Sandra Shepherd - Striving To Listen Well (Part 1)
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. This is the 100th episode of Cumberland Road. I've pondered for a while of what to say, if anything, to mark this occasion. I want to express my thanks to the guests who have taken time out of their busy lives to be in conversation with me. To speak of our faith is typically perceived as an intimate and private matter. There is a perceived risk to put your voice and your thoughts, your beliefs and your values out there for others to hear. And yet, wonderful people have been willing to open their lives and share how they understand their relationship with god and to one another and their hopes and their aspirations for the church. I am humbled with each conversation and the power found in conversing, exchanging ideas, developing new relationships, and strengthening existing ones. The opportunity to hear, laugh, and shed tears, and express deep thoughts has encouraged me, and I hope it is doing the same when you listen with each new guest. I'm also grateful grateful for the support of the guest and for you as you listen. You've probably perceived a long learning curve of what it takes in developing a podcast. Finding guests, asking questions that lead to engaging conversations, editing, and publishing on a weekly basis, and perhaps most importantly, to practice the powerful skill of listening. Looking forward, I will strive to provide faith conversations that are open and honest, to engage deeply about what matters, living with joys and struggles, how the Christian faith speaks to our living, and how this dynamic, unique, quirky, wonderful, little denomination called the Cumberland Presbyterian Church is witnessing and spreading love in this world. I will do so with both humility and gratitude, 2 important human characteristics much needed right now. The Cumberland Road guest for this 100th episode is Reverend Sandra Shepherd. Sandra is the associate minister at the Brent Haven Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Brentwood, Tennessee. She is a talented singer, a wonderful crafter, and has been sharing a wide range of gifts with the church as both a layperson and clergy. For transparency, I have a small part in Sandra's faith journey. So our conversation is, at times, both light and deep, intimate and silly. And as I've done with some previous conversations, this is a 2 part episode. So now my dear friends, enjoy this faith conversation on the Cumberland Road with Sandra Shepherd.
T.J.:Hello, Sandra. Thank you for joining me on the podcast. This is quite an honor to be able to be in conversation with you. You've been part of my faith journey, and, I look forward to hearing yours.
Sandra:Thank you, TJ. I'm excited to be with you in this conversation. It's always interesting to me that when I tell my faith journey, I tend to highlight different parts depending on whom I'm talking with or what has happened recently in my life, but the thread is still always the same.
T.J.:Your beginnings start in Mississippi. Were you born there?
Sandra:No. Actually, I was born in Ann Arbor, Michigan while my father was finishing at University of Michigan. And then we moved to Tuscaloosa when I was 2. And then we moved to Mississippi when I was 5. And that's when my conscious memory really kicks in for, major things.
Sandra:So I started school in Starkville.
T.J.:Okay. So I was wrong, but also right. That's correct. Your earliest beginnings were not Mississippi, but your recollection probably begins while you were there.
Sandra:There you go.
T.J.:What brought your family to Starkville, Mississippi?
Sandra:Well, my father had been, he, as I said, finished his PhD at, Michigan in, speech and, actually rhetorical criticism was his focus. And, so he moved to then to University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa and taught there for a couple of years. And then Mississippi State decided they were gonna start a speech department, instead of having that be a part of the English department. And they asked him if he would come and start things off, so he did, and was the head of the speech department until it became the communication department and, a major part of the university. So it was it was home base for us there.
T.J.:What is rhetorical criticism?
Sandra:That is looking at speeches and any kind of public statements and saying, okay, what's behind this? Let's break this down. So it's kind of same thing we do with passages of scripture and anything else, try to think about what's the background, and where was this person coming from and what was their main point and and how did they go about saying it and why and was it effective or not, and what do we do with it?
T.J.:So were there those kinds of conversations and experiments happening in the household?
Sandra:Absolutely. There were, you know, I don't remember at age 5, digging delving deeply into some big public speech. But every time there was something interesting on the news or a speech that was made by, a political person or, something like that, there was conversation about it. Not only the content, but what that content was part of. So the context of that content.
Sandra:And it wasn't done in the classroom style, but it was very much a conversation and and learning to think critically, learning to think how things happen and why things happen and, what choices are made and how they have an impact on other things.
T.J.:I would imagine that psychology and theology could come into play in terms of context and intent.
Sandra:Absolutely. Absolutely. And I one of the one of the real honest to goodness speech communication lessons that I learned early on was, you know, we think about communication as being, I talk to you and you talk to me, or something along those lines. But I remember dad showing a, a diagram of how communication really happens. And it happens with the thought of the sender, and then they have to process it and send it in some way.
Sandra:And, of course, in talking, it's through our brains and then our mouths, but that includes our lips and our teeth and our tongue. So there's that whole process. And then the message travels and then it's received by ears and eyes and things like that, then it's interpreted again and understood. And if the thing that you meant to say to somebody is actually the thing that they hear and understand, it's kind of a miracle, but that's the patient right there. So it's no wonder that we have so much trouble with making ourselves understood and having people, get what it is we're trying to say because they're deep decomposing their deep their process system on the on the receiving end is very different than what we think somebody else's might be or somebody else's might be.
Sandra:So the same thing will be received by different people in entirely different ways.
T.J.:Growing up in that home environment, how do you think that has played out into adulthood with your relationships?
Sandra:Oh, I think it's been really helpful in that I've learned to listen well. I've learned to listen for what's behind the message. I've I've learned to reflect a little bit. Is this what you're trying to say to me, or what I hear you saying is this? So, there's that striving to real communication that happens that I have understood is necessary and not just take things at face value.
Sandra:It's also when I was teaching kindergarten, it was it was a challenge for me because every time I would write a note to one of the parents, I would write it and rewrite it and rewrite it and rewrite it, trying to make sure that it couldn't be misunderstood in one way or another. And of course, it's impossible to avoid any misunderstanding. But to carefully craft a message is critical, I think. And it's a challenge for me because I'm very much an off the cuff kind of person. I respond to things quickly, and I think as I'm talking instead of before I talk.
Sandra:And so, it's a it's a challenge for me. It's why I have to sometimes stop and think and then respond, but that's not natural for me.
T.J.:That's interesting because I would think it'd be quite the opposite, like an email or maybe even a text. But some form of communication where you just drain yourself. Is it is this worded right? Is it is it conveying the message that that I want to the recipient? And and, you know, where it may take one person 3 minutes to type out the email, it may take 17 for for you or for another person.
T.J.:It's just with that rhetorical criticism of being able to, is this saying what I want it to say? Is this conveying
Sandra:what I want? It's a little bit easier with the spoken word. So when I'm preparing a sermon, which is not very frequently because I don't preach all the time. But when I am preparing a sermon, I do have all that going on inside of me, and I do have to rewrite and reconfigure and all that sort of thing so often, and it takes me forever to prepare a sermon. Some people can't prepare a sermon in an afternoon or a single day, And it takes me the good solid week because I have to to think it through and and do all the exegesis and all those things, but also then even just when I know what I wanna say out of it, it takes so long to fine tune it and, prepare it in a way that that it will be understood.
Sandra:Again, the spoken word is helped by all the inflections and the facial expressions and things like that. So that's a little bit of a help, but, it's a challenge nonetheless.
T.J.:So what is it like to communicate with a group or a room full of kindergartners?
Sandra:It's pretty fun and challenging. Kindergartners, you know, will be approximately age 5, and they are at the point that they are very much understanding what it is to be a social creature, a part of a group, and that sort of thing. So, you know, relationships have developed and people want to be interacting and that sort of thing. And there's a lot of understanding of words and directions and that sort of thing. But there's also a lot of distraction.
Sandra:So it's hard to focus. And that was one of the challenges for me because I'm easily distracted. And and when they get distracted and I get distracted, everybody's distracted, you know? But it it's a lot of fun because I have some, some performer in me, and I like to do things in way I can plan things, to do things in ways that will, you know, call and capture attention and keep it. And so that's fun.
Sandra:And I really enjoyed working with the kindergarteners. I enjoyed aspects of working with individuals and also with groups at that age, just watching the development because it's a pretty critical time in life to begin to to study intentionally. You know, until then, study has been through play and just experiencing life in general. But now, we're doing a focused, a more focused study, and we're thinking about things that somebody else is telling us to think about, and guiding us to think about. But that guided part is really critical.
Sandra:And I find that guided discovery is an excellent way to teach most things, including from the pulpit.
T.J.:What point in your life where the young Sandra, the little Sandra, wanted to become the school teacher? Did you know all along?
Sandra:Because and
T.J.:and let me feed
Sandra:Kind of. Let me feed it. Knew that I was gonna be a school teacher, from from early days because I liked, doing well, let's start off with this. I love crayons, crayola crayons, and pencils, and little boxes, and things like that. So the paraphernalia of education is very attractive to me.
Sandra:So that was a part of it. And, but I also really enjoyed school and enjoyed the play acting of school at home with my friends and so on. So, you know, sometimes we would play store and storekeeper and this and that and the other, but, school was a a really good thing to play, and I enjoyed being both the student and the teacher. So, you know, whereas at that time, I didn't have a very realistic understanding of what it meant to be a teacher, but I liked telling people what to do. I thought that was.
T.J.:Well, that doesn't run through your life anymore though. You don't tell people what to do.
Sandra:Just ask my husband. I occasionally make strong suggestions. Let's put it that way. But, no, I'm not I'm not a very bossy person at this point. I'm I have strong ideas, but I don't generally tell people what to do.
Sandra:No. That's not my thing.
T.J.:Well, staying into your childhood, youth years, can you recall a meaningful experience that you've you've had with God? If I remember correctly, you did grow up in the Presbyterian Church family.
Sandra:That's correct. That's correct. I grew up in the in what was the PC, the Presbyterian Church US at that point, and then later it became PCUSA. Grew up in that tradition and was, very much a part of it. I remember being part of the children's choir and that was significant to me.
Sandra:I loved music. I was a dancer as a young child and, I loved music and I loved all of that. So, being able to be involved in that way in church was a wonderful thing, and it helped me find my way of serving in that and also growing, and and there was the social aspect of it. Learned to read music there, you know? So that was nice too.
Sandra:Other things that were significant to me Oh, I remember, I've just got to tell you this. I remember in preschool or kindergarten, Sunday school, we had the sweetest teacher, just the sweetest teacher, and she would always ask us, now, how many of you have read your Bible every day this week? I've raised my hand just so proudly. Of course, I had not. But, you know, I wanted to be part of that group.
Sandra:I wanted to be someone that pleased her, and I wanted to be someone that would do something like that. I always thought that was a good idea, but that unfortunately didn't become a habit of mine at that stage of my life. So, anyways, that was that was one experience that I had that was very positive and negative at the same time, because I was I was positive with the idea that that was good and negative. In fact, that I just lied, I lied to my Sunday school teacher that I'd been reading my Bible every day. Another thing I remember, early ish, was in youth group.
Sandra:I remember we had a couple who were, like, late college, early graduate school age, who were part of who directed our youth group, and we it was great. That was another thing with music. We developed a group called Genesis, and we would, we were there was that happened to be a time when there was a wave of people who were very interested in music coming through that youth group. And Is
T.J.:this with Phil Collins? Phil Collins Genesis or you you formed
Sandra:your Genesis group? This was Trinity Genesis. Okay. So, we, but we sang, all kinds of, you know, folk mass kind of stuff was really in right then, and, different different songs that we might have heard at camp or that were that kind of thing that weren't hymns Mhmm. But a more relaxed music and guitar and that sort of thing.
Sandra:And so that was a really a big part of my life too at that point. And we toured and we went to the state prison, and, things like that to do programs. And and it was it was a lot of fun, and it was a really good way to find out that music could be part of outreach.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Sandra:I enjoyed that.
T.J.:My first encounter with you was or what I remember first of you is a, very specifically painted vehicle, a car that you had, Subaru. I don't know if you do this anymore or not, but, years ago, you were associated with a particular vehicle that was painted up like blue jeans.
Sandra:That's correct.
T.J.:So how talk more about how the your personality and and maybe your vehicle, I don't know if you do it anymore
Sandra:Mhmm.
T.J.:Help represent and speak about who you are and what you like. Almost like an alternative to a tattoo or maybe a compliment to a tattoo. I don't know.
Sandra:Right.
T.J.:But talk more about that. This is my first impression of you, Sandra, many years ago.
Sandra:Okay. I had need for a new car, and I got a new car. It was my husband loves to do research on what's the best product for the right price and the blah blah blah blah. And so he did all of that and came up with a Subaru Forester, and so we thought this is the right car for me. And went to get it, and I thought, you know, this is a frumpy looking car.
Sandra:It's perfectly fine, but it's it's it makes me feel older than I am. This was you know, I felt that I was still a young adult, and I may not have been, but I thought
T.J.:That's right. Because, they looked kinda like a station wagon
Sandra:Yes. At that time. Yes. And, of course, now I have something very similar to that, but that's not the point. You know, I am 65 now.
Sandra:I wasn't 65 then. So so anyway, but I just thought I I it's too frumpy. I can't do it. I've got to do something to decorate it. And, so much to my husband's chagrin, I started thinking about ways to do something to this car.
Sandra:Mhmm. And it ended up being that I took it to a a person who was an artist and a card person, and he painted it to look like a big pair of blue jeans with pockets and seams and the denim texture and the whole 9 yards. And so I basically drove around in a big pair of blue jeans, which was fun for me. As I said, it was not my husband's idea of great until he got used to it. Once he got used to it, he decided he loved it too.
Sandra:He totally drove, probably drove the Jeanester at that point. But before that, it was kind of a, oh, Sandra. Oh, Sandra, Sandra. You know? But he he didn't stop me from doing it.
Sandra:He didn't vote heavily against it or anything like that because he knew it was part of my expressing myself. I just didn't feel that that particular vehicle said anything about who I was, but more about who I was not. I'm not I was not a settled ordinary standard mom with 2.3 kids and a dog, and I, didn't wanna represent myself that way. So I found a new way to represent it and that was by having it painted and I drove around, like I said, in a big pair of blue jeans for several years.
T.J.:So let me interrupt you. Let me interrupt you Yes. If there's additional cars. Yes. So what did the jeanster express about you?
Sandra:The jeanster really helped me express who I am, not only by who I wasn't being covered up, but by saying this is this is someone who is down to earth, because I think of, blue jeans as being work pants from the farm and down to earth. Of course, at that time, there were also fashion items, and that was not who I was. So I didn't have little, you know, swirly doos all over it. And it was not embroidered and didn't have diamond studs on it or anything like that. But, just a plain old jeans, you know, and just just, part of that is is my playfulness and part of it is my, no, I'm not like everybody else.
Sandra:I'm going to be who I am. And if you don't like it, that's all right. You know, I'm sorry. It's inconvenient for you because I'm delightful, but, you know, get over it. And, it but it it let some people know that I wasn't scared to try something new.
Sandra:And it also, I think, encouraged some people to be able to be more expressive of themselves. Mhmm. Because seeing somebody, you know, that you know and and enjoy, or at least know, making that big an artistic statement, in such a very public and weird way, just an odd strange way, gives you a little more permission to be who you are too. And then you've still got a little more room. You say, well, at least I didn't paint my car like Sandra did with blue jeans all over it or something.
Sandra:You know? So That's
T.J.:right. That's right. Well, is, is the Jeanester still out there?
Sandra:The Jeanester at the at the end of my use for it, after a good 200,000 miles, came to the Branthaven Church, believe it or not, and, was used to it was sold to let's see. Who was it sold to? Oh, a native American group who needed it for transportation like a church bus. So they used it for it might be the Lakota Indians. I'm not sure.
Sandra:Used it for picking up folks to to bring them to church things. So that was their church bus, and it also funded the mission trip for the Grand Haven break because they had just had some major expenses building a church and so on. So I was able to donate it, and it it accomplished a lot of stuff. So it had a good, long, happy life with me and then still did some good. So, like, you're donating your organs a little bit.
Sandra:We donated this organ to the couple of different ways.
T.J.:Now, two questions. Was that the first vehicle that you personalized? And the second half of that question is, has there been additional are there additional vehicles out there?
Sandra:Yeah. That was step 1 on my journey. Then after 200,000 miles and the move to to get rid of the Jeanester came something else. And at this point, I was nearing the end of my seminary career. I went to seminary later in life.
Sandra:And, so at this point, let's see. This must have well, it doesn't really matter at this point, but, I was I was ready for a new vehicle, and I got one and I really liked it. But I'd you know, once you've driven around in BlueJeans, you can't just drive a plane car anymore. You know, you're you're over the edge already. So, at that point, I had to figure out what I wanted to do.
Sandra:And, fortunately, vinyl wraps had become a thing. So it wasn't just a matter of you have to strip this down and paint it all over again. And I could get a vinyl wrap put on it, which would not only decorate my car, but would protect the paint that was there so that when I was ready to exchange that car for another, the vinyl wrap could be removed, and it was it would have protected paint and all that kind of thing. So it would really be a a help to the vehicle, I thought. So, you know, that's a good excuse.
Sandra:Right? So, anyway, so I started thinking about what did I wanna do. Well, I was in my last semester of seminary, and I had, just gone through my j term study of the gospel of John. And in that class, many of us were very tired of writing papers, and so we said, could we please do a project instead? So I we had to what we had to do was to find a cluster of verses that really spoke to us and then use those as an inspiration for whatever project we were gonna do.
Sandra:Well, I found John 21 verses 15 through 17. If you love me, feed my sheep. If you love me, tend to my lambs. If you love me okay. So, I took that to heart and decided that that was gonna be kind of my theme verses.
Sandra:And I decided I was gonna have to do something related to that for my project. Well, I did lots of things for my project, and I can tell you about that another time if you'd like. But what that has to do with the car is that not as a part of that project, but as an offshoot from it, I decided that my car needed to have sheep all over it. I was coming into the point where I was going to be living into my name, professionally, with my last name Shepherd and realizing that I would soon possibly be a shepherd of a flock, that I wanted to really embrace that idea idea. And, so I worked with a person online and developed a design for it with grass all over the place and then sheep grazing in the grass.
Sandra:And the sheep are not just ordinary sheep. They all have little, one of them had a wool plaid instead of just plain white wool. Another one was in denim as homage to my jeans store from before, and another one had polka dots all over it. So my point, of course, was that all these sheep were different just as all the people are different. And if we love Jesus and we want to show Jesus our love, we need to treat each other no matter who we are with that kind of love.
Sandra:So all the different sheep represent all the different people that we encounter and reminder that they're all people or sheep that Jesus loves, and we are to tend them all.
T.J.:If I didn't know you, I wouldn't believe that you actually had cheap on your vehicle.
Sandra:Alright, TJ. Your everyday driver. You need to understand that was that was the wooly wagon 1 point o. Okay? That was the original wooly wagon.
T.J.:Okay.
Sandra:Then it got an update after 5,000 miles, I decided it not 5,000, 500, 5, 5000 miles after 5, what am I saying? I don't know. After a whole after half life of that car, after half as long as I thought I should keep that car, I had a new wrap put on. So I had that wrap taken off and a new upgraded design put on it. So that was blue wagon 2.0.
Sandra:And then when I finally got rid of that car and got another one very similar, I had another wrap design. So each time it's been an upgrade, it's been a little bit more interesting, a little bit, different kind of designs on the sheep, and different layout, and that sort of thing. But each time it has improved just as that's just my confidence in being able to drive around with a whole bunch of sheep on my car has improved. So it's been a lot of fun, and it really has been an invitation to conversation in a lot of situations. I'll drive up at the gas station, and somebody will come over and go, tell me about your car.
Sandra:It's sort of like, I think I wanna know, but I'm not really sure. And so let's start the conversation. And, well, my name is Shepherd, and I'm a pastor. And, you know, so I go a little ways. I wait to see when the light bulb's gonna come on, you know?
Sandra:Mhmm. And, sometimes I have to get pretty deep into the story and sometimes I have to hand them a card with the verses written on it and say, go home and read this and see if you can figure out what this is about. And so it's been a lot of fun. It's been a lot of fun for conversation starter.
T.J.:So yeah. Okay. Your vehicle, in a way, ends up being opening up the door for opportunities for faith conversations.
Sandra:Absolutely. It's my little sermon on wheels, and it has provided all sorts of opportunities, for conversation. Some of the fun comments I got early on were people trying to figure out about it and, you know, do you sell mattresses? Right. Do you have a petting zoo?
Sandra:Do you teach kindergarten? Well, I used to, but that's not what this is about. Do you are you a weaver? That's what I loved. Are you a weaver?
Sandra:So do I, you know, share my sheep and and spin the wool and weave and all that? And, 1 oh, because it says feed them on my on my card too. Somebody asked me if I was a caterer, and I said, we are not eating these sheep. We are not eating these sheep. So we had to have that conversation, but that was a lot of fun too.
T.J.:Alright. There is there is no hiding in the vehicles that you drive then.
Sandra:None. None. Whatsoever. People have said, I saw you at oh, well, I didn't see you, but I knew you were there. You know?
Sandra:Yeah. I can't hide. Can't hide.
T.J.:So there was a point in your life where you had finished school, you received a teaching degree, and you went out into the big world, and you started teaching kindergarten.
Sandra:Right.
T.J.:Where was that, and how long did you do it?
Sandra:Well, let me back you up a step or 2. Alright. I met in college at Mississippi State, and, he started dental school before I was finished with college. And he went to University of, Alabama Dental School in Birmingham. And so he was there while I finished up with my student teaching and so on.
Sandra:And then we married and lived in Birmingham while he finished dental school. Then we, and during that time, I worked as a a storyteller at the library system, the library system. That was great. I really enjoyed that. And then I realized that teaching art or having art education as my only degree was going to be difficult to find jobs, so I added early childhood education and elementary education to those, so I would have a broader choice of of teaching.
Sandra:And so when we moved to Stevenson, Alabama to start Scott's Dental practice, little town, about 25100 people, it was a lovely place and just very friendly and warm and pretty, pretty scenery and so on. Started teaching kindergarten, well actually I taught 1st grade there for a couple of years and then was able to teach kindergarten. And, I loved doing that. It was so wonderful. I really felt called to teaching.
Sandra:Very much so. That was my ministry, and I loved doing it. And then about after 10 years or so, all of a sudden, I felt called out of teaching To something else, but out of teaching. And it really kinda rocked my world. Because I thought, you know, if God called me to teach, then how come I'm being called back out of it?
Sandra:Was that that bad? I knew I wasn't. I knew I had been a really good teacher, so so what's the deal here? I struggled and struggled and struggled with that, but I did leave the classroom because I've seen too many colleagues that hung in there just for the pension. You know, they need to leave a couple years before they did, and that sort of thing.
Sandra:And and that's not helpful to anyone. So, I didn't stay, but I didn't really know what to do next. And I spent some time kind of flailing around trying to figure it out. I during that time, I got a little more involved in denominational, work. I had been doing stuff with the presbytery and on the CE committee and so on.
Sandra:They've done camp things with everybody, but, so I got a little bit more involved in the denominational level of the same idea, and that was good. And, I finally I finally heard God saying to me, look, Sandra, I said you're a teacher. I didn't say you were to go and spend your life in a school. And when I finally realized that teaching can happen everywhere because that's how I'm built, then the pressure was off. And I didn't feel like a total like I had totally failed God at that point.
Sandra:But that I just needed to understand that there's a whole lot more places for teaching to occur. And I've I've used that knowledge to, like I say, dig deeper into the Christian ed things going on in the denomination and was on the CE board until it became the denominational, I mean, discipleship ministry, team and so on. And, so that was that was really great. And I had some opportunities there with writing curriculum and developing programs and being a consultant and this and that and the other. So that was a great time of growth for me, and I felt like I was doing exactly the ministry I was called to do.
Sandra:Then one day, okay, I walked into the office of my pastor, the Reverend TJ Belinovsky, and he said to me, Sandra, I need to tell you I think you've been called to ministry. And I replied, yes, I know. I'm doing it. And he slash you said, no. I'm in ordained ministry.
Sandra:And I proceeded to argue saying, you're wrong, you heard it wrong or whatever. And pretty much dismissed that, but you encouraged me not to dismiss it.
T.J.:Well, alright. Let's pause here for a moment.
Sandra:Yes.
T.J.:Because I I remember it similarly, but also a little differently as well. Yeah. We were at, Stevenson. I wanna say it was in the fellowship hall area Yep. In the kitchen area.
T.J.:And yeah. I mean, the involvement in the in the local church there and at the Presbyterian at the denominational level, you have these gifts for ministry, and they needed to be shared as widely as possible. And as a minister of a local church, to ignore these and not to foster them in another human being was a detriment to the kingdom and to the local congregation and the church at large. But I remember the first time that I shared that with you. I gave thought to it too.
T.J.:It wasn't off the cuff.
Sandra:Right.
T.J.:That, you were not well pleased by hearing that.
Sandra:No. I wasn't.
T.J.:At all.
Sandra:No.
T.J.:I don't know if anger describes how you felt, but anger is how you responded. It was something that you did not want to hear.
Sandra:And Well, yes.
T.J.:I was just sharing it. So I wasn't it was aimed at me, but not really at me.
Sandra:Yeah. Well, when I when I heard you say that to me, I thought, well, that's dismissive because you're saying I'm not doing ministry, and I am. I'm doing ministry. And of course, you were trying to say, but there's broader ministry you can be involved in. Well, it took me a while to to to figure that one out.
Sandra:So I but I I didn't dismiss it. I tried to dismiss it, but I didn't. Because I just thought it was inaccurate. I wasn't trying to fight god's call on my life. I was trying to answer god's call on my life, and I thought I was doing that.
T.J.:And, you know, we really haven't we really haven't talked much about this since since then. I mean, we've bumped into each other. We hadn't really talked about it. Mhmm. When I walked away from that conversation, I walked away thinking you had already heard this or thought about it.
T.J.:I was not the first person. This was not the first time that it crossed your mind, one or both. And your response to it kind of justified that I know, but I don't wanna hear that right now. That was my takeaway
Sandra:Yeah. From it. Yeah.
T.J.:So your response wasn't personal. It wasn't an attack. You weren't necessarily angry at me. It was something that you already knew you had already but you just weren't there yet. And and really, I don't remember us talk talking much more about it.
T.J.:I think I think it may have come up one other time, very again, in private, just, you know, not in front of everybody, no level of embarrassment, but just
Sandra:But
T.J.:just to keep this on the burner. Let it Yeah. Let it simmer, think about it.
Sandra:Yeah. And That's what happened. I I was I was frustrated when you said that to me because I felt like I was doing ministry, and you weren't recognizing that. And I didn't think that was very good of you. I thought I thought you should be a little more astute.
Sandra:You should have picked up on the fact that I was already doing ministry. Thank you very much.
T.J.:Oh, this goes back to the rhetorical criticism in terms of I didn't hear myself in saying it that way. Mhmm. Nor did I hear you respond back in such a way of where I could have gathered that information. So
Sandra:That's right. That's a perfect example of communication that didn't happen. It did. But the the thought in your head did not quite make it to the thought in my head in the same way, and then also backwards, it did not. So, but that was, you know, a little bit of learning curve there for both of us to, and I think that you I really appreciate that you saw that in me and that you that you made those statements because that was the first time anybody had voiced to me anything about ordain to ministry.
Sandra:Mhmm. And I so that was that was a new idea, but it hadn't occurred that had not occurred to me. And I didn't think it was appropriate because I didn't I hadn't heard it from god. I heard it from you, you know, and and not not remembering, silly, silly me, that god speaks to us through people sometimes, you know. But anyway, but, yeah, I didn't I I didn't hear from you an affirmation of a broader application of the ministry that I was doing.
Sandra:Doing. I heard, get off your butt and do some ministry. You know? And, and then so my response was, I'm doing it. Are you too blind to see?
Sandra:And but then the thing that happened was that seed had been planted now. That idea of ordained ministry had been planted, and, it did not wanna think about it because I didn't think it was right. I didn't think it was valid. But, because I knew I didn't wanna be the preacher at the church. That was not gonna be happening.
Sandra:I just knew that. Of course, you know, God helps us understand sometimes that that's not all there is to that. And even that might be the idea, but you don't know it yet. You know? So so we can't really evaluate it from that.
Sandra:But I I did not feel that that was valid at that time. And so, I I just tried to push it away, and it stayed anyway.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road. We'll pick up second half of my conversation with Sandra in the next episode. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, your favorite podcasting site, so that you don't miss it. In closing, I want to share a story of Sandra that shaped my perception of the world when I was a younger man. When our son was born, Sandra, like many others from the congregation, came to visit at the hospital to see this newborn who over the previous weeks caused great discomfort for his mother. I watched Sandra scoop up our son from his bedding with apprehension of a first time parent. Fearful of this infant's fragility and being handled and breathed upon by so many people. As Sandra held our son for the first time, I heard her whisper to him words that I've pondered over the years. She said, welcome to the world, little one. Welcome to the world. From those soft whispered words, I came to the realization that we can choose to view this beautiful mysterious world with anger and suspicion and apprehension, with fear of the unknown, Or we can welcome it with love and joy and humor, knowing it will be shared with family and with people we call friends.
