Rocky Johnson - Biblical Authority, Biblical Preaching, & An Unlikely Candidate
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. The following is a faith conversation with Reverend Rocky Johnson. Rocky is serving the Liberty Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Clarksville, Tennessee. I've known Rocky for a number of years and wanted to hear how he came to the Christian faith and into Rocky's journey is powerful and unique, and to my joy, told with East Tennessee euphemisms. Here is the faith journey of Rocky Johnson.
T. J.:Rocky Johnson, I was thinking the other day, when was the first time that we met? And you can correct me. Maybe you can flesh this story out better than me. But, we we're both living in East Tennessee, and you were working for, what was it? Delight in Power. I don't know. Who were you were you were bivocational at the well, I was too, but you were bi vocational at the time. And and it seems like we met in town casually, You know, like we had seen each other in presbytery. But do you remember that? It seems like, we I don't know.
T. J.:We bumped into each other at, like, a a store or restaurant and ended up chatting for a while.
Rocky:I do. I do. I actually was working for the Greenville Water System at the time and by vocational serving, Bethesda, Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And I don't know. I guess you and I had become familiar, TJ, I guess, through presentary.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Rocky:But I do remember that you were were you in the church or looking for a church or something came up about employment, something? And I I recall something like that, but you and I were talking about things. And, but I I do remember that. And I guess we just got familiar with each other at presbytery, and it was kinda one of those spontaneous meetings. And, yeah, I recall that, though.
T. J.:That's right. Okay. Now I remember some of it. So yeah. My wife and I relocated to to the Greenville, Tennessee area.
T. J.:And, we moved because it was a job opportunity for her, and I didn't have anything lined up.
Rocky:Yeah. I think it's correct.
T. J.:Yeah, on on the, secular work. And where we moved from during my days off from the full time church I was serving, I was reading electric meters. Just just, you know, 3 or 4 times a month and really enjoyed it. Yeah. And, so we bumped into each other because of Presbyterian, because of the Cumberland Presbyterian connection.
Rocky:Mhmm.
T. J.:And, unfortunately, Greene County, right as we had moved there, was going through the transition of moving from the more traditional electric meters to the digital ones that could be, I guess, read over radio waves or through the power lines. And, so I hit it just wrong. So actually, it seems like there was like a concern of those meter readers may not be needed in the next few years as that transition was coming to completion. That's how we met. Now I remember.
Rocky:Yeah. I I remember it had something to do with employment because you asked me about any employment opportunities around there.
T. J.:Yeah. I I enjoyed that work. Got you outdoors all day long. Yeah. Got to meet people.
T. J.:Mhmm. But yeah. Anyway, so at that time, were you were you Cumberland Presbyterian? You were serving Bethesda. Were you already ordained?
T. J.:How did that fit into your journey?
Rocky:Well, I actually began and made a commitment to Christ through the through the Baptist church. I guess what's odd about me a little bit is I had no prior church training. No I wasn't brought up in church, Was raised in a good moral family. Had great parents. Youngest of 6 siblings.
T. J.:Wow.
Rocky:My mother had the first five from 1935 to 1942, and then I came along in 1960.
T. J.:Oh, wow. I bet I bet your feet never touched the ground. You were just carried around by every family member.
Rocky:That's what they say, but the youngest was 18, 17 when I was born. And now all of those are gone except 1. And the one that was 17 is actually 81 years old now.
T. J.:Wow.
Rocky:64, 63. Yes. 63, and she's 81. But, anyway, I ended up making a commitment to Christ through the Baptist Church because that's where I'd been invited to. I could've been invited to a Lutheran or Cumberland Presbyterian or any of them as far as I can but I just happened to be invited to a Baptist church, and it was through that Baptist church that I made a commitment to Christ.
Rocky:And then, probably about a year after that, since the call to preach about a year later. And so, really, I thought my journey was in in the Baptist church at that time. I ministered in a Baptist church. It was, you you know, a good sized Baptist church, probably 300 people. And and really most thought that I would end up being the pastor of that church, but through a series of events, I don't know.
Rocky:God's plan just just wasn't that way. So, there for a while, I would go out and just fill in at different churches and all. And then, finally, I got a call to, to Bethesda. Did you ever know Glenn Holt? Does that ring a bell, Reverend Glenn Holt?
T. J.:The name does, but I cannot picture the face.
Rocky:Glenn was a really good preacher, and Glenn had me at, he would have me to come and fill in his pulpit whenever he was was gonna be out. Glenn was always talking to me about coming over into the Cumberland Presbyterian. And I I knew that Glenn was solid to me, biblical, you know, being solid biblically and all, that's the most important thing. And when he and I would talk, I knew that I didn't really have any problem with any of the theology. The the main concern for me was the message of salvation by grace through faith and the the security of the believer.
Rocky:And Lynn would always say, we need some, you know, we need some help in the CP church. Why don't you consider coming over into the CP? And he had called me to Bethesda. I think I'd preached one time up there, TJ, and and then, Glenn passed away of a massive heart attack up there suddenly. Mhmm.
Rocky:And he had been there a good while. And if I'm not mistaken, I'd only been there one time, and they caught they took off 1 week with Glenn's passing, and they called me the following week to come up there. And after they call me that following week, I was there for about 12 years. Just never missed a lick. Now there was a while that I was kinda like a man without a country, and I was trying to figure out, well, you know, I've been ordained in the Southern Baptist Church.
Rocky:What am I doing here? You know? And and I was I was indecisive there for a while, and I really was. I love the church up there and the people, and I kept thinking, what am I gonna do? And for a while, really, I just kind of stayed the course just kinda saying, that goes back to what you and I were talking about.
Rocky:If god could have just spoken to me plainly and said, hey. Here's what I want you to do. Had to be an awesome, but it didn't work that way. So for a while, I ministered there, and and I still went to presbytery. Although I was not, you know, was not ordained Cumberland Presbyterian, I still tried to do what I could to support the denomination, although I was on the outside.
Rocky:But finally came to the point where I just had to make a make a decision. I felt like, again, somebody without a country, and I just said, is god am I going into the Baptist? Am I going to go into the Cumberland Presbyterian? And I finally just after thinking about it and and still wasn't a clear audible voice saying, hey, Rocky. Go this route.
Rocky:But I just felt like that God had led me in a different different route. And, and then I began to you know, when I made that decision after serving at Bethesda for a while, I said, well, I might as well become a part of things and, you know, met with the committee on the ministry and then started the process for ordination.
T. J.:Did you always, were are you from East Tennessee, when I met you out there in Greene County, is is that your area? Is that your roots?
Rocky:Originally originally from Greenville, Tennessee. Yes.
T. J.:We were, talking off mic about, some of your early experiences just growing up in the area. And, you were sharing that, maybe the younger self, the younger Rocky, had no idea that he would end up in ministry. Let's talk about the younger Rocky as much as you're open to sharing. And, what was his life like? What was his attitude towards the world like?
Rocky:Well, growing up, like I say, coming along late in life and having older siblings and all, is kind of is kind of strange. My parents were aged. Mother was 45, I think, when I came along. And so I didn't really get to grow up with siblings, so I played more with nephews and and stuff like that. But, you know, I had a had a good young life.
Rocky:I had a sister that was married to a basketball coach, professional coach, and he coached at the University of Tennessee. Mhmm. And so, normally, I would spend summers down there with them, and it was back during the, I don't know if you remember the Ernie Bernie days down there or not, Ernie Grunfeld, Bernard King. But we'd go down there, and he coached, and and he had a career everywhere where he coached. And I spent a lot of time.
Rocky:He was a really, I guess, a positive influence because he was more into motivational director type things and working with trouble players and all. And but, I'd say I had no church background rearing. My parents were the top that if you wanted to go, you could go, but it was left up to you. So I was not taken to church, but I do remember one event when I was 12 or 13 years old. I was sitting in the living room there at the old home place, and I just had a it seemed like a fear came over me, a threat of hell.
Rocky:And I don't know why just out of the blue. I guess just the holy spirit. Nobody had witnessed to me. Nobody had talked to me. Just a dread.
Rocky:Mhmm. And then through those younger the those teenage years, like, I think I mentioned to you, I deviated into into some dark stuff. I really did. I, and I I don't mind saying it because I use it as a testimony and give god the glory, but I deviated heavily into into drugs and alcohol and, and and things and, was really doing everything in my power to destroy myself. Mhmm.
Rocky:Had several close encounters with death, and, you know, I guess other than the fact that God had a plan for me, it it it just, it wouldn't have went well. But, I just went through that very rebellious teenage years where the, you know, the parents couldn't do couldn't do much or anything. And, you know, I don't know. The the seemed like I came along late, and and the other kids, they used to joke. They'd tell my father and mother, those other boys, all they got out did, maybe drank a beer, got in a fight, or something like that.
Rocky:But my they, I just seem to do everything I could to push the envelope. And, I, you you know, I don't know. And, I never had any inclination toward ministry at all. Didn't have any inclination toward church at all. Mhmm.
Rocky:And, you know, and I guess what what got the ball rolling while I was working for the water system. I had a guy that I that I worked with, and he is actually a pastor now, likewise. And, I mean, he was, he was meaner than the dep. I mean, he was the type. He had tried a circle saw.
Rocky:He was just mean as a snake. And he came in one day, and he there was a radical difference in that guy's life. And he looked at me, and he said he'd gotten saved, which was totally foreign to me. I didn't know what that meant. But I I just never seen such a radical change in a man's life right there.
Rocky:Mhmm. Overnight? Yes. Amazing, and it's just different. Like I say, and now he's been in ministry for years.
Rocky:He and I both would have been 2 of the most unlikely candidates for ministry that you can imagine. When I got saved, that that was mind boggling enough to the people in East Tennessee because I've had quite a reputation. But then to hear that I announced the call to ministry was doubly mind boggling. You know? It was but, you know, God I just had a plan.
T. J.:So those were packaged together. So not only did you make a profession of faith, but you also felt a tug towards ministry.
Rocky:Probably about a year in when I was attending that Baptist church.
T. J.:Okay.
Rocky:I told the minister I said, I I just have a sense that I'm supposed to be up there. And he basically just said, well, he he was an older gentleman, and and all he knew to say really was prepare, and I'll turn you loose. And and, basically, he did and I did. And and the first time I ministered and spoke, evidently, people recognized the gift and said, you know, you sound like you've been doing this for, you know, a long time, and and it just seemed to be natural. And that's been that's been over 40 years now.
T. J.:Wow. Well, you were talking about your coworker that made a quick transition. Let's talk about let's talk about your encounter with god, kind of walk me through that. And, then we'll kind of lead into, how that changed, golly, your relationships, the work environment, and how that really changed you, Letting go of some things and taking on new things. So I I sort of spoke over you.
T. J.:We're talking about a coworker comes into work one day, and he was a different man. What were you thinking at the time? What was young Rocky thinking?
Rocky:You know, I I didn't know what had happened. And, to be honest about it, and I'm just pretty plain spoken, the the working environment that I was in was not was not conducive to to good spiritual health or or even mental health. So back in, let's be honest about it. Back in 1978 when I went to work there, the water system did not draw the cream of the crop. Okay?
Rocky:It just didn't. It just didn't. And and and, you know, when I had an opportunity to go on to college at that time and due due due to my lifestyle, I knew it would do me no good. I had no desire to. Mhmm.
Rocky:No. And I just wanted to go go to work. Now I did end up going back to school later on to college, but at that time, I just had no interest. So, you know, and, again, this environment that I worked in was was just very, very ungodly. Very, very much so.
Rocky:No no Christians and just a bunch of old rough rough boys. And, but I found myself that I enjoyed that kind of work. Mhmm. But like you said, being outside, nobody lord over me, having to do you know? I ended up turning that into a career that I think I would.
Rocky:No. I did not. I always knew I had more potential to be doing other things, but, I enjoyed that kind of work. I just enjoyed it. And and, 1 year turned into 5 and 5 to 10 and da da da, and it just went on and on.
Rocky:But when I saw the change this guy had, I I didn't know anything about it. I just knew this guy was, he was pretty rough, and he had gotten changed. And then, CJ, a lot of times in my memory doesn't work the best going back anymore. I'm getting a few. But I just recall him, you know, talking to me and witnessing and things, and, there was a little little Methodist church.
Rocky:You know? We were out on trucks riding around. You know? And and and, I guess I just tried about everything. I guess that, my view of of life at that time was to eat, drink, and be merry, or tomorrow you die.
Rocky:And, and that's what I live for. And it's all I live for, and I didn't know anything better. And, you know, I would imagine that his witness to me then then started affecting me. And I remember one day that we stopped at this little Methodist church on on the hill at they're off the Asheville Highway.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Rocky:You know, we're on it it was I think it's called First Free Methodist up there, and the preacher was up there. And and I said something about it. I just like to go in there and kneel down and pray. And I guess that was the beginning right there on on the job. We went in there, and I knelt down and prayed.
Rocky:And at least that was that was the beginning now. After that, I made some detours and and turns and this and that. But that I guess that was the initial the initial starting point. But as far as ever having it any inclination toward ministry or or even church, absolutely none.
T. J.:Yeah. I I think for those who are outside the faith, maybe even inside the faith, we we anticipate, maybe even expect a light switch change, which does occur for some. But in relationships and getting to know God through Jesus Christ, I mean, that's a lifelong journey and there's new revelations with every turn. Amen. And and being able to give people kind of space to move at their own pace as they explore the faith and grow into it.
Rocky:Now that invite oh, I'm sorry. What? I didn't mean to interrupt.
T. J.:No. No. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Rocky:I was going to say that environment that we worked in before myself and that gentleman gave our lives to Christ. There was only one man there that and I know he had a hard way to go because we had a a work crew of probably 20 at the time or 25. And, like I say, in in in a very ungodly environment. And there was one man that lived for crop ice there alone. Mhmm.
Rocky:And then,
T. J.:you
Rocky:know, finally, when that happened to me and the friend of mine I'm referring to, there there were, like, 3 of us, but it was a it was a very hostile environment. You took a lot of mockery for your faith. Took a lot of persecution for your faith. It was just a very, very bad environment to be in. And, you know, but, anyway, it's, I guess, in the end, it it worked out.
Rocky:I ended up, in fact, spending, right at 35 years there, and I was by vocational through most of those years. Mhmm. But, you know, like I say, you always look back and think, well, I could have been doing something else, doing something more with my life, and we all look back at that. But but, again, I guess the good part, it provided me a a check, and I never got less than 40 hours and never got laid off. And so, you know, I don't have anything anything bad to say about it.
Rocky:You know? For a vocational job, it, you know, it it provided.
T. J.:Of course. Well, let's talk about,
Rocky:One thing I would add, though, it it it sort of complemented the ministry in one way because I was afforded opportunities when I needed to be off to do things. So a lot of jobs don't really complement the ministry. There's a conflict, but, that that was pretty good about that particular job. If I needed to be off to minister or something, then then they would they would understand that.
T. J.:There's an advantage of being bivocational in terms of, you know, the the people that you encounter on a daily basis aren't always, what we might call church people or Christians.
Rocky:Right.
T. J.:You know, folks on on the edges there, the outliers. And and in full time ministry, even in part time ministry, you can find yourself surrounded by like minded individuals. And and, it can limit our opportunities to witness, to have deep conversations about who God is and and the world that surrounds us and how we interact with it and and how God interacts through Jesus and and, those conversations are different when we're inside the church among other Christians and, you know, even the language is different and the topics are different. I think those who are not ministers are oftentimes more advantageous in terms of our witness of who god is. You were talking about, the work environment and, you know, the difficulties of, you know, Rocky was this one individual, one day, and then in a short period of time, I imagine your coworkers and your neighbors and and family members were beginning to see a change in you, in your perspective, and how you carried yourself, and how you spoke.
T. J.:What did that do for those relationships? Did did you lose some friends and and did you gain some friends along the way?
Rocky:Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Marginalize some and and push some away because, you know, not not conducting ourself. What I think even Peter writes over there and says they think it's strange that you don't run with them with the same excess of riding and and all.
Rocky:And, and it it was surprising and, very, very surprising, and it did change relationships. It it was a prayer answered. I had, I had family members that had been praying for me, I understand, after the fact for a long time. And, you know, all at once. One of the odd things is, that I'll share with you, that's an amazing thing.
Rocky:My mother, worked at what was called the Austin Company, later became Diamond G there in Greenville. And she was going in when I was going through my really rambunctious times, and mother would be saying something like that. Last child of mine is just driving me crazy. And and somebody told her, said her name was Ethel, my mother's name. And they said, Ethel said, don't give up.
Rocky:Said that may be the one that turns out to be a preacher. It's what, it's what that person told mom. And then mom always alluded that to me after the fact, and I thought that was amazing. I would have been the least likely one. But, you you know, after that, it it was pretty neat becoming, they looked at me in a different light.
Rocky:It's family instead of being the I I became the I began to to minister to the family. Mhmm. I I led, I led my mother and father both to a a recommitment of Christ and led my brother and his wife. And, so I I became rather than like the the younger sibling, it it's almost like I became the not really spiritual patriarch or something because the older ones began to look to me. Mhmm.
Rocky:We had bad news. We had to circulate to mother or or if we have some bad news on another sibling. I actually ended up, I've I've conducted I don't know. I've had some odd things happen. I I baptized my mother.
Rocky:Mhmm. That's one of the precious things that I got to do. I actually conducted about all the funerals in my family. I've conducted all my, I've lost 3 brothers and one sister, conducted all their funerals, conducted my mother's funeral, helped in my dad's. So, yeah, everything relationally changed, and, of course, I I stopped running with the crowd that I ran with and just the transformation.
Rocky:And I and I was changed quite radically sorta overnight. Now we know the grave clothes of the old life. They they can hang on us. You know? Jesus said to Lazarus or to the people loosen and let him go.
Rocky:Those grave clothes can hang on you, but but, I mean, as far as being delivered from from some bad things, I I was pretty well just instantaneously, delivered from some some pretty bad things. So, yeah, ever everything changed. I remember one of the things that I did, I was a big kiss fanatic, and my family reminds me that I came in and tore all my kiss posters down and got rid of all my rock and roll albums and this and that. So I I I knew I didn't know everything, but I knew that I wasn't the same person. Right?
Rocky:Mhmm.
T. J.:I
Rocky:didn't understand all that had happened, but I knew I was on a new journey. And I just knew I wasn't the same, and and other people knew that I wasn't the same.
T. J.:Still living back in those early days of your faith, who were some of the people that shepherded you, that discipled you? Because when we enter into the new faith, we're hungry. We may not even know what we're hungry for in a spiritual sense, but, you know, we're looking for answers, we're looking for insight, we're looking for understanding, and what it means to live a life of Christian faith. Walk me through that, Rocky. You know, who who did you lean on and go to, and what was that like for you?
T. J.:Because my concern let me give you some context why I'm asking. My concern is, as Christians, we we often rely so much on somebody making a profession of faith, you know, to make a mark in a book or to tell other people that, oh, we had this many baptisms. But that is, you know, one step among many, many steps along the journey. And it's we we become very responsible for others who are new to the faith, You know? They they are part of our family.
T. J.:They are our sister, our brother. So who were your sisters and brothers during that time? Were they easy to find, or did you have to go seeking?
Rocky:You know, there's a certain part of me that's kind of a a loner. I'm a people person too. I'm definitely not a not an introvert. I I enjoy people and and love people for the most part, but I was involved in that Baptist church. And, like I say, it was around 300 people.
Rocky:And I I just immersed myself in there. There were some older gentlemen in there that that were, you know, older men in the faith. And one particular that I would mention, his name was Gordon Miller. Gordon Miller is probably one of the most dedicated Christian men I've ever known. He just his his whole life was just about Christ and no.
Rocky:I've never seen anybody with the dedication to the Lord that that man had. He he didn't even have any recreational hobbies because he would just tell you my recreation is doing the Lord's work. He was the type if he left on a Sunday night, he'd be back on Wednesday for church. If he left on a Thursday morning, he'd be back on a Sunday morning. He was that faithful, that dedicated.
Rocky:I've never seen that kind of dedication. And, and after I announced the call to preach, he always loved to hear me preach. And I think he's been a big influence on why why I'm a a biblical preacher and an an expounder of of the word because every time that I would get in the pulpit and I preached quite a bit at that Baptist church. For the for the end, I ministered a lot lot there. I was a pastor there.
Rocky:I was getting up in years and all. But every time I'd get in the pulpit, this gentleman would always tell me, preach the word. Preach the word. It was every time, and he was reiterating to me as a young man, stay with the word. Stay with the word.
Rocky:Because, you know, CJ, there's a lot of preaching. You know, you have to ask, you know, like they said at the tomb, where they laid our lord. You know? There's some preaching you have to ask where they laid our lord. And, you know, it's just void of biblical solid preaching.
Rocky:And I think this guy had a lot of influence. He'd call me every Sunday morning when I went out to pastor to give me a word of encouragement. And, but as far as having a lot of those people, I just kinda immersed myself in the word on the front end, and, I I I don't know. I I will say I will say something about about this that I mentioned to my congregation here at Bethesda. I know that we think that it's advantageous to be brought up in church and reared up in church and talk.
Rocky:And I'm not gonna say that that it's not. It it certainly can be. But I think also it can be sort of detrimental, especially if you've been brought up and you've had to go through a bad church experience and, some things like that. And I feel like in my case, I was an empty vessel. So when I got saved, I could come to the bible without any preconceived biases
T. J.:Mhmm.
Rocky:Without trying to find something in the Bible to to reinforce what I already believe because I was so empty. And so I in my own life, I don't know that it wasn't an advantage to me because I could come again and sit down with the word of God and not have not have you know, I often say by the time we get to the bible, we all have a theology. Mhmm. Whether you you whether you you know it or not, you do. It's either been what your grandparents taught you or what so and so told you or what you're but you already come to the bible with some preconceived ideas or some type theology.
Rocky:But for me, I think it I think it was advantageous, and I didn't really have to be deprogrammed from anything. And and I feel like that I got under just some good solid biblical preaching and teaching right off the get go. And so I think the fact that I was an empty vessel without all that preconceived biases and all that that had helped me. And thank God the friends that I did have were very solid biblically, and I was in a a, you know, so I never did really get over into a lot of foolishness as far as that goes. I always tried to study under, you know, biblical teachers.
Rocky:And then I started taking some of the the seminary things through the Southern Baptist Church, some of their seminary, things that were available. And and so my track just started like that.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Rocky:You know, going along that route, growing and staying in the word.
T. J.:Yeah. I guess everything was new, as you describe it. So, I mean, it it was like a new language as as maybe somebody who was born into a family that was, you know, regular attenders in the church and read scripture at home, prayed, had theological conversations. For you, everything was brand new. Yeah.
T. J.:Man, I bet you were like a sponge.
Rocky:Yeah. That that's that's true. I mean, I did. I remember just immersing myself in in the word of God. I I just loved it and couldn't get enough of it.
Rocky:And and, you know, I love to you know? And when I got the call to preach, I just it just seemed to be so natural and come so easy. And, yeah, all I can say is god had a plan because, again, I did everything I could to thwart the plan. But as you know, we can't thwart this plan.
T. J.:Rocky, let's take a break. Let's take a 2 minute break. So we were, talking about your, profession of faith. Now just because we become a Christian, we doesn't mean that we, all Christians, are called into ministry. Rocky, let's talk about your calling into ministry.
T. J.:You said earlier that there was about a year in between your profession of faith and then a calling in the ministry. So, I mean, you had a career. You enjoyed your work. Mhmm. Why ministry?
Rocky:I guess we've all got our our different hell of how we got there, and I don't know any other way to say it than I don't know. You you just, god had to place the desire there. Mhmm. It's certainly not a it's nothing, like, say, that that I aspired to do, and I just remember kind of battling that. And, like, say, it's been over 40 years now.
Rocky:But I I just remember battling even when I got the initial sense of I I would just be sitting in church, and I guess I had such a desire and consume the word and taking it in that, when the Jeremiah that said his word was shut up in my bones as a burning fire. And and and I would just be sitting in church, and I would just feel like I you know, I'm not supposed to be sitting here. I'm supposed to be up there, and I I don't I don't know any other way to explain it. But there for a while, I I I battled that call. So I didn't really, I didn't really necessarily wanna go that route.
Rocky:I think it was Spurgeon that said when people came to him, he would try to deter them away from the ministry. Oh, he said if you could deter them, they weren't called to start with. Right? Mhmm. Because if a man's called, he's going to he he's he's he's gonna get there now.
Rocky:Some, you know, god might bring in kicking and and struggling or whatever. But and then I I just finally remember going to that, the age minister of that Baptist church and just saying, hey. I I just feel like I'm supposed to be up there. I don't think I put in the terminology I feel like I'm called to preach. I said, I just think I'm supposed to be up there.
Rocky:And, he turned me loose, and and after that, it was just, you know, although I think sometimes all the way through your life, we're like, you know, was that really God that called me? You know? But but but after 40 years and a lot of funerals and a lot of weddings and a lot of ministry, I I I've enjoyed it, but it for the most part for the most part. But, that's just that's just how it happened. I just I don't know.
Rocky:I guess you just sense that internal I think we as Cumberland Presbyterian's, that was part of our beginning as we were stressing the inward call. Right? Yeah. People we wanted people to stress, you know, not just that we were wanting you to get a good education, but we want you also. And I think that's very important because I'm afraid today that there are people in ministry that maybe don't need to be there.
Rocky:I don't care how many degrees they have or or whatever if you've not since, And I I appreciate that about the Cumberland Church saying that, in their beginning that we wanna know that you've got an inward call and you sensed your call. And that I think that makes a difference because I've seen people go into ministry and fizzle out in no time. Maybe they were there because their granddad was a minister, and they come in the line or a succession, and they just feel they're obligated to do it. But for me, it it it very unlikely candidate, but it it was just something I couldn't get out of. I thought, god, if you're gonna scrape the bottom of the barrel, I'll I'll I'll do what I can.
T. J.:Yeah. As Cumberland Presbyterian, we have the the inward call and the external call as well.
Rocky:Yes.
T. J.:And the community of faith has to recognize that Rocky, TJ, whoever it may be, has gifts toward ministry that is worthwhile, worth exploring, and we will walk alongside him or her as they look at this call. And, so yeah. I think think also we have to have, affirmations. External affirmations, from individuals, family members, acquaintances, maybe even strangers.
Rocky:Yes. Exactly. Exactly. I agree a 100%, that there is just like the laying on of hands in the scripture. It it is there recognizing that you have been set apart.
Rocky:You have been gifted for this.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Rocky:You know, Paul telling or even reminding Timothy, Timothy, you don't neglect this gift you have, you know, that was given by the laying on of hands. So, yeah, you're exactly right that if we are called to ministry, then we will bear fruit that God has gifted us for that work. I agree. 10%.
T. J.:Yeah. Yeah. You and I would not be in the places that we are are and have an opportunities to serve if it wasn't a community of faith, and in our case, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, that recognized these gifts and these abilities within us. And I I like that. And it's also the same community that will pull me aside and say, hey, would you reconsider or think about what you did or didn't do or said or didn't say?
T. J.:You know, there's that accountability aspect as well that, comes with the community of faith so that Rocky can't just run off and do whatever Rocky wants to do, nor TJ and so forth and so on.
Rocky:And, again, my journey into the CP church surprised me. I appreciate they were very welcoming, working with me. I don't know. I just found a home there. Again, I like theology, and I don't know.
Rocky:I just found a good fit there. That's not to say that I, there's no denomination with that I that I would say that I certainly agree a 100% with all all the peripheral issues and all. But for me, Cumberland Presbyterian Church has the right message, and, there wasn't really any other avenues for me, actually. I don't guess there was really any any other avenue Mhmm. If I were going to leave the Southern Baptist.
Rocky:The most important thing to me was, the message of salvation by grace through faith. And, really, I don't know that there's a lot of lot of other ways to go besides the the Presbyterian, you know, faith. So, finally, I made the decision that that's where I need to be, so let's go for it. And we did.
T. J.:And you're still going?
Rocky:Still going.
T. J.:Rocky, you've had a lot of twists and turns in your life from teenage years up to present, career, family, and everything in between.
Rocky:Yes.
T. J.:And, you know, looking at your life today and in the past, how do you know that god is with you at all times? I mean, we've been talking about the past. How do you know that god is here with you today? How would you articulate that to someone who was like you in your late teens and early twenties?
Rocky:Well, I would I would say it like this. We have to get I'm all about the authority of the word of God and what the Bible says. I think it's detrimental to the Christian life is feelings, going on feelings. I hear that quite often. I feel this.
Rocky:I feel that. Do I do I always sense the presence of God? No. Do I always sense the presence of God? Do I always, no.
Rocky:But how do I know it? Well, I know it because the Bible tells me that his presence will be with me, and that's that's good enough. I mean, irregardless of of my subjective feelings, I take the the objective word of God, what it says. And, because we can't live our Christian life on fields. I mean, we have ups.
Rocky:We have downs. We have highs. We have lows. I'm 63, and I've gone through just about everything you can imagine in in life. And I think that gives me an opportunity to wit to to be a witness to other people because people are like, well, hey.
Rocky:You've not always been in the church. You know what it's like on the other side? And and I have been through a lot of things with kids. I have 3 grandkids. I've dealt with all that comes with kids and and their rebellion and dealing with some bad, bad things.
Rocky:And, there are some times that, just like we're talking about the audible voice of God, there are times that I would like to sense the presence of God a lot stronger than what I do. Mhmm. But one of my sayings is this, when you can't, when you can't see God's hand, you trust God's heart. And that's something I tell my people all the time, and I think there are a lot of times in life that you may not see God's hand. When you're going through things, you may not see God's hand at all, but you can always trust his heart that he has the best interest in in all for you.
Rocky:So I would have to tell anybody that we have to go on what the word of God says. That is the final authority. And when Jesus says, I'll be with you, until the end of the age, then I have to go with that even though on those days that I feel like he's a 1000000 miles away, and I feel like my prayers don't get any any higher than the ceiling. Do I what do I take at that point? Do I take and believe the word of God and rest my case there, or do I owe my feelings and all?
Rocky:And and and I just have to take what the word of God says, and that's what I would tell anybody else when they would start telling me, well, I don't feel this and I don't feel that. I'd say your feelings don't have anything to do with it. It's what the word of God says. You you we claim the word of God. We don't live the Christian life on feelings.
Rocky:We live the Christian life on faith and by what the word of God tells us.
T. J.:Rocky, you've had the unique opportunity to serve the church as a bivocational pastor and now full time pastor. Let's talk about the advantages and disadvantages through your experience of serving the church in in both ways, serving a local church in both ways?
Rocky:Well, I enjoyed bivocational. It did have its advantages. I would just basically, you know, do the work after after the the vocational work job was over. It did have its advantages on on not having to burden the church with with, you know, with them taking care of me because I could support myself in the same way. But, again, there was always, I always sorta had some regret that I that I didn't.
Rocky:I I sort of do things a little backwards, TJ. I've I've always done things the hard way in life. My my mother always told me, said, if you don't listen, you'll feel. I'm I'm pretty hardheaded, pretty, stubborn about things, and and I I did things you know, instead of going the traditional way Mhmm. And and, you know, going to college and then seminary and and buying.
Rocky:I just did it backwards. I mean, I went to work and then did the that on the other on on the on the backside. That was just the way it, you know, it worked out for me. But I think there was always within me, maybe a desire to do full time. And sometimes I look back, and I would think, boy, I really messed up by not because I started a family early on.
Rocky:And then before I knew it, I had I had more time on this job than what I could walk away from. Mhmm. No. And, luckily, as I said earlier, I did have a job that would complement the ministry. So it wasn't so so that helped out.
Rocky:But then, I don't know there, about 10 years ago, and I had a good job. You know? I had a I had worked my way up into the water system. I was purchasing agent there, and I dealt with sales and I and had a good job and really never thought I would, never thought thought I would leave there. And I love the the ministry at Bethesda and the church there.
Rocky:And but, I happened to get a call to, to a church in Morristown. And, it it was, ended up being a very difficult assignment, But I got that call there, and and I walked I decided that this was God telling me, I've been sort of like the children of Israel in some way. I've been wondering about 30 years. I mean, I'd still been doing the ministry and all, but I feel like my rebellion cost me about 30 years of wandering in the wilderness there. But, I felt like that God did say and, again, I had a good job and pretty well had it made, and it was it was difficult to walk away from a pretty good job and, and insurance, paid and all, but, this opportunity came up.
Rocky:And I just sensed that was God telling me that it's time now for you to leave the secular work and do this full time. And then I ended up doing that. Now being full time, it's certainly has its advantages that, you know, that I'm available and, anytime. And, you know, it's just enjoyable to to be available for the people and and to be able to commit my time to it. And, I still have a lot of flexibility with with the church.
Rocky:I I probably prefer being in a church like I am where we technically don't have an office with hours and all because I prefer this type where I'm in my office now. They know I'm available if they need me anytime. Mhmm. I don't know how well I would do in that particular setting to where I would have to be at the church, 5 or 6 hours a day. I I think I I think I fit better with what I do like this, and and my calling has always been more of I've got a shepherd's heart where I like being with people.
Rocky:I I don't really care much about the administrative part of the church, although I know it's necessary and we have to do it. But I wouldn't function well in the church where most of my responsibility was administrative. I prefer being with the people, learning them, and having a shepherd's heart like that. Mhmm. But, yeah, you're right.
Rocky:There are advantages and disadvantages. And I spent a season in bivocational, and, and I think it was productive. And now being in full time, it, you know, it's nice.
T. J.:Yeah. You have one focus in terms of a vocation, and I think that helps. But then on the other side, sometimes it's a help to be bivocational. So Yeah. That you're not solely focused on one thing.
T. J.:There are difficult difficult periods in life, and sometimes you need a break where you're not constantly being absorbed by it and immersed by it. And you can come back to it with, you know, clear head and clear eyes.
Rocky:Yeah.
T. J.:So I've done both. They both have advantages. They certainly do. And they both have some disadvantages.
Rocky:And let's be honest, ministry in today's world is, is getting to be more difficult.
T. J.:In what way? I'm not I'm not disagreeing with you, but just kind of expand on that thought.
Rocky:Well, you know, all denominations are are, you know, falling off number wise, and it just seems like, I don't know, sometimes the relevance of the local congregation seems to be sometimes maybe losing their relevance. You know, we have, you know, a problem with faithfulness and and this growing hostility toward the Christian message in our society. It's almost like any religion will be tolerated except the Christian faith. And, I don't know. And it just seems like that you know, I hear a lot of ministers leaving and and leaving the work and retiring, and it's a I don't know.
Rocky:It seems like the work's a whole lot different than what it was 40 years ago, but, I don't know. It's just it just seems to be a difficult work that, I don't know. It's just the environment. I guess it's the hostility toward the toward the faith, and I guess it's the lackadaisical attitude of of Christians at large that we're just not committed like we ought to be and trying to get work done in the church, and then you go to the small church, especially. And then you you've got that problem there of of 20% of the people doing 80% of the work, and, you know, you can't do all you'd like to get done, and you finally just have to settle settle for what you can get done.
Rocky:So, you know, there there are some there are some unique challenges, but we just gotta keep plugging away. Mhmm. Mhmm. Leave the results to him. You know?
Rocky:I like the old saying. It said, god didn't call me to be successful. He called me to be faithful. So, sometimes I think we gained success by the church. About the only way that people think about church success is how many are you having or driving by and seeing how many cars are sitting in the parking lot, and I don't think Jesus would necessarily equate church success to to that.
T. J.:Oh, yeah. I mean, most certainly, I would say those stresses I would add to your list is what many ministers I'll use the word feel, because I do believe they feel these pressures internally, externally.
Rocky:Yeah.
T. J.:If, you know, an individual, a minister's identity is wrapped up in the attendance and the participation in the body of Christ. My goodness. You're setting yourself up for great pain. Absolutely. You know, I think, even with my own family when we're going around, you know, where do you wanna eat?
T. J.:There there will not be an agreement on on that. So you expand that in you know, these are people that are you know, we love each other. You expand that number and go, oh, man. Who I am and what I do is predicated upon what others do. Yeah.
T. J.:Of course. I I would add that as a stressor. And, you know, if you are in that situation and you're and you're listening to this, man, do some evaluation and kinda think that through.
Rocky:You know? And you think about what we have to do. You think about the challenge of if you were a a teacher and you had to to have a curriculum for, 1st grade through twelves, the college level and teacher and you had them all together. You think about that, and through 40 years, I've heard everything, and I've dealt with some nonsense. But here, you've got a congregation of people that are at all different levels, and some are sitting there, and and they're in a 1st grade level.
Rocky:And if you get a little too deep in the scripture, then they're gonna feel like you've lost them preaching on it. Then you've got others that are more mature, and they're looking for, quote, the meat, unquote, of the word. And if you don't get deep enough, they get bored. And so it's it you think about that challenge of going out there and serving a meal that that's going to to make sure everybody gets fed and that. But it's like you're talking about for a man to assume that's my responsibility to grow the church and to do this.
Rocky:That's just a burden that no human being can bear.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Rocky:This is just one that no nobody can so I've had to break free a whole lot of of that, worrying about numbers and worrying about this and that and the other. And I I just had to get free of that and just understand that's not my responsibility. You know? God will send us who he wants us to have, and and then we'll just we'll go from there.
T. J.:The measurement that I've been using over the years in in my ministry when I've done something and I have that opportunity, I'm traveling back, and kind of do a self evaluation. And one of the questions I like to ask is, did I give everything that I had to give in that moment? All of me, all of my attention, all of my ability, did I bring everything that I could into that moment?
Rocky:Right.
T. J.:Because what more do I have to offer? I I really don't. And so it's changed I'm sure you can frame the question better than me, but it's changed how I look at and how I perceive and how I grow in my ministry is, what am I bringing? Did I bring all of me, all of my understanding, my a game? And if I didn't, why didn't I do that?
Rocky:Yeah. And
T. J.:then and then if it's like a repeated thing, then there's an even more deeper kind of, introspective conversation to have is, why am I not bringing the best that I have to offer to the table?
Rocky:Well and, you know, sometimes, I think I think we pastors can get caught up in in in doing so much that we forget about being. And sometimes, due to the demands upon us, if our if our private lives and our devotional lives suffer, that's going to affect us, which in turn, the congregation is going to be affected. And and and, you know, good and well, that can happen. I've had weeks where I've had maybe 2 or 3 funerals. I remember 1 week, I I was I don't seem like I had 3 or 4 funerals in 1 week.
Rocky:And, know, when you have weeks like that that are so demanding, your own life can can suffer. And I think we have to get to the point that that we understand that our own we have to minister to us. Mhmm. You can't minister to others when you yourself are suffering. So if you're if you're being deprived and you're just doing, doing, doing all the time, and and I get called up in that sometimes, and I find myself not being able to, spend time in my own life.
Rocky:So that that's that's a bad toxic thing that can happen Mhmm. To ministers. You can get to the end of the week, and you're like, well, I've got everything done. Well, yeah. But what about your own spiritual life and your own time and your own you know, has your have you suffered yourself on the account of giving yourself to to these things that had to be, quote, done, unquote?
T. J.:And I think I think we also have to be self aware. We are in seasons. We have seasons where, you know, your sermon preparation to delivery, it stinks. Oh, yeah. Your your Bible study, your writings, your pastoral visits, you know, where they just don't click, you don't interact, or able to connect in ways that you did the previous time you visit the individual.
T. J.:And just be aware that, man, these things happen. And if you can pinpoint why, you'll be better off the next time. But sometimes, you just gotta ride it through, and it could be it could be a week, could be a month, could be several months.
Rocky:What's the old saying? Fake it till you make it?
T. J.:Yeah. I I'm reluctant to use that one because
Rocky:I know. Yeah.
T. J.:But you
Rocky:you go through the motions is what I'm saying.
T. J.:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the last thing I need to do
Rocky:is be fake. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes you're just going through the motions, and maybe your heart's not all the way. You know you know what I'm saying? Your heart's not all the way there.
Rocky:And and you're you're just you're just going through especially when we fall in these seasons of spiritual deprivation or whatever. And, you know, whether you're up on the mountain or whether you're down in the valley, the ministry has to go off.
T. J.:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Rocky:And oh, yeah. That's not the best way to say, fake it or make it, but, but I'm I'm just talking about their times that it don't matter. Somebody said, you know, sometimes I preach, you know, sometimes I've got a sermon at 11 o'clock, and sometimes I just preach because it's 11 o'clock. You know? And that's not a good way to look at it, but I mean, I I'm expected to preach at at 11 o'clock and, you know, but but the point is that there are things that sometimes you just gotta we got responsibilities.
Rocky:And whether we're high or low, we gotta be in season, instant in season, out of season. Yeah. And spiritually speaking, we may feel out of season, but the work's gotta go on. You know? Mhmm.
Rocky:Thank god I thank god understands that. Sometimes we can get that Elijah where he went out and sat down under the tree and just, you know, said, god, I've just had enough. And I I think I think when god sees us trudging through and maybe sees our lack of zeal and things that I think he just understands that we get weary and and the workload gets heavy sometimes.
T. J.:Yeah. Well, let's expand our conversation. We've we've been talking about, our individual ministries, past and present, and the joys, the concerns, the weathering, the seasons. Let's talk about the the wonderful church that we serve, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And, Rocky, you've got a unique perspective.
T. J.:It's one of the reasons that I wanted to ask you to come on the podcast is someone who has experience in another denomination and also in this denomination, you may have some insight of like, what Cumberland Presbyterian as a denomination were doing really well, and also talk about some of the areas where we could shore up some of our weaknesses.
Rocky:Well, again, I would say the strength of the church that appealed to me is is the solid biblical theology, which which is of utmost importance. You know, I think we talk a lot of times about we probably could do better on our connectional nature of the church, reaching out to each other and things like that because, you know, I've I've seen some churches and especially maybe some of the smaller congregations that feel like that they're just totally outcast. And sometimes you can, you know, I've been assigned to maybe moderate a church and you contact them, and they're like, well, hey. We've not heard from anybody, and and they're they're even resistant to that. So I I I think that the connectional nature of the church might we might work on a little bit.
Rocky:The thing thing it concerns me the most, just to be honest about it, is is the authority the authority of the Bible and and biblical biblical preaching. That is a that's a stickler for me that, living in in a world of of compromise in a a world where we're being asked to to compromise the word of God, I I just hope that that we will have ministers that will say that I'm standing on the authority of the bible and, regardless of what comes or goes. Because, you know, I'm really Presbyterianism was was born out of strong evangelistic preaching and biblical preaching, and we just don't need to get away from that. The church in our day, you know, I'm from the old school teaching a little bit. You know, cultural relevance.
Rocky:I think we ought to be the church. I think sometimes we worry maybe a little too much about being culturally relevant. We're we're not going to get along with the world. The Bible says, Jesus said, remember, if the world hates you, hated me first. We're not to make peace with the world.
Rocky:We're not to to to make affiliations to the world. And it troubles me that sometimes I say it like this. Not not all church business is kingdom business. And I think there's a big difference in church business and kingdom business. And sometimes, I'm afraid, afraid, we get caught up in a whole lot of church business that maybe doesn't have anything to do with kingdom business.
Rocky:And, you know, the the business of the kingdom is winning pea people to Christ, discipling them. And, so I just hope in the days ahead, and we're all going through this difficult time, of dealing with things. One thing about our church is not being known well. I remember when I was serving in Morristown, I could go out and and people have a mentality that, I guess you've gotta go to heaven through the Baptist church because when I would go out and witness to people and say, well, I'm the pastor of the Cumberland Presbyterian. People almost got their garlic out and their their, you know, their, like, what?
Rocky:So, you know, I don't know. And and they would always come back, well, you know, if I go to church, I'm gonna go to the Baptist church, dada dada. I guess it's just familiarity. So, so I don't know. That deal right there where maybe people becoming more familiar with who we are, and I just think I I just hope we take a stand on the authority of the Bible in this difficult day, and we still stress the the the the the the love and the the connectivity of the church and and the gospel and the whosoever will that, you know, you're invited to come.
Rocky:But you're invited to come as you are, but not stay as you are. You know? That Jesus will help you to clean clean the mess up, and so I'm glad to be part of the church again. It's made me feel at home, and I think we do a lot of good work. I think I think the church does does a lot of good work, and, you know, I I just, I just hope we navigate the difficult days effectively.
Rocky:And But at the end of the day, it all comes down to we just not stand on the authority of the Bible and and let what happens happen.
T. J.:Well, I think you using the phrase, you know, repeatedly the pronoun we, we, and, you know, the connectional nature, interpretation of the scriptures, living out the scriptures, the strongest message that we can convey is when we do those together, not individually and not separately. I think formats like this, like you and I are having today, being in conversation and discussion with one another, being able to ask questions, being exposed to ideas, thoughts, approaches, Even some of the phrases that you've shared with me, I hadn't heard before, and they've made me chuckle a time or 2. But in doing so, it makes me think of how that connects to the scripture. And so the best way to be able to do that is to intentionally carve out time to be in one another's presence, even if it's through Zoom like we're using right now, but spending time with each other to be able to grow together and get a better understanding. I have to be able to live in Rocky's shoes to understand Rocky and his ministry and and where where he's come from and where he's going.
T. J.:And you are doing the same with me today. And and and building upon an early interaction from or going on 20 years ago up until now, and I now I know you better than I certainly did 20 years ago and 10 years ago, even 5 years ago. True. And the only way I can do that is to be in your presence.
Rocky:I think that's I think that's great. I I think the church has been aware of, that we've had some failure in in the connection issue, and I think that's why some things, you know, are being done. I hear things talked about. Sometimes at our church, we're a little bad about, talking about things and then putting shoe leather on those ideas and, you know, putting. And you'll hear me say some things you probably hadn't heard before.
Rocky:That's a that's a fact. But, you know, having an idea but putting leather on that idea to work, it it takes takes off. Sometimes we we struggle with that a little bit, where where I'm at, but we, but, yeah, I think you're right. There's there's not enough fellowship among Christians. And sometimes we come together, and we fellowship for an hour on Sunday, and then Mhmm.
Rocky:That's about it. And I may not see you anymore. And and there there ought to be a a zeal, a zealousness to be with God's people and to be to be growing together in the unity and, you know, all this divisiveness that's trying to creep into the church is just not is not good. It's just not good. But I don't know.
T. J.:I like the word I
Rocky:think what you're doing here is a great idea.
T. J.:Yeah. I'm trying to live it out, and I I like the word that you used, the the zealous, and the zeal. Our constitution uses that in our ordination, questions. You know, a zeal for God, a zeal for Christ.
Rocky:Yes.
T. J.:And and to expand that, the zeal to be in the presence of a friend, a coworker, an acquaintance, a loved one, a stranger. It it pulls away the you know, maybe in extreme cases, the monster that we've made somebody into, and they never were a monster to begin with, but we've made them made them this monster that they are. And and, I mean, it it provides those opportunities for bonding and my faith in Jesus Christ is a relationship. And for me to share that relationship with you, I have to build one with you. And you've alluded to this already, you know, the difficulties in the world and in in ministry and in interactions with other human beings.
T. J.:Maybe it's gonna take a little more time, and maybe we have to be a little more intentional. But that's okay because that's what you and I and are called to do.
Rocky:That's true. That's true. That's a great observation.
T. J.:Rocky, what else are you reading besides diving deep into the scriptures?
Rocky:Well, as you can see behind me, I've got, I've got several books that I've never read. I'll I'll I'll read a chapter. I don't know what any of them read through to their entirety, if you know what I mean. But I I I used to be more of a a zealous reader than what I am now, but, I I love I, like Charles Stanley made the statement that, the works of Oswald Chambers, not his not most for his highest. I think I heard Stanley make statements probably outside the Bible that those works that had a more profound work, you you know, influencing his life than most anything.
Rocky:And I,
T. J.:you
Rocky:know, I do I do a lot of reading, and I like biographies. I like, you know, biblical biographies and looking at the lives of great Christians and some of the reformers and things like that and just just a whole variety of of reads. But, you know, you can only read so much, and after a while, nothing will feed you like the word of God. I'm I'm glad I'm glad for all all the great spiritual giants that God has allowed to come across the landscape of history. You know, they enrich our lives and all, but sometimes I have to find myself getting back to just the just the word word of God itself.
Rocky:And and I like to read, but, but I don't know. It's just a variety of things.
T. J.:Rocky, when you read the scriptures, do you, do you use commentaries? Do you pull those out as well, or do you, look at, some of the other people's writings, their interpretations of the scriptures, or you just the old and new testament by itself?
Rocky:No. No. No. I I I think that God has given us all these resources to use, and I think it would be foolish not to use them now. Again, I like for the Holy Spirit to speak to me and give me some originality.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Rocky:And and sometimes I will do that before I I go to these other things. But, no, I have I may read 25 or 30 commentaries on a verse, and I like to see what the consensus is, and there are certain respected biblical authors that I have confidence in that I would probably lean more toward
T. J.:Mhmm.
Rocky:Toward their interpretation. Although we're all human and all fallible. But I do have my resources that if I were going to take an interpretation, it would probably influence me to to lean that way more. But, yeah, I absolutely avail myself of, of all of all the the helps that are out there and spiritual giants that God has given us. And I I think it'd be foolish not to do that.
Rocky:You know? I'm and I try to stay well read up. And, now when you're preaching and teaching 2 or 3 times a week, you got to have quite a bit of quite a bit of material. Mhmm. Now that doesn't mean sometimes I may just be led to take to take a a scripture and preach it temporarily on it.
Rocky:Oddly enough, until recently, I never even used notes. I always had a good memory, and, and I could just take a a one verse and talk on it for 30 minutes and not have a problem. In recent years, I have gotten to where I, you know, I use more notes and things. Not necessarily, I don't think, because I have to, but I don't know. I've just sort of got to where we're doing it.
Rocky:Here at the church I'm at now, we have a higher point and things. But so if there are quotes that people have made or things, I still like to stick with the word. I still don't like to deviate into a lot of a lot of other things. I like to stick with the text. So when people leave, they say, well, I know what that text said.
Rocky:I don't like to take that text and then chase a 1,000 rabbit trails. But but to answer your question, yes. I I do avail myself. I'm not so arrogant to think that I couldn't avail myself of all of all the opportunities of of these learned people.
T. J.:Yes. Rocky, I've enjoyed our conversation today. You've made me laugh.
Rocky:Use some of those East Tennessee, lingo terms. Right? Like chasing rabbit trails.
T. J.:I I miss them. I I I truly do. I, I I try to avail myself of every opportunity to get back out to East Tennessee. But, yeah, you've made me laugh, you've made me think, and, you've also given me the opportunity to sit back and enjoy hearing God work through another person's life. And it's it's a privilege to be able to be on this end and, engage in conversation with you and with others.
Rocky:Well, we we've been here at Liberty now starting, I guess, starting 10 years. It's it's hard to believe. We we have a good repertoire with the congregation. I actually came down here the 1st 6 months by myself.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Rocky:Because I had I had gone through sort of a bad church ordeal. And I just told them when I came down here, I said, I'm not going through the sausage grinder again. I said, until we met and said until we find out if this is gonna work. And I did. I left my family back in East Tennessee, and I moved down here.
Rocky:And for 6 months, I said, we'll we'll see how the fit Mhmm. Is. And I don't know. That might sound like sort of moving in together. But we sorta in one way moved in together for 6 months and, and tried it out.
Rocky:But, it's I think maybe the first of the year will be starting 10 years, and it, it it's it's been a good adventure. And and I've got a good church, and we don't have a lot of drama to deal with. And we get along well, and and we just stress the importance of our church, a biblical preaching. We we keep it simple. I tell people that come if you're interested in in a lot of other things, a lot of thrills and thrills, we're probably not the church for you.
Rocky:If you're interested in studying the word of God, learning it, then you'll like it here. But, but, again, I I appreciate you considering me, for the interview, and I've always saw a lot of you. Appreciate the work you do for the denomination. You always do a awesome job. And I was just tickled, when you called me and, and asked me to do this.
Rocky:I look forward to it.
T. J.:Wow. Man, Rocky, I've enjoyed it. And, again, I'm glad to be able to share with others how god is using you and has worked through you. So thank you, Rocky.
Rocky:TJ enjoyed it. Thanks again for having me on.
T. J.:Thank you for listening to this episode of the Cumberland Road. Check out the previous guest who, like Rocky, have shared their faith. In our conversation, Rocky emphasized the authority of scriptures. Afterward, I was pondering this theme and was wondering if approaching the scriptures for the first time or in a long time, where do we begin? What is the main theme or the thrust or the emphasis of the old and new testaments? A similar question was posed to Jesus, and he said, the most important one is this, hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is 1. Love the lord your god with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. The second is this, love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.
