Ron McMillan - Retirement, Writing, Preaching Styles, & Christian Education
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I am your host TJ Malinoski. My guest for this episode is reverend doctor Ron McMillan, Cumberland Presbyterian minister. In our conversation, we cover a large swath of different topics. We talk about Ron's faith, how he come to know Christ. We talk about his calling in the ministry, what retirement is like and his challenges that come with it. We talk about preaching styles and this hobby of writing a novel. My friends, I hope you enjoy this faith conversation with Ron McMillan.
T.J.:Ron, we talked on the phone, prior to this conversation, and you had mentioned retirement. I think this is a great place for us to start our conversation. So can ministers retire, and what does that look like? Are we allowed to retire?
Ron:Well, yes and no. As a friend of mine tells me, I give retirement a bad name. By that, the person means, I may be retired, but I'm not retired. Now, to kind of give you some background, I'd had 2 heart attacks and I wasn't able to pastor like I felt one should pastor. And I took that as a sign that God was ready for me to move on.
Ron:Now, while I've moved on from senior pastor, I haven't moved on from ministry. I don't think you ever do. If you have a calling, as the old quip is, retirement's not in the Bible. We've all heard that. Well, in a way, that's true.
Ron:You know, I still pastor. I fill pulpits. I love that. I'm interim at the Bolivar Church right now, but, I really just enjoy filling pulpits most of all.
T.J.:Yeah. I would think that the your approach to ministry, your practice to ministry changes in your vocation, but the calling is still there. It's just going to look different.
Ron:Oh, without a doubt, sure. But isn't that the way life is? Different times in life, we minister in different ways, we we are different people in a lot of different ways. So, you know, when I was young, I did a lot of youth ministry. I was a youth minister off and on for 4 years, and then when I took my 1st pastorate, I I spent a lot of time with youth.
Ron:When I was 50 years old, hey. You know, crawling around on the floor with a bunch of kids playing, what is that game where you, you know, Twister. Yeah. Twister. Yeah.
Ron:No. Not gonna happen. Arthritis are gonna make sure. So different times in life are different different things, but I very much enjoy meeting the new people, filling the pulpit. I really enjoy that.
Ron:It's a great time. But, on the subject of retirement, let me give a word of advice to all my friends. I have several friends retiring in the last year or 2 or getting ready to retire. Have something you want to do. When I retired from Holly Grove, they had a big celebration, all this stuff, you know, a cake, the whole bit.
Ron:Invited people back from my former pastor. So I didn't have that many, but several of them. And so that was on Sunday night. Monday morning at 10 o'clock, I sat down in the back booth of a, Burger King with my laptop and began writing my first novel. I had no idea it was gonna be a novel, but I had been an avid reader my whole life.
Ron:And as any reader, you think about a plot and you think, well, I wouldn't do it that way. I'd end it here. He rushed the ending, this kind of stuff. And so I would, in my mind, think about different way to do it. You know, it's just just something to think about as you drive or something.
Ron:So I had this idea in mind, and during my second heart attack, I was in intensive care and I asked the nurse for a piece of paper. And I began writing out a plot. What are you doing in intensive care? You know, I kept that. And when I retired, I just thought, I wanna get it out of my mind.
Ron:I wanna exercise this idea. And so I began to write. The more I wrote, the more I wanted to write well. I began to read books on writing. I began to go to writer's groups.
Ron:I began to go to writer's conferences, and it's become a great pleasure for me. So my point here is, find something you want to do. It is your chance to remake yourself. Do something that expands who you are. Where
T.J.:are you in that novel?
Ron:Oh, I'm on my third one now.
T.J.:Oh, okay. Alright.
Ron:None of them published. I have published 2 short stories. 1 in an anthology, and one will come out in something like January, February, March, they haven't told me when, on an online magazine. So I've done that. And I'm talking to some people about publishing.
Ron:But you have to understand, publishing is quite different than it used to be. People don't realize that. While there are 100 of imprints, that's the name on the back, spine of the book. There are only 4 publishers in the United States. There's 5, but number 5 is being merged with number 4.
Ron:So for all intents and purposes. In I don't know about the United States, but in Great Britain, in England alone, not Great Britain, England, there are over 500,000 novels submitted to publishers every year. And how many do they publish? 3 or 400, maybe? 500?
Ron:I don't know. But you are I often tell people you are much more likely to be hit by lightning than publish. But that's why Amazon has changed the whole thing, and that's why publishers are dying. The publishing industry, as we knew it 20 years ago, is just about dead, because if you publish with, one of the major ones, if you are a major writer, you might get 10% of the net of the book. That means if they send it to Barnes and Noble, for $8, you get 80¢.
Ron:But they don't pay you that 80¢ until, the end of the year. Whereas if you go with Amazon, they pay you 70% and pay you every quarter. So your professional writers are all moving toward Amazon.
T.J.:Yeah.
Ron:And, hopefully, somebody else will, will rise up to compete with Amazon because I just went to Las Vegas to a big one, 20 books. And, Amazon was there. They had a huge table and everything. But they they are the, you know, 600 pound gorilla. They just set anywhere they want to, you know.
Ron:And, and so we really need some people to rise up and compete with them. Right.
T.J.:Yeah. You need the competition.
Ron:Yeah.
T.J.:But there's an advantage there because you can print on demand.
Ron:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:And yeah. So it will be interesting to see how that changes the book publishing industry. It's so much easier now for an author to be able to go and experiment on their own Yeah. Than it was 30 years ago.
Ron:People don't realize that there are over 10,000 subgenres on Amazon.
T.J.:Good
Ron:grief. Over 10,000. Blue Ridge Conference, which is the big Christian writers conference. Realm Makers is the big Christian Science Fiction and Fantasy Conference, but but Blue Ridge is your big Christian, general Christian. And, they were were were talking about 10,000 different subgenres.
Ron:You know, people like to say I was bestseller on Amazon. What you do is you write to a subgenre where there's only 3 or 4 different books in it. And then you have your friends buy the book, and suddenly you are a best seller on Amazon. It means absolutely nothing. But but people enjoy saying it.
Ron:Hey. I would if I ever got it, I'd do it too, but, you know, hey. So that's how you become a best seller on Amazon.
T.J.:Got it. Okay. I understand now.
Ron:If you can see, it has become a real love of mine. Yeah.
T.J.:Let's talk about let's talk about retirement a little bit. What if, Ron, an individual's identity is wrapped into their vocation? And in our case, it's ministry, but it didn't necessarily have to be. And then you have to retire either by choice or health or circumstances. What advice do you have?
T.J.:Because that can really really shake you if who I am is and especially in ministry. If who I am is my faith and my calling, and then I'm no longer fulfilling those callings, those responsibilities, what path do you would you advise to avoid, I don't know, some very dark days I guess? Sure.
Ron:Yeah. Well, you have to be ready to retire. And, you know, you have to you know? And each person gets there in a different way or a different place. But I was ready to retire because I couldn't minister the way I wanted to.
Ron:I didn't have the stamina. I've always been a, 60 hour a week pastor, you know, in the hospital 5 days a week, that kind of thing, while on the other hand, wanting to be a a fairly good preacher. So you
T.J.:you could see and feel Yeah. The that you what you were bringing to the table was changing.
Ron:Yeah. I I was I was frustrated in that I couldn't do what I wanted to do. And so if I couldn't do it right, I didn't wanna do it. But other people find it a different way. But you have to find you have to be ready.
Ron:You've got to think about it for several years, get yourself psyched up to it, and then have a plan. The absolute worst thing you can do is just sit. It may be travel. My wife and I have traveled quite a bit. One of our biggies was we swapped homes with a couple from Tintardon, England.
Ron:I'm a big history guy and I've always wanted to live in a little village in England. So I got on one of the websites where you swap houses, and I found a couple that wanted to come to Memphis. Why? I have no idea. I I wondered if they might not be big Elvis fans, but they never said.
Ron:And and, so we went to England and lived there for 3 weeks. We would travel 2, 2 to 3 days all over England, went to Scotland, went to Paris, all of this. And, then we would come. We'd rest for a day. I would go down to they don't have main streets.
Ron:They have High Street. Main Street is called High Street, and they loved their coffee shops. And I would sit in a coffee shop and talk to all the locals and just chat about this and that, or when nobody's around, I'd write write on a novel. And then Nina would come down. We'd have lunch in a different restaurant.
Ron:She'd go back, and I'd find another coffee shop. And I I had it was a great thing. I loved it. One of the biggies was that I got connected with an archaeologist that was doing a tour of Stonehenge. And so we went with an archaeologist to Stonehenge and it was great.
Ron:Yeah.
T.J.:Well, let's start with your faith. Okay. Was there a time when you didn't you didn't know Jesus Christ as your lord and savior?
Ron:Well, of course, with everyone, there is a moment of of, of surrender. But as I was preparing to come to this, I was thinking about something. And the main spiritual event in my life was something I had virtually nothing to do with. And I've only shared this maybe a half a dozen times in 75 years. It's something very, very personal, and I I just I just don't share it.
Ron:But I felt led to do it today. Maybe it's because I'm getting old, to a point where I feel I won't be able to. You know? 75, you know, it's only a certain number of days. But I was what was called a blue baby.
Ron:Today, people don't even understand what that means.
T.J.:Yeah. What is a blue baby?
Ron:Okay. What it is, there is a little flap in your heart that before birth, it lets the blood circulate without going through the lungs. At birth, it closes up and the and forces the blood through your lungs. Mine didn't close right, And so I would have these episodes where I just wasn't getting any oxygen at all. I'd turn blue.
Ron:That's why I called it blue baby. So this was 1947, 1948. And my parents later told me they took me to a specialist in Kansas City, and he said, you know, that if I lived to be 6 years old, they would do one of the first open heart trans open heart surgeries they'll ever have ever done if I made it to 6, which most of them didn't make it past 2 or 3. Few did, but they were very sickly. So they brought me home and laid me on the bed, they told me, and they prayed and gave me to the lord and said that if, if god would heal me, they would dedicate me to the lord.
T.J.:Now were they practicing Christians?
Ron:Oh, yes. Yes. Very strong. Yeah. Yeah.
Ron:Yeah. My my grandfather was pastor of my home church. Yeah.
T.J.:Okay.
Ron:Yeah. Oh, big time. Yeah. And so from that day on, I never had another episode. Never.
Ron:You know? And, anybody that looks at me can't believe, you know, hey, he almost died at 1 years old. But they didn't tell me, but they decided that would be too much pressure for a child. And so they just simply kept me in the church all the time, you know, anything so that I would be available. And I was at Bethel and, felt led at the 1st CP church there in McKenzie to surrender to the ministry.
Ron:And when I called my folks that night and told them, they began to cry. And they told me for the first time what had happened. Of course, I'd known I was a blue baby, but I didn't know the story of of that. So in a way, I I I had that from from nearly, you know, birth. But, I accepted the Lord at 6a half, something like that.
Ron:You know, my grandfather was our pastor. Dad was an elder. My grandfather McMillan was an elder, you know, the whole bit.
T.J.:And you grew up in a church in Missouri. Yeah. And correct me if I'm wrong, there's a congregation there. You'll be able to help me with the name. For.
T.J.:That, the the organ is almost the centerpiece within the sanctuary. So, it was put
Ron:in an 18/80 something if I remember right.
T.J.:Yeah. Let's this is kind of a sidebar.
Ron:Yeah.
T.J.:But let's talk about that for a minute because it's, I've been there one time, it's a congregation, it's a sanctuary that actually has a balcony on two sides. But how do they get this huge organ in the middle of the sanctuary? Do they build the building around it?
Ron:No. I I, of course, I don't know for sure. But my understanding is that the organ was put in, several years after the it's a German organ. If you go in the back of it, there there is a metal holder where the wooden handle went on and the boys of the congregation would pump the organ. Wow.
Ron:You know? And and then, of course, in, later years, they put in an electric blower. But, yeah, if you will look in the ceiling of the, of the sanctuary, which is very, very high, there are hooks and those hooks had pulleys on them, I'm told, and they would lower the chandeliers to light the gas lights, the the kerosene lights, and then pull them back up. And the hooks are still up there in the in the ceiling. Yeah.
T.J.:So you grew up in the Warrensburg church. Mhmm. And your grandfather was the minister there.
Ron:W o Weyman.
T.J.:So talk about those those years of running around in the church and having access to it and just kinda growing up in that atmosphere because not a lot of people have that opportunity. Not a lot of people have that experience.
Ron:When I was 5a half, my mother was, was on staff and she said, to be able to come, I have to bring my child. And so they gave her a cabin off to the side, and I remember playing in the little stream down there catching crow crawdads. So I started church camp when I was 5a half and never missed a church camp until I was up in my forties.
T.J.:That's a pretty good record. Yep. Alright. You had mentioned, attending Bethel College. Yeah.
T.J.:Now it's called Bethel University. What before your calling to ministry, what drew you to the school? What plans did you have? What ambitions did you have? What was your first thought of career?
Ron:Well, I had no idea really what I wanted to do. I actually wanted to go into ministry but didn't feel I had a calling. And so, later in in my college career, I I felt a internal calling, I guess you would say. One of the things which many of my friends would not perceive about me is I had in my junior high years, I had a horrible, horrible inferiority complex, just just incredibly bad. And, one of the great events yeah.
Ron:You wouldn't you wouldn't think so. But yeah. Yeah. I did. And so the idea of me preaching to anyone was just an anathema.
Ron:Why would anyone want to hear anything that Ron McMillan would say? Well, later I found out they really don't care to hear anything Ron McMillan wants to say. They wanna hear what god says. And so, you know, I try to stay very close to scripture because it's not about me. It's it it's about what God says.
Ron:But, yeah, that was something I struggled with. My mother used to say in, my latter in my forties, she would come and hear me preach, and she would say, I don't know who you are, but you're not the boy I raised. Because I had such self confidence and and, I was a strong leader, etcetera, etcetera. And, of course, in my junior high years, I I I I had no confidence at all.
T.J.:What was the turning point at Bethel? I mean, you said you had the internal call, but you didn't respond to it. What changed?
Ron:Well, I I've. It was during the denominational day service, And reverend Forrester, who was the pastor in those times, Edna Jean, you remember her, He preached on call to ministry, and and I really just felt this is what God wants me to do. And I went forward and so on. Just that nudge you just needed
T.J.:you needed to hear. Because
Ron:there was nothing I ever liked more than just being around Christians. You know, I I just when I was around Christians, I just felt at home. I I I just didn't enjoy the secular world. The I I love, you know, the world as much as anybody else. But that's where I felt fulfilled.
Ron:That's where I felt at ease around Christians. And so I want to be around Christians.
T.J.:Yeah. There is. There's a comfort level, and it's even a maybe a safety net because you know that there's common ground.
Ron:I would I would go to the common ground more than the safety net. For example, going back to my my, writing, I go to several different writers groups. But 2 of the bigger ones, one is a Christian writers group, But, frankly, many of them, though some of them do, don't take their writing very seriously. But then I go to a secular group, and, they take their writing very seriously, but I don't enjoy the people as that much, you know. They just have different wants and desires for myself.
Ron:And so I've often reflected on the 2 groups. I really enjoy the people in the Christian group, and the people in the secular group are fine. I enjoy them too, but I don't feel this at home. It's just, you know, I'm a Christian. I like to be around Christians.
T.J.:So you receive the call, accept the call into ministry while you're at Bethel?
Ron:Yes.
T.J.:Then what happened?
Ron:I still had a lot of that inferiority. I couldn't believe anybody would wanna hear anything I had to say. Mhmm. So I went my 1st year to MTS. And in looking at the catalog, I saw that the Presbyterian School of Christian Education, would honor that 1st year and I could I could transfer.
Ron:And so I transferred to Richmond. It's now part of Union Theological Seminary. It's no longer a separate institution. And, did a master's in Christian education then came back, finished my MDiv, and, god had other plans. I had envisioned myself going into Christian education, but he immediately thrust me into the pulpit.
Ron:I will say this, I never preached a sermon I liked until I was 40 years old. I always felt I always felt it would there was more to, you know, to learn. There was more to understand. And, at about 40, I guess I passed the kind of threshold and decided it was at least adequate.
T.J.:Yeah. Let's let's go deeper. What is what do you mean by liked, As in, like, satisfied with what the delivery, the content?
Ron:Everything. You know, I still don't think I'm a good, good preacher. I don't believe I have the the spiritual gift of preaching or evangelism. I am a teacher. God has given me a, the spiritual gift of teaching.
Ron:So if you listen to my sermons, while there's an evangelistic component, there is a strong teaching component to it. It it's mainly a lesson in a lot of ways. Do you know the difference between teaching and preaching? Okay. Here's what I've decided for me.
Ron:Teaching is to inform, preaching is to persuade. The purpose of the 2 are quite different. And so I have a strong sense of of, teaching because I think that's my spiritual gift.
T.J.:Yeah. Now what they have in common is they're both sharing they're both sharing information.
Ron:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. But their purpose is different.
Ron:In a Sunday school class, you wanna persuade, but your main purpose is to inform. And then the information will persuade. In preaching, you want to inform, but you have a goal in mind. You want some good preaching always has a component of this is what I want you to do.
T.J.:In advance If
Ron:you don't do that, people will realize that sometimes they'll leave at service and they'll say, oh, that wasn't a very good sermon. And it may be you didn't have a purpose.
T.J.:An evangelistic sermon requires a response.
Ron:Sure.
T.J.:A teaching sermon, a pastorally sermon, those can be more passive because you're conveying information, and the minimum mask is the listening ear.
Ron:Yeah. But people want you to tell them in a sermon. That's why a lot of people have problems. They don't realize people want you to to tell them something they need to do different in their life. You need to be more loving.
Ron:You need to be more compassionate. You need to reach out to the unsaved. There's always a purpose in that. Now an evangelistic teaching might say, okay, here's how you share the plan of salvation, etcetera, etcetera. Now you might even say you need to go out and practice this, etcetera, etcetera.
Ron:But a sermon would say you need to do it. There there is a component to that.
T.J.:Spending years on
Ron:Of course, that's just for me. Everybody's got a different way to look at it and that's fine. But to me, that that when I'd say that's what changed.
T.J.:Before 40, I was just teaching. After 40, I began to say, this is the response you should have. So not only would your style of preaching would convey information, but it would also be it'd have ascending element to
Ron:the world. Sending element. Yeah.
T.J.:Yeah.
Ron:Yeah. It wouldn't just be the concept of love, it would be the admonition to love. That would be the difference.
T.J.:And giving giving concrete examples as well, contemporary concrete examples, help guide, I think, the listening ear. So to be able to take a a concept like love or discipleship, those could be pretty complex.
Ron:Sure.
T.J.:And to be able to persuade Right. On a level to where you have various levels of listening and attention and but also sending, I think, people out with encouragement as well. I don't think I could take, sermons where, you're wrong, and this is where you're wrong, and this is where you need to change. I don't know if I could
Ron:handle that every week. I say you're wrong, but I would say, you know, that's why I mentioned staying so close to scripture. If anybody says that's Ron McMillan's idea, then I failed. You know? I I I I preach a modified form of expository sermons, if if you, you know.
Ron:And I call it modified because I always begin with a parable, because Jesus used parables. I draw it from life, but it's a parable. I use 2 or 3 different people to to create the story and always end with a question. How to how do you love the unlovable? And then I would go down and I'd I'd do 3 or 4 points.
Ron:Now the reason you usually end up with 3 points is that's just about all you can cover in the time period. It isn't There's nothing sacred about 3 points, but if you go to 5, you haven't really covered the points. You know? And and so 3 is just about all you I used to wonder, why 3 points? Oh, that's just about all the time you got.
Ron:You know?
T.J.:Right. Right. The attention scale Yeah. Starts to dip down as each minute ticks by. Ron, you were saying earlier that your your educational pursuit, those earlys was Christian education
Ron:Yeah.
T.J.:Before you were pulled into the pulpit. So let's go back. What were you thinking in terms of Christian education? What did what did you envision that ministry to look like?
Ron:Well, I envisioned the regular staff person type thing. I've still enjoyed teaching. Mhmm. I still to this day do. Before you could join Holly Grove, you had to take a theology class that I taught.
Ron:It was called the 12 things every Christian ought to know. And it was kind of my it it wasn't a membership class. We had a membership class that was totally separate, and that was later. But anyone that came into Holly Grove had to take a theology class.
T.J.:How important is education in in the Christian faith?
Ron:I think that's one of the problems in tomorrow today's faith is we have
T.J.:today and tomorrow.
Ron:Yeah. And tomorrow. Yeah. We have lost that element of teaching. People can just come to, preaching.
Ron:Well, you what you end up with, either you have a Sunday school class at 11 o'clock, or you have a sermon that they have no real basis to understand what you're saying. I I think Sunday school is the lost component that's really hurt the church. We do not have an educated, we've never had a really educated laity, sadly. That's just just one of the givens. But today, we have an ignorant, totally ignorant, laity.
T.J.:How do how do we shore up, from your perspective, the corners there that that, and provide opportunities for Christian education? One, what would it look like, and I guess, in in 21st century, in 2023? But and 2 is, what steps do you envision that would
Ron:help help that
T.J.:a lot?
Ron:I think I've gotta rewind a little bit and go back to something else that we haven't talked about. Alright. And that is the basic problem we have in our society today is the secularization of our culture. And that's not just our culture, it is a worldwide secularization. And people simply don't feel they need God.
Ron:And so, whereas we grew up in a culture that just assumed you needed God, 50 years ago, you might resist that, you might not agree with it, etcetera, etcetera, but it was part of the culture. Now you've got to start before that. You've got to begin further back and create an understanding of need for God. And then it builds from there. Now, as going back to your question about teaching, I think we've got to get serious about it.
Ron:Too much of our teaching is fluff. You've got to get really, really serious. As I said, I don't consider myself a good preacher. There there are much better preachers than the CP church, I can assure you. But I am very serious about it.
Ron:My sermons always address a specific problem. You know, how do you how do you love the unlovable? How do you, deal with, with the person, in your in your, family or whatever, you know, that, hates you, you know, whatever. You know, these kind of things. But I do it in the context of that that sermon.
Ron:It's not an arbitrary thing. And, so I look at the Scripture and I say, what question does this Scripture answer? And that's after a lot of research. I mean, you know, I do my exegetical research. I I I 3 commentaries, maybe 4.
Ron:I used to, when my Greek was better, outline the Greek. Frankly, after 50 some years, that has has deteriorated, shall we say. Others might say it's totally gone, but, you know, I'll I'll claim a few words here and there. But, I still outlined my sermons, did a lot of research. Every sermon went through 3 to 4 drafts.
Ron:What I've realized is that I always have been a writer. And so I write a manuscript, but I know it so well, most people don't realize I have a manuscript. But I've thought through every idea. You know, I often think of it as in beating the words into submission. You know, every word must be the right word that conveys the right meaning.
Ron:And so I just pound on the words until they submit.
T.J.:Yeah. I I in my sermon preparation, well, each word has meaning and and has weight and depth, and the placement of it. And I agonize over that in sermon preparation and in in my writing. And, I can't think of a finished product that I've been satisfied with.
Ron:Well, that's been one of the great things about retirement. When I said at 40 I liked my sermons, I mean, I felt they were adequate. But in retirement, filling pulpits, I've gone back and taken the, the 95% sermons and rewritten them and preached them 3 times. I find that about after 3 times, it's a pretty fair sermon. Mhmm.
Ron:And so I've enjoyed that. It it's been fun to take, some sermons that I've, you know, one that Larry Bagme, my great friend, always loved my sermon. What you're gonna do when Onesimus comes back from the book of Philemon. And it deals with what what are you gonna do when people that you worshiped stayed out of your life came back, you know. And so, and, I used an almost, African American style, in that one because I kept pounding.
Ron:At the end of each point, I ended up, what you gonna do when Onesimus comes? Larry Bagby loved that sermon. And so I went back and I rewrote it and I rewrote it, and it's a halfway decent sermon now. As my grandfather used to say, even a blind dog finds an acorn every once in a while. Every once in a while, I have a fairly decent one.
T.J.:I have to, with writing articles, magazines, and sermon writing, there has to be a point to for me where I just have to let it go. Yeah. Yeah. I just have to let it go. Yeah.
T.J.:And,
Ron:Well, one of my rider coaches
T.J.:I find that difficult.
Ron:Has a tweet a t shirt. I I hired a writer coach to to teach me in writing. And, April, all we she had this T shirt that said, it's a draft until you die.
T.J.:Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Ron:You know, you never get it. There's always one word you'd change. There's always a comma you would take out or add. So, you know, you have to get to a point to say that was that was just pretty fair.
T.J.:Tolerable, I think Tolerable
Ron:is good.
T.J.:Is the word that I use in my head is I I can tolerate this writing. I can tolerate this sermon Mhmm. And it's delivery. You throw in the delivery, then there's a whole another thing.
Ron:Oh, yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Another element.
Ron:Well, again, I'm not a good preacher. I'm a teacher. So, you know, I never have felt my delivery was that great.
T.J.:So we we were talking about your studies, wars, Christian education, and you finished your studies, and then you thrusted into the pulpit ministry. So let's pick back up there.
Ron:Okay. My first I I pastored a little, Presbyterian church, while I was in I came when I came back to, MTS. And then I left there and I went to the Batesville Hopewell Church. Great pastor. Love those people.
Ron:Still do love to go back there. Was there 4 years. Then I came to Eastside, and, it was an urban church.
T.J.:And Eastside meant just for context. Memphis. Memphis, Tennessee.
Ron:Right smack dab in the middle of the city, totally different from what I'd been doing before. I think one of the great several things that happened that were very influential, I began a reading program. Like everybody else, when I left seminary, I was tired of studying, you know. So for the 1st years, I just pretty much coasted. But when I went to Eastside, I realized I need to get back into it.
Ron:So I tried to spend an hour every morning reading. I read, Christian Institutes. I read Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. I read all of that stuff, you know you know, everything from the church history on. And so I did this an hour a day for 20 years.
Ron:And I I think that probably had more to to do for my ministry than anything else, except for one thing. And this may sound kind of strange, and there'll be some people that probably take exception to this. But when I went came to Eastside, I realized there was gonna be a Billy Graham crusade. I'd seen it on television, the whole bit, and so I thought, that's a learning experience. And so I, I went to their headquarters and volunteered and got involved and people don't realize what goes on in the crusade.
Ron:They assume that the crusade is what they see on television. It's not. It's kind of like an iceberg, 90% of that thing is underwater. They send in the team 2 years ahead of time into the community. I remember every time I went to an event, they gave us a book.
Ron:I left the crusade with a shelf 2 and a half feet long full of books they gave me. I was a counselor, I was up in the stands, people don't realize how that happens. I was captain of the group in each section and when a inquirer, they don't call them decisions, they call them inquirers, because half of the people come for no not for salvation, but they have a bad marriage, they have a crime in their past they want forgiveness for, all kinds of stuff. It's amazing. And so I would send a counselor down behind them so that when they got there, there was somebody standing right beside them.
Ron:And then I worked in the co labor corps which, if you come forward at night, by noon the next day, the church nearest to you is told, you come, you came forward last night. And the the ministers have already been contacted and have agreed that they will contact that person by supper time. So it it it and it was quite a different experience and, I've really learned a lot about organization and and, how to handle things. And then, it got me involved in another group called The Navigators. You've probably never heard of them.
Ron:No. They came they were a ministry to the naval Navy in San Diego during World War 2. That's why they were called Navigators. And they're, probably, they're very interesting group, but I began I became involved in their discipleship program. And my wife and I went for 2 years.
Ron:Basically, it was how to have a quiet time, how to witness, how to read the bible, all those things, you know. And those two things led and changed my life a lot.
T.J.:How long were you part of the, Billy Graham crusade?
Ron:Well, of course, it it it they they come 2 years ahead of time, have the crusade, and then they stay for a year after. After the crusade, I I pretty much wasn't involved, because I had to get back to pastoring a church.
T.J.:Right. Right. Because the the as an organization, it relies on the vol local volunteers. Yeah. And you're right, what you see is just a tip.
Ron:Oh, yeah. It it it's nothing compared to what's really going on.
T.J.:Okay. So you were talking about, reading program. Wanted to ask you, only faith based material, Christian material? Or would you that that hour a day would you spend it reading,
Ron:Archie All that hour was all that makes sense.
T.J.:Spiderman or
Ron:But I am a big reader. I mean, you know, I I am an avid reader. To this day, I keep a book in the back seat in case I have 10 minutes someplace so I can read. You know, I I I just that's just me. I read everything.
Ron:And, you know, I read the back of a cereal box at, you know, 3 or 4 times before we're done. Yeah. I just read. That's just me.
T.J.:Yeah. So you're at Eastside, started the reading program, got involved in Billy Graham Crusade, and then The Navigators.
Ron:Yeah. Mhmm.
T.J.:Then what?
Ron:Okay. Well, that began my personal growth, and and, you know, I kept up the reading program for 20 some years. Mhmm. And I to this day, I still read a lot. But I also read my my leisurely reading is science fiction.
Ron:I love science. I love history, and, those 2 go together. And so, I read all the time. Even to this day, I will read a history book every month Mhmm. Something like that.
T.J.:How long were you at Eastside Cumberland Presbyterian Church? Alright.
Ron:Those poor people had to put up with me for 18 years.
T.J.:Where did you go after Eastside?
Ron:Well, I went a whole 36 miles north to Tipton County. It was a rural slash suburban church, because while it is a rural county, it's very much a suburban county in a lot of ways. And I was there 17 and a half years. My first Sunday, there were a 110 in worship. My last Easter, there were 583.
Ron:So it was that's very unique. Most people, their greatest ministry is in their younger years a lot of times. That's where they see but mine was very much the latter years, which I've often reflected on, God does what God does.
T.J.:You had mentioned earlier, around the age of 40 is when you became more comfortable with. How did that play into this timeline of Eastside and Holly Grove?
Ron:It was the last 5 years that I was at Eastside. Mhmm. And I I felt at Eastside, I had just done all I could do. 18 years? I I, you know, I did not wanna leave.
Ron:I I I I hated leaving. I mean, I I had people that I was marrying that I had baptized as babies, you know, that kind of thing. And so, you know, I think my last years at Eastside were some of my most fruitful in a lot of ways. Another big event in my life was, I had a member join Holly Grove that was big in the Emmaus community and encouraged me to go an Emmaus walk. And it is not like anything you've ever been on.
Ron:It is totally different. I became heavily involved in the Emmaus community. I always loved being involved with Christians other places. I I love that. And just, completed 4 years as the community spiritual director of the Memphis Emmaus community, which has 500 members 5,000 members in It it's a it's a big community and, loved every minute of it.
Ron:I still do talks at at all the walks, and so you know?
T.J.:Ron, what do you think the greatest gift you received in ministry, both from the Eastside Church and from the Holly Grove? And we'll do this double sided. So what do you think the greatest gift you gave to those congregations as their church leader, and what do you think that you received from both of those congregations in your time of service?
Ron:Eastside taught me how to be an administrator. I wasn't you know, people often thrust me into administrative situations nowadays, but, I never was good at it. I wasn't good at it, and so I had to teach myself to be good. Mhmm. And eastside was a a real refiner's fire.
Ron:And so I learned tremendous amount of things at Eastside. They they were great people. They, wonderful people, loving people, kind people. But, it was an urban situation and demanded totally different skills.
T.J.:Right. Because you had come from a more rural area of Mississippi. No. Arkansas. Arkansas.
Ron:Batesville, Arkansas.
T.J.:And, so there was that change. You had to see it. You had a learning curve then.
Ron:Oh, my. Tremendous learning curve. And, you know, any success I had at Holly Grove is is is credit to Eastside, my experiences there.
T.J.:In terms of giving to Eastside as a church leader, as a minister, what do you think the greatest gift that you gave to that congregation at that time?
Ron:I was a good pastor. I loved my people and spent hours pastoring. I think I was a good pastor. I I tried my best to be a good pastor anyway.
T.J.:So it wasn't for lack of effort. Yeah. Right.
Ron:Now I I may have been lacking in other skills earlier in my ministry because I went at 29. And so I was still relatively young in my ministry. But it was there that, that I probably honed all those skills.
T.J.:Mhmm. We'll move to Holly Grove. So what do you think the greatest gift you gave during your time of ministry there to them? And then, what do you think they gave you?
Ron:I think I gave them the gifts of what Eastside taught me.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Ron:But most of all, it wasn't what I gave them or they gave me, it's what god did. That was just a unique and outstanding ministry. It was totally different, you know. And so when I got there, it was almost like God said, okay. Let's do something.
Ron:And it it's just amazing what that little church has done. It's not so little anymore. It it it's the largest church in West Tennessee, I think, presbytery or the cornerstone now. I still haven't got that in my mind. But, I think god just showed up and showed out.
Ron:It was just incredible what God did. You know, here's this little church in the country, cows on 3 sides, literally cows on 3 sides, and people began to show up and things began to happen, and I just kinda enjoyed it.
T.J.:Looking back across your life, who do you think has greatly impacted your faith?
Ron:Oh, without a doubt, my grandfather, w Wayman, who was pastor most of my life, he laid the groundwork. He was a great pastor. I think he was a good preacher, but I was so young, you know, but he taught me things. I remember sitting in his lap as a child and him reading bible stories to me. And, frankly, almost all of my bible knowledge is based on those stories like everybody else, you know, All the different stories.
Ron:You know? Joshua and Samuel and and David and all of those people. You know? And so, yeah, he and my grandmother and then, of course, my grandfather McMillan, taught me how to be a farmer. I was a farmer.
Ron:Started driving the tractor at 11 and a half years old, in the field. And my last year, last summer on the farm, my grandfather retired and my father and my parents had moved because his job took him to a new place, and I I farmed the farm for a whole summer by myself. So I like that. But, they were very important to me, but I'd say faith change faith foundation would be W. O.
Ron:Wehman. But, also, I can't not mention, Robert Forster, who, and, George Butler, George e, there's a George a and a George e and this George e. He was my pastor after my grandfather died, and so George was my first pastor, because I you know, he was my grandfather too, you know. Then, when I went to college, Robert Forrester, and then my first experience in ministry would be James Ransom. I was the summer worker with youth at the Cleveland Church, for 3 summers.
Ron:And James Ransom probably taught me more about this is how you do ministry. Mhmm. You know, just watching him. And so those were very instrumental in my life.
T.J.:We have people that listen to Cumberland Road. They're kinda stretch all over the the globe. If you were to describe a Cumberland Presbyterian to somebody you didn't know, what would you say? What makes a Cumberland Presbyterian a Cumberland Presbyterian? How would I know one if I met 1?
Ron:Woah. Now that is an interesting question. A Cumberland Presbyterian is reformed, a member of the reformed faith, but also a that's difficult. I don't know.
T.J.:We'll come back to it. Okay. I'll let you think about it from there.
Ron:I'll think about that a while because that you know, how do you yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:What is a Cumberland Presbyterian?
Ron:Right. Yeah. Yeah. What makes them unique? Yeah.
Ron:It's a people of faith. One thing to realize is that the Cumberland Presbyterian Church is a frontier church. It's always grown on the frontier. Its growth began with the frontier, and if you will look statistically, when the frontier in the United States closed, the growth of the CP church stopped. We are a frontier church.
T.J.:Well, then that means we were a frontier church.
Ron:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's part of our makeup. And if I was gonna say, what do we need to do? It would be find a new frontier.
Ron:We thrive on the frontier. That may be why our missions program is is is flourishing so well right now. It's a new frontier. We are a frontier church. But also, another way to look at it is we are the first truly American expression of Presbyterianism.
Ron:The Presbyterians had such strong European roots, and still do, in a lot of ways. But the Cumberland Presbyterian Church is uniquely Presbyterian, but American. It it it was an expression of the American character.
T.J.:We can't build our identity on what we were 200 years ago, though.
Ron:I agree. Yeah. But what I'm saying is we need a culture.
T.J.:Yeah.
Ron:And out of that culture is we need a frontier. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Yeah. I'm not arguing with you. I'm just saying I think we need to shake it. Shake ourselves a bit and go, okay. That's part of our identity.
Ron:Right. Yeah.
T.J.:But, we can't live in the 1800.
Ron:No. No. No. No. You can't recreate the past.
Ron:You can't even recreate the, the 19 fifties or the 19 eighties. You know, we it's a totally different ballgame. One of the things people are always surprised about me, I think, is while I am very conservative theologically, Practically, I'm very progressive. I am open to just about any ethical and moral way to share the gospel. And if that means the Internet, if that means, you know, whatever.
Ron:You know? I feel we need to be very progressive on this. The the the Bible doesn't say you can't use the Internet. It doesn't say you know. And where we're going, if I knew that, I'd be the president of a seminary somewhere.
Ron:You know, I'm just as lost as anybody, because we are in such a new world. One thing to recognize is one of the issues, I think, before us, I mentioned secularization, but the other is isolation. I was reading or listening, I've forgotten which, to someone who was saying, in the year, don't hold me to these figures, but I think it was 2,000. I had the general idea. A person average person that I spent states spent 18 hours a week with family and friends.
Ron:In 19 in 2020, the average was 12. We are becoming an isolated people. And that was before COVID, so that not is not a COVID issue. But we I think people are becoming very lonely.
T.J.:Yeah. I'm wondering if that isolation takes in account the connection through technology or if the parameters were based upon we're in the same room together, with a family member or coworker
Ron:Right.
T.J.:A friend, colleague, whatever it may be. I wonder what those parameters are.
Ron:I I don't know. It was just a comment, that a a a commentator of some kind made somewhere. I don't even remember where, but I was struck by the the illustration.
T.J.:What do you think that isolation brings to us just as human beings?
Ron:I fear we are becoming a very harsh society. I have experienced in the last few months more road rage than I have probably in the last 20 years. Yeah. And I I personally attribute it to that isolation. People are no longer people.
Ron:We we don't really treat them as people. And I think this is a great issue in our society. I really do. And the world is at large, I think.
T.J.:I am wondering if there's the isolation, and I spend a lot of time in my head or by myself, that the temptation is to think that the world revolves around me. I'm taking this to the extreme. Mhmm. So anytime somebody cuts me off, oh how dare they, you know, in in terms of driving or traveling. If if I think that everything I don't mean that necessarily like a selfish little child or anything, but in terms of, if everything's accessible to me on a phone, or computer, or television, or it's pretty immediate, and and it's aimed at me.
T.J.:Right. I'm wondering I'm wondering if that plays into it as well. I'm just raising questions. I think
Ron:you are. I think you're right.
T.J.:So from from the faith community, the Christian faith community, experiencing possible isolation, how do we I don't wanna use the word combat, but how do we celebrate the times that we have together? How do we ease ease back into less isolation, and more in the company of one another?
Ron:Right.
T.J.:Let's just focus on the Christian community. Right. The faith community. Because I think it could branch out from there.
Ron:I think, 1, we've been kinda dancing around an issue, and that is how is the church going to respond to the secular culture we're in? You know, this kind of thing, which is the core of kind of what we've been talking about here. I don't know, I'm not that wise, but I I do think that we've got to begin with needs that people have. And I think one of the great needs is is, not just fellowship, but intimacy. Those are 2 different things.
Ron:And so I think one of the things the church needs to do is really stress those those experiences of of true loving fellowship.
T.J.:Yeah. We were talking off mic. I think we need more of this. Yeah. More just spending time, sharing time together, same room, having a conversation, faith conversation.
Ron:Yeah.
T.J.:And raising questions, sometimes we don't have the answers to them, joking, being self aware, going deep, risking, becoming vulnerable. I think we we need to be more intentional in creating those in in large and small groups. It could be 2 people, it can be 8. Right. That helps break the ice isolation I think.
T.J.:But it also challenges oh, or I think our self perceptions of ourselves.
Ron:Mhmm.
T.J.:You know, that I'm not the most important person in the room. Exactly.
Ron:Well, you play a video game. You are are I'm not a big video game person. Frankly, I've stayed away from it because I think I would love it too much. I think I I knowing my personality, I would spend hours in it when I should be doing something else. So I I have not played much.
Ron:But the guy behind the controller becomes the central actor.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Ron:And so it feeds into that idea that I am the center of the world, I think.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah.
Ron:I don't know. But, you know
T.J.:Yeah. But there is a risk. I can see how we, without maybe even recognizing it just as human beings, slipped into a little more isolation. But it's a risk. It's a risk to to hop in a room with a group of people.
T.J.:I'm not talking about just health, I'm just talking about as in being in the presence of people that may not think your jokes are funny or or look at the world differently than you. And if I I think we need more more of that though. And to run to run those risk
Ron:Well, if you read the people that talk about it, for example, people say things on the Internet to each other they would never say in person.
T.J.:Oh, absolutely. You know?
Ron:Horrible things. Just horrible things.
T.J.:Yeah.
Ron:And I think that's bleeding over into our culture. I mentioned that road rage kind of thing. You know, we treat people now in the world as in the way we taught them, have learned to to treat them on on the Internet.
T.J.:Yeah. I I've often said that, somebody wouldn't post that or type that, or or say it in in the room to me or to another person, because you run the risk of getting your nose smashed in. Yeah. So then what does that say about the one who is posting and typing? I don't maybe we just need to be daring to be in one another's company.
Ron:I think so. You know, you gave me the opportunity to do this over Zoom, and I didn't wanna do that. I wanted to look you in the face.
T.J.:Right. Right.
Ron:Now that's partly my age. You know, I'm gonna recognize that. I'm 75. I grew up in a face to face culture.
T.J.:Right.
Ron:And, one of my grandsons, his best friend is a gamer that he plays games with who lives in either Washington or Oregon. He's never met him, but talks to him every night, you know. Different world, different world. But I think we need that face to face because we're humanized.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. It would help it would help us, as human beings, Christians, Cumberland Presbyterian. What hopes do you have for our church, Ron, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
Ron:I've often thought, what is the role of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church? And I've decided that the role of the small denomination is to be the experimenter. Large denominations find it hard to change, find it hard to maneuver. But we should be, shall we say, the petri dish of Christianity. We should be the one that's willing to try different things.
Ron:For example, I'll go back to the missions. I'm just in awe of your group. And the I the concept of being a world church, which is, I believe, what you're you're you're moving toward, That is an amazing idea. Do you realize, I don't know of any other denomination that thinks that way. The presbyterians think in terms of state churches.
Ron:You know, a a a librarian church or a bazillion church. But we're thinking about a world church where we are 1. That is a very, very challenging idea, And I'm excited about it. I really am. I I I look forward to the missionary messenger every month.
Ron:Though I must admit, I I am so busy, I have to force myself to read it. You know? I'm like anybody else. I have all kinds of things to do and and and and all this. But I I discipline myself and say I need to know what's going on.
T.J.:I think it's very encouraging to think of our denomination as as experimenters.
Ron:Yeah.
T.J.:I think that could work at every level.
Ron:Yep.
T.J.:I think the local congregation, of course, is the best case scenario. You know, with the new church developments, they really shine in that way because everything you do is is an experiment. And the ability to be able to try it, and then if it doesn't work and let go of it quickly because you don't have the baggage of of a 100 years, or you know, 50 years. Right. Being able to relocate, even change the times that you gather.
T.J.:There's so much freedom, and having the ability to to experiment. I think, what could lead us as a denomination and as a Christian community is that local level of of not being afraid to try new things.
Ron:Yeah. Now, of course, from my theological background, I must say this. I think that while we are very progressive in how we act, we should be never never deny that kernel of the gospel truth. Mhmm. That's very important to me.
Ron:While I may do something very avant garde, it's always based on the gospel.
T.J.:Our our church mission, you know, and our confession of faith, it's to witness. So Yeah. Everything that we are doing should be, you know, coming to the pinnacle of sharing the good news of Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. Yeah. Our confession of faith says it many times.
T.J.:Right. So, I I think that's there is there's your litmus test is, is this witnessing whatever this is Mhmm. Or not? And that's where the measurements Yeah. Should be.
T.J.:And I That's the kernel. From my perspective, that's the kernel of, is this the witness or isn't it? Right. And I think the witness is very much
Ron:not so much being that harsh, are you saved, brother? It's got to come from them recognizing there's a change. If you go to the Holly Grove bulletin, at least the last time I was there I'm so busy now preaching, I don't get back much But, it it has something. I gave an offhanded comment, and it became kind of the the theme. One Sunday, I just off handedly mentioned, you know, Holly Grove, the place where Christ changes hearts and lives.
Ron:That's on their bulletin now. And if you were gonna ask me what is the secret to Holly Grove's growth, it would be Jesus Christ did this. It's not about me, it's not about them, it's Jesus did it. But the way he did it was he changed so many lives and the community saw lives changed, they wanted part of it. They saw this.
Ron:And, Peter and Debbie are doing a fabulous job. I just can't praise them too much. Peter is just a wonderful pastor. Debbie is just the best associate pastor you could possibly ever had. Though, I just feel very proud I had part of her life, you know.
Ron:One of the great stories there is that when she, her kids came to a youth event, I greeted her and her first words out of her mouth was, I've already got a home church. You know? Well, now she's the associate pastor at Holly Grove. Great, great story. But we have got to change lives.
Ron:It can't be superficial. It's got to be down to the very foundation. And if we do that, that's going to be attractive to people and they'll come.
T.J.:And that requires trust, and trust takes time.
Ron:Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Ron, what are you reading right now?
Ron:Oh, what am I reading right now? Well, right now, I'm reading a murder mystery. As a writer, one of the things you do is you read all kinds of genres. So I've subjected myself to a really weird, popular murder mystery. But then I just finished a book on World War 2.
Ron:And, before that, I I I there's a series on the Kings of England that, that I was reading. And then, of course, I keep science fiction books going all the time.
T.J.:What's your favorite favorite book?
Ron:Oh, well, I met David Weber, which means absolutely nothing to many of your listeners. But if you're science fiction, he is mister science fiction today. He's written 90 bestsellers. And I got my picture taken with him 2 weeks ago.
T.J.:What's your favorite book of his?
Ron:Oh, well, the the the series, the Honor Harrington series.
T.J.:Okay.
Ron:It's just, you know, fabulous. Fabulous. And a friend of mine, writes with him, and, they were gonna write a co author of a book. And before he could write, start writing, Chris had to read the 120 page bible that he'd written, which a bible in writing is the backstory that you need to know about every character, how the world works, all this kind of stuff. And so before he could even write the first word, he had to read a 120 pages.
Ron:Chris was blown away.
T.J.:Alright, Ron. Do you wanna take one more crack at the question, who is a Cumberland Presbyterian?
Ron:Okay. We are a unique Christian body dedicated to Jesus Christ and proclaiming his work.
T.J.:That we are a work in progress.
Ron:A work in progress. Who knows what we will be in a 100 years? Who knows? I would love to see it. I won't.
Ron:At 75, I won't see it except from heaven. And, I'll be excited to see.
T.J.:Yeah. Ron, I appreciate your time.
Ron:Well, thank you for asking me. I've enjoyed our time together. Hope I didn't ramble too much. Thank you, Ron. Okay.
T.J.:I wanna say thank you for making Cumberland Road the podcast that it is, for the wonderful guest, for you, the listener, for sharing, for following along, for telling others about it. It's encouraging to be able to hear one another, share their faith, and to share it with others. In closing, read from the confession of faith for Cumberland Presbyterians. All who are united to Christ by faith are also united to one another in love. In this communion, they are to share the grace of Christ with one another, to bear one another's burdens, and to reach out to all other persons.
