Sandra Shepherd - Striving To Listen Well (Part 2)
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. Here is the second half of my conversation with Reverend Sandra Shepherd. We pick up right where Sandra is exploring a call into the ordained ministry and discovers affirmation in the most interesting ways. Sandra is the associate minister at the Brent Haven Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Brentwood, Tennessee. In this part of our conversation, her calling into ministry is taking shape, and the skill of listening well is part of that shaping. Later, Sandra suggests a revisit on how ministry, specifically pastoral ministry, is perceived. Perceived by both the minister and the local church. And I think she is on to something here. You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and here is Sandra Shepherd sharing her faith journey.
Sandra:Not too long after that, my family went to the beach, and this is, Scott and me and mom and dad. And we were walking along the beach near sunset time. Mom and I were having some conversation, and as our conversations often do, they ended up kind of going in a theological direction just because that's who we are and and how we think. And so, as we were just about finished with our walk, almost back to where we were on the beach to start with, she said, well, someday when you go to seminary, blah blah blah blah blah. And I thought, woah.
Sandra:What? What? Woah. What? And I did not know what to do with that.
Sandra:And so I basically didn't respond to that, and I just conversation. But, she was, you know, saying you'll you'll get into this more later. And, it just it blew my mind. And, anyway, so that was that was the next hint at this. Then let's see.
Sandra:I talked to Scott and I were on a walk. Walks are good for me apparently. Scott and I were on a walk and we were about back to home and I said, you'll never believe what TJ said to me the other day. He said, what? And so I told him what our conversation had been.
Sandra:And he said, well, don't be in such a hurry to push that aside. Well, that was the end of that.
T.J.:You
Sandra:know? I I didn't say a whole lot more about it. But this kept nibbling at my brain and my heart, and I didn't know what to do with it. And to me, the question was not will I answer God's call, but is this God calling? And so just making sure that it was a valid call, not something I just wanted to be there or didn't want.
Sandra:I didn't know. But I wanted to know, was this really real? So as as world this around for the summer. And as the summer drew to a close, I thought I have got to I've got to have an answer to this. So I said, I I need to go talk to David.
Sandra:My brother David is a minister, and his wife is a minister, and they live in North Carolina. And I thought David's my go to guy, so I'm gonna go talk to him and see if he can help me through this. Well, it was closing in on Labor Day. Schools were starting back. The kids were gonna be going to school.
Sandra:Dave was gonna be busy with new semester stuff at the church and all these things. And I thought there's just no way. And Scott said, we'll call them and see if y'all can't get together just for a day or so. No. There's there's no point in calling now.
Sandra:There's just no point in calling it. We'll call them. Just call them. And I call and and he said, you know, is there any way? I know you got stuff going on.
Sandra:Are you busy and blah, blah, blah, but can I squeeze in a time sometime soon? Well, why don't you come over Labor Day, he says, because it just so happens that we got a little bit of free time then. I thought, damn it. So so we hopped in the car and went, and Scott was gonna stay with the, niece and nephew while while I talked with the parents and my brother and his wife. And, so they went off bowling and, David and Catherine and I sat there.
Sandra:And I hadn't said to them what why I was coming. I just told them I need to talk about something. And so we all just kind of didn't know what to do and everything, but then we sat down in the living room and I said, I came to, and I was gonna say, I came to see if you could help me figure out, discern whether this is a real call. But what came out of my mouth is I've been called to ordain ministry. And and once I heard myself say it out loud, it felt right.
Sandra:There was this peace and I knew it was real. So that was a long convoluted way to get there to discerning whether or not this was a real call. But it was the one I had to take. It was the journey I had to take, to be sure. And at that point, I felt really confident that was true.
Sandra:I did not, however, feel confident of what that meant. I knew I needed to go to seminary, and pursue ordination, but I didn't have any idea what that would be like in terms of how this ministry would manifest.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Sandra:Because I knew I did not want to be the preacher at the church. That just I don't have any administrative skills or interests. I don't have that kind of, inclination at all. So I didn't really know how else this might work out. But I thought, okay.
Sandra:Well, we're gonna go find out.
T.J.:Let me interrupt you for a moment. I just now thought about this. I really had the easiest part then in looking back because I just shared what I saw, these gifts in ministry. Mhmm. And then it wasn't too long after that that I moved on.
T.J.:Yeah. And so I didn't have to, I didn't have to, be a recipient of your anger and your questions and your why are you doing this to me kind of stuff. I've just, as you said earlier, just planted the seed. Mhmm. Quite interesting.
T.J.:I didn't know how all that fit together.
Sandra:Mhmm.
T.J.:Okay.
Sandra:So once I figured out that I needed to go to seminary, the next question was what to do about that. And, you know, Scott and I lived in Stevenson, Alabama, and seminary is not in Stevenson, Alabama. And I knew enough about myself to know that I needed to be in an immersion situation. I needed to be totally immersed in the life and work of doing seminary. So I needed a residential place.
Sandra:I needed somewhere with a reformed theology. And I looked and looked for the right place. I knew that Memphis was not it primarily because of the housing situation. There was not a really ongoing, you know, housing situation. There was temporary housing, but it not not a live in situation.
T.J.:Yeah. Not what you were looking for.
Sandra:Yeah. That I was desperately looking for. I I needed that kind of situation. So, I needed that environment of being together with other people who were doing what I was doing, but 247. I needed to live in it.
Sandra:And, because I know that's how I learn best. And so I ended up trying to make decisions and found Louisville was gonna be the place to go. So Louisville Presbyterian Seminary. I drove on the campus to check it out, pulled over, and called Scott and said, this is where I'm gonna live for the next 3 years. It just felt like home.
Sandra:So, again, that affirmation that this is right. This is the place for you. This is the right thing to be doing right now. So, I was having to learn to listen in a continuous manner, not not just, okay. You're a teacher.
Sandra:Boom. Go away now. You know? But rather I'm I'm guiding you along the path if you will just, you know, open up your ears a little bit. So, so I was learning to do that learning to do that during that process.
Sandra:I found seminary to be a challenge, particularly at first, because art education degrees did not prepare you for deep theological study. Having gone to college in the late seventies does not prepare you for graduate school in the early 2000. The last time I had had to do deep academic papers and things like that, I'd gone to the library and pulled out a little drawer and flipped through the cards to find the name of the book, and then I'd go look in the stacks. And of course, some of the people listening to this won't have a clue what I'm saying there. But, now I learned that I could do almost everything on my computer.
Sandra:And, so let's just say there was a learning curve on how to learn, just in this new age and in this new genre of learning, in this new territory academically, and beyond. So
T.J.:Now were you enjoying that? Was it a struggle? Was it fun? Was it exciting?
Sandra:All the above. It was it was hard for me, especially at first. It was, I didn't have any confidence in myself as a learner. I not well, I am real sure why. I was going to say I'm not real sure why, but I am real sure why.
Sandra:I know that I have reasonable intelligence. I know that I learned some kinds of things fairly quickly, but I also know that I like to sit back and watch until I'm sure I can succeed and not do it until I'm sure. I didn't have that opportunity in this. And so I had to dive in it, and I didn't have confidence that I was gonna come out successfully. So the time of my first Hebrew test, which, was setting me for a loop the night before, I spent primarily in tears and moaning and groaning about how I was gonna be a disgrace to my husband and to Stevenson, Alabama and to all Cumberland Presbyterian dom because I was going to flunk out they were going to make me go home.
Sandra:Well, not happen, and, you know, life went on. But fortunately, I had really wonderful friends there at that point who said to me, Sandra, this is one test in one class in 1 year in one part of seminary, which is only one part of your preparation to do ministry. It's gonna be all right. So they helped me put that into perspective, and I've used that speech in my head over and over and over again, not that class work, but with lots and lots of things. So that perspective helps me a lot.
Sandra:And all in all, it was a really fun process. It was not fun to live away from my husband for 3 years. It was not fun to be struggling with some of the things I struggled with, but it was fun to struggle with some of the things. It was fun to struggle with the theology. And, you know, you're telling me that this, but what about so and so?
Sandra:And why do you believe that when I believe this? Or why do I believe this when you believe that? And the conversations that happen in class and and the things to read and and the eyes opening to so much more in terms of how we can think of God and relate to God and interact with God and love God and what that has to do with our relationship with others on human on other humans that we share Earth with and all those things. That was exciting. That was exciting and fun and challenging, but really, really a pleasant experience.
T.J.:While you were in seminary and working towards answering this call, what did you envision this call to be?
Sandra:I really didn't have a clue what this call might be. I I knew I did not want to be the pastor of a church, the the head pastor of a church. I didn't think there were probably enough Cumberland churches that needed associates to have that work. But I know that that's really basically how I'm wired. I'm wired as more of a helper than a starter or an in charger.
Sandra:And, I love to do the creative process. I love to come up with ideas and think about ways to change things so that they might work better and so on, to assess is has this worked? Has it not worked? What can we do differently and so on? That I love, but the businessy part was not at all for me, and I didn't have any skills or desires in that department.
Sandra:I there are just too many things in that role that don't speak to me and don't that that my gifts and talents don't speak to. So I knew that was not where I wanted to be, but I didn't really like the idea of not knowing what it meant. And so I I was doing some exploring while I was there. I took a lot of classes in in Christian education, but I also took some really interesting classes in medical ethics and, you know, all kinds of other things that were that stretched my idea of what ministry might be, what my understanding of ministry. Because as I had been, severely, lacking in an understanding of a broad definition of be a teacher, I was really lacking in that understanding for be a minister too and had to do some real exploring of what that might be.
Sandra:Came out, still didn't know, but thought, well, here I am, and I'll do what you know, I'll look and see what comes up because I know this is what I'm supposed to be doing. So ended up, serving in a sweet little church, Mount Zion in Columbus, Mississippi, for a year as their pastor. Even though I knew that pastoring wasn't my primary thing, they needed some help, and my dad's health was beginning to fail. And Starkville is only 30 miles from Columbus. So I lived with my folks and worked with Mount Zion for a year, and that was a wonderful experience in so many ways.
Sandra:Get it confirmed that that's not what I need to be doing on a regular basis and forever. So came back home when Scott had a little bit of a health scare and, then tried to listen for what comes next. Found my way to Nashville, then found my way to the Brent Haven Church as associate for Christian discipleship, and I think that's a pretty good fit. I think the best fit for me would be associate for who knows what, because I have so many different interests and and passions in different areas, and they all seem to kind of intermingle and, or or will be best if they intermingle. And that's one thing that I'm called to, I think.
Sandra:But, one of the nice things about working with in Grand Haven Community is that the church family is very loving and open and focused not only on themselves, but on reaching out to others and serving others and, sharing the gospel and and sharing God's love and everything. And so the the reaching out part of it was a really attractive piece and has been a great way for me to continue to explore what it means to be in ministry.
T.J.:Could you imagine yourself when you just finished up your school to be in the place that you are now in terms of just life, ministry, relationships, service?
Sandra:No. I I could not have imagined this, at that point. I'd like I said, I didn't really have any idea where it was gonna go, but it's been fun to watch it develop. And in some ways, I am watching it develop, because I keep finding myself in new things and finding myself surprised by the kind of, ministry that I'm doing. I you know, at Brent Haven, as associate for Christian discipleship, I don't have primary responsibilities for many things.
Sandra:I don't have it for preaching or for, pastoral care or administration. That's a really good thing. I don't have a lot of those things, but that doesn't mean I don't get to be involved in some of it. And I love the fact that the pastor that I work with has a love for team approach. Kip is very eager to have himself surrounded by people whose skill sets and passions, are compatible with his, but not duplicative of his.
Sandra:He he has said out loud, if I can surround myself with people who do things I don't and that it's all the better for the kingdom. You know? It's It's a good, good thing. And we do work very collaboratively, very team oriented community there for the, not just for the staff, but for the whole congregation. And I find that delightful.
Sandra:And it gives me an opportunity to continue to grow. I've found myself doing some pastoral care in unusual circumstances and to be that pastoral ear in places that, well, I don't really wanna go talk to the pastor about this, but Sandra's here. You know? So, I had that sort of semi pastor feel to some people, and it's a way of, bridging that, I think. It is those minor things that, or the things that are just personal or that are just woman to woman kind of things.
Sandra:There are so many things that you want to talk with your pastor about, but you don't want to talk with your pastor about. And so it's nice having some choices that way. And, of course, I always am quick to refer them to the right source if that's needed. But, anyway, it's nice it's nice being in that situation.
T.J.:I saw you a few months ago at a meeting, and you approached me, and you said, TJ, I'm just now living into my call. And because of the setting and the context, we weren't able to talk. And I've had a statement kind of ringing in my head the past few months. What does that mean when you say living into my call?
Sandra:When I say living into my call, I think it means partly that I'm living into myself too. I'm continuing to discover what it is I'm called to do. Job descriptions are great for starting points, but that's all they are. And I'm not a task chest checklist kind of person. My work is much more free flowing than that.
Sandra:And I appreciate being given the opportunity to do that. I find myself developing my ministry in artistic ways. I find that my preaching is improving because I do get to preach some. I could probably preach more if I asked to, but I don't really want to. I like preaching occasionally.
Sandra:And it's good for me and it's and apparently is helpful to other people because I've had some very specific remarks that have, indicated that the way that I said something or bringing up that idea caught somebody in a different way and it made them think or it helped them realize something. I you know, there are all different kinds of comments, but they're specific enough for me to know, yeah, it made a difference that I preached today. And that's terribly rewarding. Very, very rewarding. And I can't tell you it doesn't give me a thrill because it does.
Sandra:I I love knowing that that that something that I have done has had an impact on someone, a positive impact on someone. I'm also growing more comfortable with the idea of not having to, let me say that a little differently. I'm growing more comfortable with nonstandard ways of doing ministry. I'm growing more comfortable with knowing there doesn't need to be a product at the end of all my work. There doesn't need to be a program that comes out of some work.
Sandra:There doesn't need to be a file that comes out of it. That sometimes just being and listening and having conversation, those are things that are valuable. I've come to realize that my Thursday at 1 o'clock lunches with the ladies after crafts can be ministry, even when we're not talking about theological issues. I've come to realize that just hanging around during Sunday school or whoever ends up in what we call the Narthex class, people just sitting on the couch and chatting, that can be valuable ministry. I've learned that my singing can be a part of my ministry.
Sandra:I've learned that just being myself can be a part of my ministry. And that's the part that makes me wanna go back and say, but I'm already doing it to you one more time. You're in the ministry that I was called to. And I was. And and I still am, but I'm recognizing it as ministry more too now.
Sandra:I'm also growing into encouraging others, equipping the saints is more my thing now. Mhmm. Has been. I've been in the past, I've have had this self imposed need to, as I say, do some product or some something needs to come out at the end of this that can be evaluated. And I'm finding that evaluation is not necessary for everything.
Sandra:Some of your most important ministry, has been planting seeds in heads of little old women who need to go to seminary. And, you know, there there does happen to be a product at the end of that, but you didn't know that there would be. And it would still have been an important thing to do in your midst.
T.J.:Alright. Now let me push back a little bit or let's stay here for a moment because there are a lot of people in ministry right now who feel the pressures of producing a program, a product, an end result at the end of the day or the end of the week, What advice do you have for ministers serving out there right now who feel that pressure and may not have the ability to express and maybe relax and experiment in the ways that you have? What words of encouragement do you have for them?
Sandra:I'd like to encourage others in ministry to take their work very seriously, but not themselves so seriously. I think that the work that we do is incredibly important. But it doesn't always have to be measured and evaluated. I the the be still part, be still and know that I'm God, the be still part is something that we have a really hard time with sometimes.
T.J.:Alright. To push you
Sandra:Living in god's presence is is another piece. Go ahead.
T.J.:To push you even more. Yes. So how do I be still and then feed my sheep?
Sandra:Right. Right. I know that one of my friends from seminary showed me her contract. And instead of saying you're gonna do this for this much money or for this in housing or whatever, it was, in order that you may be fully engaged in your ministry, we're gonna do these things for you. And that included the the dollars, the house, the whatever, all that package stuff.
Sandra:But that was the church's obligation to you. And then the the person on the other end of the contract, the minister, says, yes. This is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna I'm gonna be your minister. I'm gonna be your pastor, your god, your leader, whatever.
Sandra:The whole concept of a congregation freeing a minister to do what the minister needs to do, to do ministry, is I think a really good approach because a lot of ministry is not measurable. It reminds me of teachers in classrooms and standardized tests. There are so many teachers who are so frustrated with standardized tests because, A, they don't tell how far a child has come from the beginning of the year, but only where they are now. And it only does it in certain areas of their understanding and their education. It's almost impossible to measure on a standardized test the social growth, the emotional growth of a human being, their citizenship in the classroom and in the world, their ability to find joy and to encourage others, and all those things, you can't mark a, b, c, d on those and get an answer.
Sandra:So it's frustrating for a teacher who knows there's so much more to this student than what you're measuring, and you're giving me this this answer of here's what this kid is in these scores. And I know that this kid is so much more. This kid is the one who goes to sit next to somebody who doesn't have anybody to sit with them at lunch. This kid is the one who blah, blah, blah. And it's disheartening to have your work as a teacher judged in that way that is so limited.
Sandra:The same is true for ministers. To say, well, you're not in the office 30 hours, and you haven't spent proper preparation on your sermon and you haven't visited every person at home and every person in the hospital and you haven't been on all these committees, those things counteract one another. You cannot be in the office and serving presbytery at some function and visiting somebody in the hospital all at the same time. A lot of the work that ministry involves is behind the scenes and, not everybody sees it, and they shouldn't. They shouldn't see a lot of the work that ministry is that ministry is.
Sandra:It's inappropriate, But then how can they evaluate by looking at your number of hours in the office or your number of committees that you're on, or your number of this or that or the other, or if you've been elected moderator of something, or, you know, those kinds of things are measures of something, but they're not measures of the whole picture. And so I I think that we as ministers need to stand up for ourselves and each other and say there's more to ministry than you recognize. There's more that happens in a family than just making sure everybody's fed and clothed and housed. There's more than that, and we're not privy to all of it that that's entailed in that, and you're not with ministry, but you need to trust us that we're doing ministry here. And then we need to trust ourselves.
Sandra:We need to trust ourselves that not everything has to be measurable because that's inappropriate. It's inappropriate for everything to be measured. Some things aren't measurable.
T.J.:So the perspective of a minister should change upon herself, himself, but also the local congregation in the session as well. So maybe the expectations of the congregation should be reevaluated and discerned as well in terms of of what ministry can look like and what ministry is and what's actually feasible
Sandra:Yes.
T.J.:And turn away from
Sandra:To be done. Because because sometimes congregations don't see some needs that they have, and a minister will come in and see that need and help them work through that or help to fulfill that need that they didn't even know they had. So when they had this list of things they thought would fill the 40 hours, then, you know, it's very unrealistic because that's not at all what you need. You might want to take supplements, but what if you really needed an antibiotic, you know? You need to get an evaluation and understanding of what current needs.
Sandra:My needs now are different than they were 3 years ago, and they're different than they were 2 years ago, and they're different than they will be next year. Because life changes, and our society changes, and the way we interact with each other at church and in the community have severely changed over the last few years.
T.J.:Yeah. Because what I what I want is that the church to move away from the consumerism aspect that, okay, at the end of the day, you you provide us a product, a means, a program. And, I mean, what does that say if evangelism and discipleship is about relationships? It isn't a product nor a program. But moving away from that aspect, both as a minister and I think as a congregation, as a denomination at the church at large, requires a new hardwiring of of who we are.
Sandra:Yeah. It does. And if if our focus is on making sure that everybody has a committee to be on and that each committee produces something during the year and all of that, then that's one kind of focus. But if our focus is on helping God's reign now exist on earth, you know, thy kingdom come on earth. We want we want god's kingdom to be here.
Sandra:And if that's gonna be the case, then we may not have a program for that. You know? It may involve gardening, you know, and that might be a program but it might be just a lot of sweat and blood. And, you know, there are a lot of things that have to happen to do ministry.
T.J.:Taking a look at the church, the church at large.
Sandra:Mhmm.
T.J.:What what are some of our greatest gifts that can be offered to humanity and creation?
Sandra:I think that Christ's church has Christ to offer. That if we remember that that that is what we have. We have Christ as not only savior, redeemer, but teacher and friend and companion, an example. If we understand God and Jesus in those ways, it's very, very helpful. And when somebody says, you know, wonder why that person is that way, whether it's they just shot up from a school full of children or they just jumped in the river to save a bunny.
Sandra:You know, I mean, it says, what kind of person are you? What where what's what are your core values? What's going on inside of you? And there are good people who don't understand Jesus, don't have don't know that they have a relationship with Jesus. But a lot of times, it's that selfless goodness that you can see in someone that makes you think, I wonder, I wonder, what's going on here?
Sandra:And to dig a little deeper and and find Christ there. There are a lot of Christians that go around with Jesus just leaking out of them all over the place. There's love, there's joy, there's help, there's, concern for justice, all these things. And we need to share that. We need to share that.
Sandra:We need to call attention to not only Jesus as ticket to heaven or a lock on the door of hell or however you wanna consider it. But Jesus, as someone who makes a difference in your life now and can make life so rich and full and meaningful and helpful.
T.J.:Well, let's add to that. What ideas, what dreams does Sandra have for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
Sandra:I think right now, my primary dream for the Cumberland Church is deeper understanding of what it means to love all God's children, love all God's beloved children, and that every human being here is indeed one of God's beloved children. I'm I don't like some of the things that some people do. I don't like the way some people think, but that doesn't mean that they're not god's beloved, that they're not my sisters and brothers. And I want to really love my siblings. And I'd like for us all to really love all of our siblings.
Sandra:And that may mean that we need to have a little deeper understanding of what sibling means, that that we really are siblings. And this isn't the part of siblinghood when you're fighting over that's my toy, that's your toy. But we're in this together. We are family. We are family.
Sandra:Deep family. And we need to be pleased with that. We need to rejoice in that.
T.J.:Sandra, what are you reading? And what do you recommend?
Sandra:I love to read books about animals like James Harriet stories. I love those. I love to read mysteries, psychological things, or or police drama kinds of things, you know, or or legal legal thrillers or whatever. I I enjoy those. But, honestly, the books that I'm most drawn to are children's literature, really good children's literature.
Sandra:Part of that, I think, is from my history as a kindergarten teacher and from my history as an art educator. But part of it is my real love for the depth of the stories, the depth of the meaning in children's good children's literature. Even little picture books, story books that you read to preschoolers and kindergarteners and early elementary kids, there's so much in those. And it's so easy to see theological things in those books if you open your eyes to them. I remember when I was doing my internship with Hope Presbyterian Church, which is a, what do you call it, church with with their both CP and PCUSA.
Sandra:What is that?
T.J.:Union.
Sandra:Union church. They're a union church. Hope is a union church, and I was working with them as an interim during seminary. And during that summer, we had a vacation bible school about something about a theme was trains. I don't remember what it was, but it was about trains.
Sandra:And so one of my tasks was to be sure to provide some extra little books for the classroom so when you get through with whatever project, you've got a minute, you can read this little book with your kids before you send them on to the next station. So I did that and put lots of little train books and train thing, toys, and stuff around in the different rooms. One of the volunteer teachers came to me one evening and said, guess what I just learned? Said, well, tell me. Tell me what you learned.
Sandra:I just learned that the, story of the little engine that could is like the good Samaritan. And I said, oh? I said, yes. 1 of my second graders heard the story and said, that's like the good Samaritan. And she said, well, why?
Sandra:I said, because the one that was the the train car that was least expected to help was the one that helped. Ah. There's some theology, honey bunch. You know? You've found something good in there.
Sandra:And, you know, that is that's great. That is exciting to see. And when you can when you find overt things like that in there, specific things like that, it it's so great to see that you can also find kindness and you can find meanness. And what does that do when you see meanness in a book? Well, you don't like that.
Sandra:You don't want that. And so that helps guide you. It's not just in terms of, you know, being a good person or whatever. You could say lots of other deep things that Jesus tried really hard to teach us and God has asked us to to follow through with and so on. And it's just it's really wonderful to see so much in in young children's literature.
T.J.:Sandra, what words do you have for a young person or young at heart who is serving in a local church and has great gifts, and you recognize those gifts, and they see the gifts in themselves, how do you help them discern the next step? Or if there is a next step, in sharing those gifts with as many people as possible.
Sandra:When I see someone with gifts for ministry of any sort, I try to encourage that and to nurture that in any way I can, but I also try to verbalize that I see those gifts and recognize that that's what they are. I find myself saying to, you know, kids in in elementary school age, Sunday school class. You know, that was a a very loving thing that you just did, and it showed me that you understand that god's love is to be shared and things like that. With a little bit older youth, I try to reflect for them what it is that I've seen. I try to I try to be holding up the mirror to them to let them see that that's really real in there and that it has deep value.
Sandra:I do the same with adults. Helping them to find that next step is a challenge. But I think all I've thought of so far, all I've been able to do so far, is to say, I see this as real ministry that you're doing. Are there other ways that you do ministry? Things like that.
Sandra:And engage them in what they see, are there other ways that you do ministry? Things like that. And engage them in what they see,
Sandra:Things like that. And engage them in what they see. And if they say, oh, that's not ministry, I try to help them reevaluate that. And if they say, oh, well, I don't do ministry, well, I try to help them reevaluate that and open up the possibility of seeing the way you live your life as the kind of ministry you're doing. That's kind of the seed seed part for me.
Sandra:That's where I plant seeds.
T.J.:Sandra, thank you so much for sharing your faith journey, for letting me be a part of it, and especially the best part, say something wild and then leave.
Sandra:That's your style, TJ. What can I say? I've got got one more story I wanna share, if I may.
T.J.:Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Sandra:In my high school years, I remember, or maybe junior high years, one significant, interaction I had with a pastor. Our pastor came to pick us up. It was Robert Lake, and Robert came over and picked up David and me and took us out into the country to a little old shack that you could see straight through from one side through to the other. And it was sad looking. And we walked in, we had brought plywood and big plastic sheeting.
Sandra:We stapled the the people were not home. We stapled the plastic sheeting over the broken windows
T.J.:Mhmm.
Sandra:That there would not be air coming straight through. We plopped the plywood over the big gaping hole in the kitchen floor that went straight through to dirt. Did a couple of other little things, but mostly that was what we had done. And and we left, and it was getting cold outside. And I said, Robert, is that is that really gonna keep them warm?
Sandra:And he said, it's gonna help. And the plastic on the windows will too. So I heard from that that our love and our service helps to keep people warm And the tasks that we undertake are a part of that, but not all of it. And our acts of service are significant just as acts of service. And hopefully, they will also have practical impact in some way or another.
Sandra:Mhmm.
T.J.:Sandra, thank you for letting me be part of your faith journey. You just never know how we we interact with each other, and you get circles back around, and you end up sharing ministries and reconnecting. And I thank you for telling your faith journey with me. You filled in some gaps or some of the things I forgot, but also given me the opportunity to share it with others. It was a beautiful thing to be able to do a thing like a podcast, connect people, hear their faith journeys, be inspired, be encouraged, share our journeys with others, and share our relationship with others.
Sandra:Well, I appreciate the opportunity, TJ. It's been nice to reconnect with you in a in a deeper way than we often get a chance to do. And, I hope that this will spark something in someone and help them see some ministry that they can do or that they are doing.
T.J.:That's a good thing about a relationship because we've laughed. We've told jokes. We've gotten serious a little bit here and there. And then having the ability of sharing it with other people, I don't know. It's inspiring.
T.J.:It's probably one of those immeasurable things.
Sandra:Good stuff. Yeah. Agree.
T.J.:If you are enjoying Cumberland Road, please subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and Google Podcast. And now we'll close our conversation with words from doctor Seuss in the story, Oh, the Places You'll Go. On and on you will hike, and I know you'll hike far, and face up to your problems, whatever they are. You'll get mixed up, of course, as you already know. You'll get mixed up with many strange birds as you go. So be sure when you step, step with care and great tact, and remember that life's a great balancing act. Just never forget to be dexterous and deft, and never mix up your right foot with your left.
