Rian Puckett - God, Family, Church, And Basketball
Welcome to the Cumberland Road, where I have conversations on how one's faith impacts their daily life, their interactions with others, and their vocation. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. My guest this episode is Rian Puckett. Rian is the minister at the Faith Hopewell and the New Hope Cumberland Presbyterian Churches in the Batesville, Arkansas area. Rian also teaches English and is the 7th through 12th grade boys basketball coach. Enjoy this faith journey with Rian Puckett.
T.J.:Rian, what number of, now let me start over. Ryan, how many, jobs do you have kicking right now?
Rian:Well, you know, I was, you said that you mentioned that you I think been up to 5. I don't think I'm at 5. So, of course, I'm the pastor at Faith Hopewell, here in Batesville, Arkansas. Also the pastor of New Hope. So I have 2 churches that I pastor.
Rian:New Hope is a smaller church out in the country. We do that when at 9:30 in the morning, and then I shoot over from there to here at Batesville. It's about a 20 minute drive, and service ends at 10:15. I guess there's no there's no pastor running over very much. Service ends about 10:15, 10:20.
Rian:I head over here.
T.J.:Okay. Every week? Every Sunday?
Rian:Every week. Every Sunday. Yeah. We don't have a midweek service there, but but we do have midweek stuff here at Faith Hopewell in Batesville. And then I also, teach English at Salem High School.
T.J.:Alright.
Rian:And then I'm also the 7th grade through 12th grade basketball coach, boys basketball coach at Salem. And I think that's it right now. I think I've only got 4, jobs, you know. I you know, outside, not counting presbyterial or denominational duties or things like that. But, yeah, I think I'm just at 4.
T.J.:Wow. Four. Four paid positions. At least, some of those are seasonal. Like, you don't teach year round, do you?
Rian:No. And I'm fortunate at Salem right now that that they don't have, you know, a really super heavy teaching load. I only teach a couple of classes there. Now I'm working there, but it is, you know, the teaching side of things is is seasonal. Basketball is partially seasonal.
Rian:Of course, you know, the way things are now, there's a lot of stuff that's done in the summer and in the spring and things like that if you wanna compete. But, but it it's it's partially seasoned well. And I only teach I only coach, one sport. So whenever I was working at baseball, I coached 2 sports. In addition in addition to being the basketball coach, for junior high, I was also the head high school girl soccer coach.
Rian:And so it it's kind of a blessing now that basketball season ends. And at least after school for those next few months, I get I'm I'm not coaching sport in the evening.
T.J.:I know each, state is different and maybe each district or region is different. Where you're at in Arkansas as a basketball coach, can you work with the students? Can you work with the players throughout the year, do tournaments, or are you limited to, the months of the year to where you can actually interact?
Rian:It's pretty open. It's a couple of weeks during the summer that they call it dead period. You can't do anything with them then. And then, you know, outside of that, it's pretty open now. We're a small school, and so we try to really work with the other coaches and stuff.
Rian:And, so, you know, we kinda have to really pay attention to what you're doing within your program. Like right now, my guys and the football program's actually done the same thing. We both gave all our guys a break this week. 95% of the schools out in this area are probably practicing right now. But we gave our guys a complete break this week, kind of end of the summer, take a breather, come back fresh.
Rian:And then, you know, so you kind of sprinkle those in throughout the year. Because I I think there's definitely a diminished return. There's a point where you're just grinding out every day as a team. The kids get to where they don't wanna be there. Mhmm.
Rian:And the return just becomes less and less. And and if you're not careful, you'll you'll burn out those batteries, and it's really hard to to get them recharged once you do that. So so you as a coach, you have to practice some wisdom on on how you manage your kids when you have basically an unchecked access to them.
T.J.:Well, I think science backs that up. Your body needs to recover. And it's not just the physical body. I think it's the mind as well. I mean, coaching the fundamentals if the fundamentals are there, I can, on my own time, maybe like even today, go out and shoot some hoops.
T.J.:But it's on my own, you know, and it's less casual. The coach is not there lording over you, you know, dribble faster, you know, whatever it is that the technique may may be. But, yeah, I think that I think that we can get burned out and I I think you're right. There are diminishing returns in sports and gosh, in, well in many things. Speaking of diminishing returns, talk about a little bit about the rush of serving 2 congregations in that mad dash, you know, from 1 church to the other on Sunday morning.
T.J.:So you're in high gear.
Rian:Yeah. Sunday so so Sunday morning you know, we just moved. And so we actually live closer now to the smaller church that's out in Bethesda. A beautiful country, by the way. I I don't know if people know much about the area that I'm in, but the area that I'm in has a lot of leaks with a lot of, with a lot of, like, Cumberland Presbyterian, you know, patriarchs and matriarchs and stuff.
Rian:I mean, we, the story I've gotten, I don't know if this is true or not, so don't pull me to this, but is that Hubert Morrow either preached his first sermon or one of his first sermons at this little church out in the country out there at Bethesda. And so this area that we're in right here, but, anyway, I don't know if this is first one or or one of his first ones. But, so I used to live in Batesville, and so I would have to drive out there to for that service and then come back, to the service here. But now I live, like, 7, 8 miles away from the small church. And so I basically leave my house.
Rian:Yeah. I leave my house, you know, try to get over there and and then make sure I'm in the on time for that. The, we we start at 9:30, and I try to wrap up at 10:15 and there's been probably less than 5 times I've gone over to, like, 10:25. Mhmm. And but, you know, you can't you can't play around with that very much.
Rian:And there's actually a family that I pick up on my way from that church to the other church. Okay. So I live, like, just, like, like, quarter mile down the road from the smaller church. So I'll take the church van from Faith Oakwell, and I'll usually drive in Saturday night, swap out vehicles, get that church van so I can pick up this other family after we finish that morning service, and we we come on. And I get here about 10:50, and, we have a worship team here at Faith Hopewell.
Rian:Blessed to have a really good worship team. My son's on that and some other, people on it as well. And they we do a little free worship music. We'll usually start about 10:50 or 10:55 with free worship music. And sometimes I play with them and, sometimes I don't.
Rian:But, because I also play with the worship team quite a bit. But a lot of times, yeah, they're already playing. I come in and they're already playing and stuff. And it's all it's all good. It's we've settled into the rhythm, but I know I know that I don't have time to do much else.
Rian:I gotta get out of I gotta get out of New Hope, get in the church van, pick up the family, and we gotta get here and get started.
T.J.:So Alright. So we're gonna come back to, later in our conversation about rest and diminishing returns, you know, in terms of being example to your players and your team. And that's me picking on you a little bit, but also being serious.
Rian:No. It's a well, you know, it's a big challenge for me. It's a big challenge for me.
T.J.:But, we'll come back to that later. I do wanna ask you, so with that rush between the 2 congregations, impacts your sermon preparation. And if not your preparation, then certainly your delivery. So how does that shape your message in terms of being concise, tight, you know, on point?
Rian:Well, I I think it goes back and forth. I don't know if I can tell if you cut out there for a second. I think it goes back and forth. So I will say this is that, you know, here lately at Faith, you know, I probably have some complaints that I've been trying that I've been doing a little bit longer. We have a lot going on in the church at Faith Hopewell.
Rian:So a lot of times I won't actually get started on the sermon, you know, until 11:40. Mhmm. If that's the case, you know, if it could go 12:05 or, you know, 12:10. I try to keep it I try to keep it 25, and I usually do pretty good with that, but sometimes I don't. I will tell you this is that I I typically preach the same text.
Rian:Okay? I've typically prepared the same sermon for both churches. Mhmm. The sermon typically ends up being completely not completely different, but the sermon ends up being 40% different. And a lot of that's just the context that I'm delivering it.
Rian:And, you know, so I'm not really a script reader. I will write a sermon out a lot of times. Typically, I will either write a sermon or I will write a pretty detailed outline Mhmm. Okay, of what I'm doing. But it doesn't mean that when I get up there to preach that that's necessarily what I do.
Rian:And so a lot of times the context at the smaller church will, will lead us in a little bit different direction. You know, they're in a different place than than my church at Faith Oak Willis. Sometimes the needs or sometimes the, you know, sometimes what's going on in the church is very different. Mhmm. And and so one church may be dealing with the loss of somebody.
Rian:And I may look at that sermon, I go, this isn't the week for this church. They don't this is not this is not appropriate for this week. And so that week, I'll usually you know, it will change and do something different. But, yeah, if you listen to our if you were to attend the smaller church, New Hope and, to hear the sermon there and then follow-up and listen to me from the other sermon, which I actually have some people that do. So I have some members at New Hope that listen to me in the morning Mhmm.
Rian:And then they will listen to my the sermon again, and I'm sure they they think, hey, that's not what he preached us. And I hope they don't feel like it's better. I don't know. I don't know if you went to both of them. I don't know which one people would feel like was better.
Rian:I will say this though that sometimes faith does benefit from me having already preached the sermon at New Hope. Because there's just some things sometimes that I get into, I'm like, ah, that took too long. I need I need to I need to trim that back.
T.J.:I follow a similar format as you. I don't preach, twice in the same Sunday, but I have in the past. And I needed that manuscript or, you know, well thought out thoughts, so to speak. You know, it keep me on track. But even though that it's there in writing, I still delineate from it, you know, depending on where I'm at or reading the room or the attention of of the congregation.
T.J.:And so, I need it, but I'm not, like, beholden to it a 100%. And then, you know, some you know, you have that 20, 25 minutes, that drive in between the 2. And whether we do it consciously or unconsciously, you're kind of like, okay, I'm gonna change this. As you mentioned earlier, the story that I told could be told in 3 minutes instead of 7. You know, just get to get to that aspect or I'm gonna read more of the biblical text because in the first service, there wasn't enough context, you know, and I needed to add and I have to go back and kind of add to it.
T.J.:Yeah. So at least for me, the the sermon is always in flux and I don't mean that in a negative way, but I mean it's always being shaped. It's a living document in a way and I can go back to it in 3 months or 3 years and go, wow. Okay. I would never preach that again.
Rian:Have you ever preached a sermon? So I I I kept for a long time, and I still keep most of my sermons on Google Docs or something, but I had a series of notebooks, you know, where I kept my sermons. And like I said, you go back and preach one that that at the time was really well received. Mhmm. And people, you know, I mean, you can tell.
Rian:I mean, you can tell sometimes, you know, You've seen the meme where the guy's like, man, I've preached a great sermon, and nobody liked it. And I preached a terrible one, and everybody said how great it was. I have no idea what I'm doing. You've seen that. Okay.
Rian:Like, I feel like that sometimes, but I but I but I preach something that before that was like, man, that was well received, and people were talking about it. It's conversation. And so a few years later, because I've been here for 10 years now. And so I've preached this before. Right?
Rian:And I'll go back and I'll look it up and I'll find it. And I'll find the text in front of me. I think, what was I saying? I don't even know. Like like at this moment, you know, like at this moment, looking at those texts and and, you know, I see what I was saying.
Rian:I'm not saying I was wrong, but I look at it and I go, well, I could it's telling my Internet state connection's unstable, so let me know if you can hear me.
T.J.:Yeah. It it it's broken up a couple times.
Rian:I wouldn't preach that again. Okay. I would never preach that again. I'm here at the church. I felt like that was probably my best option.
Rian:Where I live out in Cushman. Okay? And we I mean, like, I'm out there. K. I'm out there.
Rian:It's 25 minutes from Batesville. Alright. I mean, we have we have bears. Okay? We had bears and coyotes and rumors of mountain lion, you know, department of wildlife and games says we don't have any, but everybody says we have them.
Rian:And, you know, I mean, it's it's pretty wild country. It's right right getting into the foothill of the Ozark Mountains. So Alright. My Internet there sometimes just shuts down. So I thought, well, I'll come into church.
Rian:That'll be that'll be better, but but if you I will say but, no, just talking about the stern thing, like, you know, there's definitely times I go back and I say, I can't use that again. Like, it was great for that moment. And it worked really well for that moment, but even using the same text, like we've just got to, we've got to go to where the text leads us today. And I think that's one of the neat things about scripture, right? Is that how you do the study, the context of the original text stays the same, the Greek stays the same, the Hebrews stays the same.
Rian:All of that stays the same, but then sometimes how it how it hits in your situation where you are is just it's totally different, totally unexpected.
T.J.:Yeah. I think it also shows where we are in our study and in our preparation, in our personal lives and in our callings. When we worked on a sermon and delivered a sermon 3 years ago, we have certainly changed. We've aged, you know, maybe our our children have gotten older, our life circumstances have changed, and you go back and sermons in some ways can almost be like a diary. I'm going and sometimes I don't recognize where I was.
T.J.:I just know that, woah, this content was bad. Those poor folks had to suffer through this manuscript that I'm looking over again, revisiting. Yeah. But it's also been a good window as well, where I was like, wow, I didn't remember it being it clicked, you know. And for me, it those clicks are few and far between in in sermon delivery study and delivery.
T.J.:And I like using the baseball analogy. I struck out this Sunday. Well, maybe that was a single, but I never hit home runs. And home runs are judged not on necessarily the the response of the listeners, but it's more of like how it flowed and how it moved me. I like it when the sermons have actually changed me in the process.
T.J.:I now, through the study, I look at that biblical text differently through the preparation of the sermon. How inadequate I feel at times in, serving the church in that capacity for sure. You know? What am I doing up here? You know?
Rian:Yeah. I think I think that the filling of inadequacy is something that that I've struggled with a lot in ministry. Mhmm. You know, the you kind of you know, you you know what your struggles are. You know, know your deficiencies.
Rian:And, you know, you're up there maybe preaching and you're looking at however many people are there that Sunday, and they're all looking back at you. Right? And they're only looking at 1 person. You're looking at 60 to a 100 or 200, whatever you serve. I don't serve that.
Rian:You know, I serve, about 15 to 20 at the smaller church. And then here at faith, we, you know, we run between 6085 or something like that. Mhmm. But that's a lot of different opinions that are being projected back at you, right? I mean, that's a lot to take in when you're given this, you know, and and, you know, so you're doing that.
Rian:So you try not to dwell on that, but but at the same rate, you know, definitely kinda fill your, because because I do think that something that's been hard for me to get my mind around is that is that I am a vessel. And, it's been hard for me to to I don't wanna say accept that, but but to be comfortable with that, that that I that I'm just a vessel that's being used at that point. And that's humbling. It's humbling, but it's also sometimes for me has been liberating. Mhmm.
Rian:Is that is that I don't necessarily have to be a perfect vessel to accomplish what god's trying to do with me at that point. So
T.J.:I think of that more and very intentionally in the actual preparation and study, because if I allow myself to do it on during that time of worship, I think it would rattle me. Mhmm. But in my preparation, I'll look at it and I'll be like, and especially if it's in a place that you're actually serving, you kinda know where people are the longer that you're there and what their walks are, maybe what they're currently facing or have faced. And then I think that influences how will how will Mary hear this biblical text or this story or this analogy that I share. And so, for me, I think those measurements are done in the preparation.
T.J.:I'm not saying that it influences, but it certainly informs what what the manuscript or the notes are going to say. Because my ultimate goal is to be able to share the good news for the people to be impacted by it and actually changed and, you know, transformed from week to week to week.
Rian:Well, you know, when you wrap your, and most ministers I've talked to, share this commonality, but, you know, you wrap your preparation prayer. And, and and and I for me, I'm I'm so dependent upon the directions that I take, in a scripture because there are different directions that you can take with with scripture, different things to unpack, different, you know, points to make and things like that. And I'm so dependent on being led by the spirit in that preparation. Mhmm. And, when I've listened to the spirit, it's been better.
Rian:And when I've not, sometimes it's it's not. And that's that that's a that's a fact. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, how far back does your life go in terms of the Christian faith? Did you come up in the family that you went to church, as a child?
Rian:Yeah. I did. And, I'm gonna kinda take this opportunity to to share my journey into the CP church, if that's okay.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Rian:So growing up, I grew up, my dad was a preacher, and he was, he had come out of the assembly god tradition. But but growing up, we were a nondenominational, house church, actually, and about 20, 25 people that attended. So I I grew up in a very nontraditional church setting.
T.J.:Okay.
Rian:Things were more
T.J.:Did you worship in in your home, your family home?
Rian:We did. Wow. We did. Sunday mornings. Sunday this is what Sunday morning kinda looked like for me.
Rian:About 8 AM, 7:30, 8 AM, I'd hear mom and dad out there working. They'd be cleaning the living room floor, sweeping, moppings. One of my jobs was to set up chairs. We had some folding chairs. We'd set up the folding chairs.
Rian:We had a piano in the house. Everybody started coming in. Of course, you fight over the, you fight over the choice seats, which were like the love seat, the couch, and the you know? Because you don't because the last thing you wanna be is to be stuck in one of the metal folding chairs, you know, for a while. And but there were some ladies in the church, who had like, they had dibs on some of the seats.
Rian:Right? So there was a lady that sat, like, left side of the couch. She didn't touch that one. That was that was miss Tatum's spot. And then there was another, like you know?
Rian:But there were about 2 or 3 spots that if you could get in there and get them, they'd let you as a kid keep them. Otherwise, you ended up in the middle chairs. And it was kind of a nontraditional orthodox teaching. I mean, it wasn't anything no. But it was kind of just an you know, you're seeing a lot of these pop up now as house church type settings.
Rian:And so that's what I grew up in. And I really didn't you know, I I attended a a Methodist youth group and, you know, so I I, made my professional faith except for Christ about 8 years old and was baptized in the Piney River out there outside of Centerville, Tennessee. I don't know if you know anything about that. So so that was the church I I grew up in. Whenever some kinda talk about my journey into the CP church.
Rian:And my journey into the CP church, I tell people, was was largely mercenary. Okay? So and and and it comes in several different stages, but so Ron, my brother Ron, a lot of people in the CP church know Ron.
T.J.:And and just for clarification for those who don't, so Ron is your older brother. Do you have other siblings?
Rian:I do. I have 3 brothers.
T.J.:Okay.
Rian:And and there's a big wide age range. So so my oldest brother is, like, 20 something years older than I am. Okay. And then Ron and I kinda grew up together, but he's still about 6 years older than I am. My other 2 brothers were out of the house.
Rian:That's Randall and Roger. But, anyway, I, so Ron, whenever I was in 7th grade and basketball has always been interwoven into our family. Right? And we were we are a basketball family.
T.J.:Alright. So god first, church, family
Rian:And then family basketball. And basketball was woven into our fam basketball was what we did together as a family. Mhmm. Does that make sense? Like, it was it you couldn't separate basketball from our family more than you could basketball and thanksgiving meal.
Rian:Yeah. Basketball was what we did together. Okay? So it was interwoven into our family dynamics. And so Ron was a really good player.
Rian:And, Ron had an opportunity out of high school, to attend Bethel, which, of course, was a Cumberland Presbyterian School. That was really the first my first introduction to, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. He He was
T.J.:also Had your family even heard of Bethel it was a college then, Bethel College.
Rian:It was. And so we had actually attended I do remember attending a game there when I was about 8 or 9 because a friend of ours from Missouri was playing for what's now line college.
T.J.:And
Rian:they were playing against Bethel college. It's the only time we've ever been there. Bethel was not on our radar at all. Ron ends up at Bethel playing basketball at Bethel. And coincidentally, he also and and he had dated Amy a little bit in high school, but he he starts dating Amy pretty seriously in college.
Rian:And she just happens to attend a little Kremlin Presbyterian Church called Swan Creek Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Some people may know where that is. It's right outside of Centerville. And, you know, it was a really small church.
T.J.:Okay. So so Ron and Amy, Ron, your older brother, they knew each other. They're married now. Right?
Rian:Right. And they dated in high school.
T.J.:So So they knew each other from school. Alright. So the 22 of them go out to Bethel College. And this is setting up the stage I'm trying to bring folks up who may not know you. This is setting up the stage of how you got connected to Yes.
T.J.:Bethel and then Cumberland Presbyterian. Alright. Go ahead.
Rian:Alright. Yeah. So connecting it altogether. So, anyway, so, Ron, so so I kinda you know, I start going up and attending Bethel, not attending school there. I go up to visit.
Rian:Mhmm. So I'm in, like, 7th through 10th grade. I would go up and it'd be spring break for me, and I'd go up and stay 3, 4 days with Ron. Or it'd be fall break, and I'd go stay a couple days with Ron. And so I kinda got familiar and comfortable with Bethel.
Rian:And plus, obviously, we're going, you know, 2 nights a week. We're driving to watch Bethel play. When I tell you basketball was what we did, you know, I'm I might play a junior high game on Monday. On Tuesday, we'd leave and go watch Ron at Christian Brothers. I play a junior high game on Thursday.
Rian:On Friday, we'd leave or whatever days they were playing, we'd leave and go watch Ron play Union at Bethel. Okay. That's what we did.
T.J.:And and those aren't you know, for those who may not know Middle Tennessee area and West Tennessee area, those aren't necessarily short drives.
Rian:No. No. No. We're looking like 2 hour drives. Pick me up as soon as practice ended for basketball.
Rian:We're leaving. We get there, like, 5 minutes left for the girls' game. We'll watch Ron play. And then we're driving 2 hours back that night so I can be at school the next morning. Yeah.
Rian:So we could go through all this, we did that for several years. Well, of course, Ron and Amy are dating and stuff like that. Well, I get up to about my junior year of high school, and I think it was my junior year. And so I play a little bit of music. I know just enough to be dangerous.
Rian:And yeah. Yeah. People don't like to play with me. I'm best on my own. Like, sometimes my rhythm kinda heads off in its own direction and stuff like that.
Rian:My son is much, much better than I have. Okay? But I had a keyboard. I've got the keyboard for Christmas a couple of years earlier. This is like just one of those it was a nice keyboard to have, like, personally, but it was a, you know, it was kinda one of those it was a RadioShack, you know, not like a Korg or a Yamaha or anything like studio or concert.
Rian:It was it was a little keyboard. And the Swan Creek Cumberland Presbyterian Church needed somebody to play the keyboard for their services. They didn't have any music. Okay? So Amy knew that I was had started playing the keyboard.
Rian:And so her dad was, I think, an elder at the church. You know, her family was connected with the church, and they asked if I would be interested in coming to play the keyboard at the Swan Creek Common Presbyterian Church. And listen, this was huge. They were gonna pay me $35 a Sunday to do it. Alright.
Rian:And you're a
T.J.:junior in high school?
Rian:I'm a junior in high school. Alright. Junior in high school. And I played basketball. You know, when you're playing high school sports, like, it's hard to get a job and stuff like that.
Rian:And so I worked on Saturdays for my brother, Roger, at the Dairy Queen, and I started going on Sundays, and I would go play the keyboard at 1 creek, coming Presbyterian Church. And and, you know, and I missed my home church services. Like like, the timing just, you know, didn't like so that was that was basically where I went to church for my junior and senior year.
T.J.:You went from a metal folding chair standing up in your own living room for worship to a nice little cushioned, piano stool?
Rian:Well, I don't know exactly what it was. I don't remember. I think I had to bring my own stool if I remember right, but there was a stool there.
T.J.:Okay.
Rian:But I don't know if you've ever been to the Swan Creek Common Presbyterian Church. These people were just they were beautiful people, but there was only about 8 or 10 of them. And it was a very small church, and it's an it's an old country church. Like, you're you know? So it it was a very, yeah, completely different environment for me transitioning from, like, you know, kind of a, we were non we were my my parents' church was a a nondenominational, but definitely charismatic type worship service to this out in the country, 10 people.
Rian:And and the pastor at the time, I don't remember there was a order of pastors. I remember Terry Kinnaman was one of them. Heflin. Reverend Heflin was one. There was a list of guys that, you know, that, that were there.
Rian:But but one of the pastors wanted like, he had a very structured service, and he was picking hymns to go with his sermon. Okay? I didn't know these hymns, and I was not very good anyway. Okay? My mom was having to, like, go with me and map out the chords.
Rian:And and I would I would spend all week practicing to go in there on Sunday to play. And I mean, I was very much beginner. Okay. Very much beginner. And so finally finally, I talked to him and he said, hey, I don't remember which which if it was if it was reverend Kenneman or or reverend, but they said, Hey, why don't you just pick out the helps?
Rian:Pick out the ones you can play. Okay. And so so I subjected the people of Swan Creek, Cumberland Presbyterian Church to, a rough 2 years of music. But but but that was my so that was kind of my introduction into the CP church. That was the 1st CP church service I had ever attended.
Rian:Mhmm. Was was there for those 2 years. So then I get of course, I get out of that, playing basketball, you know, hoping to pay for college with basketball. And this was kinda during the time, like, we talked that Bethel was going through a lot of ups and downs. They'd actually cut out scholarships for basketball for 2 or 3 years, but my class was the 1st class they're gonna do, like, big scholarships worth again.
T.J.:Okay.
Rian:And, and so Bethel was really where I wanted to go because I was comfortable with it. I've been there with Ron, but but not for common Presbyterian reasons. Okay? Just primarily that's where he was and other people and stuff. And, so things worked out.
Rian:We're coming out of my senior year. I was offered a scholarship at Bethel. And so I took it. And so as I say, my connection with the CP church was was largely mercenary. We started with, you know, being being offered a job, like, basically as a high school kid to play for a CP church, being offered a scholarship to go to a Kremlin Presbyterian School, attended Bethel, made friends with a lot of Kremlin Presbyterians, still never or at that point, I would never consider myself a CP.
Rian:I was friends with some, made friends with some more fraternity. I joined phi delta sigma. And so there was that was a lot of current presbyterians there, but still not current presbyterian. You know, love chap, love I mean, there was a lot of people I loved that did the church Mhmm. And got out, actually was out and had finished my bachelor's and had finished my master's and was moving over to Dyersburg to work in the steel industry.
Rian:And I was gonna work over in the steel industry. And I've been wrestling for a long time with the call of ministry and had actually accepted the call of the ministry when I was, like, 13 and then promptly spent the next decade of my life, like, just absolutely saying no way. No way. No way. Not gonna do it.
Rian:Not gonna do it. Not gonna do it. And so but at but at this point, I've gotten a little bit better music, not a lot better, but that was a little bit better. And And and so I was moving out to Dyersburg and a friend of Michelle's that's my wife, Michelle. I met her at Bethel.
Rian:Okay. And he comes up to her or or her friend's boyfriend, and that was Jacob Harwell and Sam Harwell, and they were in the CP church. I believe Sam still pastors the CP church. And they said, hey, you know, my brother's church is looking for somebody to do music. He said, you're moving out to Dyersburg, would you be willing to do it?
Rian:And so I've been wrestling with call to ministry, and I thought, well, maybe this will kinda get me off the hook. Okay? Like, I'll if I go do music at this church, maybe I'll it'll get me off the hook. Mhmm. And,
T.J.:And and the this struggle is all internal. Like
Rian:Oh, internal. Yeah. Okay. I haven't even told Michelle at any point that I haven't even wrestled the call to ministry. Okay?
Rian:And so I thought, well, I'm thinking, well, maybe this will get me off the hook. So I I do it. I go out there and try out, so to speak. And they like they like to tell the story. It's the church.
Rian:So just once again, it happened to be a CP church. And they like to tell the story because I should go out there, and they and I've got this whole thing marked up. I'm gonna play the piano and, you know, dumb me, it's it's it's a song written with, like, a lot of minors and stuff. And I'm gonna play the piano, and I'm gonna do this really, like, kinda emphatic thing. I'm gonna play, like, one chord and go into the song.
Rian:Right? So so, anyway, so I play my one chord, and the immediate thing that I realized is that this piano that I'm playing on has not been been has could not have been tuned in, like, the last 5 years. I don't know how long it's been, but it was like it was way out of 10. And I think, oh, man. I got a problem.
Rian:Because I don't even recognize what was just played. Okay? And I'm not that good anyway. Alright? So I'm like, I've got so I look over across, and I've got this old organ sitting over.
Rian:I've never played an organ, but I kinda know in theory what you do. Mhmm. And so I go over and I finish my trial on the organ. I just push the pedal down and play the chords. And, but they they asked me back after a few months.
Rian:And,
T.J.:they needed 90 days to think about it.
Rian:Yeah. That was that's kind of an inside joke between us and them. They I I assumed they didn't want me back, so I just left. Mhmm. They assumed I was coming back, so they didn't they, you know, after several weeks, like, they called me.
Rian:They're like, hey. You're not coming back. And I was like, I didn't think y'all wanted me back. Okay. So like, so about 2 months have passed.
Rian:Okay. But so I started working at this this another once again, started working at the CP church. And it was while I was there that I accepted the call to the ministry. And and so whenever I did that, the pastor who was there, I said the pastor who stayed in supply there, a guy named Chris Marks, he he asked me. He said, well, what do you wanna do?
Rian:He said, you know, he would because he was not a common Presbyterian. He just worked a lot at the CP church, but he was running a baptist tradition. He said he said, you need to decide what you wanna do. Do you wanna be a, you know, do you wanna preach in the Kremlin Presbyterian church or or or what do you wanna do something else? And so I spent quite a bit of time going and at that point, really going and looking at the confession of faith and saying, okay, if I'm gonna if I'm gonna be a candidate for the ministry of the CP church, then I need to know that I'm comfortable with the doctrines of the CP church.
Rian:Mhmm. And so that was really my first time dive in to this confession of faith and, see if, you know, I was comfortable with it. But yeah. So, mercenary, let me add a little something to this. I don't think it's kinda rambled.
Rian:But so after all of that, of course, you know, my family, a lot of people in the in the, you know, no Kremlin Presbyterian that I know. Right? Except for my my brother, Ron, you know, being, you know, being married in the city church and stuff. So one day, I was talking with a cousin, and he said, well, how'd you get up in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church anyway? And he said that was you know, he said that's a lot different than than, you know, your dad and and people, stuff like that.
Rian:I was like, well and I kinda told the story. But what I didn't realize is this. Okay? And this kinda brings it all back to me, is that I had always heard the church that my dad attended as a kid, and I'd always just heard the first part of it, but they never they never go to the full deal. And the so the church that my dad attended up until the point where he started preaching on his own, but this was our home this was my grandmother's home church.
Rian:This was the church she always, went to. Was the Elk Creek Conant Presbyterian Church right outside of West Plains. And I had just always heard it described as Elk Creek. Like my aunts and people would say, oh, yeah. You know, you know, we remember when we did this out of Elk Creek or we did this out of Elk Creek, but it was the Elk Creek Cumberland Presbyterian Church, that my mom that my grandmother was attended, my dad and all his siblings.
Rian:That's where they all accepted Christ. Mhmm. And and so in kind of a unexpected way, you know, even though I got here a lot differently, you know, the CPB church has definitely been part of my heritage even before I knew it was.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. How could you be influenced in something you didn't even know?
Rian:Mhmm.
T.J.:Well, let let's circle back to the earlier times of your life in terms of your profession of faith at 8, if you guys are worshiping you guys, as in your family, is worshiping in the home, you didn't have much of an option.
Rian:No. I so so this is where I really appreciate my dad and and kinda how he raised us. I never dad was yeah. I mean, I was definitely inundated in church. Okay?
Rian:When we weren't having church in our home, we were attending other churches. So we would a lot of times on Wednesday night, we'd go drop in at the Nazarene church or we drop in at the at the Baptist church or you know? So we attended a lot of different churches. Whenever I was growing up, I saw a lot of different traditions and and and things like that. I've never went to a CP's church, but I attended, you know, a lot of different churches.
Rian:We would attend revivals and things like that at different churches and things like that. And and while, certainly, I think the, like, the message of the gospel was preached nonstop. Right? I mean, you know, in in discipleship and stuff like that. One of the things I really appreciate is just kind of being in that environment and just marinate in it.
Rian:Okay? But one of the things about my dad was that dad dad and and he died when I I was 18. So I didn't really ever get to have these conversations as a, a mature adult with them. So you know, and I really regret that. I wish I'd been able to.
Rian:But looking back, what I see is that dad very much sort of let each one of us kind of develop in our own way Mhmm. With a guiding hand. You know what I mean? Like, there were things I was allowed to do and things I was not allowed to do. Mhmm.
Rian:When we went to church, I was expected to be there. But it was very much, you know, he kinda he kinda the way he guided, really, really to me, as I look back at it kinda showed the dependence on the holy spirit. There was I never remember like a pressure to accept Christ.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Rian:You know, there was never that that this, even that pressure, to it was like when I was a junior in high school, I was thinking about the this with my son the other day, he was pretty gifted musically and stuff. And I thought, how comfortable would I be like with him as a junior in high school, giving him permission to leave our home church and to go somewhere else and to serve. You know? And and so those were all things that that I really appreciate now, you know, seeing my dad kinda well, I know he was resolute in his, and I know, that he had concerns about me. And I know this because of a letter that we found sometime later.
Rian:But, you know, I know that he had concerns about me. I know he was concerned about all of his kids. Mhmm. But he never he he never really set on us with a demand of this is what you're gonna do.
T.J.:Right.
Rian:You know, each one of us was allowed to come to Christ in our own time to make that profession and and really to, I won't say, to participate as we wanted to, but to to kinda grow in it according to kinda where we were.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Rian:And and I think talking with my older brothers, they kinda bear witness to this with because they were adults, you know, whenever he passed away. And I think it was kinda the same with them. Like, he he always kinda was available, but but I don't think overbearing Mhmm. With them, even as adults and and maybe not being where he would have liked them to have been as adults. So
T.J.:What did your friends and fellow students think as you were growing up in high school of, one, you had basketball skills, but you also you didn't worship in these mainline Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, you know you know, worship was you didn't have to leave the house. Literally did not have to leave the house.
Rian:I've got a varied amount. Yeah. That's an interesting question. I've never been asked that one, but it's a good one. That's a really good question, actually.
Rian:That was the, so some thought it was awesome. Some people thought it was awesome. They were just like, oh man, that's awesome. I'll tell you I'll tell you a couple of funny stories in a second. Okay.
T.J.:Alright.
Rian:Some people thought it was awesome. I think some people thought we were in a cult. I think some people definitely thought we were in a cult. You did not have a lot of house churches back then. And the whole reason that we stayed in the house, and I remember this, the whole reason we stayed in the house, there was actually some people that that raised the question of, well, why don't we get a building?
Rian:And the thing that dad basically said was, look, you know, the the type of ministry that we're able to do with not having a billing expense, we couldn't do if we had a building expense. Some people thought we were rich. We were, you know, because they just assume like the pastor makes all this money. Dad made no money. Okay?
Rian:We we were very we were actually very, very poor. Mhmm. He worked in assortment of jobs. He worked doing stuff like mowing grass and sweeping off, parking lots for gas stations and, you know, and things like that. We were actually, you know, pretty low income, very low income.
Rian:Some people thought we were rich. Okay. Because of that, because he was a pastor, of course, getting all the money. Right? You know?
T.J.:That's the funniest thing you've said all day.
Rian:Yeah. Of course. He's getting all the money, but I think people look like really thought like, Hey, they're just like, they're taking an offering plate, man. They're getting it all. But, and then, like, some people were really, like, kinda suspicious, you know, of of things like that.
Rian:And, a few people attended and and the people that attended it really enjoyed it. Yeah. Because it was a completely different vibe. It was a completely different, atmosphere. It was relaxed.
Rian:Now I don't think it would be as strange now. Right? I don't think I think now people would be like, oh, yeah. You know? But back then, it was very kinda anti cultural thing to to to go to worship.
Rian:And, but I'll tell you a couple funny stories. So like I said, I know I know dad had to know I was doing this. Okay? So, like, I've told you, it's it's a, you know, it's a kind of a charismatic, nondenominational, but but definitely with Pentecostal roots and, you you know, and and they put it was called the house of prayer and they took that very seriously. Mhmm.
Rian:Okay. It's called the house of prayer. And they would go and on on Sunday nights was was just prayer. K. Sunday nights was just prayer.
Rian:And they might they would start praying and take prayer requests for 15 or 20 minutes and stuff, and I was required to be there. Like, I was there. I was I would have to sit in there, and I was there and stuff. And then at about, you know, 5 15 or 5 20, they'd start praying. K.
Rian:And so the way the tradition was was they'd all pray together. They then they'd pray out loud kinda, you know, just temporarily altogether and stuff. And you could tell, like, like, the prayer meeting would build. Right? It would build.
Rian:And it hit a point after about 15 minutes where, like, they were praying. Like, everybody was in it. And I would pray. Like, I would I will I I mean, I, you know, I would go in there and pray and stuff. I'm a 13 year old kid.
Rian:You know? It's hard for me to pray for an hour. And I would kind of after about 15 minutes is really start raising that crescendo. You know? And I'd kinda lift my eye up.
Rian:I'd look over at my best friend and kinda make eye contact. I give him a little head nod. And so whenever I was a kid, I'll, my brother we lived in a really neat place, there in Hickman County. We had a creek and we had woods. And but one of the coolest things about my house was that my older brother, after he bought a business and stuff, he built a basketball court for me and my brother.
Rian:And, so we kinda give a head nod or whatever kinda nod. We'd get up and tiptoe out. Right? We'd tiptoe out. And, we'd kinda go through the back door and we'd tiptoe out when we'd spend the next 30 minutes playing football or playing basketball or playing whatever.
Rian:We really thought we and then we'd, like, look at our watches, go back in, you know? And so we'd we'd tiptoe back in. We'd tiptoe back in and then we we'd kinda sit down quietly. And, and so then we'd wait and sure enough, about 5 minutes later, everybody start getting up, you know, I know they knew what we were doing. Like, like I know they knew what we were doing, but they, they didn't say anything to us about it.
Rian:And the other thing that would happen sometimes during our prayer meeting was you know? And this would typically happen, like, hang on, be praying, but everybody would kneel down to pray, you know, individually kinda pray. And if I was really tired, there was, like, 2 or 3 times I fell asleep. Okay? I fell asleep.
Rian:This happened a few times. And so everybody's praying, and I was praying, and I fell asleep in that position. And I woke up, and everybody else was sitting up looking at me. Okay. And they're crying while I'm still and I thought, man, I I said I said, hope they think that I was really, really, really getting into this.
Rian:But, I I'm very grateful for that church. They were, it it was an amazing place to to be mentored. And, and like I said, they just kinda they they just kinda let you soak in in the spirituality and soak in the teaching and soak in, you know, discipleship. And, you know, and there wasn't a lot of pressure. There wasn't because it was so informal, because it was a very, you know, there was not a lot of organization
T.J.:Yeah.
Rian:In the sense that dad was the pastor. If they had something that they wanted to do, they would vote on it as a church, but we didn't have a formal membership. Mhmm. There were no there were no members of the house of prayer. There were people who attended the house of prayer.
Rian:So you could attend you could be a member at First Baptist and be a member of the house of prayer. You know what I mean? If you were attending and you were part of it and one of the things I really appreciated was because they didn't have a building expense. And I and I saw them do this. There would be somebody that would run into tough economic times.
Rian:Somebody, you know, somebody in the community or somebody would really run into tough economic times. And I've seen that church of 15 people, 20 people take on their bills for a month and pay their bills for a month because they did not have their own bills that they had to pay. You know what I mean? So they were able to say, hey. We're gonna designate we're gonna pay their rent.
Rian:We're gonna pay their electricity. We're gonna pay their water, and we're gonna let them be on their feet. And I've and I've thought so many times, one of the things I've struggled with in churches with our massive infrastructure is how much of what we're raising goes to perpetuate ourselves, and and it becomes limited in ministry. And and so for me having witnessed it on the other side, that's been something I've struggled with sometimes. So but, yeah, it was it was a it was different.
Rian:It was definitely different. It definitely, I think, shaped who I am, while I'm and and people probably pick that up for me, like, while I'm definitely appreciative of the Kremlin Presbyterian, structure. Mhmm. Because I've seen the other side of that too. And I I won't go into that too, but I but after my dad died, I've seen what can happen in a church like that without leadership.
Rian:Mhmm. You know what I mean? Without structure, without rules, without, you know, things like that. And, but but I think people can probably pick that up from me. Like, I'm a little bit of a loose cannon.
Rian:I probably make people a little nervous. And and, yeah, part of it probably has to do with with with with my brain. Yep.
T.J.:I think there's a lot to be said in a living room setting or in a home setting. The way that things are arranged to worship, you know, is typically a circle.
Rian:You're exactly right.
T.J.:And in a more traditional environment, church wise, everybody is facing the same way. To look at your brother and sister in Christ in the eyes and or you're all yeah. To look at each other that way, I think it's harder to ignore the realities of of that community of faith, whether it's 15 or a 150, to look in the eye of somebody across the living room and to be in especially in prayer time, and to be able to hear of their need Mhmm. It it's difficult to ignore. You can't say, well, I wasn't there or I didn't hear it or no, I mean, we've chosen to participate or not.
T.J.:I think the the level of study and even allowing dialogue in in a sermon or a Bible study lends itself, because I imagine what you do 2 times on Sunday, there's only one person speaking. It's you. And in a living room setting, in a circle setting, to be able to go, wait, Ryan, could you say that again? I didn't hear it. Or could you go deeper?
T.J.:You you called it the soaking Was it soaking in the spirituality? There of being allowed to soak in. I think it's not only the scripture, but I think it's that community as well. Mhmm. And if you fall if you fall asleep, you can't hide apparently.
Rian:Yeah. You know, but I'll tell you this. Like, I'll tell you this. Like, I know I know those and and I know they were looking at us with wisdom Mhmm. You know, being older and understanding.
Rian:But, you know, I I really appreciate the the guidance of of those ladies. And primarily ladies. There wasn't there were not my dad and occasionally there'll be some other men in there, but I really appreciate the guidance of that that community. You mentioned a couple of things. You're exactly right.
Rian:We were set up in a circle. Even the middle folding chairs that we set up completed the circle. Mhmm. And, our living room was a multipurpose room, very small house. I live in the house.
Rian:Our house was less than a 1000 square feet. But the way dad had built it was basically it was basically 2 bedrooms and then one big open room. Okay. That was the living room, kitchen, and dining room. And so the chairs would kinda complete that circle.
Rian:And then dad, one of the things that dad was really good about was allowing dialogue during the sermon. Mhmm. He would even allow people to question him, to question his statement, to to not to challenge him in a disrespectful way, but to to you know? And so there I saw that. Like, growing up, I saw that.
Rian:I saw people disagree and say, wait a minute. What about this? What about this? And and then sometimes that would open up. And dad dad kinda referenced himself.
Rian:He he he kinda said in his later years, they saw himself as more of a teacher than a preacher. And and sometimes I I feel that way as well. But the the dialogue and that stuff I wanna tell you something else on on a less serious note. I wanna tell you where the struggle is, though. Okay?
Rian:Tell you where the struggle is. The struggle is when your mom's cooking fried chicken in in the kitchen while church is going on on Sunday. Alright? That's the struggle. It's it's when it's 12:15 and you smell that chicken frying in the oven or baking in the oven.
Rian:And you're like, oh. It was different. It was different, but it it was really it was good. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, let's talk about your calling into ministry. Ryan, why were you putting it off for so long?
Rian:You know, I saw I I tell you, I saw 1
T.J.:It sounds accusatory. I don't mean
Rian:it at that point. Percent. A 100%. It's accurate. It's accurate.
Rian:And and my son has actually just recently accepted the call in the ministry. Alright. And, he has he we're we're yet to send him we're sending the letter right now from the session to presbytery. So he's at the very beginning stages of it, but I'm really I'm really proud. Sorry.
Rian:My phone's going crazy over here. I'm really proud of him for doing that because I was not able to do that at that age. Mhmm. And I think that part of the reason
T.J.:He's gonna use that against you, by the way, if he listens to this.
Rian:Oh, yeah. He's he's he's, he he he does better than me in a lot of ways. But so I had seen a lot of church hurt. I had seen, I had heard one of the reasons we ended up in Tennessee was because of church hurt. My family was actually from West Plains from Missouri, and and my dad, like I said, was was a pastor and had had a pretty successful ministry.
Rian:I remember, growing up, he had a radio show. Oh, wow. That yeah. He had a radio show. This was a very good preacher.
Rian:Now I've heard people in our family say they, you know, they said they they're like, the rest of y'all are all whatever. They're like, you know, nobody we haven't heard anybody preach like your dad. Mhmm. And it's just you know, so he's a very good preacher. But he was also very he was very firm in what he believed.
Rian:And so sometimes sometimes that placed him at odds with people or or things like that. I had seen even in even in our house church, and it was it was a good thing. It was a wonderful thing, but I had seen some chart hurt. I'd seen, I'd seen what happened behind the curtains. Right?
Rian:I'd seen dad really hurt. I'd seen dad struggle. I'd seen these things. And then I mentioned also the joke that was being made earlier. People talking about us making a lot of money.
Rian:I knew the I knew the reality. I I knew we had no money. Okay? I knew we had no money. And when I tell you we had no money, I mean, we we were we were very poor.
Rian:And because dad was good with his hand, because they were resourceful, we kinda got around a lot of that. But but but, you know, I knew that. So I think like any kid, you know, I want I want success. Right? You know, so I'm gonna see some monetary success.
Rian:I wanna see I want to be, you know, I wanna be something else. And I would've probably done anything. I tell people this, and people kinda look at me like I'm I'm terrible. And I'm like, listen. It's just who I am.
Rian:And one of the things I've had to become more comfortable with is being who I am. But I'm just like, I'm telling you, I would have done anything other than preach. I would have been a rock caller with 2 hands 40 hours a week other than preach. And and so I didn't really have I I was very much a a gentleman in this. I mean, I told you I I was I I was reluctant in doing this.
Rian:Went through high school, I had a lot of success with sports and things like that. I was pretty good at book studies and I thought I can go do something, I can be a lawyer. I can be all these different things I can go do. And even in college, I would see friends. I would I would people that were ministerial candidates and things like that, and I would have like a little gnawing in my stomach, like, that's what you're supposed to do.
Rian:No. That's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to be that's who you you're supposed to be one of them. And, man, I just, like, just not trying to do anything other than that. I fought it, and and my dad died when I was 18.
Rian:And that was a big part of my resistance after that too. And I was very angry with God because he was, and I still say this, one of the most faithful people I've ever seen. And so I I was angry, during my college years, and, and I avoided it. I I didn't attend church. I I I 1st couple years, I just didn't hardly attend church at all and probably did not have a great witness at all.
Rian:I know I didn't have a great witness, at all, and I had a lot of anger. And people that played with me during that time can testify to that that, you know, I had a pretty pretty violent temper and and really struggled.
T.J.:All those seem like, justifiable reasons not to get into ministry, growing up with financial strain, church hurt, experienced by your family, and angry angry at God for the death of a family member. Those are all real reasons. So Yeah. It didn't seem like much to ponder there. Reasons not
Rian:to mention It was hard, but but at the same rate, I still felt the call. Yeah. And and the way I dealt with it was fight back hard. And I would just fight back. And and that's always been my personality.
Rian:I'm I'm probably more you know? And and so I'm just fighting. And so I got into my senior year, and really there was a a series of things that even really helped get me back in a place where I was in a in a better relationship with God. And there was a series of people that kinda encountered my wife being one of them, who who caused me to kinda help you back into church. And that's another story I won't tell here.
Rian:But they anyway, they she can tell you privately, but it was, it was her witness and caused kinda caused him to get back in church. A friend of mine, you know, I was going through just all these ups and downs emotionally and just really struggling. And you know, there was one night in a CC campus crusades for Christ meeting, that, you know, BJ Mathis. And I I didn't know BJ very well. I've never really I've talked to him about this, but I just showed up.
Rian:Like, I didn't really wanna be there. Like, I just kinda showed up. And, but, you know, wrestling with this call to ministry, wrestling with this call to to return, you know, to kinda to really live out our faith and stuff and while dealing with a lot of lot of anger and a lot of things like that. And and I remember, you know, I was just kinda sitting over there and BJ came up to me. He's like, hey.
Rian:You know? We didn't know each other. And then I'm this big dude. I've never asked BJ. I mean, we did.
Rian:I mean, but I'm like this big dude. Like, I'm I'm you know, at this point in my college career, I'm benching like £400, and you know, PJ. You know what I mean? And it's just like and he comes up to me. He's like, hey, man.
Rian:He said, like, I feel led to pray for you. And and that for me was like this just incredibly, like, healing moment. Does that make sense? Like, it was like I was like, man. You know what I mean?
Rian:And and that was like a really god moment. I've always felt like that was a really pivotal time in my in my journey. And so I'll and I'll tell you this last point because I'm rambling with all this. So get married, and like I said, I'm wrestling with the call of ministry. I don't wanna do it.
Rian:I do not wanna do it. And I'm doing this music thing instead and all this stuff. And and and I'm filling this call. I won't do it. It's making me restless.
Rian:It's making me hard to get along with. You know what I mean? And I'm I I I I don't wanna talk to Michelle about it because poor Michelle, she ended up she thought she was she thought she was getting engaged to a lawyer, and they think, you know, she's, like, married to a college basketball coach. And you know what I mean? All this stuff.
Rian:Right? Yeah. And one day I was sleeping, and I was taking a nap, and, I was was, I was sleeping. It was kind of in that state where you're where you're asleep, but I guess you can still hear things. And and I I felt this this bill, and this may not be appropriate for the show or for the podcast, but it's my it's my story.
Rian:I felt this sensation upon me. I've been wrestling so hard for for so many years, and I felt my death. Like, I felt I don't know if you could be more aware of your own death than I was in that moment whenever I was sleeping. And I won't say I heard an auditory voice, but I heard some type of voice that basically said, if you're not gonna do what I've called you to do, then then, you know, what what why why are am I gonna let you live? What use do I have for you?
Rian:And I woke up, and I was like, that's it. Like, I'm I've gotta accept the call history. I've gotta talk to Michelle. I've gotta do this. And it was the most, and I tell I've and I'll tell that people story to a lot of people, but it was it was real.
Rian:I I was a 100% aware at that time that god's patience and god's mercy for my disobedience had run its course Mhmm. And that he was giving me one final warning. And so I woke up and I talked to Michelle and she was like, okay. And I was like, oh, you know what I mean? She's like, it's like, that's what God's telling you to do.
T.J.:You expected more drama.
Rian:I expected a lot more drama. I expected a lot more everything. And, you know, and so that kinda started me. And that was whenever I once again, I like I said, at 13, I I acknowledged and accepted the call, so to speak. And I spent the next 13 years of my life running from it.
Rian:And, yeah. And so that's that's that's how I ended up.
T.J.:So when you awoke from that dream or vision, what was the emotion that you felt? Was it fear, dread, or was it overwhelming joy? Here I am. My question's my question's putting words in your head, but, yeah, what were you experiencing? That
Rian:initial reaction. Yeah. So my initial reaction was was that point where where you've got something to do, and you just know you're gonna do it. Mhmm. That makes sense?
Rian:Like, all the options of maneuvering and delaying and all of this stuff, it was it was as absolute as knowing that I was going to the fridge to get a cup of water.
T.J.:Okay.
Rian:Does that make sense? Like, it was it was just like, this is what's gonna happen. This is what's gonna happen. And and so for me, there wasn't I didn't really feel in that moment like a bitterness about it or angry about it, I'm being forced into it or anything like that. Like it was just like in a way it was almost like because a lot of my wrestling was whether I was really supposed to or not.
Rian:Mhmm. It was like there was this there was this variance between I'm not gonna do it and, well, I'm not really supposed to do it, You know what I mean? There was kind of this this mind game that I was playing with myself. And so in this moment and I don't advise any person who's wrestling with call the ministry to get to that point. Like, that is not my life could have been so much easier and so much better and my ministry so much better.
Rian:You know what I mean? Like, there's so many things that could have been so much better. But but there was just a determination. Like, it was a determination that had been determined for me, if that makes sense. I felt a little bit like Paul.
Rian:Mhmm. Not not but just like he's like, yeah, I can't not preach. Like, I don't have a choice. Does that make sense?
T.J.:Yeah.
Rian:It's like it's like it was a determination and it kinda be determined for me, that I was gonna have to do that. And but there was also a there was also some fear. Like a like a there was also like this woah. What what were you
T.J.:afraid of?
Rian:I mean, just I was very aware of my death. I mean, it felt real. Like, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, that was there it was almost the spirit of, like it was like this moan of, like, woah. Like, I just like like, this I don't know.
Rian:Just my eyes opened. Like, man, I was playing games with God, and I almost almost just I just almost yeah. With that. And that was a so there was a holy terror. If you've heard that use, there was a holy terror there.
Rian:Yeah. In that moment with that, but there was also a determination and and a certain sense of relief. Because once that was like like, once I finally did that, then it was just like a a load off of my back because I've been carrying that for so many years.
T.J.:So what did this do to the rest of your life? Like, where are you in your vocation and your family? Did you have children at that time?
Rian:I did. I we I had a we had a Colby. At that point, I was coaching at Mid Continent. I was coaching the college team up in in Kentucky. And so then, of course, I was like, well, what am I gonna do now?
Rian:And our or West Tennessee Presbyterian didn't leave me a lot of choices. They said you're going to seminary. So it worked out for me to go to seminary. And and what I was doing at the time was it was amenable to it because I was able to build my own schedule. And so it worked out like I just say, hey.
Rian:I'm not coming on Monday until 5 o'clock. And I'd go to seminary and I'd take 2 classes the whole semester on Monday. You know? And then I'd come in and run practice at 5 o'clock on Monday night or something like that. So it was actually the perfect, job to have, you know, coaching the college.
Rian:I went from Mid Continent. I coached at Dyersburg State for 6 years.
T.J.:Okay.
Rian:And so those were the perfect kind of situations for me to to coach in and and go through seminary. When I finished up, I was finishing up with west of the sea, and we got the call from here in Arkansas and felt like we were led to come out here. And so for a few years, I got completely out of coaching. So for about 4 years, it was just a completely full time in the ministry. And and for me, that that kind of felt incomplete.
Rian:And I didn't feel like I was I I felt like that I felt like there was a shoe that I wasn't wearing. And, and and so that was, you know, so that was a that was a challenge, like figuring, okay, what am I gonna do and things like that. And so went back by vocational and faith was really good here. And I told them then like, yeah, if this isn't a good situation for y'all, I'll help y'all find somebody else. You know what I mean?
Rian:Like like, you know, this is what I feel like I'm supposed to do is buy vocational, with with coaching. Because I feel like the coaching aspect of it is definitely a part of who I am. It's kinda the only thing that I bring people outside of preaching. Does that make sense? Like, I can't fix your car.
Rian:I can't rewire your house. I can mow your lawn, and I can teach you how to play basketball. Like, that's all I got. Like, that's my you know what I mean? Like, that's all I can bring you.
Rian:You know what I mean? There's not, like, a lot of other stuff, you know, that I can that I'm that I'm serving the community in or doing that type of thing yet. Mhmm. And, you know, so it was an aspect of of of who I am. But, you know, right now and then and then going back and working in the school, it happened right at the edge of COVID.
Rian:And I think that was actually pretty good, like, a kind of a blessing for the church here because it kind of allowed some flexibility in ministry and things like that. Right now, you know, you know, for the time being, I'm this this is kinda what I'm doing. I'm I'm serving here, preaching at, the 2 churches. The the bivocational part of it. You know, and we've talked about this at the church.
Rian:Like, there may come a time, you know, there may come a time in the future that they're like, hey. We need to have somebody full time back at this church. And, you know, so when that happens, that'll be, you know, conversations that we need to have and and hopefully be done in a, you know, in a healthy way, you know, for for everybody. And, you know, and I don't know what the future holds for me on those things too. But they have,
T.J.:Who does?
Rian:Yeah. Who does? I mean, that's exactly right. The, you know, for me, it's a neat thing to be able to, like, work with the team. Mhmm.
Rian:And it's like Salem this year. We're getting ready to to to restart FCA. And, you know, so you kinda have a unique relationship with a team that that sometimes is harder to achieve, in a church center. And that was one of the things I struggled with. One of the things I struggled with early in the ministry here was was kind of this ivory tower feeling of feeling like you're separate from everybody.
Rian:You know, you're not really you're you're you're placed kind of on a I don't wanna say a pedestal, but you're you're sort of set apart and and not just By the in the not the community.
T.J.:Okay. Yeah. I was gonna ask
Rian:about that. Set apart by god for ordained service, but I'm talking about, like, you're kinda set apart from the community. It's very hard it's very hard to I I think this is a challenge for pastors in general. Man, it's hard to break into a new community Mhmm. Just as a pastor.
Rian:And, you know, I think, I've I've thought about this after going back in the work, and I've thought I've even looked at, like, the church plants and things like that around here that have been successful and the ones that have failed. And I think, you know, what what I see that happens with the church plants that are that are successful is that the church plants that are successful are always planted by people who are already people in the community. It's planted by your teachers. It's planted by your business leaders. It's planted by people who are already in the community.
Rian:And the and the church plants that struggle are the church plants where somebody comes in from outside and tries to start it. And that's been kinda open for me because there's relationships that I have from working in the school. From working in the schools, there's relationships I have that I could never get to whenever I was just in the store world. And so for me, that's, a continued thing, I think, you know, continue to wrestle with, but but I say it. So
T.J.:We've had the you and I have had these conversations, similar conversations before and it's really tempting for me to run with it and then we get lost and and get away from your journey a bit. I do wanna comment that I don't think it's just the isolation of the ministers. Well, I think we do this just as Christians. Mhmm. And we I call it the Christian bubble.
T.J.:I'm sure there are better phrases and terms, but the people that we are closest to, we spend the most time with, that we interact the most are just like us. Theologically, you know, the area that, you know, we may live in, where we shop, go to the doctor, go to school, all those. And each one of those can be very isolating in terms of what does sharing the news good news of Jesus Christ look like. Well, there isn't any because I know we're, you know, Ryan is or Ryan knows where TJ is, but we don't. We do, but we don't.
T.J.:We can assume too much. And, anyway, I yeah. I'm really tempted to just go, yeah, and talk about church planting and things like that, but that was for another occasion.
Rian:Yeah. And I just kinda went on that side because it was for me, it was eye opening just to realize, like like, how many people, you know one, it takes a long time to build relationships Mhmm. That are that are fruitful. And It can be years. Years.
Rian:It takes years to build. You know, I'm just now seeing I've been here 10 years, and there have been, you know, there have been times where, you know, there's been times when I've been encouraged, and there's been times when I've been discouraged. And but I'm just now seeing not I'm not saying exclusively, but I'm just now seeing things happen. But I'm seeing things in the last 2 weeks that are the results of relationships. I say partially the result, not exclusively to to me being in a relationship with them, but that are partially results of relational aspects that were founded 10 years ago.
Rian:Mhmm. Mhmm. And it's taken 10 years in some of these things to see to see fruit being born. And I and I think sometimes as pastors, it's so easy to become discouraged after 2 or 3 years. Mhmm.
Rian:3 or 5 years. And I we studied the seminary, but, you know, there's those windows, like, after so many years. You know? And and and pastoring is hard. You know, some of the you know, I don't mind being yelled at because you don't like to play Iran.
Rian:Right? Somebody doesn't like to play Iran in offense. That doesn't bother me at all. You know, where I'm vulnerable is when people come at me, you know, as a pastor or as a preacher or as a Christian. And, you know, and so those are the ones that kinda dig us the deepest and I think become become those discouraging things.
Rian:And and, so it's hard, I think, as a pastor to know, like, what's just common discouragement. You know? Because I'm gonna ask you this question. I'm gonna ask you a question here. Alright.
Rian:Alright. What what is the what what is the most rewarding thing? What do you think is one of the most rewarding things that a pastor does in their ministry for you or for for anybody else? What do you think one of the most rewarding things is?
T.J.:Well, I can only speak for me. And the most rewarding is also the most difficult for me. And you're talking about serving a church, like, I currently don't serve a church. Okay. So when I've done that in the past and even in the role that I have in the church now, the most rewarding and the most difficult is the relationships with other Christians, human beings, and Cumberland Presbyterians.
T.J.:I love it. It's fascinating to get to know new people, get to know people that I'm acquainted with even more and even deeply more deeply, share in service and opportunities together, but also the aspect of of when Ryan experienced pain, you know, I do as well. Or Ryan inflicts pain on me, I feel that, you know. You haven't, but if you did. So that would be the discouraging.
T.J.:That's that's my answer. Is the relationships that I have and will make is the most rewarding and also the most difficult?
Rian:Yeah. So I think my answer is, like, ties on yours, not nearly as developed as that, by the way. That's a much better answer than what I'm so for me, what I find, it it it ties to the relationships, though, is is one of the most rewarding things that I experienced in ministry is when I do a funeral for a person who died as a saint and who I've been able to bear witness to their journey.
T.J.:Firsthand.
Rian:Firsthand. Yeah. And that ties into the relationship thing and their faith. You know? And but pastor is hard for me because because I'm a mile marker guy.
Rian:Right? I, you know, I enjoy one of my favorite jobs I've ever had outside of coaching was whenever I was in college, I worked in a for a landscaping company at in Nashville. Alright?
T.J.:Yeah.
Rian:Alright. Do you know why I liked it? Because I could walk off that property at the end of the day, and I could look back and I could see an immaculate Mhmm. Apartment complex. And I knew I had done a good job.
Rian:Mhmm. I knew I knew the crew that I was with had done a good job. And pastoring for me, I think that's one of the reasons pastoring for me is hard because sometimes you don't know if you're doing a good job and you, and, and it, and it's like, it might go months, years, decades, decade. Like that's hard for me to write my, it's been a, it's been a decade now. A lot of a lot of people are a lot more experienced in the ministry than I am, but it's been a decade at faith and new hope.
Rian:Faith, hope, will, and new hope. And and I'm just seeing stuff like, bear fruit. And it's like it's like, wow. It's humbling. You know?
Rian:And and that is it's really humbling. It's like and it's encouraging, but it's also it's a little sobering because you don't mean you just don't that that's what's hard for me sometimes, pastor. You don't get that weekly that weekly affirmation. You know? And you appreciate the people that come up to you say, great job, pastor.
Rian:Great job, pastor. But, you know, when somebody, you know, when somebody says, hey. Great. That was a great sermon pastor and didn't preach that week. You know what I mean?
Rian:On Facebook, you're like, I don't even know if you listen to it. Right? So so those weekly affirmations, you appreciate them, but it's like sometimes you look at yourself and you're like, okay. Am I really, you know, am I really doing what I'm supposed to be doing and stuff like that? So that that's that's the hard part of it.
T.J.:Ryan, I've given this a lot of thought. And I haven't drawn any conclusions, but I think about those things as well throughout my ministry. And I think those that maybe have grown up in sports that have a competitive nature, you know, you have goal setting, you know, and they're personal and or individual, and then sometimes your team, you know, they're shared. And then you can see the progress or digress, you know, and how much further you have to go. And then you enter into ministry, and the world is, like, turned completely upside down because Completely inverted.
T.J.:Yeah. You're no longer typically, in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, the the team mentality, there's really not a good sport analogy, but maybe tennis or golf in terms of that there's a lot of dependency on your own. And, you know, you enter you leave a team setting where a team can be 5 or, you know, 9 or more people to one of the loneliest professions in the entire world, if not the loneliest profession, even though you're surrounded by people. The thing that, you mentioned about landscaping and grass mowing, I I've done that as well. And not only you can see how much that you've completed, but you can also look ahead and how much more you have to go to accomplish that goal.
T.J.:What I've had to do in my ministry is, distinguish between what is the deepening of my own personal faith, what does that look like in terms of goal setting, and then ask the question, how does it overlap with the people that I'm surrounded by, the people that I'm called to serve? It was harder for me to do and maybe even impossible for me to articulate much earlier in my ministry. And so the measurements for me have changed. And now, again, I'm speaking if I was in 1 pastorate or 2 pastures, is those measurements of growth is being able to go, oh, I was actually able I'm making this situation up. Mary allowed me to come and visit her in a nursing home this time when previously she only wanted me to give phone calls.
T.J.:So I've established a little bit of trust there where I can go and visit Mary at at at the nursing home. So to those little things like that or or somebody actually inquiring into my life a little bit. And for 3 years, they never asked, you know, in the pastorate, well, where did you go on vacation? Those are little things that I think are different and have kept me from discouragement as in, okay, as this fill in the blank Cumberland Presbyterian Church, our goals are now, you know, 1, 2, and 3. Well, 95% of the time, those were your goals to begin with because you're the one who introduced them.
T.J.:And then you've placed those on 15, 30, 300 people to help accomplish them, you've set yourself up for discouragement. So I'm I'm I don't have any solutions. I don't even have any suggestions. I guess, maybe the best thing I could say to you, Ryan, is I wish I knew now what I didn't know then, you know, when I was in my early twenties. I think that's a Bob Seger line.
T.J.:Yeah. I think.
Rian:Well, I think there's a certain amount and this is something I've had to kind of accept and get to is that there's a certain a great amount of just individual acceptance that, you know, God's gonna use you for his plan. And and that it may not be right. The separating individual goals and god's goals, like you just said, are sometimes the hard for us to do. And, you know, what I've kinda seen, I'm kinda bearing witness to some of these things that happened in the last few weeks is like, I really didn't realize that God was even working in those situations.
T.J.:Yeah.
Rian:You know? I really I really didn't realize that God was even working. And then lo and behold, you know, here it is. And, you know
T.J.:I think we put so much pressure on ourselves. If I could summarize that long rant that I just did is is that we are very result oriented.
Rian:Mhmm.
T.J.:I think individually and and just society. And that's very it's hard to present tangible results, because you don't even know what the true measurements are. We say bear fruit, but what does that mean in a way, you know? So I think maybe our our our, terms of measurements have to be defined and then we can start looking at the context in which we are serving, But also have to be flexible because that context changes with every addition to the community of faith and with every subtraction, whether it's a move or death or whatever. That's why I think I think we should rethink what, in terms of a local congregation, what growth looks like and be more honest with ourselves and also the very people that we serve.
Rian:That's hard, I think. Oh, go ahead.
T.J.:It is. Yeah. I wanted to ask you a question. Something that you had mentioned earlier is how do you think the community that you live in, the county that you live in perceives you when they see you? Because you're a minister, you know, you're a husband to Michelle, you're a parent, you're a basketball coach.
T.J.:You know, you wear these different hats and what do you think people see or what do you want them to see or feel when they see you come around the corner?
Rian:Yeah. So that's something, you know, kinda wrestle with, too because people do it's interesting to me that a lot of people struggle seeing somebody with different hats. Mhmm. They struggle with it. They have trouble with you know, I had I had somebody ask me one time, before I ever came here, before I ever came here, so they said, well, how can you be a coach and a pastor?
Rian:I was like, what do you mean? And their perception of what you have to do to be a coach was inconsistent with historical values. Right? Because in their mind, coaches done what? He's he's, you know, he's cussing the players.
Rian:He's you know what I mean? All this stuff like that. And I'm like and I just asked them. I said, well, how can you be or how or, you know, I said, well, I said, well, do you think somebody could be a, like, if somebody, like, be a, like, contractor and a pastor? Like, sure.
Rian:Alright. Well, what's the difference? What's the difference between me being a coach and being a pastor or coach and being a Christian and being a and but I think sometimes people have trouble perceiving you in different hats. And so that's something that that whenever you wear a lot of different hats that you definitely have to deal with. What I really try to do is to be consistent.
Rian:Now I've had to change I'll tell you. I've had to change how I coach. I'm a much different coach now at 44 years old, with 10 years of pastor of ministry behind me than I was whenever I was a 27 year old starting out Dyersburg State. You know what I mean? I'm I'm much different.
Rian:Like, the way I handle people, the way I treat people, demands I make, the way I talk to people, things like that, it's it's much different. Mhmm. So I've had to change, you know, who I am. And it's not been a false change. It's just been I've changed who I am.
Rian:Like, who I am as a person has grown, and and so the way I treat my athletes has changed. The, what I would like what I hope people see, is is someone who's uniquely me. Right? I'm uniquely me. Mhmm.
Rian:And that's not always fit comfortably into people's idea of what a coach is supposed to be or what their idea of what a pastor is supposed to be. Mhmm. But I hope that people see somebody who's uniquely me, but unabashedly Christian. And and that there's never any question, you know, with people about, you know, about who I am in in my Christian witness. And and and I've not always done well with that.
Rian:There's been times I've done something. That's terrible witness. That is a terrible witness. You know? Like, you know, that that was just a terrible thing.
Rian:And, you know, and and usually I try to apologize. Like, if something happens, you know, because I tend to be, you know, I tend to sometimes speak first. I've I've tried to make myself slower of speech and, you know, to where I think about things and stuff, but sometimes I'll let something kinda fly off the handle, something that you know? And I've one thing I've tried to do is always apologize. Like, if if I know or sense that I've wronged somebody Mhmm.
Rian:And I'll always try to apologize to them and and let them know. It's one thing I'm trying to do with my kids. Like, if if I find out if I figure out I'm wrong with something, something to do with my kids, I'm I'm I'll always apologize to them because I think that's important. But, yeah, that's what I wanna say. Somebody that's that's I won't say comfortable in my own skin.
Rian:I don't know if I've ever come from my own skin. But who is who is trying to to do to live out what what I feel like I'm led to do? Whose ministry is a little different? It is. Like like, my ministry is a little different.
Rian:I'm a, you know, I probably don't rest enough. I probably don't sleep enough. I probably don't do any of those things enough. But but what I also find is is that, is that I tend to be more productive when I kinda operate like that. I don't know if that's healthy or not.
Rian:I'll tell you a story about miss at Bethel. Mhmm. Miss professor. Yeah. So I always used to write English papers.
Rian:Right? I was the English major. I'd be I'd be writing papers, and it'd be, like, day of, day before, and I'm like typing out something. She came up to me one day and she said, you know, you don't have to work this way. I'm like, I know.
Rian:I don't. I don't. I need to do better. You know? So I was like, you could do this.
Rian:Like, you could have this done like a week ago. I'm like, I know. And so I'm like, okay. I'm gonna show it. Like, I'm gonna do it.
Rian:I'm gonna I'm gonna try to embrace this way of operating. I'm gonna do this. So, like, the next paper that came up, like, I'm I'm out there early. I'm like researching weeks ahead of time. I'm typing up.
Rian:I finished the product, and I turned it in, like, 3 days early. And she tells me, I quote, don't ever do this again. Because because, like, that didn't that what you know, I did everything the right way. Does Does that make sense? I did the research the right way.
Rian:I did I did it in a quarter with, like, everybody else's time management, according to what worked for them. And what I turned that in wasn't me. Mhmm. It wasn't it wasn't what I could normally produce. And she told me, she said, don't ever do this again.
Rian:Like like, you just go do you, be you. You know? And, so that's what I've kinda been trying to do. I don't know what the future holds. I I feel like right now with where I'm you know, the group I'm working with, I feel like I have a mission there.
Rian:In in coaching, I feel like I have a mission there. I don't know that I've coached. I've never had in my mind I started so late in coaching and teaching in the public school. I've never had in my mind that I was gonna retire from it. Right?
Rian:You know what I mean? It it's just you know, so that's not something. So I just kinda go with with with the mission and kinda where I feel. You know, I don't you know, I know I'll continue to to preach and to to work in, you know, churches and things like that, but but I don't know what the what the future holds there either. But but I hope people see this.
Rian:I hope people see somebody on Tuesday. That's the same as they see on Sunday.
T.J.:I wonder. I wondered about that for me. I wonder about that being now, you know. You will how do people perceive, you know, because I'm a neighbor, you know, family, I travel in my work, no longer bivocational, but I just wonder how people perceive. So I wanted to pose that to you.
Rian:Yeah. People label you. It's interesting people label you a certain way, and then it seems like sometimes it doesn't matter what you say.
T.J.:Well, it
Rian:Everything's feeding in through that label. You know? They they put on those glasses of Yeah. Of of their experiences, their biases with that type of person. So if somebody had it I'm a tell you, and this is true.
Rian:If somebody had a coach in high school that they absolutely hated, then the chances of them having a negative encounter with me, even if I do nothing, it seems to be greater. If if they hate basketball, if somebody hates basketball, you know what I mean, then then I really try to just come to them through the pastor side of it. But, you know, a lot of people have negative have have have kind of a skepticism of pastors.
T.J.:Oh, yeah.
Rian:And Rightly earned. Rightly earned. Rightly earned. And and so I've actually found people that I've and I've been able to form a much better connection with and witness to them through. And I'll tell you this that's one thing I do, and I know that's tricky ground.
Rian:And I try to I try to respect the rules of my schools and stuff like that. Right? So there's definite there's definite boundaries that I place on myself in that. But but where I can use my position or or who I am as a witness, I I do. Mhmm.
Rian:And, you know, and and so I try to do that in a way that's respectful to local statutes and things like that, but but that's something also I I I want everybody to be clear on as as who I am and and the gospel that that I'm teaching and and representing.
T.J.:It's a challenge, not necessarily inwardly, but it's just a challenge that we face, in our vocations. Ryan, you landed in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and you could've landed anywhere else. You've been part of the denomination. Denomination has helped form, shape you, educate you into ministry. What news would you share with somebody who, listens to this and doesn't really know anything about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
T.J.:What would you want to share from your experience, from your encounter? The wise man has leaned back. He's
Rian:Yeah. And I'm
T.J.:not commentating here. He's measuring his words.
Rian:Yeah. So I think that what I would wanna share with somebody, who maybe didn't know about the Kremlin Presbyterian Church is that is that we started as a gospel centered church with the mindset of spreading the gospel, sharing good news. And that, you know, we're continuing to do that. There is there is for us, like, every denomination right now. There are tensions.
Rian:And I do tell people this. I tell people, you know, that visit my church. I tell people their intentions right now. As a denomination, we're, you know, we're going through a lot of the, you know, same conversations and and things like this that that all modern churches are. But that that we have a that we have a solid, foundation and that we have people who who, you know, every church is a little different, but that we have people who who love Jesus and that and that we have good people in our churches.
Rian:And that we have, is that if and that if you get into a church and you become part of it is that is that you become part of part of a big family that I think, unlike some of the larger denominations, there's a there's a a really unique connection between the various presbyteries and and people and things like that in the CP church. You know, I don't I don't think that that the other denominations have that partly because of their sheer size. Mhmm. You know, I don't know, you know, I don't know a lot of denominations or almost, you know, several people from every presbytery on first name basis with people at the denomination center or that, you know, almost everybody's met the moderator. Mhmm.
Rian:You know, and things like this. And so and so there's a really unique thing there. There's a lot of risk in that. I think our risk for I think our risk for hurt is partially greater because our familial connection is deeper. Mhmm.
Rian:But there's a lot of risk there is risk in that, but there's also a lot of reward in that. And and then it's a really unique thing, you know, for a lot of us to be able to share these kinda common common experiences.
T.J.:Yeah. I think that goes with family that we know each other so well or can know about each other so well that intentionally or unintentionally, we also know how to hurt the other person really well and say the right thing that I know that Ryan that it would hurt him. And he knows that I hurt him, and just like a family. And and we can do that. And sometimes that makes apologizing even that much harder, you know.
T.J.:I hope I haven't hurt you. I hope I haven't said anything, you know. I certainly hadn't done it on purpose, but to apologize, to be able to look you in the eyes and go, I said this, I did this, because I didn't like what, you know, this, that, or the other. It makes it that much harder, I think, in a smaller context. With that being said, it also comes for our denomination and even down to the local church to be able to pick one another up when we have fallen flat on our face.
Rian:Mhmm.
T.J.:When we've made terrible mistakes in our family or workplace or in school or out in the front yard, out in the community, whatever it is, it is nice to be a part of a group of people that will help pick you up, assist where you need it, and won't abandon you, then I find that in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Doesn't mean that they weren't disappointed in you. But there's a difference between being disappointment or disappointed and abandoned. I think we work terribly hard not to abandon folks in our local church and even beyond.
Rian:There's a responsibility, I think, on just as part of being the body of Christ as as both as both the body and lifting up the person that's been hurt or has messed up, and then also as a person who has been hurt or messed up in allowing the body to pick us up.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Rian:You know, there's a there's a responsibility both ways there. That's a, I guess, that could be a sermon. So
T.J.:Ryan, I like asking guests out, and I don't wanna miss this opportunity with you. Looking into the future for our denomination, warts and all, Where would you like to see it in terms of its ministry, in terms of its witness? You know, if you had that magic wand and you were able to wave it, Where would you like to see the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
Rian:I would like to see so couple things. You know, I would like to see us as as a denomination, more unified on our biblical, or doctrinal stances. I think right now, you know, a lot of the things right now is, it's part it's part of the familial discussion and it's part of all of this that's going on. But I also think it's making it hard on, local churches and presbyteries, you know, to do the work. So I I would like to see more unity, in the in the in our in our doctrinal, positions.
Rian:Knowing that there will never be, like, complete, you know, agreement across the lines on on everything, but I'd like to see there'd be more unity in that. I would like to see, man, I'd like to see us get into in a greater way, the Spanish speaking population that's just exploding right now in the United States. And, you know, we've talked a little bit about what we're trying to do in Arkansas. Mhmm. But but I think that the future of the current Presbyterian Church in the United States and and when I say this, I wanna be really careful that I'm not, condescending, with the Kremlin Presbyterian Church, globally.
Rian:I think I do think sometimes in the United States, we tend to talk as if talk about the us and and them type things, like the American church and then, like, these outlier kinda you know? So so they're part of the of what we're doing globally. But I I feel like there's a opportunity in the United States, to to to really expand our churches beyond just the, you know, mostly, you know, kind of the churches that we have right now and and the and the populations that we serve right now. I would like to so I'd like to see us expanding in those ways, becoming more becoming more evangelical and and becoming I I don't know that we're not evangelical, but I'd like to see us become, like, down to the local level, like, better at doing evangelism. And this is something we've talked about.
Rian:Like, how do you do this? Like like like because our churches are different. Like, our traditions are different. And it it's kind of a challenge right now in modern culture for historically the way we've done church to to really get out there. So those those are all things to look at at.
Rian:And, and then, man, I hope that, you know, I I just hope the CP church, I just hope it it it expands and multiplies and, goes to unreached places and unreached cities and unreached lands and and, you know, and and just continues to do that. So I hope 30 years from now, you know, I hope the CP church is one of the churches that we're talking about grew, during what I think is is going to be a very challenging time to do ministry. Mhmm. I mean, we know it is. We're seeing churches that are you know, the trend is churches are declining.
Rian:Mainline denominations are declining. So we have a big challenge. So, yeah, I hope 30 years from now, we can say, man, in the midst of that adversity, in the midst of that postmodern trends or I don't I don't even think we're postmodern now. I think we're like I think, like, we I don't even know what the term is for what we are now. But, like, in the in the in in whatever this virtual world that we're going into is, I hope we can say the the CP church flourished.
T.J.:One more question for you. I said that we would swing back around to this. We were talking about, diminishing returns and rest.
Rian:Mhmm.
T.J.:Ron, what do you do to rest?
Rian:So this is this is hard for me because my challenge is, you know, with my time commitments and things like that. So what I typically do is and and having it on the set schedule is is kinda hard. Fortunately, my Saturdays are are typically able to be fairly free. My mornings on Saturdays either my mornings or evenings are are usually dedicated to, like, church prep or something like that. But, often, I'm able to have a pretty free time.
Rian:My Sunday afternoons and Sunday evenings are pretty free. Mhmm. And, and so I really lean into lean into those times. There's times like this week. I'm doing almost nothing this week.
Rian:And I build myself some weeks like that through the year. Like, I'm doing I'm I'm doing this podcast with you today, and I'm gonna go pick my son up in a second and take him some lunch. And, and then the afternoon, I'm gonna probably go back to my house, and I'm probably gonna read a book for a few hours and then maybe take a nap, and then I'll go pick my son up again. So so I try to build myself these periods where I just completely so one thing about me is I'm I'm a people person. I do like being around people, but I have periods that I have to just retreat to be by myself.
Rian:And and so I just want complete just just me. I just I just kinda shut it down and don't do anything for for a while. And that's kinda how I recharge my batteries to go back out and and talk and deal with people again.
T.J.:Well, Ryan, that sounds like a good place for us to to allow you to to do that. And thank you so much for sharing this conversation with me and letting me walk in your journey for a while and how God has spoken to you and continues to speak to you. And our paths have crossed in different times in our lives, but I didn't know any of this. So I feel grateful that be able to hear it and then be able to share it with others.
Rian:Well, I hope that, I hope that it is a encouragement for people. I hope people won't, judge me too harshly for what they've heard. And I hope that people will take a I hope that anybody that's wrestling with ministry will will not choose my path. I mean, I really do. I hope they will, you know, I I think without a doubt, I missed opportunities.
Rian:I missed, opportunities for growth and and things like that. You know? So I hope they'll hear and be like, man, I just I'm just gonna, like, I'm just gonna do this. And, it is a, it it is a privilege, to be able to be a minister. It's it's something I don't feel worthy of.
Rian:Mhmm. I often I, you know, I often wonder, you know, why God called me to it and, because I know there's people that are a lot more, suited for it and a lot more, gifted in it, things like that than than I am. And and then sometimes, you know, I even even today, I question. Okay. Well, you know, am I supposed to you know, am I sure that I'm supposed to be doing this?
Rian:And then what I find is, you know, what I find is that god will do something. Like, he'll he'll let you like you like I'm like, okay. Like, I'm not Billy Graham, but but I'm doing what he's wanting me to do. You know what I mean? So Yeah.
Rian:So my ministry is not gonna be like Billy Graham or, you know, one of these guys like this, but that's okay. Like, I'm gonna I'm trying to serve in in in the capacity that I've been called to serve in.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road. Please check out my other guest and share this podcast with your family and friends. In closing, read some words from Marcus Aurelius. Hour by hour, resolve to do the task of the hour carefully with unaffected dignity, affectionately, freely, and justly. You can avoid distractions that might interfere with such performance if every act is done as though it were the last act of your life. Thanks for listening.
