that, you know, I'd love to right now, it's basically a dog park in the neighborhood.
Paul:People come and use it, and we do we do. We have plenty of things we do. But but anyway, that's that's a whole another thing. I would love to see it be at ease.
T.J.:I'm gonna keep you in mind as a Yeah. There you go. As a future landscaping church landscaping consultant.
Paul:It's it's funny. I mean, I I I still love that side of things and love the outdoors and such a huge part of of who I am. And even that's that played a role like in, travel and seeing the world and like being outside especially played a role in like being called to ministry because, I felt that call or whatever in college. And I remember my, at the time, the youth leader that was at Jenkins, she, you know, she'd asked me to be a part of the youth group every week at Jenkins. I wanted nothing to do with it.
Paul:So I I didn't have any youth ministry background whatsoever. I I was content. Like, I went to Sunday school, but she and, you know, she tried her best. I didn't do anything with youth my entire time growing up. No youth group, no trip, maybe 1 or 2 trips, but that's about it.
Paul:Yeah. So she calls me in college and she's like, hey, we really need someone to like be an adult volunteer for this mission trip we're doing the summer. And I was like, you do know you're talking to the same person that told you no for, you know, 7 years growing up or whatever, 8 years growing up. And she was like, well, it's to Puerto Rico. And I was like, okay.
Paul:I might I might rethink this. You know? And so I I was like, yeah. I'd love to go to Puerto Rico. So totally with not the purest intentions.
Paul:I just wanna go see the world and go to some exotic place and, you know, all that fun stuff. And, yeah, it's there that my heart just like opened and I felt, I felt like I had clarity for the first time in years when it came to you're supposed to do you're supposed to the specific words I heard were love the youth and that went into youth ministry and, you know, and then that's kind of evolved over the years. But yeah, so I'm, I'm really thankful. And I love that too because it's made me throughout my ministry with youth, I don't like fret if someone tells me no. You know, if I invite a student and they say no right
T.J.:now, I
Paul:say, alright. Well, I'll keep I'll keep doing it, but you never know how God's gonna, you know, be at work. So
T.J.:That's right. You you're living proof of that.
Paul:That's right. That's right. And now I go you know, for years, I went to camp all the time, so I made up for all those things I said no to. You know? Yeah.
T.J.:Well, Paul, where where are you seeing God now? Where are you experiencing the presence of God today?
Paul:Yeah. You know, that can be in a lot of ways I get. I think about I think it I I don't know. I see it in a lot of ways. I I see God in in our church in a lot of ways, in the sense of people praying and struggling through all that prayer is.
Paul:Mhmm. Hearing God clearly, the struggle to hear God, God pulling back and allowing us to kind of dig deeper and really have that passion. I mean, we've had a lot of awesome prayers answered over the years of healing and all kinds of things. Mhmm. I see God in gosh, even just yesterday I was at the hospital and I just finished, like, meeting, and visiting the people that I was there to see.
Paul:And I get on I'm about to get on the elevator to go downstairs and a girl kinda says something to me and I don't know if you ever have this experience, but, sometimes just, I don't know, it's the way someone says something to you or there's like the doors cracked open just a little bit for maybe a further conversation. And usually, if I can sense that, I'll take it. You know? Because Yeah. I'm not the I'm certainly not an extroverted person whatsoever.
Paul:So a lot of times, that's not my natural instinct. But for whatever reason, I'm like, oh, okay. The door's cracked open. So I took it, you know, and and started asking her about what's going on. And she said, you know, do you know, are there are there those pastors that that come around like in hospitals?
Paul:And And I was like, oh, you're talking about, like, chaplains? And she's like, yeah. Do you do you know? Are there any here? And I was like, well, I think so.
Paul:Maybe they'll come around, but, you know, just so you know, I I am too right here. You know? And she's like, oh, great. You know, let me tell you let me tell you about my life. And so even little things like that kind of the right place at the right time moments.
Paul:Right.
T.J.:And and being open to them and being receptive and yeah.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, there's plenty of times when I'm not. There's plenty of times when, I even sometimes I'll I'll be at home and I'll see a neighbor and I'll be like, I feel it kind of within me.
Paul:Like, you should go talk to them, like go, you know, invest in that relationship and I'll be like, it's been a long day. I don't know if I want to. And then and then so sometimes I won't. And then but all the time when I when I stop and I really listen and I go for it, I'm always glad I did. You know, even if it's not some big profound anything, but it's just an opportunity to be encouraging or be present or get to know him.
Paul:You know? I know that God will lead there'll be something more down the road. So, sometimes it's God in those little moments like that. You know?
T.J.:I'm glad to hear that. I I feel that a lot. And then, you know, sometimes a sense of guilt. Like, I had that opportunity to, I don't know, more than just wave as we're checking the mail at the same time, my neighbor and I, or or, you know, taking the opportunity that you're standing in line, everybody's miserable. You know, could could you share that misery for a moment and talk about something else?
T.J.:And and then I think back, I I missed an opportunity. I missed an opportunity to gain meeting someone new or developing a relationship, hearing a story, sharing an experience.
Paul:Yes. Yes. I've had too many experiences in life where I'll just either be at the right place at the right time. Or like for example, I, in my youth ministry days, full time, I still do youth now, but, I remember wanting to go over to our local high school, to to see if I could help. I just went I know they had this great after school program.
Paul:They did all kinds of things. And I went over there thinking, alright, I've gotta go over there and help out with some homework because I've I've experienced like some kids that really are kinda struggling academically. And I I don't necessarily remember calculus, but maybe I can be, you know, sort of encouraging and help, you know, here or there. And I get over there and they're like, oh, you know, we we're really glad you're here. We love volunteers.
Paul:We need volunteers. We don't really need anyone to help with homework right now. We need someone to go sit in with the anime club and, like, be their supporter and their kind of adult person there. And I was like, the what club now? The anime club.
Paul:I was I I knew nothing about it. You know? It was so foreign to me, but I got in there and just, alright, Lord. I'm just gonna run with this and see what happens. Well, then, like, the next class of students that came up in the church, guess what they loved?
Paul:Anime. You know? And and I got them involved in the after school program there and they became eventually, they became like the president of that. And I just look at little things like that as just little signs if we just trust that God is there, you know, and trust that God wants to use us in all of our, you know, mess. And like I said, I'm like you.
Paul:Like, I resist that urge a lot. And sometimes I go into it thinking, I don't know anything about anime or I don't know anything about whatever, you know, even to a, like, a macro level. Lord, you're calling me to ministry? I don't want anything about that. You're calling me to you're calling me to love the youth.
Paul:I didn't wanna go to youth stuff when I was growing up. What are you doing? You know? But if we'll just trust him and say yes and just be open, I I think God will use this. You know?
T.J.:One of the things I've recognized in myself, in terms of a barrier is, you know, instead of taking advantage or leaning into an experience or a potential conversation is I talk myself out of it. Because I'm like, no. I'm here for another reason. I'm in this store for another reason. I'm in this building for another reason.
T.J.:Or I'm in this place to do this and this may deviate. And I'm just now beginning to recognize, well, maybe that so you're there for that particular reason, but couldn't you be present for more than 1?
Paul:Mhmm.
T.J.:And anyway, that's where I'm stuck at. But at least I have recognized it. And it was interesting that you brought this up. It was just it came up at the right time.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I you know, and it kinda, for me, it kinda goes back to this idea of what this bigger picture idea of maybe what the church really needs right now, which is, you know, maybe other maybe you've talked about this, but just this idea of of Christians, not even pastors, but just Christians really being present in their context, whatever that looks like. They're in their grocery stores, in their, you know, whatever groups they're into, their gym, whatever. And, and just being, I think really open and, and one having the, the kind of mindset all the time of of, Lord, I'm here.
Paul:I'm available. Like, use me how you see fit. And I just feel like more and more it's gonna be about us being in the world, of course, and being open to the move of God's spirit and being present for people and, and really being I guess the term is missional. You know, we we throw that term around a lot. And that for me, in some ways, that that means just every day, finding God in the midst of things and being faithful to that bleeding.
Paul:So
T.J.:Well, and there's something about human nature. We are are more responsive to someone who looks like they want to be at the gym or at the park or at the doctor's office as opposed to, you know, a sour faced, angry looking fella like me. It's like, there's no I'd rather be anywhere else but here.
Paul:Yeah.
T.J.:You know, and I think I think there's that visual or, you know, maybe that, that atmosphere, that vibes that we can give off where people recognize that. And it can lead to conversations in a hospital hallway or elevator. It can lead it to and, you know, at a grocery store. And at at minimum, we have passed time with another human being and enjoyed one another's company. And at the most, we could actually be discussing transformative things, that lead to the faith.
T.J.:And,
Paul:I'm And it's also not about us sometimes. Like, I I was just thinking about how I in a lot of the examples, it was me talking to them and hopefully to instill something to them. But a lot of times, it's for us too. Right? You're like, god will use someone else and he'll be like, oh, I need to hear that or whatever.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, for for ministers, I would think. And then there are other professions as well. I mean, you know, it it's, you know, to fix it. You know, there's a problem to be fixed. There's something to overcome or accomplish or or to provide and, you know, we're we're skilled and and it's sometimes expected to explain things when we're probably just better off providing a listening ear.
Paul:I think listening is the keyword. Right? Because it's it's through listening that you might then be then after you listen, be able to offer something or receive something well. Mhmm. And, and I I just I have no problem telling people I have no idea, you know, to whatever question or issue you might have, but I'll I'll go with you to try to figure it out, you know.
Paul:We can try to work together on this, because I don't I don't have any, any doubts about who the hero is and it's it's God, it's Christ, it's the spirit, it's not me, but I I can I can go along with somebody? So
T.J.:Yeah. You were mentioned in a couple minutes ago about the church and what the church is and what it can be. Let's talk more about that. What are we getting right in 2022 as a community of faith? And where are some areas that, we have areas for improvement, in in the, not just like churches in a building, and maybe not even as an institution, but just as a collective group of Christians.
T.J.:What areas do we have that we can improve, what we believe and values and and express to other people into a world that that is hurting.
Paul:Yeah. Yeah. Let's see. Maybe maybe let's start with what are we getting right or or doing well. You know, in a in a time where maybe we are so like overwhelmed with headlines and information and it's so easy to see the, you know, the big headlines of what's really, really good or what's really bad with the church, I I still come back to sometimes I just wanna take people on on the street and just say, can you just come among our church people?
Paul:Because I've got we're I've got some of the most loving, kind, you know, gracious, people and I just think you'd you'd be so well loved, you know. And so I think we can't overlook. One of the things that the church has done well in many times, not perfect, and by all means we get it wrong, I get it wrong a lot. It's just simply loving people, you know, like, I I think that I've talked to so many people that have experienced not just not just my little, you know, our little church here at Brush Hill or any but just great church people that care about them. And I don't wanna overlook, they don't grab headlines, you're not gonna read about them somewhere, but just the faithfulness of God's people in the everyday, whether it's with their biological family, their church family, the people outside of the church, who, you know, I just I I still love that.
Paul:You know, I don't wanna that might be a timeless thing, but it still should be mentioned I think even in today's time that there's a lot of good solid wonderful people doing head headline less work that's, making an impact, for people. So I think that's I think that's part of it. I think at our best at our best, when the church is able to, in humility, recognize our our mistakes and confess and, and listening, go back to that listening word, and I think and the church has has done that. We've resisted that in a lot of ways. We've we've resisted that in some way, but we're at our best.
Paul:I think it really is a powerful thing. And I think we've seen that through the years with some of the bigger things going on in society, the ways in which the church has had to come to repentance, you know, for some of the bigger social issues. I think about all the me too stuff. I think about any issues with race and things like that. And, and that is when I see, I think I I see a lot of beauty and and even saying we didn't, you know, we haven't got it right And we need forgiveness and grace, because that's our story.
Paul:You know, it should be our story. I think the church is getting it right when it comes to, I think of all the great things people are doing to care for the poor and those going, those on the margins, here at Brush Hill, we're, we're super involved. We have for so long with Room in the Inn, which started here in Nashville. And it's such an important part of this church's history. And then things like all the work that Reverend Lisa Cook is doing over at St.
Paul:Luke and, you know, that's just right down the road from us and so we get the kind of a front row seat in Duvat and so and many I I love seeing that. And and then again, this goes back to all my my youth pastor roots, especially being here in Nashville. I I I just love I mean, we have some of the most incredible youth pastors and people that care for students. You know, I've had the privilege of working with Eilish Bradley and BJ Mathis and Ian Taylor and so many wonderful, youth pastors over the years and who really do a good job loving students well and and teaching them well. And so I I, you know, I don't know.
Paul:That's just a few areas where I do think we're getting it right. You know? Maybe where we're not, you know, when we don't listen, when we when we're when we try to act what's what's the right word? When we try to act more like I I think I've heard it put as gatekeepers rather than guides. You know?
Paul:And and I think it's really important as a pastor to try to guide people. That doesn't mean everything's okay. That doesn't mean that there's, you know, there's definitely truth and there's definitely lies and all, you know, all of those things. I think the Bible's pretty clear about all that. But I think one of our main roles should be as guides.
Paul:And I don't know if we've always done a good job of guiding people toward Christ or guiding people toward repentance or really anywhere. Yeah. So we could we could do some work there. I think the church struggles sometimes with power and strength and what does it look like to, you know, not try to be like the world when it comes to our strength, you know, not trying to, you know, I I don't know. That that's a whole another thing.
T.J.:And it it sounds like it it goes full circle then. So in those, areas of improvement or failures, go back to what you said earlier, that repentance, that that grace. So not only is the the faith community, a place that is asking for and seeking out repentance and grace. It it offers it as well. And so it's just kinda this cycle, you know.
T.J.:And, you know, some could say, oh, you're running in circles. But, no, I mean, there's movement. You know, there's not a stagnation that, you know, the community of faith is a place where mistakes are being made and it is also a community where you can receive grace and forgiveness and and and repentance.
Paul:Absolutely. It's it's the story we we live by. It's the story we tell and hope to live out in the world. I mean Mhmm. Yeah.
Paul:I I is in Romans maybe where Paul talks about the kindness of God that leads to repentance. And I just think about let's just think about our story while we're here, you know. I mean, how can we not, be a gracious people? How can we not recognize that all of our, all of our errors and sin and the grace been given to given to us, how can we not extend that to others and guide them along that path as well? I'm so thankful.
Paul:I I hesitate to ever thank God for I don't know everyone wants to say I'm thankful for my sin, you know, I'm thankful for all those things. But I am thankful in the sense that you, you know, reminds you, I'm thankful for Christ, I guess is what I'm saying. Because without Christ, sin would just be hopeless and guilt, you know, would be filled with guilt and shame. But with Christ, it's his grace that when we send leads us back to our story that we live by and hope to share with others. And so, yeah, at our best, we are living by that story.
Paul:We're sharing with others. And I think we're guiding people towards a healthy what I think what I think is a healthy sense of love, which is grace and truth in that perfect kind of relationship together. You know?
T.J.:Paul, before we jump off here, are there any books or movies that you have enjoyed? It can be something brand new, something new that you're in the middle of that has, that has impacted your life, impacted your faith, something worth sharing even if it's for, the form of entertainment?
Paul:I yeah. That's tough. I I really I don't watch a ton of movies. I I'm just amazed at pastors that have time for that. And I need to, I mean, I need to get my schedule figured out a little better, but I I don't I don't have a I don't know.
Paul:I don't feel like I have a ton of time for that. But, I don't know. And I I do love to read. I'm a big reader. When I'm reading non, like, Christian things, I I love fantasy books and, you know, from everything from, like, the Lord of the Rings to some newer things.
Paul:Like, I really enjoy those kind of kind of worlds and characters and all that. But I as far as other kind of books, you know, I'm a big, I really like Dallas Willard. I really like NC Wright. I really like Henry, Henry Nowan. Thinking about just if you were asked this question or not, probably one of my most impactful books is Life of the Beloved, or Beloved by Henry and Allen.
Paul:I remember reading that years ago and just being like, oh my gosh. That that speaks to me, you know, so much. So that that's his quest for to both realize his own belovedness as well as be a person that can help others, guide people others to to that. Was so profound and I think has shaped me in my ministry. So maybe you mentioned that kindness thing earlier.
Paul:Maybe that's where that comes from. I don't know.
T.J.:You were, talking about, you know, not having time for, you know, for movies and, you know, you couldn't think of one that stood out. What are you doing in terms of to keep yourself spiritually and mentally and physically healthy?
Paul:Yeah. That's a good question. As as I'm sure you know, us pastors are are kind of bad at that. Yeah.
T.J.:We're not always the best example.
Paul:Right. Right. Right. Right. So a a couple things do come to mind.
Paul:Like, so for example, I have a pretty strict phone, like, hours, as far as, like, I I won't answer any text or calls. Like, if you if you call me after, like, 7:30 and you wanna know, like, when a camp is, and it's not like tomorrow, you know, like, you're I'm not trying to get your I'm not gonna answer you until the next day. You know? If you if now if you call me and you leave a message and you're like, hey. I'm going to the hospital.
Paul:I will call you right back, you know, but I I really so that's I have some pretty strict hours when it comes to things like that. Mhmm. I'm I'm not the best, but I really try hard to just have just technology and phone really phone hours, screen hours, just in general. You know, like, I don't I don't look at my phone by and large before 8 in the morning. Like, I I'm a you know, I don't I usually don't get up past 6:30.
Paul:On my on my best days, I'd love to get up at 5 or 5:30, but, I, you know, I don't I just need that time with God. You know? I need that time to myself. I need that time to have a cup of coffee. And I usually, you know, my wife and I have a bunch of animals, so I usually walk my dogs and so that's a little, you know, walk I used to walk more, but I I walk a lot.
Paul:So that that's pretty important to me and I'm pretty strict about that. And that helps I think I think on the mental side of things, you know, to to to have that time where I'm not connected, where I'm not involved. I think it helps spiritually to dedicate that time, all right Lord, you know, we're gonna have our time together. And then the health side of things. Yeah.
Paul:Like I like I said, I walk a lot. My wife is vegan. So, like, we eat vegan at home, which I think you can be an unhealthy vegan, but, you know, I I you can you can also, you know, Oreos are vegan. So, you know, you can mingle out on that, but I eat fairly healthy. So I I would say those are some of the things.
Paul:I I need to do a better job of getting away, I think. You know, you you and I are sharing pictures of, places we've been, things like that. And I told you earlier I'm a big outdoors person, so I'd love it if I had a better dedicated time getting outside and, like, getting away a little bit. That's something I've gotta work on, but that's the goal. But I think for me, I have my disciplines as far as the day to day things have been really helpful.
Paul:And time, you know, time with my wife is important that it can improve. So we're we're we're constantly trying to find that balance together. But I appreciate you asking it because I need to keep working on that.
T.J.:Well, I like your input. I kinda like your approach with the technology of especially in the morning, allowing the world to gradually enter into your routine instead of the other way around by, you know, not looking at the phone and you know, because our phones really do open us up to the entire world. And then, you know, just doing that gradually, I think that's very powerful. It's not a practice that I have, but I I like that. I like thinking that way.
Paul:Yeah. Well, like I said, on with with everything, but a long way to go to get to where I feel like God wants it to be, but I it definitely has been has been very meaningful to me. Mhmm. And it's and especially, you know, I grew up, I mean, my my I think it was my last year of high school or my junior year is when like the first social media started coming out, like Myspace and Facebook and all those things. And so we were kinda, like, not sure what we're getting involved with and, you know, and then of course now it's everywhere.
Paul:And I'm, you know, I'm I'm not on there a lot, and I and that's kind of purposeful, but, of course, I can be there.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. If social media world was blowing up, I wouldn't know. Someone would have to tell me.
Paul:Yes. And I I think that's great, you know, because I mean, yeah, there's times when maybe you need to really be involved and plugged in and and you're not saying and you're not saying you're not gonna be, but you are making the choice to try to determine what to determine the terms. Mhmm. You know, so much I think of our life and this, gosh. This is so true of me is determined by other things.
Paul:You know? The world's gonna set your boundaries. Other people will set your in ministry. Gosh. If we don't watch out, other people, the church, everything will set your boundaries, will set your life for you.
Paul:And that's dangerous. And I, at my worst, I'm a people pleaser, I'm a, you know, no boundaries kind of person, all of that, but at my best out of a sense of health and wellness and prioritizing the right things I do create those healthy boundaries. And it's been a good journey and I'm looking forward to continuing it. So because I wanna always minister and serve out of a sense of who I am in Christ for what I can do for Christ, you know, and what I then what I can do for others. So, yeah.
T.J.:If you, Paul, if you had the, captive attention in minds of a group of youth who are seeking, who are have already made a profession of faith, or who are just there because a friend has brought them, what words of encouragement, what words of grace, what words of the faith would you share with them to help them move forward and move into this wonderful creation, this beautiful world and universe that we live in where they know that they can have hope and, have grace?
Paul:You like to ask me the easy ones, TJ? Oh, man. I think it would probably be something along the lines of belovedness, like we kinda talked about that. That's those words that I think now and, of course, he got them from Christ, you know, at his baptism. It's so important, you know, that I think the gospel at its core for us is a sense of discovering that belovedness.
Paul:Not despite our sin, but even through our sin, you know, that on the cross, God meets us, you know, God meets us in our our our lowest state, our worst state, and all the brokenness and all the heartache, and all of our mistakes, all the trauma that has been done to us, all that, you know, whatever our and and that we've done to others, you know, the ways in which we have done. And yet he meets us there with grace, truth, and love. And that I truly believe that that God wants to write a new story, you know, that God wants to use those moments to to bring about beauty and and purpose and giftedness. And you can have a, I would just, I guess, tell those students, you know, emphasize that belovedness, but also emphasize that you have a part in it. You know, God is is calling you, is wanting to use you, has empowered you to use that for others and for him and for yourself.
Paul:And so it'd probably be something along those lines if we're going super general. You know, I don't know. I I think that this is kind of a weird thing that's kinda happened with me in ministry, but since I have the further I've gone in ministry, I've actually kind of developed this, like, love of funerals. Okay? So, I know you weren't expecting us to go here, but I love I've just yeah.
Paul:And and with the caveat that I have not done a lot of super tragic funerals that might change things. But a lot of the funerals I've done especially for people that I think have really sought God and tried to live faithfully and all of those things. To me, I've grown to love them because you're you're telling their story. You know? Yeah.
Paul:Yeah. You're telling their story and you're telling their story along with Christ and seeing where Christ has intersected their story. And so in a weird way, thinking about that has made me think about youth and life now and the kind of story that our lives are writing and telling and listening, you know, it goes back to that listening word we've talked about a few times so far. And so, yeah, I I I don't know. Does that answer anything?
T.J.:Yeah. It was great. Okay.
Paul:I'll let you. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Thank thank you for being the kind example that you are. And for B and Jen, you went in our conversation and and for sharing your faith and your inspiration and and allowing me to to be able to listen to kinda hear what makes you tick and what has brought you to the place that you are in ministry. I I appreciate it, Paul.
Paul:Well, thank you, TJ. And I mean, even as I just said, you know, it's fun for me to tell stories for people, you know, and I I'm really appreciate you giving people the opportunity to tell their story and to listen well and I believe in what you're doing and thank you for the space to offer that. And I hope I don't know. I hope someone heard something good in here and what I have to say and what you have to say and, yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Thank you, Paul.
Paul:Thanks.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to today's podcast. If you enjoy the Cumberland Road, consider subscribing on Apple Podcast and Spotify. And now to close, from Henry Nowen's book, Life of the Beloved. The unfathomable mystery of God is that God is a lover who wants to be loved. The one who created us is waiting for our response to the love that gave us our being. God not only says, you are my beloved. God also asked, do you love me? And offers us countless chances to say yes. That is the spiritual life, the chance to say yes to our inner truth, the spiritual life, thus understood, radically changes everything. Being born and growing up, leaving home and finding a career, being praised and being rejected, walking and resting, praying and playing, becoming ill and becoming healed, yes, living and dying, they all become expressions of that divine question, do you love me?
