Stan Wood - New Revelations, Faithful Interpretations, & Building Relationships
You are listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. The following is a faith conversation with reverend doctor Stan Wood, retired vice president of academic affairs, academic dean, and director of the doctor of ministry at Memphis Theological Seminary. Doctor Wood also served as the general secretary, the stated clerk of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America for 18 years, and he continues to serve as the minister of Mount Tabor Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America in Jackson, Tennessee since 2,011. Doctor Wood is my friend. We talk and sometimes we travel together and I seek his counsel and wisdom. He has been instrumental in my personal life and in my ministry in both the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America by providing encouragement and insight. Because of this, I have never been able to call him Stan. For me and out of respect, he is doctor Wood. In our conversation, we talk about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. For clarity, there are 2 denominations who bear this name. We share a confession of faith, a constitution, ministries in history, yet remain distinct. My hope is that these commonalities and conversations like these continue to build bridges where the 2 become 1. So when we speak of the church, our discussion sometimes blends the 2 denominations together. And now, here is the faith journey of Reverend Doctor Stan Wood, or as he mentions in our conversation, the luckiest man on the face of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
T. J.:Alright. Doctor Wood, thank you for being on the podcast. I thought, well, you shared with me off mic. Let's begin our conversation with your grandson, Lance.
Stan:Thank you, TJ. I'm honored that you've invited me to have this conversation with you and I've been looking forward to it as well. So thank you. Thank you for your friendship. Yes.
Stan:My wife, Patricia, and I have one grandson. Lance, turned 12 this past, May. So he's still a youngster, still in grammar school. He is, at this point in our lives, one of the very special people on earth, and we love him to the maximum. Lance and I are in conversation with each other by telephone at least once every 2 weeks.
Stan:We're able to, look at each other and talk with each other. He catches me up on his life and, that's always intriguing to me. He loves to play the drums. He's beginning to learn how to swim. Most recently, a few weeks ago, he told me that he, had spent that day learning how to go under the water and hold his breath.
Stan:And he tells me how afraid he was, but that the instructor was very, very helpful to him. Lance and, my son Kevin and his wife Lisa, come down from Antioch, Tennessee to Memphis to visit us, 2 or 3 times a year. And since we are entering, holiday season as we talk, I'm aware that I will be seeing Lance face to face, in the next few days, and I'm looking forward to that. One experience I shall never forget is when Kevin and I took Lance to see the Memphis Grizzlies for the first time. Lance, is a Grizzlies fan.
Stan:He has watched the Grizzlies on TV in the Nashville area, for many years now, and so has become a Grizzly fan. Jaw is his favorite player as you might expect. We took him to see the Grizzlies play, this particular night when they were visiting with us. We, parked the car in the garage, walked down, Bill Street, took a right hand turn onto the plaza of the FedEx Forum, and Lance's eyes grew larger and larger and larger. And the words I remember him asking are, is this the FedEx forum?
Stan:So we paused for a moment and let him, kinda take it in, and, took a couple of pictures while we were there with him so he could remember this moment. And then we went in and, saw the game. The Grizzlies lost that night. I remember Jah was injured early in the game and could not play much of the game, and that was a disappointment. But, it wasn't that they lost that was the main factor that day, it was that Lance had his first opportunity to be amazed at the sight of the FedEx Forum.
Stan:And, that's a moment I shall never forget.
T. J.:And you were there to share it with him?
Stan:Yes. I stood beside him while Kevin, took our photo. So I will always be able to tell Lance I was there that day, that moment when we together were amazed at, this wonderful building that we had seen on TV all this time and for you to see it for the first time.
T. J.:Doctor Wood, how is that a god moment, a faith moment, a faith experience for you?
Stan:Well, I always feel that, there are times when we get insight. We we, are amazed at the wonder of the world, amazed at what god has created and what humans have created under the inspiration of god. So to see, my grandson look with wonder in his eyes made me realize that in many places, new revelations may come to us. And while this may be secular in the eyes of some, it was a new revelation for Lance. It was the breaking of a barrier of of not knowing that took place that moment.
Stan:And it will make it easier, I think, for Lance as he grows older, as god discloses god's self to him in other ways or in ways that he can perceive that, maybe he won't be as shocked, but hopefully, he will, recognize that, god works, through a variety of means to get our attention.
T. J.:As you know, the 2 children that I have, their ages are spread out a bit. And with the second child, there's something about especially the older I get, to be able to look through the world, through another pair of eyes and how revealing that is, whether it's a novelty or something deep or most likely it's been something that I've taken for granted. You know, the the geese flying over the house and if you're quiet enough, you can hear the flapping of their wings breaking the air. Mhmm. And I you know, things like that that I've heard it enough, seen it enough, that I don't pay that much attention.
T. J.:But to have someone else draw it to my attention once again, for me, it's really really humbling. And there's there's something to be said, something very religious, I think, to step out of our own shoes, our own perspective into another's.
Stan:And children are able to help us adults do that, in a wonderful way, I think. Yeah. In this case with Lance, it's clear to me that, I was as excited as he was
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:And could see that building in a different light because as you say, I passed by it many times. I've walked into the building many times, but was never amazed at it. But Lance helped me to to do that. And I would think in in the larger, aspect of life, children are able to bring truth to us in ways that we, could never imagine. We think we are the dispensers of truth.
Stan:Often it's the children who help us to, learn of God in ways that we never had.
T. J.:Yeah. To look at the world with awe and wonder and afresh, it it makes for me anyway, it makes, me slow down and breathe. Not a shallow breath, but a deeper breath. And even if it's momentarily, it causes me to step out of the race of accomplishments, chores, responsibilities, expectations, and go, it really is an accomplishment. That is really significant.
T. J.:Seeing the, I don't know why I keep thinking of outdoors, but seeing the trails from airplanes cross over, make x's in the sky or crosses in the sky, most of the time I'm looking forward to beeline to the next thing, but to pause and to look up. And it's usually with the recognition of somebody who's younger than me. Take a look at that.
Stan:Yes. Yeah. I think that God is constantly at work in our world in ways that often we overlook. And to have someone to help us to, as you put it, pause and, see what God is doing in our world is a wonderful gift. Mhmm.
Stan:And so in that way, I guess our children and grandchildren are pastors to us in their own ways
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:Certainly are helping us to discover and rediscover god in ways that we thought we had already crossed or passed. So, anyway, I'm grateful that I have a 12 year old who is my teacher and I I learned from him.
T. J.:Well, let's go back in time to some early moments in your life, doctor Wood. Can you recall an early encounter with god? An early experience?
Stan:I will, describe later, how I was nurtured from the from my birth until this moment by the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and its many, people that I've encountered over the years. But there's a parachurch group that I encountered when I was 12 years old where I was led to make a public profession of faith in Jesus Christ. Even though I had been baptized as an infant in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, I had not publicly affirmed that faith. So at the age of 11 or 12, many of us in that region of East Tennessee where I grew up, were introduced to a group called Sedine Bible Camp, where we learned where we had persons from that group to come to our grammar school, grades 1 through 6. Grades no.
Stan:Grades 1 through 8 grammar school in Charleston, Tennessee. Persons would come to that school and would come to schools in all of most of East Tennessee from, as far as I know, from Alcoa, Knoxville area down to Chattanooga, that whole area, that whole region. They would invite us to memorize bible verses, the reward of which at the end of the 9 month period would be a free week of camp. So at 12 years of age, I was one of those who was awarded a free week of camp.
T. J.:And you wanted to go to camp?
Stan:I wanted to go. Yes. I was ready. Scared to death, of course, because I only knew people whom I knew, and that was the limited group of people in Charleston.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:But I did go. I and met a lot of folk and
T. J.:Do you have a competitive nature about you? Was there that part of you?
Stan:It might have been yeah. I wasn't I wasn't it wasn't clear to me that I was at that point. I think it's clearer to me now that I am, but at that time, I'm not sure I had that much insight. Mhmm. But when I went to Sedine, I, made a public profession of faith at Wake, and I came back home and told my parents what had happened and that I was ready to make a public profession of faith at in the local church Mhmm.
Stan:And, did did so. So that that's significant to me. I would say that some of my best friends during my teenage years, had a similar experience at Sedine, though we were not in the same city community, but we're in the same region. And ended up that several of us formed a group in which we decided that we would hold each other accountable, in in in how we lived, in sins we had committed and not confessed. Am I reading my bible regularly?
Stan:Am I praying regularly? What sin did you commit last week that you haven't confessed? Sort of the John Wesley, accountability group idea. But during those teenage years, to me, that was a very significant point in my spiritual development that I had someone who would hold me accountable to what I profess to say I believe, and who I say who I said I was, who I say that I am. So that that was helpful.
Stan:So that I won't say much more about that, outside the the the, denominational setting, but that did occur, and it was a major significant part of my spiritual development that, I still appreciate. I will say that over the years, as you might expect, I have questioned a lot of that upbringing, a lot of the decisions I made in those years, and that my faith has matured, I think, significantly. But that early grounding Mhmm. To me was significant. And a part of who I am today is because of that.
Stan:From years 12 to about 18, having that experience, especially with my accountability partners, was very important to me in my life.
T. J.:Do you have that now? Do you have a set of friends, colleagues that you share in that accountability?
Stan:Not like them. There are 2 people, whose names I won't call. I don't I don't mind calling their names, but both live in Huntsville, Alabama. And if they hear this, they will know who they are. That's that's all that's important.
Stan:With whom I have a similar experience of being accountable. Mhmm. It's not that the 3 of us are in conversation about that, but 2 of us may be. And at another time, the other person and I may may do that. In which we, ask each other about how we're doing in our faith journey, how we're doing, in our work as pastors, how we're doing in terms of the family, and how we're doing in terms of health, you know, all all of the important issues of life.
Stan:And we'll, on occasions, say, well, I heard through the grapevine that a certain thing has occurred, and I just know you well enough that I can directly ask you about that. You know, we are, here to help each other grow on in this journey. And so I will directly ask you the question. And, because we are persons who love each other, who care for each other, who are not judgmental of each other, And who, if if he or does not admit to what I heard, well, that will not hurt our relationship whatsoever. As a matter of fact, he can correct, you know, the the mistake that, I'm trying to bring to his attention.
Stan:So, yes, there is a kind of accountability partnership I have with a couple of people even to this day.
T. J.:Yeah. And accountability isn't just what I've done wrong, what I've said or left unsaid, done or left undone. It it truly is sharing. It's hard to come by, You know, it's it's friends, but on another level.
Stan:Well, John, John Wesley, you know, his focus was on the sins. Uh-huh. Grow into Christian maturity. And I think when I started out when we started out in my teenage years, that really was our focus. But as you say, you know, you as you grow in in spirituality and greater theological depth, you know, you put aside things that no longer work for you.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:And, you know, you are reintroduced to similar concepts, but you deal with them in a different way. So it is more friendship now than it is accountability.
T. J.:There's something to be said to have a friend, have an individual, individuals, plural, where you can just be Stan, where you can just be TJ. But with that can come accountability, when you have that friend call you out. Yes. Hey, this is not like you. But just to be able to communicate, talk, chat, about a recent doctor's appointment or accomplishments of a grandchild or a child, a book you read.
T. J.:I mean, it is so nice to be able to have that where you can just be the person that you are and they overlook your quirks?
Stan:Well, this is again, it's friendship. When I spoke with Willie last Sunday, he told me that, his wife, and I called his name, didn't I? His wife has been having serious issues in walking, and they were going to see her doctor that Monday, the next day Mhmm. With the hope that, there could be some solution found. So I said, well, Willie, why don't we, we pray about that, right now, and then I'll call you back tomorrow, and, we'll talk further.
Stan:So we had prayer over the phone. He and his wife went to see the doctor. The doctor gave her what he believes is a possible remedy to the problem she's having is gonna require 2 outpatient surgeries, lumbar, issues in her back. And, he thinks if when she goes through those 2 surgeries, and they won't be invasive either, with the new types of surgeries that are possible now. That she'll be as good as new.
Stan:So I called him back Monday and, you know, he couldn't stop laughing or talking about the good news that the doctor had given had given her. She's scheduled for surgery, what is today? She's scheduled for surgery, I think it's Friday of this week, the first, surgery, and then there will be a second one scheduled later. So I can hardly wait to, catch up with them on, so, a friendship that goes back to 1988 to this moment is is more how are we doing than it is what have you done wrong. Mhmm.
Stan:And it's that kind of, friendship that we have today. Yes.
T. J.:So doctor Wood, we haven't ever talked about this before, but when you were growing up, when you were a kid, what did you imagine what did you wanna be?
Stan:Well, I don't remember going back that far. It's been a while, you know. I do remember older adults saying to me when I was as young as 8 or 9, in their words, boy, you're gonna be a preacher. I had, you know, I had no idea about ministry, obviously, at that point. Mhmm.
Stan:So after the age of 12, when I made a public profession of faith, I began to think more and more about what how how I could live out my faith. That was a key thing. How can I be a faithful Christian in the world? One of the options would be ministry, but there were other options. Believe it or not, at one point, I thought that I could be a fireman.
T. J.:Alright. Alright.
Stan:I was about 14 at the time. I'm not a bulky guy now. I'm fat now, but I'm not a bulky guy, not muscular, and wasn't at that time, obviously. So how can I, as lean as I was in those days, ever have been a fireman? Like, that did enter my mind.
Stan:And obviously, you think about being a doctor, you think about being a lawyer, you think about being a policeman, you know, the the the typical things.
T. J.:All service, by the way. All service for others.
Stan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would I would hope that whatever vocation we take, that ultimately we're doing it to serve others. We're serving God by serving others in whatever vocation.
Stan:Even lawyers can do that. Right?
T. J.:Very true. Well, let's talk about the, calling to ministry.
Stan:I was influenced by reverend LB Tinsley and his wife Annie Tinsley, who were not my pastor and wife team, but served a Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Cleveland, Tennessee, 12 miles from where I lived. He was sort of a mentor for me in a lot of ways. And he and others thought that, you know, by the time I was 16, I was ministerial material. So he started talking with me about going to Bethel College at the time. And, by the time I graduated from high school, I decided that I would go to Bethel even though I had not affirmed that I had a call to ministry.
Stan:But I would go there as a way of kinda testing the waters to see if, something at Bethel could help me clarify whether or not I felt an internal call to ministry. So I did. And I was at Bethel in my 2nd year, still having not declared that I was a candidate for the ministry, when my adviser told me that, you know, you are on scholarship here as a ministerial student, and, the the college needs to have some clarity as to whether or not you're going to enter the ministry or not so we will know whether to continue to administer these funds. So the next 6 months, I, talked to some folk, including reverend Tinsley, and decided I would acknowledge a call to ministry and did that. And,
T. J.:Was it clear at that time? I mean, because that, you know, owing money to an institution can be a real eye opener.
Stan:Thought about having to pay money back. Okay. That had never entered my mind, actually. But what what jolted me was that people were had expectations of me, which I was failing to to meet. Mhmm.
Stan:And I needed to clarify, not only for them or put it this way, I should clarify for myself, but also for them what my intentions were. And so I did, spend time talking some with my accountability partners that I've discussed with you earlier Mhmm. To, decide, you know, really what what was going on in my life. And whether those people who knew me when I was a a a boy, had seen something, that, god had placed in me early in my life, even before I had made a profession of faith, even though I had been baptized as an infant, as a as a as a part of the covenant. So, it was not difficult, but I did take the time to think it through and kinda pray it through and talk with people whom I trusted
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:And did make a decision before the end of that school year. Mhmm. Fortunately, when my adviser was raising that question with me at Bethel, when my adviser was raising that question with me at Bethel, this was an instrument of god helping me to clarify begin to help me to see the need to clarify if there is or was a call, on my life.
T. J.:We we have to be sensitive to the fact that, you know, young people in school and in college, just those early years of adulthood, you're still trying to figure out who you are Yes. Your place in the world, your contribution to the world and to the community that you live in or may live in. Right. Gosh, even physically you're still growing. There's still a lot going on in your late teens and early twenties.
T. J.:It's a big ask.
Stan:And even during my college years, even at the time I graduated from from Bethel, I was clear that I felt a call to ministry, but I wasn't sure what kind because I knew that in my denomination, Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America, there were not any full time pastors in my denomination. I was hesitating a moment. I was thinking there might have been 1, but I don't think there were any at the time. So I knew that what I had seen, was was not a good prospect in terms of livelihood, and so I wasn't sure what to do. You know, I had an interest in missions.
Stan:I had an interest in what was called then foreign missions. While at Bethel College, Nancy Mauser Bean well, Nancy Mauser Michael Bean. She was Nancy Mauser at the time. Nancy, if you're hearing this, excuse me. And I were sent by students at Bethel to serve 10 weeks in Columbia, South America as what we called summer missionaries.
Stan:And a part of that for me was I was trying and hoping to test out if god was calling me to serve outside the United States. Mhmm. Some of my accountability partners early in my teenage years, 2 of them were missionaries in, New Guinea, of all places. K. And so we all had that little fire in us.
Stan:Do we want is god calling us to serve outside the United States? So I went to South America, and had a wonderful opportunity to encounter people like John Loveless, and Joyce, and, Bill Wood and Catherine, the boys the Wallises, Boyce and, was it Boyce and his wife? I've forgotten missus, Wallace's name. And
T. J.:Beth.
Stan:Beth. Yes, Beth.
T. J.:If you didn't ask me, I coulda rattled it off, but it took me a minute. Boyce and Beth Wallace.
Stan:Boyce and Beth Wallace. Had a wonderful experience there and came to love and appreciate John and Joyce, and, Bill and Catherine, Beth, and Boies appreciated those weeks to the maximum. So I I was interested in inquiring of god. Is this what you're calling me to do? And, decided then, when I graduated from college, of course, to go into seminary directly.
Stan:And so when I graduated from college, I didn't know what ministry for me professionally was going to look like. Came into seminary, and for those 3 years, I began to serve, part time, some small congregations in East Tennessee, would drive from Memphis to Athens, Tennessee. You know that drive, don't you?
T. J.:I do.
Stan:Every weekend, back and forth for 3 years. And, of course, a part of the reason I didn't, hate that so much, that was home for me. That area was home for me. I saw my parents and my siblings, but also saw my girlfriend. Pat Patricia lived, near that place.
Stan:And even though she was in college, some of that period, we could, you know, plan to have several moments when we would meet each other on on weekends, so she would come home often that way. So it wasn't wasn't hard for me. But I got a taste of the work of pastoral ministry and felt that I could be comfortable with that.
T. J.:Minus the drive.
Stan:Minus the drive. And reverend Tinsley, pastor in Cleveland, Tennessee, my mentor, was also serving as general secretary for the denomination, at the time, and said to me at that point, during those years in seminary, I think you have some administrative skills, and I can't do this job many more years. So be thinking about the possibility of succeeding, me in this job at some point. Well, of course, I did not. Joel Rice succeeded reverend Tinsley and served for about 5 years, then I succeeded Joel Rice.
Stan:But,
T. J.:So really just a few years out of seminary, you were the general secretary, you stated clerk type role.
Stan:Yeah. I graduated from seminary in 1970. In 1973, I was employed by the denomination as an executive secretary of the Board of Publication and Christian Education.
T. J.:Okay.
Stan:And we had our our 2 denominations, CPCA and CPC, had a relationship with boards and agencies at that time.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:And the board of Christian Education and the board of publication and Christian education had formed what we called at that time, the Federated Board of Christian Education. And, through a lot of influence and sacrifice and money, engineered by Harold Davis. I was employed in 1973 to become staff to the Federated Board of Christian Education, joining Harold Davis, Jim McGuire, Cornelia Swain. Oh my goodness. The lady that lived in Jefferson City, Tennessee, miss Malcolm, in 1973.
Stan:And then later, of course, Frank Ward and, Poppette Pickle joined the staff.
T. J.:What was what was your responsibility in that role?
Stan:Well, I was to be a catalyst for helping the CPCA think about how to do Christian education to organize itself so that it could do that Christian education, and to inspire young people to think about, how they might live out their Christian faith, in in congregational settings.
T. J.:Okay.
Stan:That was for the CPCA. As a part of the federated board, we had joint responsibility for the administration of Christian education in both denominations. Basically, doing what I've just described in the CPCA.
T. J.:How long did you do that? How long were you in that role?
Stan:Well, from 1970 64 I don't remember. Maybe 6 years. And the, the, position of executive secretary, general secretary opened up. And my denomination asked me to, assume responsibility for both of those. So the title became general secretary slash stated clerk, in which, I served as the central executive officer for the denomination, but also maintain a focus on Christian education Mhmm.
Stan:Missions and evangelism, and stewardship.
T. J.:I am chuckling because both denominations, we have a tendency to ask our representatives to wear many hats. Yep. Yep. Participate in many roles.
Stan:Well, in in my case, I see it as a grace that the church asked me to do that because the church was saying to me, we want to give you opportunities
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:To serve in our denomination. We will we will break down some doors. We will make it so enticing that you will not be able to say no. Mhmm. And to me, a part of this whole experience is that my denomination, and the CPC as well, have been partners in enabling me to serve as a Cumberland Presbyterian minister in a variety of ways.
Stan:Mhmm. As you might expect, you know, you there are offers that come your way from peers, from other denominations. But I don't recall one time when I ever took one of those offers seriously. Mhmm. Because I knew that my denomination had made a heavy commitment and investment in me.
Stan:And, how could I turn my back on a group of people who had invested so much love, so much opportunity.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:So I I'm I'm as a baseball player once said, Lou Gehrig, I find myself to be the luckiest man on the face of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. He didn't say that, did he? Do you know what I mean?
T. J.:Yeah. We were talking off mic before we got started of the the act of service to a church that has given given us so much local level on up. Just those affirmations and encouragement that there's no way, at least in my mind, from from my journey of being able to repay or reciprocate the same amount of response to the many many people and groups of people that have opened their homes, opened their ministries, their lives, for me to be a part of it. And I I feel I believe, even more so than feeling, that the role that I have is just, hopefully an act of gratitude for what has been given to me in the past.
Stan:Last Sunday, we're in in the period of Thanksgiving now. So last Sunday, my sermon, text at Mount Tabor, was on the 116th Psalm verse 12 in the King James. What shall I render unto the lord for all god's benefits Mhmm. To me? And in the NRSV, using your words, how can I repay the lord for all god has done for me?
Stan:Mhmm. And the answer obviously is there is no way one can make a repayment. You know, back in the day when I was growing up, if someone did you a favor, if you didn't have whatever you needed to give them to take care of the favor, you say, well, one day I'll pay you back. Well, as I think about, god's love for me, to me, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, her love for me, to me, I can't pay back. There's no way I can pay it back.
Stan:All I can do is serve as long as I can, as faithfully as I can. And, in that way, it would be my way of saying thank you. And that's kinda where I am in my life at this point. You know, I'm I'm not as young as you. I don't have as many years in front of me as I have behind me.
Stan:So I I don't have that many more years of service to give, but even in retirement, official retirement, I'm happy to be able to serve, in a small way, a congregation as a way of, it's not repaying a debt, but it's a way of of showing gratitude for for all of God's grace and mercy.
T. J.:The church has loved on me. What other way can I respond but sharing the love that I have received from named people to to those that I don't even know, but they've helped me along the way? Right. Absolutely. I don't think I have to be in a career or vocation to give love, well, even to strangers.
T. J.:Yes. Yes.
Stan:I agree. I agree. Maybe this is a opportunity for me to go ahead and say a word about people who have touched my life. I've sort of mentioned that already. Yeah.
Stan:This might take a while because I've got a lot of people to thank.
T. J.:Well, you're making my role as a host even easier.
Stan:Well
T. J.:Just go on. Carry on, sir.
Stan:Yeah. People have made a positive impact on my journey of faith very quickly, my parents and siblings, my grandparents, my wife, Patricia and her family, my home church, Reverend Tinsley and missus Annie Tinsley, Reverend Joel Rice, Reverend Billy Belmont, my I wanna call them coconspirators, but we were students together at Bethel, College and Memphis Seminary. Best best friends in those days. Joel performed our wedding ceremony. Billy was my, best man.
Stan:Think about professors at the college, Hubert Morrow and Elsie Waddle. Elsie, would make you mad in class, but he opened up windows of understanding that I needed at that time. I I really love the man and the memory of L. C. Waddell.
Stan:All my professors at MTS and Vanderbilt Divinity School. I mentioned Harold Davis, Frank Ward, Claudette Hamby, Cornelius Wayne, folk in every congregation I've served, faculty at MTS, all of this is to say that the Cumberland Presbyterian Church has nurtured and is nurturing me over the years. Now that's sort of an outline form. Let me try to put it into perspective. I began attending a Cumberland Presbyterian, church at birth.
Stan:I'm a 4th generation CP. My mother was a 3rd generation CP. My father became CP after marrying my mother. I'm a Cumberland Presbyterian because it's in my blood. John Calvin would probably say it's in my spirit.
Stan:Our reformed theology would likely call it providence. Samuel McAdoo, Finis Ewing, and Samuel King would likely say, I'm a Cumberland Presbyterian because my family chose it for me. So I've always been in the church. I've known nothing but the church. I was baptized as an infant, began attending church school and worship before I can remember.
Stan:As I think back to where or to when I became conscious that I was a part of the church, there are some images that stick out in my mind. My church school teachers, people like people we would call miss Pauline were friendly. The stories I heard were fantastic. Worship was moving. Love was unconditional.
Stan:People loved me. Faith fed me, worship sustained me, and through all of it, somehow god met me. I remember, finally, some of the key people in my nurture as I've mentioned them. BC and Mary Wood, my parents, active in the life of the church, brought up all 7 of their children. Yes.
Stan:I'm the middle of 7 children. Wow. 5 of us are still living, but they brought us all up in the church to love god and the church and to participate in the church's life and miss a witness. We were members of Greens Chapel, Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Charleston, Tennessee, people.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:A congregation that had back in those days maybe 75 members. On the 1st Sunday, every person in the community, every African American family in the community would go to the Baptist church. On the 2nd Sunday, we would go to the method of AME Zion Church. On the 3rd Sunday, whoever would make the announcement first, we would go to that church. And on the 4th Sunday, we'd all go to the CP church.
Stan:So every 4th Sunday, everybody in the community came to Greens Chapel, my home church. Each of my siblings, every member of Greens Chapel had a role in shaping my life. As a child, I remember attending, church school in worship, participated, believe it or not, in the choir and youth group, and listened to, quote, the adults, unquote, when they had their business meetings and endless discussions about the church. I remember fondly, my cousin Jim and I went to a meeting of the church session 1 night, and they asked us to count the money that from the offering the previous day. We were on the floor up near the pulpit, and after we counted counted after we had counted the money, we then, as little kids, started throwing the dollar bills up in the in the air.
Stan:And and one of the, older men said to us, basically stop doing that. We we know you're having fun. But as he put it, that's god's money. Don't play with it like that. Anyway, that was, I still remember that.
Stan:I publicly acknowledged my faith in Christ at the age of 12. I've mentioned that already. As I grew into adolescence and beyond, I learned more about what it means to be a Cumberland Presbyterian. I learned to like the theology. Saint Anselm of Canterbury once said that theology is faith seeking understanding, and that's what my adult life has been about.
Stan:Trying to make sense out of what I said was my faith. For me, being a Cumberland Presbyterian came first by baptism. Later, I learned of more about why I am a Cumberland Presbyterian, and I liked what I learned. I found my spiritual home in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. As I said, Greens Chapel at the time I was there had about 75 members, was named after one of its members, a man everybody in the community, everybody affectionately called uncle Luke Green.
Stan:Uncle Luke was a lay in those days, they called them ruling elder. He and my grandfather, papa Condon Golston, another lay elder, were the oldest and most, seasoned leaders of the church when I was a child. Both of them made an impression on me because of their loyalty to the church, the church family, and to god. So when either of them spoke, I listened. Mhmm.
Stan:Curtis Wood, he and my dad were second cousins, so distant cousin. Curtis Wood and his wife, miss Pauline Wood, contributed significantly to my nurture. They took special interest in me, treated me as one of their children. Miss Pauline was my church school teacher, for a number of, years, and she was also a good friend and adviser. I don't remember many specifics of what she taught me, but I remember her as the best, church school teacher I ever had.
Stan:Why? Because she loved me and wanted only the best for me. When I was graduating from High Point Elementary School, 8th grade, for our final graduated graduation program, we all had to dress up. So miss Pauline drove me to Cleveland and purchased for me a new suit. It cost $4.
Stan:A new suit. This was like, 1950 8, maybe. Something like that. $4.
T. J.:My goodness.
Stan:But, I looked good that day, because, not because of what I was wearing, but because my, miss Pauline, who loved me so much that she would take me, to buy a suit, had purchased it for me. Right. She made a profound mark on my life. And to this day, I still better pause.
T. J.:Doctor Wood, you're talking about miss Pauline?
Stan:Yes. Miss Pauline made a profound mark on my life, and I was saying to this day, I still want to please her, though she's, been dead 25 years or more. There are a lot of people, and I think I've mentioned a lot of these already, Reverend Tinsley and, missus Annie Tinsley when we were here in seminary. Joel Rice and I, were invited by the Tinsleys to, have a dinner at their house on, April 4, 1968. That happened to be the day that, doctor Martin Luther King Junior was shot and killed.
Stan:We were having dinner we're gonna have dinner. We were already at the house and, about ready to sit down to eat. We were gonna leave that meeting and go to the, Mason Temple that night for the meeting and heard as we were seat getting our seats at the table around 6 o'clock that evening, that doctor King had been shot. So the Tinsley's were influential not only in my early development, but, while I was here as a seminary as well.
T. J.:Doctor Wood, can can we pause here for a moment and and, if you're willing to kind of live in that moment, seminary student here in Memphis. And did you get the news over the radio? Yes.
Stan:Missus, Tinsley had her radio on as she was finalizing the the meal, and came in and told us we thought she was about to say come to the table. Mhmm. And she told us that, she had just heard that doctor King had been shot. And, so that was the way we heard I heard the news for the first time that he had been shot. And later, of course, we kept the radio on.
Stan:We learned that, he died.
T. J.:Mhmm. Right. That was, was and still is a tough time in the city Yes. In the nation
Stan:Right.
T. J.:In the world.
Stan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was one of those moments that, you know, you can easily go go back and I can easily go back and remember where I was when I heard the news. Mhmm.
Stan:Yeah. So it was that significant to me.
T. J.:I like asking, the guests that I have on here, where you see God in your life today. And, I like to emphasize the present tense because I we've spent a good amount of time on the past. And a lot of times when we are sharing our faith and talking about our faith, we are referencing past experiences. But as we encounter people in the world, people are looking for solace, grace, forgiveness, comfort, peace, hope, love presently. So I think it's good for us to talk about our faith in the present tense and not always live in the past tense.
T. J.:So doctor Wood, where do you see God working in your life now?
Stan:Well, let me start by saying, my in my faith journey, I've had peaks and valleys. I've had moments of wonderful insight and great doubt.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:And that has not subsided. As a matter of fact, that continues to this very day. There are moments of high intensity, and there are moments of, great doubt and fear about our future as a world, about our city, about our denominations, you know, there's there's all of that.
T. J.:Yeah. And we we've talked a bit a bit about the affirmations from the church.
Stan:Yes.
T. J.:Because it's it's the kind and the right thing to do and that's where we should live. But yes, you, I, members of the community of faith, it isn't always affirmation from our peers, from fellow Christians, from people that we've served. Right. I'm not asking you to tell tales but to ignore hardships is to ignore living.
Stan:Absolutely. And well and in the midst of all of this, I don't wanna sound too Presbyterian at this point, but I do believe in the sovereignty of God. Mhmm. And I, you know, you can push that too far
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:And become too much of a Calvinist, if you will. And just assume that no matter what happens, God is gonna rule and overrule and change things and all of that. But I think we, human beings, play a significant role, and sometimes leave god with little to work with, in terms of we can do so much damage. I think about the environment, the creation, god's wonderful creation. We we've messed up god's world in a very significant way and, we I I do believe that god is, ever changing god's creation.
Stan:And in the final analysis, it all will be conformed once again to the image of god and will be good again. I I believe in conversion. I believe in salvation that there will be a new beginning. But so I while I want to say that, my faith is fairly strong today, I have to tell you, I can be swayed by the challenges we face in society and in the church. But my faith in Christ is, the reason I have hope.
Stan:I have followed a life pattern that attempts to follow what I believe to be god's purpose in my life. Every time I make a major decision, I'm always trying to inquire the mind of god, and, you know, that may sound a little too Presbyterian as well, because, you know, it's it's not that god wants us so much to to, know god's mind as it is for us to be clear in our own minds what we are about and try to follow his leadership and god's leadership and guidance, every day of our lives. But anyway, every time I make a major decision, I try to ascertain god's will and purpose for my life at the moment. That doesn't happen as well as it should, as it ought to, but, it does happen on occasions. But the thing that keeps pulling me back when I veer off, I believe, is that the love of god is so compelling that it's like a magnet.
Stan:It kinda pulls me back and draws me in once again. And for me, that's my only salvation. I can easily veer off and go the wrong way. I do it all the time. I am a person who makes mistakes in abundance.
Stan:But, through the grace of god and the love of god, my life experience has been that god, like a magnet, has love that pulls me and, brings me out of bad situations and gives gives me hope again. Mhmm. So we live in a difficult period in history. I worry about what's going on in Gaza, in Ukraine, in Memphis, in the Cumberland Presbyterian churches. And I have to think that, the answer to the problem is not so much in my hand, in our hands.
Stan:Somehow god is overseeing everything, sees what's going on, and god is good at taking evil and and and making some good come out of it. So that's what's going on in my life now. God's got a tough dude to work with in me. And my only salvation is that, beyond me, beyond us, beyond our churches, beyond the world, God is at work reconciling the world unto god's self, And I have to believe that. Mhmm.
Stan:And in my better days, I want to be a participant with god in that reconciliation work. That's may sound a little arrogant. You know, who are we to work with God to do what God's doing? But part of I think that's a part of our calling anyway.
T. J.:Doctor Wood, how do you how do you not be overcome with discouragement in life? In the world, in the 2 churches, in the community. I mean, it's really easy to to do, regardless of age, gender, background, to be able to look around, to read, to observe, and in our worst cases, to even participate in. How do you not let discouragement just overwhelm you and go, and it's it's not worth it? It being church, world, relationship.
T. J.:I mean, fill fill in the blank.
Stan:I'm not sure I have an answer for that one. And certainly for me, I don't have anything that is dramatic. I am a person of prayer. I do pray a lot. I pray for specific situations, those that we've mentioned.
Stan:Yeah. I pray for each of them regularly, including CPCA. You know, in terms of my denomination for a long time, I felt that my period of service was behind me in terms of the national church. And so every time somebody would say, well, there's this opening. Would you like us to put your name in?
Stan:I would say no. But decided just before general assembly met, this past year in 2023, when someone raised that question with me, I decided that maybe it's time to, get back in in the game Mhmm. And do the little I can do Mhmm. And not stand outside and worry and be a critic and whatever else, but, you know, to keep praying Mhmm. And to do what my hands can do.
Stan:But ultimately, to believe Presbyterian again in the sovereignty of God. That despite evil, god is good. God is love. And, in the final analysis, that's gonna win.
T. J.:Right.
Stan:So that's my hope. That's my belief. And so I may be down, downcast for couple hours, and then my mind goes back to, that basic theology. And then I say, well, let me get out of this place and go somewhere else and lighten up a little bit.
T. J.:And so
Stan:I make it through the day.
T. J.:Well, let me push back a little bit. I know that you've said no. I've heard you say no, in our friendship over the years. But I was thinking before we had this conversation, you shepherded or walked with a couple different judicatories, plus a congregation, Mount Tabor, through the COVID pandemic. You were the moderator of New Hopewell Presbytery and had to navigate, should we meet, how will we meet, when, all those different logistics.
T. J.:And for Tennessee Synod, you were the moderator as well and and, of course, pastoring at Mount Taber Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America. You were in a lot of hats, 2019, 2020, up up to 2023. Right. So you have said no. You've also said yes though in those roles and I've been very grateful, to be able to watch watch you kind of help walk walk those judicatories, walk the congregation through some very, very tough times.
T. J.:Death, sickness, being pulled apart by distance, politics, the list goes on and on and on. Right.
Stan:Well, that's kind of you to say, and I can't say any more about that, except to say that it it might have been by divine intervention that we survived, all of that. We have come out on the other side, I believe, a little stronger than we were when we went into, COVID, that COVID period Mhmm. And and shortly thereafter. As I mentioned at the senate meeting this time, I feel that, my time as a leader in those two capacities are now over. I mean, I I was happy to participate then.
Stan:But as an old person now, I really see my role as, an enabler of you younger guys and ladies, who have much more energy and intelligence and insight and, ability to lead, that I I presently have. You know, with the body getting weaker and maybe the mind too, I, but but during those years, I sort of felt the call to try to serve and do the best I could. Yeah.
T. J.:Let's talk for a moment. You in terms of service, you served and I know we're jumping around chronologically, but you served as a professor and dean at, Memphis Theological Seminary. Did you ever see yourself doing the full swing? You were a previous student and then fast forward a handful of years?
Stan:Not really. It it is a part of the wonders of god's grace and and mercy that, that happened. I, always loved Memphis Theological Seminary. The professors there were, when I was a student, were some of my most admired people, Bill Ingram, Colin Baird, John Gardner, Virgil Todd, you know, people like that, I looked up to in those years. And they were, they were especially kind to me.
Stan:Could be because I was a minority CPCA student, and they wanted they may have wanted to make sure that, they took good care of me and prepared me for whatever, god would open up later for me to do. So I've always loved, Memphis Seminary, served on the board of trustees a couple years after I graduated. And then in 1998 was called, David Hester was the president at the time, and wondered if I would be willing to come and succeed, Clinton Buck as director of the doctor of ministry program. So that was and I said yes. So I I went there, left the post at the, general assembly office in, in Huntsville at the time.
Stan:And so it evolved. Dean and director taught some courses in Christian ministry, associate dean, later, dean and professor, and retired in 2017. Spent nineteen and a half years at, Memphis Seminary. Who would have thought that? I could could have been there that long.
Stan:It's amazing, how time flew. But those were good years. I I I'm very happy that it worked out that I could go there.
T. J.:Okay. Now that you're no longer teaching and without mentioning any names, When you look out across the classroom and you see all these, promising and upcoming people preparing for ministry, for many denominations, for several. What goes through your mind? Are are you Were you excited? Were you Were there moments where you just shook your head and wondered about students like myself?
T. J.:You know, what what goes through your mind when you look out in that classroom?
Stan:Well, I wonder what, professors thought when they looked at us as students Mhmm. When I was there as a student. Mhmm. Bob, Watkins said recently, talking about the graduating class at Bethel, 1960 3 said, when you look back and see what's happened in their lives and ministries, We did pretty good.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:Well, when I think about some of the students, and I'm not thinking about you, I think about wonderful students like Melissa Malinowski. You know, I always ask myself the question, Would I want that student that student to serve as pastor of my family? At the time, many of them came through MTS. I would have said no. But now that I look back on several graduates, Memphis Theological Seminary and some of the students that, were in the classroom that classes that I taught, they're they're outstanding Christian leaders.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:I'm thinking about going from as far, as nondenominational folk to, CPs. Yeah. You know, people like yourself have, emerged as significant leaders. You know, you're changing the landscape of how Cumberland presbyterians think about evangelism and how they engage in the work of evangelism. I don't know if MTS taught you any of this, but in everything that you studied while you were at MTS, my hunch is you were greatly influenced to become the person that you have become.
Stan:So I I don't think so much about who they were at the time, who the students were at the time. But as you as you look back over 20 years of working with students, Kinda proud of, of who students are. When you think about the city of Memphis, almost every significant especially every significant African American pastor, leader graduated from MTS.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:You you name 1, MTS. Name another one, MTS graduate. Same is true, I think, for Cumberland Presbyterians. The significant leaders, those who have emerged to help change the world, change the church. If it has if it weren't, pause, it's MTS.
Stan:You know, pause being a part of MTS.
T. J.:Yeah.
Stan:So I think it's an unfair question to ask. What do you think about those students back then? Because what do you what do you think about those graduates who are serving now? Are you proud or are you not? And, obviously, we're proud.
T. J.:Yeah. I was wondering because the person that I was at Memphis Theological Seminary or Bethel College, high school, so forth and so on, I I'm not the same. Right. Right. Even in those years of preparation, by the time you get to graduate school, you grow, you change.
T. J.:Life, has a way of doing that. Your studies beyond school have a way of doing that. And, I know, our friendship has grown. When I first met you was was at seminary, you were my professor. And, to be able to connect in a different way and have a a friendship, a relationship in a different way, especially early on several years ago, I couldn't help but think, oh, I hope doctor Wood doesn't remember me as the 21 and 23 year old that I was then.
T. J.:Not that I was a bad student or disruptive or anything like that. It was just, I could look back, I can look back and go, okay, I I'm not I'm not in the same place
Stan:Right. Absolutely.
T. J.:In my faith, in my service, in my relationships, you know, I'm a different person. That's why I was asking is Yeah. I sometimes more so probably for the college professors paperwork against me because I didn't always take things as seriously as I probably should have had.
Stan:You you mentioned the word relationships more than often more than once. You mentioned it often in, this conversation. I remember that the, development people at the seminary, when we would have cabinet meetings, would always talk about the need and board meetings, always talk about the need. If you're gonna raise money, you have to focus on relationships. You have to focus on becoming friends with potential donors.
Stan:And that says a lot, I think, about who we are as Christians as well. I think we can take that analogy and put it within how we win people to Christ, how we how we grow our churches. Relationships are not easy to develop. Friendships are not easy to develop. Become becoming knowledgeable of other people is one thing, but developing a relationship and a friendship is a different thing.
Stan:And maybe in the church we have failed to focus enough on developing strong relationships, not just with the people in our congregations, but with people out in the world.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:The the one the if I were to say I'm proud of something Cumberland Presbyterian Church, I would say there are ministries where people have focused on relationships. I think about Lisa Anderson and the Room in the Inn program that she oversees, and a lot of congregations in Memphis now participate in, are providing shelter, overnight shelter for families, especially during this the the cold seasons of the year rather than than they are being on the streets. So they develop relationships with these women and their children, and sometimes fathers or or husbands are there as well. But they develop
T. J.:ships. Mhmm.
Stan:They do more. She's doing more than giving them a place to sleep. Mhmm. She knows them by name. Mhmm.
Stan:She's able to, discuss with them, happenings in their lives. Because last week, this person said something that she was going to experience this week, so Lisa can bring it to their attention, when they're in conversation. So, you know, they're that that's one of the things. Pete Gotke and his wife, Pete has recently retired is retiring from the seminary, but, resigning, rather. His amen house where, they build relationships with people on the streets.
Stan:Right. He calls them by name. I remember one day, I said, Pete, what do you call these people, who come to either place, man a house regularly? Are they your clients? No.
Stan:They're guests. That that stung. That that felt good when when Pete said that. They're our guests Mhmm. And relationships.
Stan:And and, you're keen on relationships, so I wanted to pull your plug for a moment and say, I agree with you 100%.
T. J.:And it takes time. And time can mean months years for true relationship to to develop. I have to be able to know that I can trust doctor Wood. You have to be able to know if you can trust me and sort through the layers of potential baggage or stereotypes, previous encounters, it it's time and effort. Yes.
T. J.:And, but it's worthwhile.
Stan:I agree.
T. J.:Worthwhile. And it's it's responding to the larger relationship that God has with us through Jesus Christ.
Stan:And in a way it shouldn't become overwhelming for us because that's a part of our vocation. That's a part of who we are. Mhmm. That's a part of what we're called to be and do. So if we're in ministry, we're called to be in relationship building.
Stan:Mhmm. That's that's the goal. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a it's not something that happens by an accident.
Stan:That's what we do. That's who we are.
T. J.:But the challenge for those who have it as a vocation is that the relationship doesn't become your vocation.
Stan:Yeah.
T. J.:And that's a that's a dance that's hard, especially out in the community who may not be faith connected, may not attend church. They may see true sincerity as a marketing or recruitment mechanism to attend the church that you're a part of. It's hard. It's hard. But at the same time, we're in a place in in our history I think humans have always been this way, where we are absent of those good, deep, and meaningful relationships we're hungry for.
Stan:Well, of course, Jesus had 12 disciples who grew in relationship to him 3 years and wasn't a 100% successful with Judas, Yeah. The and and even Peter betraying. Yeah. But after 3 years, folk were ready to join Mhmm. Is kinda like, a part of our evangelism responsibility is to build relationships so that eventually people will want to ask, what must I do to be saved?
Stan:What must I do to be a part of the body of Christ? What must I do so I can be in this relationship with god? And like you say, it doesn't happen after 2 or 3 visits. It may take 3 years or 5 years or 10 years. Right.
Stan:Our goal is not to, so much win people as it is to relate to people. And in god's own time Mhmm. God, the holy spirit will tell us when when it's right. Right. And that person will make his or her own decision.
T. J.:I think we are at our best when we are inviters. Because ultimately all we can do is invite someone in a relationship with Jesus Christ. I I can't do that for them. Yeah. I can walk alongside them, but I'm ultimately just an inviter.
T. J.:Then I can speak from firsthand experience and some knowledge that I've gained through school and life, but I at best, we can only invite others to know God more deeply.
Stan:I'm a one of my friends, based on the role I played at the seminary, is Michael Greenstein, Temple Israel here in, in Memphis. Rabbi Greenstein will likely never become Christian. He believes in Jesus. We've talked about it. He he believed Jesus was a fantastic Jew, wonderful prophet, but not the the promised Messiah.
Stan:So, you know, my relationship with Micah is not so much to win him to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but to share the love of god that exudes through me. Mhmm. And where it goes or how he takes it and uses it is not my business anyway. So, sometimes, in building relationships, it's not to the end of a decision to be like you, but rather to, let the love of god come through you.
T. J.:Mhmm. And I don't want people to be like me.
Stan:Well, the world would be better if there were more TJ Malinowski.
T. J.:No. No. I I don't want a bunch of TJ's running around. Well, Doctor. Wood, we've alluded to this next question, but you may want to spend more time with, the church.
T. J.:What do you think the church is doing well and where do you think some there are some areas for improvement? And you can answer that specifically. Church can mean church universal, church can mean Cumberland Presbyterian Sister Churches, or you can just focus on one or the other.
Stan:Yeah. I've thought about that a little bit. I think for me, the the in this era, anyway, the positive development in the church, I think, at least in in America and in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, is a return to the study the reading and the study of the bible. We are a biblical people, and we're in a way, SCPs, we're returning to our roots, trying to dig into and understand scripture. Mhmm.
Stan:To me, that's a positive. That's a wonderful development that we're we're engaged in now. So I I applaud that. My concern has to do with the need for us to be careful in how we read the Bible. I have mentioned to you before that sometimes I worry about, exegetical theories that people use when they read, study, interpret the word.
Stan:You know, that the idea always is that when we read the Bible, we are going to interpret it. Mhmm. Reading is interpreting, and interpreting always has a human element attached to it. And so I have to always be concerned about weeding out the, human impediment that gets in the way of my properly understanding the scriptures that I'm reading. And I think in the church in America, in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America, I applaud a return to the bible.
Stan:I'm glad this day has come. There was a time when we kinda put the bible aside, but we've picked it up again. We're reading it again. I like that. I'm glad we're doing it.
Stan:I want us to, be faithful interpreters. I I used to say to students that every time we, pick up the Bible and read something like John 316, the way we read it, the way I read it, especially if I read it out loud, I'm offering an interpretation to what's in the text. As long as the scriptures remain in that book without human involvement and interference, everything's great. But as soon as I flip to it and begin to read it and interpret it, the potential for human l, error is enhanced. And I think that's a part of, part of what worries me right now about the struggles going on in major denominations, Presbyterian Church USA, Southern Baptist denomination, United Methodist, or whatever they're called now, with the breakup of that denomination in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America.
Stan:Our reading of the bible can cause us to build walls rather than bridges. Mhmm. And what worries me right now is we're building we're letting our interpretations build bridges. And sometimes our interpretations aren't exegetically correct.
T. J.:I would like to add that as we approach the scriptures for study, to ask before we study, what is drawing me to the text. What am I seeking? Am I seeking grace? Am I seeking understanding? Am I seeking affirmation?
T. J.:But begin to ask questions before you even begin reading. What frame of mind am I in Right. Before Right. Am I angry? Am I looking for something to equip me against my enemy?
T. J.:Am I looking for solace? And ask that question, what what is it that what is it that you're bringing to the text, maybe even unconsciously? And that and I think that question can help help.
Stan:I agree with that. Yep. Yep. And those are not bad questions to ask. The issue is let's just be honest.
Stan:If I'm going to the scriptures so that I can find, help in my time of need, I need to be frank. Frankly, I I need to be careful that I am, asking that and then look for it. Mhmm. Mhmm. If if, if I go to the scriptures just to have opportunity to have a text and sermon for Sunday, that's different.
T. J.:Mhmm.
Stan:And so I'll be honest with it. But as you put it, if it's intention intentionally designed to build a wall, I need to be honest about that too.
T. J.:Yeah. I think it to swing it back around on kinda where we began, approaching the scriptures with the odd wonder and gratitude.
Stan:Yes.
T. J.:There's amazing work in there and revelations that if I'm looking in the text with a furrowed brow metaphorically and in reality, I'm gonna find some things in there, the scriptures in both the Old and New Testament that may not be in there when my brow was unfurled.
Stan:Yeah. Yeah. Well, Carl Barth, I think it was, who said, when you study the bible, have a Bible in one hand and a good daily newspaper in the other. You know, that goes way back to when newspapers modern day program that helps you know what the news is that's going on all around you, and let each speak to the other. You know, I've always felt that we need 2 or 3 commentaries nearby when I open the bible Mhmm.
Stan:So that my understanding can be expanded. Mhmm. Yeah.
T. J.:Since we're talking about reading, doctor Wood, what are you reading right now? What do you recommend?
Stan:Well, I'm not reading these right now, but, I do have a because you told me you you might ask that question, I've got a couple of three things that I would recommend. Assuming that some pastors, are gonna hear this podcast and, may be interested in, church administration. There is a book that I highly recommend. It's probably one of the better, 1 or 2 books on church administration that, I'm aware of. The title of it is Church Administration by Robert Bacher, b a c h e r, and Michael Cooper White.
Stan:Michael Cooper White, an excellent resource on you know, when I was at the seminary, people would say the, seminary has not prepared us well for church administration. So this is a book that I strongly urge pastors to read if they've not been reading it. There's another book that deals with spirituality that I recommend. It's called Holy Conversations, strategic planning as a spiritual practice for congregations, written by Gil Rendle, r e n d l e, and Alice Mann, m a n n. Spiritual practice for congregations, having holy conversations very similar to what you and I have been having today, I hope.
Stan:Yeah. A third one I recommend, this one has to do when arguments don't win the mind, love can win the heart. So the title of the book is apologetic of the heart. And this one is written by John Blum, bl00m, apologetic of the heart. Again, the the issue is, with all the stuff going on in the world, don't be overcome by that.
Stan:Here are, wonderful examples of how, love prevails in the midst of, of hatred. Love may win the heart.
T. J.:Doctor Wood, thank you for giving me a couple hours of your time.
Stan:Time has passed, hasn't it?
T. J.:It hasn't felt like it. There just happens to be a clock behind you that I could see. Okay. I really appreciate you, Sharon. I've gotten to know you over the years and, you know, we've we've spent some time traveling as well.
Stan:Yes.
T. J.:And, this has been a real treat because you typically pepper me with questions. And now, finally, I've been able to ask you. And
Stan:Well, I'm grateful. Thank you, TJ for this opportunity. I had difficulty sleeping last night, and if I don't get 2 and a half hours of steady sleep at night, I'm no good the next day. And I found myself tossing and turning about until about 3 o'clock in the morning. Then I discovered when I turned over, it was 6 o'clock.
Stan:So I said to myself, I'm good for TJ now. But things like that happen sometimes. On Saturday night, when I, retire for the evening before go driving up to Jackson on Sunday morning, I toss and turn a lot. And, so, this is was very typical of my anxiety that I experience Taber.
T. J.:Oh my. I'm so sorry. See, I was so excited on the other end. You could even ask my wife. I was looking forward to having this conversation.
T. J.:And what would it Where would it go? What would it sound like? So it was anticipation and not anxiety. And but thank you. Thank you for sharing your time.
Stan:Thank you.
T. J.:Thank you for listening to this episode of The Cumberland Road. Check out the other guest who have also shared their faith journey. Doctor Wood mentioned some of the difficulties the world and the church is facing. When I went back to edit this podcast, it reminded me of a song by Roberta Flack called Trying Times. So to close, I will read, no, you don't want me to sing a verse from her song, trying times. Trying times is what the world is talking about. You've got confusion all over the land. Mother against daughter, Father against son. The whole thing is getting out of hand. But folks wouldn't have to suffer if there was more love for your brother. But these are trying times. A whole lot of things that is wrong is going down, and I don't understand it from my point of view. I remember somebody said, do unto others as you have them do unto you, And then folks wouldn't have to suffer if there was more love.
