Peggy Jean Craig - God Rejoices In Our Humanity
You are listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. The following conversation is the faith journey of Reverend Peggy Jean Craig, the senior pastor of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church of Germantown. She currently serves on the boards of Volunteer Odyssey, Memphis' one stop shop for meaningful volunteer experiences. She also serves on the Metropolitan Interfaith Association, an organization supporting independence of vulnerable seniors and families. And she is on the board of Room in the Inn, an organization that shelters those experiencing homelessness in a safe environment of hospitality. Enjoy my conversation with Peggy Jean Craig.
T.J.:Peggy Jean, we were talking off mic about parenting and having beautiful children and raising beautiful children, what is the most rewarding aspect of being a parent for you?
Peggy Jean:Oh, gosh. You're starting out with the easy questions. Right? Mhmm. I feel like my daughter's gonna listen back to this and mom, I should say that.
Peggy Jean:So the pressure's on. I don't have anything profound to say as far as rewarding, but just to see, I think there's a country song, you know, just to see you smile. Do you know that country song? No. No.
Peggy Jean:As you see you smile, I do anything. You know that? No. Nothing. Okay.
T.J.:I I'm not from I I'm aware of that genre of music, but I I I don't keep up with it.
Peggy Jean:Oh, well, it was about 20, 25 years ago that song came out. So
T.J.:Did you notice how I tried to be very professional in my response of of saying it was a long way of saying I don't listen to country music, so
Peggy Jean:I'm not aware of that story. Well, I don't really either, but, you know, I did grow up in Alabama in rural Alabama, so I had to do something to fit in in high school. That's probably not for I already have my true love weights ring so I had to do something else just up the ante. Okay. That got me really into the club, but, no.
Peggy Jean:I just think that, seeing them smile or laugh or them trying to make you smile or laugh, like, that's the best thing. I mean, those little I mean, is there anything better than those little things? Or in the morning right now, when they get up at, like, 4:30, 4, 5, we go into we have a play, we call it a lounge, not a playpen. Or you know, it's quite a lounge. It's a lot more positive that way.
Peggy Jean:We go into this huge playpen play lounge, and, we lay down. And they're usually still kind of sleepy, but not willing to go back to sleep, which is why we have to take them out of the room that their sister is in. And, we just lay and our faces are right beside each other and they really enjoy touching our your nose right now. So they touch your nose, your face, and it'll say nose nose nose over and over. And there's something so sweet about that until they start digging up into your nose and start hurting and their little nails are so sharp.
Peggy Jean:But I I have wounds in places on my face and inside my face that I've never knew was possible. But those I think those little moments are the things that are most rewarding.
T.J.:The curiosity always amazes me. I hope I haven't lost as I get older, that that desire to to learn more through touch, through the voice, through those early morning hours of being half awake, half asleep. There's something where and that safety element for the child with its parent or guardian of of having that freedom to explore. And as I age, just being a witness to it is is rewarding in and of itself. And especially when they're younger, oh, no, they can even be adults, and when they try to make you laugh as their parent, it's fantastic.
T.J.:You know? I know. And especially when it bombs. You know? It's like Yeah.
T.J.:That's not funny, but I appreciate the effort, which makes it funny.
Peggy Jean:Yeah.
T.J.:Let's continue our theme on parenting. And in terms of relationship, I know one of the attributes that that we attribute to God is, as a parent. What do you think God thinks of us in terms of a creation and the beauty that we have and the messiness and the contradictions that we live through? What do you think God thinks about us?
Peggy Jean:All of your questions are so difficult. I usually have enough, trouble just thinking about what I think of things before I even get to what God thinks of something. And God's ways are not my ways, and God's thoughts are not my thoughts. But, maybe, maybe just thinking back to this, like, the the word relationship that you used, God's steadfast love. I don't know.
Peggy Jean:I think God probably, God's, I think God laughs a lot. I think God is and I think God must be much funnier than I ever could be. I think God rejoices in, in our play, in our laughter, in our hope, in moments when we let the stuff that does not matter go and connect with other people and with the earth, when we see our own interconnectedness with neighbor, with stranger, with immigrant, with widow, with someone living on the streets. If we can if we can hold someone's hand or give someone a hug or even give someone a kiss, all those, like, those moments I think that God rejoices in and God is present in, or or lay in the grass, you know, like, or get our hands dirty and pick the dirt out of our fingernails. I think those are moments, because our God is an incarnate God and that which is so different from other other gods.
Peggy Jean:I think that God rejoices in our humanity and in our messiness, but I also think God's heart must break 2, I mean, I think about, So, our twin girls were born on December 13th, and they were in the Nicky for a while and Joji, though. The one who's 3 minutes older, she came home first, and then Luca came home a few days afterwards. And then, she came home maybe on December 23rd. December 24, she was having trouble eating, and it also seemed like she was having trouble breathing. And she was barely £4.
Peggy Jean:That's how she got to come home. It's she made it to £4. And we had to rush her to the hospital that she had not been at, to a closer hospital to Le Bonheur, and and I was not with her. Matt was with her, and I was with Joji, and it was so hard on Christmas Eve being their first Christmas there being apart from each other and having, her back in the hospital after she had experienced so much trauma her first few days of life. And I just think about how I felt in those moments and how God must feel when God's children are hurting.
Peggy Jean:And when God's creation is hurting, I also, you know, certainly think about the earth and the land and of course how that affects when, when creation is hurting. When the land is hurting that always affects the people who are most vulnerable first. And so when we find ways to share life and to encourage one another and to give life to each other, whether it be through just touch, like holding hands or singing a song together, or whether it is through sharing food and clean water and electricity and access to education, I think God rejoices and I think God's heart breaks when any of God's creation is hurting. Because I've only experienced, like, a little tiny bit of that, but I know that whatever God's emotions must be compounded. I assume God's pretty dramatic.
T.J.:When did you first become aware of the existence of God? Or I can ask that question in a different way. When were the beginnings of a relationship with God?
Peggy Jean:I think that something that's really hard for me to tease out because of where I grew up and who I grew up around and who is in my life. We when I was really young up through maybe maybe kindergarten or maybe 4 or 5 years old, we went to I guess it was a Christian church, so I guess it was Disciples of Christ. And I remember our pastor there was the only thing I remember about him is that he was a magician and he came and, did magic tricks at my birthday at my parent's house. So, that's when maybe I knew magic was real, but I don't know about God. But then, that's more than anything here.
T.J.:That's hilarious. Tricks in theology.
Peggy Jean:Yeah. Probably maybe, 1st grade, 1st or second grade, we started going to a Cumberland Presbyterian Church because my dad had been really good friends and, really good friends when he was younger with, our pastor, Pat Driscoll. And our families were really close, and, I spent a whole lot of time around their family. And I it was this, you know, it wasn't like this moment. It was just this living life together.
Peggy Jean:I can remember going hiking, going to the mountains with the Driscoll's. I can remember, making the way they made macaroni and cheese was so different the way my family made macaroni and cheese. Yeah, ours was out of the box. They put cheddar in and I remember thinking, I like it it from the box better because the cheddar was, like, more stringy. But, like, the I mean, those don't seem like God moments, but those are so somehow, it's I think I was learning what it means to live a life of faith together, and that God is present and moving among us and within us and all of the mundane little things.
Peggy Jean:And so then, of course, I also remember, some people will really not like this, but, that Pat's daughter Christine and I, after communion, we always looked forward to communion Sundays because you got to have that really good bread afterwards that we were just stuffing into our mouths. And so I learned about the abundance and the provision and the grace of God in a way that was really tactile, in a way that was really incarnate, and that didn't stop at a worship service or it didn't happen only between 11 and 12, and didn't stop at the sanctuary walls. I learned, I I saw table blessing this happened where pe where people who were not ordained or who never wore any kind of special kind of clothes would pass me bread and I would get to take that and and somehow connect that to communion in a in a holy, w h o l l y, different way that was also sacred. And so I know that's not maybe answering any of your questions, but it was it was through growing up, through being raised among people who loved each other deeply and who loved God, but that the the image of God was so present in them that it was, it never, it certainly never came from like a Sunday school class.
Peggy Jean:And not that that, I mean I think Christian education is important, but it never came from a Sunday school class or from even a sermon. Even though we had really wonderful preaching, it came from a life together. What? You laugh at it? At that life together?
Peggy Jean:Or did it not come from a
T.J.:I I'm laughing at you backpedaling as soon as you spoke, you're like, no. I didn't mean it that way about Sunday school or sermons.
Peggy Jean:They're all good. But I mean, come on. They're contributing to, like, this larger thing that we're doing together and, actually, I think they can be detrimental when we we become too kind of legalistic or bureaucratic or, think that those structures and frameworks are the only thing, that those are the faith. Those are not the faith. The faith is the stuff that never ends, that we have day in and day out together.
T.J.:Peggy Jean, not everyone has been raised in the type of environment that you had, or they haven't had the same experiences with Christians and the community of faith in general, what words of encouragement or advice would you share with somebody who's not faith connected, who hasn't had the deep roots and the cherished experiences that you've had in childhood and youth and even in adulthood, for them to be drawn to this community?
Peggy Jean:For them to be drawn to this community, it's maybe a little different than to be drawn to the faith, but, to be drawn to this community, I I think about I can't speak about other people's community, so I can maybe speak about our own. There are not many places that I know of, especially in the US, where I can talk about how heartbroken I am that someone is hurting or that someone I love who has died, but also make a really bad joke and hear about what's going on in someone's life or how their scarf how their knitting of their scarf is going or see their progress on what they're writing of all different ages than in the church. I don't I don't think in any other context of how I had had close relationships with people who are in their 9 eighties nineties and who I say I love you to, especially that I'm not related to. And and for me, even, I don't have living grandparents and so, Not not biological living grandparents and so. Having people around me elders who are hilarious, who doubt who have questions.
Peggy Jean:Who are encouraging those that doesn't happen everywhere There and and that happens in the church. And, but maybe this is not an advertisement for the church, but I was thinking recently about the most, like, some of the most important faith formation experiences I've had And, places where I felt very kind of, vividly the Spirit of God. And I realize that most of those experiences, and 2 stand out for me very distinctly right now. 1 just happened last week, have happened around food, around dinner table, and have happened in places that were very not fancy and who places that either did not have a budget or, you know, just were some didn't even have floors.
T.J.:And and before you share, I wanna hear these two stories. But let's give some context. You sent me your bio and it says, Peggy Jean is passionate about justice, diversity, equity, and all things food related. So that was gonna be one of my questions. So this is great.
T.J.:I don't have to ask it. Go ahead.
Peggy Jean:Well, I am very picky about food. That's a different kind of question. I don't know how much faith is in there, honestly. How much of of, certainly not how much grace is in there. I'm not very grace filled when it comes to good food.
Peggy Jean:I'm very particular and very critical. The meals were not outstanding, but but the experiences were.
T.J.:Alright. I interrupted you. So go ahead. No.
Peggy Jean:I feel bad because I feel like if anyone hears it, so they're gonna think that I don't like these kinds of foods. Well, one was so one was last week, and I even talked about it on Sunday. You know that last week, I had a friend in town from South Sudan, who is an Episcopal Bishop in, the South Sudanese church. And, we I was kicking around to see different people. And on Monday, we met a woman named Mama Ruth who is also South Sudanese and she started the refugee empowerment program here in, Memphis and, it mostly helps, I mostly does after school programming and then helps families with the immigration process.
Peggy Jean:So they may be refugees, but, getting here, making sure they're doing everything that they need to do, filling out all the paperwork, but also just kind of getting acclimated to an American context. So we met her on Monday, and, I I just thought I was doing a good job by connecting to South Sudanese people, but then I I got in the room because I thought, you know, okay. We'll meet that they're both here. Maybe they wanna meet, talk, and we got in the room with, Mama Ruth and Cam, who is the executive director of, the Refugee Empowerment Program, and Cam kind of looked at us and said, well, this is your meeting. What did you wanna meet about?
Peggy Jean:And she actually looked at me, and I had I had no idea what I should be talking about. And, thankfully, Joseph started talking and he talked about the church in South Sudan and some of the issues that the needs around, pastors training and primary and secondary education and access to clean water and then mama Ruth spoke up and it's like it's like he didn't say anything at all because she did not really respond to any of those needs or a police plea or his plea for support. She just started kind of preaching. That's the only way I can describe it. And she, has a high school education, but so no formal theological education, but she started preaching, and we just kind of took it all in because you don't, when something like that's happening, you can't, there's nothing you can do but just receive it, I guess.
Peggy Jean:And after she finished preaching, we just said our goodbyes and took a picture and went home because I that was the end of the meeting at that point. And I thought that was the end of our connection, but on Tuesday, mama Ruth called the church building and, and, left a message, and I got in touch with her. And, when I, got a hold of her, she said, I want you and Joseph to come and eat on Thursday night. Joseph was leaving on Friday morning, and she said, so I want y'all to come. He's come so far.
Peggy Jean:So I want you you both to come over. And on Thursday night, we had a lot going on, and we just talked about bedtime routines offline. Bedtime routines end around 7:30. So around 8 o'clock, we pulled up to an apartment building in East Memphis, Joseph and I, and we walked into this pretty small apartment, wall to wall carpet, kind of a, eggshell yellowish walls, a yellow, light, 2 2, loveseats in the living room that were touching that filled up much most of the living room, and then right adjacent to the living room was the dining room, and mama Ruth had a a beautiful kind of beige off white table cloth on the table. It was a long table.
Peggy Jean:One of those, like, rectangle, like, oval tables. And, then she had a plastic table cloth over that, a clear one, you know, because so you could see the beautiful table cloth underneath it. And, there are chairs all around and there were, there was another pastor, a Sudanese pastor. So he was from the northern part of Sudan, not South Sudan. Actually, the part part that had been continually, that had been at war with that was what has now become South Sudan for 40 years.
Peggy Jean:And, a pastor and his wife and then another man from South Sudan and mama Ruth and, the table was absolutely filled. There were 3 different kinds of meat on the table. There was, a beef stew that was cooked in, like, peanut butter and spinach. There was a grilled fish, and then there was, chicken, chicken legs that were all in, like, sauteed or slow cooked maybe in vegetables and and there were vegetables and lot rice and samosas and chickpeas, some chickpeas or white bean thing. And, so a lot of food.
Peggy Jean:And we all sat down and, started putting food on our plates and then a conversation ensued without me and everyone started talking about the different refugee camps they had been in, and that's how they were kind of connecting each other's stories is I was in this refugee camp in Ethiopia. I had to flee after the war broke out, so I went to northern kin you know, to Kokomo, refugee camp, and then somebody else would say, oh, you were in Kokomo. What year were you in Kokomo? And I was there just the year before, you know, and and so it's just a weird thing to hear people whose much of their lives has been in war and that they are all from somehow this what used to be the same country and yet, they know each other by where they have been displaced. Like, that's just a really interesting conversation, and, of course, like, so much of my mind floods back to what we hear in the Hebrew Bible about God's people being displaced so much and then returning to places that are not what they once were.
Peggy Jean:But but after that kind of that conversation, started to die down, mama Ruth, spoke up, and she started preaching again, and she said something like, we there there is no we we need to kind of stop having these divisions. There is no Sudanese and South Sudanese or American. All these divisions are not, these should not be differences are not divisions. Instead, they are gifts. They are individual gifts from God, and when they are brought together, they should be celebrated and that we we we need to receive that from one another.
Peggy Jean:And she said, I love everybody. I love every single person, and we need to just love each other and appreciate and share and come to the table and listen and learn. And and then after she stopped preaching, the the South Sudanese guy started preaching. And by the way, there were 3 pastors at the table. I was there.
Peggy Jean:The Sudanese pastor was there, and then Joseph, who's a bishop, was there, but it was the 2 people who were not ordained who were doing the preaching. And then, then the, at the end of the dinner we prayed. The people who were ordained prayed. So, I prayed and then, Reverend Ishmael who is the Sudanese pastor prayed and then Joseph prayed and then, these folks who had never met this South Sudanese man, one of them who was from Sudan and not South Sudan, before they had ever met him or even heard about him, they they gathered this money, the little money they had together. And so at the end of the dinner, they presented it to him.
Peggy Jean:The Sudanese pastor presented it to the South Sudanese pastor as a gift, and it was a significant monetary gift to be used not for all these other ministries, but for his children. And there was something about the whole dinner that was spirit filled. I was trying to talk to my husband, Matt, about it afterwards, and he said, you know, some people I was explaining mama Ruth has a a just a high school education, and he said, well, you know, some people are just really smart. I said, no. This is she I said, she does sound I do think she's really, really smart, but she I don't know any other way to describe it, but just the the the Spirit of the Lord is upon her to preach good news.
Peggy Jean:Mhmm. And I really believe that. And all of the times that I have experienced that, and the the other time I experienced that pretty strongly was, when I couldn't understand the words that were being said. It was and I've I've written about this and preached about this. It was in Laos when I was a well, no.
Peggy Jean:I wasn't a missionary. It was in Laos when I was not a missionary. And I'd gone to this village, and the chief had invited me in. I was working in kind of communitarian aid for a summer. And he invited me to his house for dinner.
Peggy Jean:He invited the whole village over, and his his, house had a dirt floor and there was no there was no dining room table. We just all sat on the floor in a big circle, and there were all these plates in the middle, and no one had a plate of their own, which is a sermon right there. And, and maybe speaking to our own interdependence. I don't even think I had to feed myself that night. People were stuffing things in my mouth.
Peggy Jean:Even things I did not want put in my mouth. But there was just this sense of love and joy and and and care for neighbor and especially for stranger. And in the middle of the dinner, the chief, he turns around and he starts trying to get something in his house. He's kind of digging through his house, and he pulls out this bottle of Lao Whiskey. Looks like it was made locally.
Peggy Jean:No labels. And everybody gets silent, and he and he gets a shot glass. And, he pours it and he passes it to the person next to him and they drink it and then he takes it back and he pours it again and he keeps doing that until everyone in that circle, everyone who is gathered there, there were no children there by the way, I guess I should say, got a case or a shot, of the most precious thing that he owned. And this man would have never called himself Christian, certainly not Cumberland Presbyterian, but I'm sure if he ever becomes Christian, he'll be Cumberland Presbyterian. We've never called himself Christian, but I could not think of anything more Christ like.
Peggy Jean:I mean, it is what we, I mean, it is almost the closest thing to what we do, the first, Sunday of every month. Than anything I've experienced, outside of the church. And in some ways, it's even more close. It's closer. It's real alcohol.
Peggy Jean:But, he passed it and made sure everyone got a taste of everything, of the best thing that he owned, the most expensive thing, the most precious thing, and that kind of sharing and pouring out of yourself, not just for people who you have responsibility over and who you have seen grow up and live in a village with, but someone who's a stranger you can't even really communicate with. That type of love is, I think, what people are attracted to about the church and certainly about Jesus. And so maybe if we can focus more on that. And I have to remind myself to stop focusing on whether the food is done exactly to my liking, but focus on more meals like that. I don't know.
Peggy Jean:Maybe that maybe that's something that speaks to the future of the church, maybe. I don't know.
T.J.:Yeah. It could. I I wonder if that self reflection of encounters with other people, Sometimes we can feel the presence of God and then other times it's in retrospect. I wonder if we could look forward to future encounters with an anticipation of knowing that we will experience God in some form or fashion through another person.
Peggy Jean:Mhmm.
T.J.:And how much that would transform the world and change the way that we interact, change the way that we speak, even the way we carry ourselves, because I think it would change our demeanor in in the sense that we're always in a posture of anticipating something new and beautiful and loving. It would make us change the way that we approached work, and meetings and doctor's appointments and school. Who would really change the world if we did that? I'm thinking out loud.
Peggy Jean:I mean, what if we really believe that everyone, every single person, that we encountered, whether we voted the same way as them, whether we went to the same church as them, whether they went to church or we can, or not, whether they spoke the same language, whether we thought they should be here or not, or if we really believed that they were image bearers of God. Yeah. And it wasn't just a thing that we said, but that it they really were made in the image and likeness of God. What if we really believe they were a child of God?
T.J.:And not only in other individuals, which I believe we need to do more, but in every experience that god is in that experience and anticipate that, go into that experience knowing, I think it would really, I don't know, it would change perspective in times of when you're anticipating something that may cause anxiety or dread or anger or upcoming loss or whatever it may be, I think it would, I think it would really affect how we look towards the future.
Peggy Jean:You sound like a Jesuit. God in all things. Yeah.
T.J.:Well It's not
Peggy Jean:a good thing. No.
T.J.:It's interesting that these close encounters with God are food related, food and drink related, in some form or fashion. How did you experience a call into ministry? Because you've done, you know, in your education and in your past work experience, you've done all kinds of community minded activities, in the church, outside the church, in the different cities and towns that you've worked in. When did ministry kinda come into the horizon for your
Peggy Jean:vocation? Not at 14 like you, but, but, I mentioned that pastor, Pat Driscoll. I had been living in Nashville well, in Brentwood, and I was out of college. I was working in advertising sales, but I was going, back to Alabama a lot where I grew up and meeting with him some. And, he and I met at, in Rogersville, Alabama.
Peggy Jean:There used to be no place to meet except for the McDonald's. So we met at and, McDonald's is not necessarily my food place of choice. But, Pat and I were meeting at McDonald's and, he said, I see gifts for ministry in you. And in the McDonald's, in the middle of the small town in Rogersville, which they don't that's all they have. So everybody goes there.
Peggy Jean:But that's all they did have. I just started crying and, you know, bawling because, I felt like I knew I was afraid I knew what that meant. I felt like it meant all these constraints on me and my life and what what I had hoped for and I imagined that I would only be able to wear like long button down blue jean skirts and have my hair, like, long and braided because that's what I thought of women in the industry, I guess. I don't know.
T.J.:Why why those thoughts?
Peggy Jean:Well, I think I was thinking specifically of, like, missionaries maybe, and I I don't know, like, very, I thought no makeup, you know, a very covered, no pants. I don't know. I know that's not my experience at the Cumberland Presbyterian Church at all, But somehow that was the image that that came into my mind is very, you know, modest and very pure.
T.J.:Have you prior to this conversation with Pat, had you had any encounters with women in ministry? Or was that your foundation? That's why it went there to the to the very modest trust.
Peggy Jean:That's an interesting question. I don't guess. I don't actually I mean, I I'm thinking about at what so Susan Parker was part of our church, and, but she didn't she was not ordained until later. And Pam Phillips Burke was at probably sometime around maybe within 5, 10 years that time she was in the church, she was at the church in Madison, just thinking about other women who would have been around. But I guess I actually hadn't met any of those.
Peggy Jean:So maybe or encountered them and so I I guess I just I don't know why that was the image. I and I also felt kind of more called to, I thought, maybe mission work, and so I then really did think about missionaries and I thought you had to be really modest like that. I don't know. Anyway, I'm started crying in McDonald's and I'm sure everyone thought I was, was really worried. Why is this young woman sitting with this man and what's he doing to make her cry?
Peggy Jean:But a a few weeks went by, and, at some point, I said, okay. You know, I think I want to explore this idea of of mission, especially. And so then I went as a short term missionary for 6 months to Laos, and on and lived in community with Koreans and Laotians and Cambodians and sometimes Vietnamese and Chinese folks, all in the same house. Kind of the church was also the house, was also work. And on Friday nights, we had prayer.
Peggy Jean:And not probably not like all Cumberland Presbyterian prayers. These were a couple hours long on Friday nights. And the routine was I went to the International University. That's where I learned to drive stick is in Laos and I would pick up all the Cambodian college boys. I'm sure like, the faculty of this university thought, who is this girl?
Peggy Jean:Because I was also in my early twenties and I was doing this. So they all loaded up in the back of this, I guess you'd call it like a jiffany, and I would drive back to the church. I'm sure they did not think we were coming to the church, and they've stayed the whole weekend, and I'd drop them back off on Sunday. Oh, oh, no. This
T.J.:can't be
Peggy Jean:public good at all.
T.J.:Yeah.
Peggy Jean:Not setting a good and and right across the it said Cumberland Presbyterian Church right across the vehicle. I'm kidding. It didn't actually say that. So anyway, I I we I took them back to the church slash our home, and we would eat together, and then we'd have worship. And then that would move into a very long time of prayer.
Peggy Jean:And you would be on the floor usually in a kneeling position. Everyone had their own sometimes you would have your own pillows just because it's hard to sit on the floor on your knees for hours at a time. And there would be usually some type of worship music playing softly in the background, and everyone is praying out loud in their own different languages. Some people are silent for a little while, but and it was during, one of those Friday night prayer times, that I was probably just sitting silently because at some point you just there's not much of there's only so much you can say. And I heard this voice from I don't know.
Peggy Jean:I in my head or was the Holy Spirit or something, that said, do you love me? And I said, yes, Lord. You know that I love you. And then I heard it again. I said, yes, Lord.
Peggy Jean:You know that I love you. And then again and and so much so that, I left prayer early because it was like I was trying to I just needed to move from that position. And my room that I was that I slept in was upstairs, so I went upstairs and started writing in my journal. But, basically I heard then feed my sheep, and, I had planned, like, the 6 months was kind of gonna be the the deal. I'd give God the 6 months, give it kind of my all, and then I would come back to the US and do my own thing.
Peggy Jean:I had plans for a different kind of career and vocation. And, that kind of was it. I came back from there and I had planned I'd gone to college in New York, and so I'd planned to go to go back for my master's in New York. But I, instead stayed in Rogersville, Alabama and taught preschool at our church and, or tried to teach preschool and was a pastoral assistant. I'm not I don't, still don't know really what that was, but it usually meant that I played phase 10 with folks who were homebound and prayed with folks and, did whatever Pat told me to do and, started seminary the next year.
T.J.:I know that you need to leave here in a few minutes, and we have to close this conversation. I like asking guests about what are you reading? What are you watching? What are you listening to? Apparently, you listen to country music, but
Peggy Jean:Oh, no. I told you I listen to, the only to toddler time right now.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Yes. That's right. You're you're straight.
Peggy Jean:I'm reading If I Were A Puppy, if I were a kitty, my tail would be furry. I can quote you almost any, children's book.
T.J.:So the books the books you're currently reading from, each page is made with very thick cardboard material.
Peggy Jean:Oh, yes. That has been chewed on. There are pieces of it gone. I'm usually having to fish it out of a baby's mouth and get my finger bitten and, and, talk. I those really are right now most of what I am listening to and reading unfortunately or unfortunately.
Peggy Jean:There are some good lessons, you know, in all those, in most of the books. Some of those nursery rhymes, I think, were written at strange times and, are a little bit concerning. Go ahead.
T.J.:Not only are they good books, but they also have illustrations to go along with them, you know, how to how to be kind, how to share.
Peggy Jean:Oh, yes. Yeah. No. They they are, they are wonderful. I don't get to do as much reading as I would like to do, but what I, I do try to listen to a few things.
Peggy Jean:When I can, there is the poetry, Padre POTUMA, poetry podcast that I listen to, which I feel like it's really life giving. And when I have time to read, and because it is usually small amounts of time that is not consecutive minutes even together, it's, I usually try to go back to poetry that I, love and helps me to return to myself and to place and to neighbor.
T.J.:Yeah. What do you look for in poetry? You know, it is it freestyle? Is it what is the prose like?
Peggy Jean:I usually end up I'm I'm really I really love poetry that is about creation and about nature and about noticing. So Mary Oliver, Wendell Berry, all those kind of typical folks, but then I also really love, good spoken word, that helps me connect people's, personal experience, their own identity, or, kind of questions about who they are with, with history, with lament, and with rejoicing. I don't know if any of that makes sense, but
T.J.:Well, I would love to have a longer conversation with you, but time of it is of essence. Especially when you have 2 smaller little people who rule your life and your schedule.
Peggy Jean:They do.
T.J.:I enjoy getting to know you a bit better, Peggy Jean, and you made me laugh and I appreciate your authenticity and your storytelling ability in your faith journey.
Peggy Jean:I'm sorry if I carried on too long. I know I just kind of you asked a question, and then I made it made it into my own questions and just responded how I wanted to.
T.J.:Well, you did it your way.
Peggy Jean:Like the reverse of Burger King.
T.J.:Yeah. Right. Through the spoken word.
Peggy Jean:Yeah.
T.J.:Thank you, Peggy Jean.
Peggy Jean:Thank you so much, TJ. It was, great getting to spend time with you, and I really enjoyed our conversation before we started recording about family and how most my life is basically over now.
T.J.:No. Just beginning. It just has more people in it now.
Peggy Jean:Yes.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to this faith conversation of Cumberland Road. To support this podcast, subscribe, follow, and share with others. There are over 100 guests to listen to and more to come. And now let me leave you with a Mary Oliver poem entitled What is the Greatest Gift? What is the greatest gift? Could it be the world itself, the oceans, the meadowlark, the patience of the trees in the wind? Could it be love with its sweet clamor of passion? Something else, something else entirely holds me enthralled. That you have a life that I wonder about more than I wonder about my own, that you have a life courteous, intelligent, that I wonder about more than I wonder about my own, that you have a soul, your own, no one else's, that I wonder about more than I wonder about my own. So that I find my soul clapping its hands for yours more than my own.
