Rusty Rustenhaven - An Openness To New Paths
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. This is The Cumberland Road. I am your host, TJ Malinoski. The following conversation is with Reverend Rusty Rustenhaven. Rusty has served as a youth director, a director of Christian education, an associate minister, and a senior minister. His faith journey includes what it is like growing up as a preacher's kid, his calling into ministry, and the importance of Christian education. Rusty talks about how his faith has included a maturing and mellowing with age and experience and how semi retirement is allowing him to experience an openness to new paths. Enjoy this conversation on the Cumberland Road with guest Rusty Rustenhaven.
T.J.:Rusty Rustenhaven, thank you for joining me on the Cumberland Road podcast. If it's alright, I thought we could start with just a brief introduction, talk about who you are, where you're serving, your ministry, and then we can get into some deeper deeper questions.
Rusty:Really, William Rustenhaven the third, but I've always been rusty from the very beginning. My parents tell the story that, when I was at the Oak Grove Cumberland Presbyterian Church where my father was pastor in near Austin, he, they had the baby. I was the first in my family, and the the church people came to the hospital, and they go there's another little rusty and really except on the first day of school and to uncle Sam I've been rusty to everybody. So, that's kind of where that begins. I did come from a minister's family.
Rusty:My father came a little Presbyterian. The entire time he was a Christian, he became a Christian under, brother James Gilbert in, when he was 17 years old. He did not get converted or go to church really until he was 17. Went into the military and really enjoyed that, but then figured out that the world needed Christ. And so he started the road to the ministry and because of that I followed him obviously wherever he went when I was younger.
Rusty:We went from Oak Grove to Iowa, Shiner Church in Iowa, then we went down to the Walnut Grove Church in Tennessee. Well, my dad finished his seminary and then we went to Fort Worth. We came to Marshall, Texas where I went to high school and all my brothers did, and then we went to, then I went to Bethel College, then college, now university, and then I went to Memphis Theological Seminary. In between there, one summer I worked at the Savannah, church as a youth director. When when I was in seminary, I was at the Grimes Memorial United Methodist Church because the Cumberlands weren't hiring Christian education people.
Rusty:When I was in college Doctor. Ramsey had made a big impact on me and so because of that I really liked Christian education, the thought of it, and I've been influenced by that with really good youth leaders in my home church. So I wanted to do some of that kind of work and the Methodist churches were hiring that there must have been 20 job openings and Doctor. Buck put me in touch with this church. I went to work for it and got to know the best part about that.
Rusty:I got to know some of the how to deal with a little bit bigger church, a church that was you know would run 200 in Sunday school kind of thing. And so that was that was an important time in my life and one that I really really enjoyed working with college age, youth, Christian education, Sunday school, children, Bible school, everything. I did that for 3 years. Then I got the call to the Clarksville church in Clarksville, Tennessee and was the associate pastor there for 15 years. Not a lot of people get to do that, not a lot of people want to do that, but I loved it.
Rusty:I loved being an associate pastor. It did allow me to do presbyteryal things a little more, and I really enjoyed, as you know, working with the presbyteryal youth and the retreats and camps and mission trips and ski trips, all the things we did. I enjoyed all of that. Then I moved to got the call to the Marshall church and all along the way I had some great ministers including the pastor that was there in Marshall, it was Cordell Smith. Before him in Tennessee at the Clarksville church I had John Stiles and EG Sims who were my mentors and my senior pastors, and Hillman Moore when I was at Savannah, and Bev Farnsworth when I was in Memphis.
Rusty:You know when we'd start to count our blessings, I was under some good leaders and got a training there. But I was for 2 years here in Marshall I was the associate pastor here for children and youth and they wanted to really bump up their children and youth programs and it's fine with me. But the Cordell started getting sick and I started doing both jobs, for a while while he was trying to get better. He wasn't able to and he had to retire and, so I became the senior pastor. It seemed that what the church wanted and what seemed like the next thing for me, but I'll be honest if Cordell had stayed healthy I think I could have been associate pastor for 10 more years.
Rusty:You know I really do. A rarity I think not only in our denomination but in any. So many people have seen associate pastors as the stepping stone but for me it was a real calling and something I really enjoyed.
T.J.:Well, let's go back for a minute and let's talk about you were raised as a preacher's kid.
Rusty:Yep. P k.
T.J.:And, I have 2 children. 1 one's an adult, and one is in kindergarten. So I don't know what it's like to be a preacher's kid. So what is what is it like for my 2 children? But more specifically, what is it like for Rusty?
Rusty:Well, for me, I I saw it occasionally as a detriment, but most of the time I saw it as a plus. It was kinda like, of course, church was our life. We were there almost everything there was and, but I saw the church as a bonus. It was a bunch of grandparents and aunts and uncles and brothers and sisters. I mean, you know, you talk about family, but when you're the only kid in the church, which happened several times growing up, you get doted on.
Rusty:It's not bad to get. To me, it wasn't. The other is and I've I've said this about kids in church no matter who whether they're the pastor's kids or not. If you come all the time, those those people in the church start treating you like family. And when you graduate, they wanna give you a gift.
Rusty:And when you, when you come home, they wanna welcome you. Now if you're the sporadic attender, I always feel sorry for those people. They think they're free, but they really lost something and all that because they're not perceived the same way because the people don't know them. Them. But when they know you, and that's pastor's kid, you're gonna get to be known, good or bad.
Rusty:You're gonna get to be known, and, it it was a good thing for me. I I will say this. I noticed my father coming home from session meetings, sometimes out of sorts, because he'd been through a tough one that they were dealing with the budget or whatever. I don't know. And, I saw that.
Rusty:I saw also the fact that he wasn't getting wealthy working this, working this job, but I knew he was dedicated, and that was that was a good thing. My brothers and I always have seen the church is a good thing. Home was a good thing. Marshall became kind of home for us and my parents bought the manse and retired here. So it, you know, it was kind of an odd thing to to have a home base when you moved around so much.
Rusty:But but even if you don't move, which I didn't move my children but once. We we moved from Clarksville to Marshall, and that's rare too. Got 38 years of ministry, and I've been in 2 churches. So, that that doesn't happen much, and I know that. But part of it was I was willing to be content.
Rusty:As far as my kids go, I think there were some pressures to attend things that perhaps they wouldn't have done on their own, willingly, but I think they also felt the the love of the church and the love of the people there. And there was because I was working with children in the youth, there was always gonna be some program for them. There was gonna be something to entertain and as well as teach, and I think they got that chance to worship, sing in the choir, participate in all that we did in the mission trips. And I made sure that there were mission trips and ski trips and and, camp opportunities, and and they they seemed to like them all. At least they told me they did.
Rusty:And so, you know, I made sure that we had that for them. As far as to tell your kids, be yourself, treat them treat them well. I think that that's, love them and let them know that they're the first place of ministry and then the rest of the church is the second place of ministry, but a very close one a, one b.
T.J.:This next question is kind of attached to that. And so it it's for preachers' kids, but I I just think for children and young adults in general, what words do you have about separating yourself from your parents or your guardians and developing your own faith, your own religion, your own relationship with god because it's really easy to kind of lean into your parents' faith and their relationship and I and I would say perhaps even more of a temptation if your parents, one or both, are in some sort of ministry. And you've been able to walk that. So what what is that like?
Rusty:Well, I I guess there were times where church was so a part of my life that I didn't think about God perhaps as deeply as I should at times. And then other times I thought because, I guess, because, Shearer's environment I was surrounded by godly talk and godly discussions, that it caused me to think more deeply. I guess it was both. I either took it for granted or I really pondered it. But you know like I said I resisted the ministry and the call to the ministry because my father was a minister.
Rusty:I didn't want to do it just because he did it, you know. I didn't want to be coattails and I think I'm answering your question. For me it was it caused me to think more deeply about things, often, but at the same time, you can you can just hover around and not really have a deep, meaningful experience with God. It could happen. Just and, you know, I've seen all these statistics about people that were in really active youth groups until they're 18 and then they get out and then they've gotta nobody's trying to entertain them every minute, and and all of a sudden they've got to decide whether they're gonna be a mature person in the faith or not.
Rusty:It's it's not a simple thing, and I think I think, young adults today struggle with that, especially those that have had real contact with the church. I think it is important to talk to any child, including your own, about matters of faith, but it's it's an awkward talk sometimes until you get in the habit of doing that talk. Not sure I perfected it as a father, but I will say, I've been on both ends of it just like you said. I think there are some real advantages to to developing your own faith, but you gotta get there. I mean, you you gotta get to the point where you can't inherit that.
Rusty:It's got to be your own.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. That's what I was trying to to articulate being able to, you know, inherit and and but develop your own individual relationship with Christ.
Rusty:But the reason why we wanna have conversions before the year age of 18 is because most people make that decision before 18. And so to me, that's where we spend a lot of our appropriate effort. It doesn't mean that people after 18 are written off, but it just means it's a lot easier. So by surrounding them and engulfing them with that, with the life of church. I'll never forget, mister Davis, Harold Davis used to say at Christian Education Board meetings, he used to say that the purpose of Christian education is to help, and he said this sounds bad, but he said it's to help people have a positive experience with the church.
Rusty:And because he said the number of times you remember what Miss Sally taught you in 2nd grade with Bible story is rare. Now you know you know the Bible story but you don't know who taught it to you and, because of that. But if Miss Sally was terrible to you, you never wanted to go to church again. You remember that. And so, you know those are the I've kind of come around to that a little bit.
Rusty:I I always thought that that was not I thought that was giving up some real opportunities, but I guess there's more wisdom to it than I than I thought at the time.
T.J.:There's definitely an influence of how you're received and welcomed, into, you know, a family of faith and to to have a space And
Rusty:I was loved into it everywhere I went. I mean, and because of that, I I think I was more dedicated to it, more dedicated to the church, more dedicated to the Cumberland Church, but more importantly, more dedicated to Christ and his church. And, that was very important to me growing up, but I was surrounded by love, love of the church.
T.J.:You mentioned earlier, Rusty, for youth or young adult about having a meaningful experience. Rusty, what's a meaningful experience of God for you?
Rusty:You know, I I've had several through the years and, in fact that was that was a question that through the years I've been asked and I I really believe my whole life of either knowingly or unknowingly. And and I know that sounds wrong, but I think there's some unknowing experiences with God that happened only in later life. Do you reflect back on it, go that was a God thing? But, as I see it, you know, I guess one of the things that for me growing up in the church and perhaps some of the other answers to your question, I was the good kid to everybody else. Rusty, Rusty internally knew that Rusty was sinful.
Rusty:I guess I've been to church enough to know I was sinful, and and I was I was not always pure in thought and not always everything, perfect. And I tried to be the good kid. I was the oldest child, you know, the kind of that person, but and went along with my parents to church and everything, but I knew I was sinful. So but so I went to pastor's class, what we called it then, confirmation class to other people, but and my father, he didn't he didn't play with pastor's class. I mean, you had to be able to spell all the books of the Bible and you had to be able to you had to know them and, you know, you had to know what part of them, you know, whether they were the law or the history, you know, we had to know that stuff.
Rusty:Now, or at least I did, and in doing all that, I guess I just had so many experiences that came along, but I joined the church or made my profession and joined the church. And yet I felt like something was missing. I didn't feel like I had made it there. And I guess perhaps as a holy spirit thing, a conviction kind of thing, but I felt guilty for probably 5 or 6 years. Now I wasn't into the progressive, revelation, theory of of conversion yet.
Rusty:I was more into the, you know, the radical conversion later in, so I wasn't sure I'd had that. And I was feeling guilty because I told the world I was. And so I really dealt with some guilt. And finally, I do remember this. I was 14.
Rusty:I was in my bed at night. I couldn't tell you the day, but I could tell you it was in my bed. I was 14 years old, and I had just I had agonized. I had prayed, and and nobody knew I was struggling with this. I mean, I was doing this on my own, so I've matured that much.
Rusty:But I was praying, and I finally got a sense of peace. I got a sense that I was God's child. It's not that I didn't feel that way before and perhaps that was the way I understood it at 8 and I understood it again in a different way at 14, but that was a real experience with God. That was a wonderful one because from then on, I felt like, you know, I hadn't perfected anything, but I felt like I was right with God. And that was important to me.
Rusty:I guess I had had enough in the big picture of things in church that I knew something wasn't right or it didn't feel right. And and that's why I go back to what I said in the beginning. So many people relate experiences with God with feelings, and and I certainly I'm I'm right in there. I I it's more obvious when you have an experience with God that is that is emotional or, you know, you tear up or you cry or whatever, and you hug people and and and or a song touches you or a prayer or sermon just really gets you. But it's everything isn't emotional in the faith, and and and yet that has seems to be the criteria for most people.
Rusty:It's whether it was an emotional experience or not. And, I think we encourage that sometimes in church, camp, retreats, and stuff. But at the same time, all those things, the the vacation bible schools, the church camps, the the things that I experienced at CPYC, those things were very important for me in in there. But I guess the the other experience, and I'll relate this to my colleague. When I went off to college, I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I didn't want to be a minister.
Rusty:That was the one thing. I didn't want to be poor, so I wanted to get some money, and I wanted to be a business person or something. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I didn't I knew what I didn't want. And at the time, Bethel allowed you to declare un undecided. So I didn't have to have a major for 2 years, but at the end of my sophomore year, I was gonna have to declare as as January came around that year and I was moving toward the end of that year, I was starting to feel some pressure as to what I was gonna choose for my major and, and also what I was gonna do with my life.
Rusty:All that was going on, but everybody seemed to know what they wanted to do except me. I'm sure that was not true because there were a lot of people changing majors, but that at the time, it just seemed like they talked that way, and I didn't talk very confidently because I didn't know. But we went on I was in the Balladeers, which was the choir at the time in in Bethel, and we went on a spring tour and went around to the different churches. And we had a roommate. David Dean was my roommate.
Rusty:Interestingly, he couldn't get away from me because, my father was his pastor in Iowa. He he went to Bethel. I went to Bethel from Marshall, so we didn't know each other for years. But we resumed that relationship and good friends, and he, even more amazingly, ended up in Marshall before I did. And when I came back here, he was here again.
Rusty:He couldn't get I was like a bad penny. So, anyway, he he was, my roommate, and we would go and go to the church, have a meal, then sing, and then go back to our host homes. We were hosted in different homes and, you know, you had you couldn't just go to bed even if you wanted to. You needed to spend a little time and visit with the people that were hosting. But we would spend about an hour talking, and they would ask the eventual questions, which no person in college really wants to hear.
Rusty:And that is, what are you gonna do? What's your job? What's your major? You know, you ask your major, that's fine. But, what you're gonna do with your life?
Rusty:You know? And it was interesting. There were 2 of us there both going to the same college, and yet they asked me night after night, are you going to be a minister? Now some people had heard my father's name, but most of them didn't know my father from Adam. So that wasn't it wasn't that kind of thing.
Rusty:But here was my roommate sitting there with me, and they weren't asking him that question. 4 or 5, 6 nights in a row, I get asked that question, and I began thinking maybe I need to reexamine this because why is this happening? And, so I went home, and I can't remember the exact timetable with it, but there was a weekend revival at my home church. I guess we were traveling over spring break and there were a few days at the end and I decided to go home. Even though it was 500 miles away, I went home.
Rusty:It was exactly 500 miles away from my driveway to Bethel. And, so I went home and and had that time. And, during that revival, there was an invitation every night, and, it just I don't know what happened, but God, I felt, called me. And, I went forward, and my father said he had been praying for that, but also didn't wanna say anything about it for years, that other people in the church had been praying for that. But, I only discovered that later.
Rusty:They did not tell me in advance. And, so it was it was a it was a wonderful experience, and I and I have to say the rest of my life has been a confirmation of that. So experiences with God, I feel like those 2 jump out at me today. But, you know, I I think I would certainly be limiting God if, that was the only one that anybody ever said that I had, you know, or even I said that I had because I believe God works in very silent ways sometimes through people and and I will say through the churches and through the senior pastors and through the, different people in the Presbyterian, my professors. I mean, there's so many people that influenced my life, and made it possible for me to come to that point, And I believe God was working through them.
Rusty:And, to me, that's an experience with godly people, perhaps, maybe not a god experience.
T.J.:Well, Rusty, is there any other folks that you would like to mention that have deepened your relationship?
Rusty:You know?
T.J.:And every guest says, what a dangerous question. Because you inevitably
Rusty:Yeah. You're gonna leave somebody out. Well, I've tried to throw in a bunch of names already.
T.J.:So Yeah.
Rusty:But, you know, my youth leaders, in addition to my parents, my mom and my dad, were super influential, and I will never be able to, thank them enough for that. But as far as other people, in addition to my mother and father, the my youth leaders growing up in Marshall, put up with a immature young man that read Guinness Book of World Record things out in the car and drove everybody crazy. Took us places. They were volunteers. They didn't get paid.
Rusty:They had us over to their house. They they you know, as far as youth work, they probably didn't know exactly what to do except to love us and provide opportunities for us. They didn't teach us many bible lessons, but they were just wonderful. And their receptivity, their encouragement, their prayers, their, just great. And that was an odd thing too because and I say odd, to me it's odd.
Rusty:It's unique anyway. The their son, John Lindsay, became a pastor, in the Cumberland Church. He waited several years, worked a couple of jobs, and then went off to college, like, 6 years later. Well, because of that, I was able to catch the tail end of his college time. He went to Bethel.
Rusty:He also had experienced the call, and so he went to Bethel. So when I went there, I knew somebody. Well, that's when I rediscovered David Dean and some other people, but then we had other people from our church in Marshall. So at one time, there were 5 people from our church at Bethel, and 500 miles away and you have to do a lot of talking to parents these days to anybody, you know, that far away unless they're going to Stanford or Harvard. So, you know, it's it's it's really was a wonderful thing that I felt again.
Rusty:People knew my father. They professors knew him. People in town knew him. People at the McKenzie church knew him, but I knew people in the dorm that I could hang out with and go ask questions. Now we didn't have to and they told me, you know, they were great as, they were better advisors than my advisor because they said, do not take this your freshman year.
Rusty:You you'll have to take it, but don't take it your freshman year. Take this one. Take this professor, take this class, and and it was wonderful. And then we would, you know, Bethel was, at that time, it was I didn't realize it when I went. It was almost about to close, and there were 333 students.
Rusty:I remember that my freshman year. And 300 of them went home on the weekends. So it was 33 of us stuck on campus every weekend, and that was what all the people from Morrisville and all the people from Iowa and all the people from White Paraway was paying. The athletes would stay sometimes, and, you know, it was it was wonderful to me because I didn't have any chores to do. I just had to study and hang out and play cards and and, you know, it was for a town with nothing to do.
Rusty:It was a it was one of the best times of my life. It was just fun and, good friends. And now, Bizarro of Bizarro, the guy, David Dean, from Iowa ends up living in Marshall. His wife was from Transvaal, who also went to Bethel. She ended up in Marshall.
Rusty:My roommate was from here. He came back to Marshall. His wife came back to Marshall. John Lindsay, lives in Fort Worth and in Marshall. I think I have 6 or 7 people that I went to college with in Marshall, Texas.
Rusty:And so, you know, it's this is not a Bethel story per se, but it it it it has been, because I've been in Clarksville for 15 years. I never know if I'd made that to Marshall. Mhmm. So all of that has been a wonderful experience. What was I answering again?
T.J.:People who have helped deepen your faith.
Rusty:And then and then I gotta say, finally, and and I would be super remiss, my wife, she absolutely has been supportive. Like, she got good training. Her her father was a high school principal. There's a lot of similarities of how you have to behave as a high school principal's child and a, to the minister's wife. She was, she has just been super supportive, has taught Sunday school for most of our marriage and most of my ministry.
Rusty:She's helped in bible school. She's done Christmas programs. She's done a little bit of everything, and she really was a a she's a more of a high school teacher. So, it was so to work with the children that she worked at the children at church, and she worked with the teenagers in in school. And, just super supportive of my ministry.
Rusty:And, and that isn't always easy to do, as I can imagine. You know, I've tried to be supportive of her work, but it's not nearly as many occasions I go to. And so, she's, she's been, wonderful as, help meet. We we use that word jokingly and sincerely. She's been wonderful at that.
T.J.:Rusty, where do you see God working in your life today?
Rusty:That's a that's an interesting one because I'm semi retired and I say that I don't think you can be fully retired ever once you have the call. My father taught me that by observation. He didn't I don't guess he ever told me that but you know I've got a lot of people's funerals to do, from what they say. If I'm still alive, I will do them. I continue to help the church here in Marshall in transition as we look for a new pastor, and, I hope to, help and not hinder the church with, being around.
Rusty:Marshall is probably gonna be our home base. From all my thinking right now, God may have another plan, but right now we plan to be here and use this as home base whether I do anything in the church or not. There are some opportunities. I don't preach every Sunday here, and I preach a couple of Sundays a month. So there are opportunities to, supply as churches seek more and more people to help them fill the pulpit, that there's some possibilities in presbytery to do a little more perhaps now that I'm a little more free, and I feel like that's important.
Rusty:Spend a little more time with my family and that kind of thing. So how is God there? I think God's continuing to lead me into new new paths, as far as what's next, and I'm really open to that. About the only thing I'm not open to is a long term stated supply. I don't mind helping churches out.
Rusty:I really think by being in this presbytery for 23 years, I've learned all the churches and all the key elders in each church and that kind of thing, and and so I feel like there's a way to help in the presbytery that, perhaps doesn't happen if you're only in a presbytery for 4 or 5 years. You know, whatever happens there, if if I can be of help to the Presbyterian, that's great. If I can be of help in at the Marshall Church, that's great. And and so I'm looking for God's leading. I've explored some, I want to spend more time with my family and and do some genealogy, and I'll do a little travel and that kind of thing, but I think God's in all that.
Rusty:I think God has, you know, I'm gonna continue to serve God, with just at a slower pace. You know, the 6 or 7 days a week, which I have done as a pastor, is just I don't guess it's sustainable, one, and it's probably not good for my health and other, but, beyond that, I think my family, you know, may have lost out some through the years, and I think God wants me to enjoy that. I've gotten a grandson and, enjoying going to visit him. He's about 6 months old and, see my kids and, the son and the daughter and I look forward to spending more time with them and, but, quitting doing what you know, God's God's still working with me. And I'll tell you where is revelations or things that come to me as toward the end of my ministry and now too.
Rusty:One of the things I've observed is that, when I was young in the ministry, I was much more judgmental. Call it mellowing, calling it I call it maturing to understand that life isn't as simple as what you observe it to be and that a lot of people are struggling, and that's why they don't go to church the way they should or that's why, you know, if you're a caregiver and, you know, you just can't leave that person, that doesn't mean you're not a good Christian, you know. Some of those things that have come along through time have been have made me more understanding of where Christians have not been as visible as they should be. Now, in a perfect world, everybody muddles through and struggles through and, no matter what, they're involved in the church and serving God. But because I know my imperfections and I know the ways that I failed God and others, I know that other people are dealing with that.
Rusty:So I kind of came up with a thing, and I'm trying to come up with a really catchy phrase for it, but I haven't gotten there yet. That is we all need amazing grace. We all need that grace and forgiveness for where we fail each other and and certainly fail God. But there are high expectations. So my deal is kind of a colon thing, Amazing Grace, colon, high expectations because and that call it sanctification or moving towards sanctification, whatever you want to call it, it's kind of the there is a high expectation for Christians, not just pastors, but for Christians to continue to progress in the faith and to continue to seek God's will and continue to, become more and more like Christ.
Rusty:And I we don't hear a lot about that because everybody wants to talk about nobody's perfect, but I I think that we need to wanna be. And, so I guess perhaps in, in the future, it's gonna be, hey. I'm gonna love you no matter what, but there's an expectation here, and we need to for me and for you, and we need to do a good job at that. And so I'm hoping to be super loving and understanding and compassionate and at the same time call people to take up their cross and follow Christ and maybe the first one that fails and the first one that believes in it all at the same time. That's that's really important to me.
Rusty:The maturing in the faith, is is an understanding that humans are never gonna be there. They're just never gonna make it. And, so we gotta love each other.
T.J.:From the perspective of a seeker or maybe someone who hasn't made a profession of faith, Rusty, what would you say to them if they were to say, look, where is god in this vast universe? Where is God working or present in this cosmos? You talk about God. You're a minister, but where is God in today?
Rusty:Yeah. I and I I I think that is a huge question for the for the future, of the church in general. But, I would respond, not being a smart aleck, but I'd respond that where isn't god, that, and the good that we experience in our lives, to me, all of it comes from God. And so when you experience love of your family or spouse or a child or a friend, when you experience that kind of deep love, that's a God thing. That doesn't that is not in nature and it's certainly not in human nature per se.
Rusty:I mean, I know that some good atheist people have loved one another, but it's to me, I see the the positive influences that were expressed in Jesus Christ for the world, that if we would just follow that, we'd be a lot better off. And and in kind of the doctor Phil thing, how's that working out for you? You know, it's it's it's, you know, show me why it isn't, you know, every bit as much as show me why it is. Because, I think the good things in life are the are the godly things. I think the the things that we experience where somebody goes and, you know, I've I've yet to see a truck at the disasters of the country that say the atheist of America are here to help serve me.
Rusty:I I it's not a put down to atheists. I I understand people struggling, I really do, but when you turn around and look at the good, it's normally the Christians that are that are leading the way, and And so why would all those people be fooled? Every one of them? You know, 1 or 2, I get it. Maybe some followers, some stragglers, but not everybody.
Rusty:It's it's more, this is what it's meant to me. This is what God has meant to me, and I would want that for them without telling them they're evil and terrible if they don't, to to continue to reach out to them. And, it's you know, to come up with absolute fact for faith, you can't do it. You you but you can't tell what that faith has meant to you. You can't tell what the church has meant to you.
Rusty:You can't tell what Christ has meant to the world. And yet because we're imperfect, we don't do it right all the time, and we have been bad witnesses. So I I desire for us to be better witnesses in the world, but at the same time, I still believe there's some super dedicated people that have done tremendous work, and we would not have the good in the world that we do without it.
T.J.:I realize the complexity of the question, and I struggle with it. I ask it of most most of the guests because you could look at it in such a way, where's god working in the world today as in prove it, evidence based question. And I realized that and that the complexity that comes with that as well. For me, the question is, how do you articulate the presence of god through your life and through your vision and through your experience in everything that surrounds you. And maybe that's a better way to to phrase it.
T.J.:But, you know, as Christians, if we can say, this is where I see the seasons and the movements of god and the impact it has had on me and maybe throughout the world in terms of human history. I think that can be helpful for those who are seeking, inquiring, wanting to know more, or or just plain skeptical or don't see any room.
Rusty:Yeah. You know, on a on a regular Sunday, we're in the Bible Belt. On a regular Sunday in our county, 80% of the people aren't in church are not in church. So what have we done in bad influence, and yet what is there the positive influence that happens anyway? You know, even with the 20%, that go to worship, that participate or and, you know, then you take another 20% off of that or or only 20% are super dedicated of those who attend.
Rusty:Yeah. I just I am thoroughly impressed with what God wants out of the church, not what the church has always done, but what God wants out of the church And, and what he calls us to do is is the best way of living. There's nobody that's got it all together, atheist or Christian, agnostic, seeker, whatever you wanna call them, and nobody's got it all together. But I think as far as giving purpose to life, you know, it it to love your neighbor, to to, love God, to care for one another, to make a positive influence, to be a forgiver in a world that needs that, to be a a peacemaker in a world that is divisive, fighting each other cannot seem to get along. The church has a tremendous role that we could play better than we do.
Rusty:And, if if I have a hope for the church, it's that we would aspire to what god really wants us to do.
T.J.:Yeah. Well, let let's talk about that. Let's talk about your ideas and and your hope for the church, the church as a organization, the church as a institution, the church meaning a conglomerate of similar thinking individuals, what hopes do you have for it moving forward into this 21st century?
Rusty:Yeah. I want the church, the church universal, to be more loving and caring and representative of the ways of Christ. I really do hope for that. And in our country, I'm sure it's true most everywhere, but the one that I know the most, I wish we would be less political and less divisive, and that spills over into the church, and it breaks my heart. I dream that we could show unity, perhaps not in that we all worship in the same building, but that we all, can love one another and encourage one another in the work of Christ, in the world.
Rusty:I really do hope for that. As far as the, you know, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, you know, I I have dreams for it too, but only as part of God's kingdom, not the kingdom. You know, I I want us to grow and expand. I want us to experience, the church that has led me to Christian life and that has meant so much to me. I don't know that we have a corner on the market of Christianity, but I do believe we have something wonderful to offer.
Rusty:And, it has meant tremendous amount to me. I want us to rediscover our evangelical roots, our caring for souls, to proclaim the gospel even when it's not convenient to do so. I don't mean to be the street preacher, but I mean to find ways to be evangelical in our in our and I know I know that term has a lot of baggage to it, but it's been attached by the world, not not in the way that I understand that world. Word as far as proclaiming the gospel. I think we need to do that and do it better and do it in more places.
Rusty:You know, I I dream that money might not be a limitation for what we're trying to do, for what could be done in the church. I would love a dream of that day that what we need to do, we have the resources to do. And, honestly, as this church looks for a minister in Marshall, and a great church, by the way, one that somebody would really benefit from being a part of. I hope that, more people will respond to the call to the ministry. I hope the churches and families will help in this effort.
Rusty:I think a lot of churches have quit extending the call. Don't know that, but I know that people aren't responding. It could just be a season where people are closing their ears to the call, but I don't believe God quits calling. And, and I also feel like that, that we need to, as families not discourage people that are thinking about going into the ministry. I love, the new program that we have, the Kaleo, program that, helps people explore that call.
Rusty:I think there are people that are not sure, you know, am I just being called to be a good lay person or am I called to be, some sort of a minister of some sort? And you know, I've say this along the way, through the years we've had a great need for associate pastors, but when you're so short that you don't have enough for for senior pastors or just the the only pastor of a church, it's hard to get those people to go into, youth work, Christian education work, mission work. It's although we seem to be able to get missionaries a lot easier than we can get a youth pastor, but to me I don't see a more important field of proclaiming the gospel than the teens that are, that are in our churches. To me I always saw it that way. I never felt like I was a second class pastor, when I was an associate pastor, when I dealt with the youth, or when I took the senior adults on a trip, or when I dealt with bible school.
Rusty:I felt like all of that was important. And, but we need pastors. We need, people that love the church and understand the needs of this proclamation being done in the world, and the churches need to understand their purpose better. I think we need to be better at at, knowing why we exist. I'm not saying that people are ignorant or they've never thought of it.
Rusty:We just need to be purposeful in the fact that it needs to be reiterated over and over again. Here's why we're here's why we're here. Not just here so that you can enjoy the music. We're here so that you can you know, so that together, we can go about.
T.J.:Well, Rusty, while you're here, how can those listening continue to follow you on your faith journey?
Rusty:Well, they're certainly welcome to call me. They're certainly welcome to email me. Is that what we're asking? You know, I don't have a podcast or a or a, something that out there that or somebody can call me but you can call me. I'm if if my if your last name is Ruston Haven, you're Camden name So call some Ruston Haven somewhere and get the door.
T.J.:They will eventually find you. Okay.
Rusty:You will find me. In Marshall, Texas, I can guarantee you'll find me.
T.J.:Alright. Does Marshall have the Cumberland Presbyterian Church have a Facebook page or something that they can find a way to connect to you?
Rusty:We do. Not to be presumptive of our brothers and sisters in Missouri, but we're the Marshall Cumberland Presbyterian Church, that Marshall Cumberland Presbyterian is Facebook.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Rusty:You could get a hold of me that way. I have my own Facebook. I think it's Rusty, Rusty, so you can look me up that way. And I do have an email, rusty@cumberlandofmarshall.com. So, they could reach me in any of those ways, But but love to talk to him.
Rusty:Obviously, you don't get to talk when you talk to me, so know that going in. You know? I try not to talk too much, but I can't help it. I'm passionate about these things.
T.J.:Rusty, I wanna thank you, 1, for being an influence on my teenage years, coming up in a different church, but sharing those retreats and mission trips and, other events.
Rusty:You noticed I didn't go into all that. Well Some of the things that I know about you. So Well experience with you, but, I I knew that you mature. So I was so proud of you and what you're doing in our denomination. And I see in the missionary messenger and I see in this podcast and other things that you do.
Rusty:I really do appreciate it.
T.J.:Well, I thank you for exercising what you're talking about earlier, exercising your grace for not sharing.
Rusty:We can do that probably.
T.J.:Rusty, thank you so much, really, for being a a good influence on me, with your patience and forbearance, and thank you for sharing yourself on this podcast today. I appreciate it.
Rusty:Thank you very much.
T.J.:And thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with me on the next journey down Cumberland Road.
