Tiffany Hall McClung - "Flying Up"
You were listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. A minister's daughter, clergy couple, and a stellar stage manager living in the Mid South, today's faith journey is with guest Tiffany Hall McClung. Tiffany is a Cumberland Presbyterian minister, and our conversation covers how the arts complements our theology, our worship, and the scriptures. She shares her faith journey of making a profession of faith and being enriched by table conversations with her family as she was growing up. She shares what the life of a clergy couple is like and how beautiful and unique it is. And one can hear a glimpse of her sense of humor blossom over the course of our time together. You are listening to the Cumberland Road. And here is my conversation with Tiffany Hall McClung.
T.J.:You have a passion for the theology and the arts. Tiffany, from your perspective, how does theater, how does the arts enhance our worship experience?
Tiffany:We've always had the arts in worship. In fact, the very earliest forms of worship were basically, plays, reenacting the stories, to pass those stories along. So my degree in theater, you know, in theater history, one of the first things that we talk about is how the earliest people worshiped. And then artwork as we knew it, I really didn't have secular artwork until the Reformation. It was all religious artwork.
Tiffany:And so, I I believe that when the Bible says that we are created in God's image, that one of the things that that means is that we are created to be creative people. And so, I think that God calls us to create and even if we feel like we're not creative, we we're creating every day. You're creating right now. And so we're going to have arts in worship whether we are cognizant of it or not. We have a picture on the bulletin.
Tiffany:We have, music, of course, hymn hymnology has has been a big part of our tradition. But so if we can branch out and use other arts, then we're just going to use more of, the being that that each of us is created to be in the image of God. So if we can use go ahead. You had a question?
T.J.:No. No. I'm listening.
Tiffany:Oh, I thought I thought you had
T.J.:a question. I have lots of questions. But
Tiffany:Well, you go ahead and jump in because I'll just babble on and on and on.
T.J.:So what could the arts and the theater aspect, again, some of your passions, look like in the 21st century in a traditional Sunday morning worship experience? Where can we pull from these great gifts and these great tools that would enhance our glorification of God, our worship of God?
Tiffany:I think the easiest or the most accessible way to start something like that, if you if if you're not used to using the arts in a broader way, is the scripture reading. And taking the scripture reading for the whether it's 1 or 2, but take the gospel lesson or the text that the sermon is gonna be preached on, and find a team of people who are passionate about such a thing and divide it up. You can even do just a reader's theater. It doesn't have to be fancy. It does you don't have to have props or costumes or anything like that.
Tiffany:But if you could just put the voices of the story into different people's mouths, it helps the hearer hear it a different way and it activates our brain in a different way. So, when I'm talking with folks about theology and arts, that's where I always start. I'm like, that's just that. First of all, planning worship, you always start with with scripture. So I'll let me say, I always start with scripture and I believe that to plan a worship service, you have to have the foundation of the scripture.
Tiffany:And so, as that foundation is is sort of the most accessible place. But beyond that, I mean, you can go to liturgical dance. I'm trying to think of things that people might not have heard of, but
T.J.:You see that my mind runs to the liturgical dance first. When I hear the word theater and art and theology for for worship. And I'm thinking, yeah, that's not me. And and maybe there are
Tiffany:others It makes you cringe.
T.J.:Yeah. And maybe there are others that feel that way as in, oh, I don't mind observing that and even supporting it, but I am not going to do a liturgical dance. So how do you approach those who may have that mindset, but also how do you do the delegate dance in terms of taking a worship experience and not turning it into a performance?
Tiffany:Well, I think that having the foundation of scripture is, primary in that because if everything is growing from that foundation, then something's keeping you grounded in what the the message is for that worship service. If I'm, again, if I'm teaching, I'm reminding folks that the audience is not the congregation. The audience is God. And, like to talk about that analogy that I did not make up. Somebody a long time ago made up that, if we think about worship as theater, which is not a bad thing to do.
Tiffany:But when you think about worship as theater, then God is the audience. We are the players. You could think about the worship leader as the director. And so, if if our foundation is scripture and our focus is performing for God, then I think that keeps us, or at least helps us to keep from becoming performative for one another.
T.J.:What would that be? And I
Tiffany:will also add, sometimes that's alright too. When did we decide that performing was a bad thing?
T.J.:To to enjoy the presence of one another and the gifts within the congregation, beyond just like committee meetings and fellowship meetings, but in the actual worship experience. Yes,
Tiffany:please, please. Yes. And I just, you know, the performance aspect. I I get and I have I've said from the pulpit, I've said in classes, I've probably written a blog on it, that we shouldn't see that that church should not worship specifically should not be performance. Remember that book a lot, many years ago, entertaining ourselves to death.
Tiffany:Who wrote that TJ? Help me.
T.J.:Not sure if I'm familiar with it.
Tiffany:Marva Dawn. Marva Dawn wrote Entertaining Ourselves to Death in the probably late eighties, early nineties, in a response to what had seemed to become very performative worship experiences. What I you know, maybe the seeker services that were very popular, in that time. And so you can read you can read her her scholarship on that, which is very good, and I totally agree with it. At the same so we should worship cannot be a performance, but we can also go to the opposite extreme of saying, oh, we can't we can't clap for somebody that sings, and we can't, you know, this is not a performance.
Tiffany:And, like, God gave us these gifts, and if we're happy about it, and we want to express that in some way, I just don't see what's wrong with that. So I'm all about balance. I'm all about finding some balance.
T.J.:To bring the theology into this conversation, the theology and the arts, maybe we don't know what to do with that celebration aspect in terms of the clapping. Who is it for? So is it for the one who who did the liturgical dance or is it the one who created the person and bestowed upon them the gifts to do the liturgical dance?
Tiffany:And my point is, why can't it be both?
T.J.:Interesting. Interesting.
Tiffany:Yes. Yes, it is. It is for the dancer, and it is for God. Because without God, the dancer does not exist.
T.J.:Right. Interesting.
Tiffany:See, when I go when I go to the theater, any theater, any it doesn't matter what the play is about. It can be the dumbest, ridiculous farce of a play. It is a spiritual experience for me. And I know that, I know that that's part of, because it's part of my calling. So I know it's not that for everyone, but there is something spiritual about a group of people coming together to tell a story.
Tiffany:There's a lot to do with telling stories, to tell a story in community, and have the community receive that story. And there's this back and forth between the audience and the performers. I I could tell you a personal story, which I know you love. Okay. So I didn't realize this until I was working on my my last degree.
Tiffany:I'm trying not to sound all weird. I I my doctorate in ministry from Memphis Theological Seminary has a focus on theology and arts. Okay. So while I was working on it, I was sharing some of my call story, writing about how for me to be creative is about being made in the image of God. And, realized that the early the earliest sense of call that I have in my life was at a play, and it was a dumb play.
Tiffany:I can't I can't remember. These are the things that I can remember about it. And anybody that, like, has spent 5 minutes with me has heard the story. So the play was called The Drunkard, some kind of farce. It was performed by high school students outside of, Birmingham, Alabama at a high school, where my youth minister was the director and, theater teacher.
Tiffany:And so my parents, in supporting this church member, we all went to see this high school ridiculous play. And the boy that played the lead was very cute. And so, I guess I was I was probably 10 years old, I think. And now that I say that, this might have been the second spiritual experience I had. But, I think I was 10.
Tiffany:So we laughed. It was very funny. We had a time. And when the lights went down for the end, and the audience started clapping and then the lights came back up. By the time the lights came back up for those high school kids to take their bows, I'm a 10 year old.
Tiffany:I'm clapping, I'm smiling, and I have tears just rolling down my face. I have no idea why. I feel at 10, I real I remember I felt like I was like, oh my gosh. Why am I crying? People are gonna think I'm weird.
Tiffany:What is wrong with me? And I did not know at the time and it took me until I was grown and looking back on my my whole life and my call experience to know that was a moment in my call to theology and arts. That was a moment when God said, this this is very important for you. As stupid as this play was, as, you know, this that's not what matters. You are in this community.
Tiffany:These this the audience and the parent, you know, just the supporting the teenagers on stage. I mean, there's something powerful about it. There's just something powerful about it. And so that was one of my earliest, experiences with the Holy Spirit that I I certainly did not talk about like that at the moment. It took some reflection to kind of go, oh, that's what that was.
T.J.:But It took the reflection into adulthood looking back to be able to pinpoint and articulate
Tiffany:Right.
T.J.:This emotional experience.
Tiffany:Right.
T.J.:Was connected to where I am now in the classroom of a doctorate program.
Tiffany:Yes.
T.J.:I still wanna live here for a moment in the theology and the arts. And from a very, practical point of view, for a local church, local congregation that is multi generational. So it it has got small children up to the young at heart and everything in between, and maybe even some generation gaps. How do you incorporate into the worship experience and really just the life of the community of faith, the the arts and the theater, and what could that look like, especially if you've never done anything beyond, you know, I don't know, a passion play or, a Christmas program or something silly that you did at camp? How do you integrate some of those pieces to where everybody has a part, but can also feel involved and comfortable in displaying those gifts?
Tiffany:Well, I just go back to I'm gonna keep repeating myself, I guess. But the scripture I always go back to the scripture and, you know, if you had a pastor who's willing to sit down and take the Sunday scripture or a worship committee, a worship team, children's minister, whoever, a parent who has a kid that they go, you know, my kid really loves to be in front of people. Okay. Let's get them in front of people then. That's what I say.
Tiffany:That's that's because that's some sort of calling that there's a reason for that. So to take the scripture and tran do your own translation of it so that it is, kid, children, youth friendly, and still says what the Bible, you know, says it says. And then let the kids read read it or memorize it. I mean, it's just always easier because time is impossible to find these days for some reason. So if you can make it simp simple to read and make a script, and then you could just hand that to somebody right before worship starts, or at least I think you can.
Tiffany:I, you know, I know some people will get freaked. You have to know who can who who's willing to do that and who's not. Mhmm. But you can you can hand things to somebody right before worship starts and say, okay, when it's time to read the Scripture, stand up where you are. You read this, you read that.
Tiffany:And just that, again, just that will for, for a community that's not having liturgical dance and not doing things, you know, I, I say keep it as simple as possible early on. If you've got access to technology in the worship space, there's all I mean, you can find beautiful videos and there's all kinds of resources for worship these days that you can that you don't even have to create the the piece of art. You people create it for you. You can just share it.
T.J.:You alluded to having an early spiritual experience. You're like, oh, my first spiritual experience. So let's talk about that for a minute. Would you call it a god encounter? Was it an early god encounter?
T.J.:And what what occurred?
Tiffany:Well, I realized as I was talking, I I joined our church, Hueytown Cumberland Presbyterian Church, when I was 9 years old. And I did that on Father's Day, because I love my daddy. He was the pastor. But also because that happened to be right after summer camp. And so that was probably if I was only 9, that had to be I think it was I think it was overnight camp.
Tiffany:In my mind, it is. At least my memory what my memory has told me now at 50, it was overnight camp. It might have been the day camp for all I know, but I feel like I was there overnight, because I feel like what this happened at a nighttime worship. And so one of the adults from my congregation was one of the counselors, and, her name was Monet Cullen. And we had worship.
Tiffany:I was 9 years old. And, again, I had a an emotional reaction that I did not understand. And so I can't tell you one thing that happened in worship. I can't tell you one thing that was said. I can't tell you one song that was sung.
Tiffany:I just know that at the end of that worship service, I was sobbing, and did not know why. And they did, you know, back then, it was very common to have, altar calls. And I know that in some some of our churches and areas, that's still very common. And so there had been some sense of that. There had been some sense of, do you want to give your life to Jesus?
Tiffany:So I know I mean, I know it I it didn't just come out of nowhere. I know that I had heard that. So I was very emotional, and the way that they had ended worship was to say the counselors are gonna be around the pavilion. In fact, in my mind, I see the pavilion at Camp Clark Williamson, even though I know that that's not where it was. This was in Alabama somewhere.
Tiffany:So but it was a pavilion like that. And the counselors, you know, sat around it to be present for any children that wanted to come and and talk with them. So I, again, confused, but I went to, Monet, and, she hugged me. And she, you know, told me she loved me. And I said, I think I want to follow Jesus.
Tiffany:And she prayed with me. I I couldn't tell you. I I I that's all I know that happened. I know that she was very loving and supportive and, prayed with me, told me she loved me again, and I said we talked to my dad when we got back, you know, after camp. And so I did that, and, I don't know if I don't know if Father's Day happened to be the very next Sunday or which very well could be, but I know that it was Father's Day that year.
Tiffany:You know, we we had talked beforehand, and during the final, hymn, during the, hymn of invitation at Hueytown Cumberland Presbyterian Church. I went forward and, and, and dad welcomed me into the congregation, asked me the and I joined, I joined the church, became a member of the church and made a profession, a public profession of faith.
T.J.:Very Cumberland Presbyterian response.
Tiffany:That's what it was.
T.J.:What is it like to grow up in a minister's household? What kind of conversations happen around the kitchen table? Mhmm. What what happened when people in the house would be angry or upset? Are ministers allowed to be angry and upset?
Tiffany:Well, my dad, just because of his I did see him angry and upset sometimes, but it was very rare. He was just a even kill kind of guy, slow and steady. My mom, I think I get some of my emotional reactions from her. She she sometimes would be more emotional. But they we, you know, almost this is probably not true to either.
Tiffany:I you know, the older I get, the more I realize memory is not very reliable. But so and I always want to tell the truth. And so I feel like I'm lying if I don't tell you. I don't know if this is really true. But, it feels like, I'll put it that way, that we had roast and potatoes and carrots and rolls and iced tea every Sunday after church.
T.J.:You probably did.
Tiffany:We did a lot, but I know seeing the reason I stopped is because I can hear my mama saying, we did not have it every Sunday. Sometimes we went out to the bright start. So there were lots of conversations over roast and potatoes. And I'm trying to I'm starting to feel a little, guarded, but, TJ, I'll tell you because I'm thinking, will mom listen to this? Mom, are you listening to this?
Tiffany:I thought about making Andy angry, but I didn't think about making anybody else angry. So anyway but mom, you know, I think I have a theory that she would not agree with. That had my mother been born at a different time in history, she would have also been an ordained minister. She has a calling in her life, which she has lived into, in very real and meaningful and wonderful ways, and at the same time had a very was very theological in her thinking. And so when we would come home and dad had been able to share all of his thoughts theologically in the sermon.
Tiffany:Mhmm. So when we would come home, mom would engage in this conversation with him about that so that she could share her thoughts theologically. So I heard lots of very wonderful, interesting conversations. The thing that I learned that I still let's see. I'm getting emotional now.
Tiffany:I wish there was a way to thank my parents enough for the this gift that they gave me where they could argue. They could debate what the Bible says. They could disagree with each other at the dinner table. And at the end of it, we go watch TV. I mean, you know, I hope that that's what I'm giving my own children.
Tiffany:I I think it is because, of course, their father and I do not agree on a lot of things. And I I some of those some of those conversations, both in my own marriage and with my parents. I mean, I don't mean that they were just simple, easy, breezy conversations over dinner. I mean, I can remember my mom throwing pots and pans in a into a a sink, you know, while she's cleaning up, yelling at daddy because she can't believe that he could be a Christian and and think the things that he did. And, of course, dad would be like, well, honey, you know, whatever.
Tiffany:Those things. Could they could do that and still go forward, you know, and still grow together as Christians.
T.J.:Those faith conversations, did it include did they include, you and your your siblings? So were there conversations that wasn't just, you know, a husband and wife, the 2 spouses, but was it family conversations as well that maybe didn't happen at the at the kitchen table?
Tiffany:They did, of course. And then the older I got, the more they happened. It's sort of the family business in our family. So that's always gonna be part of anytime we all get together, we end up having some sort of theological discussion. These memories that I'm I'm talking about, I'm the youngest of 4 with 6 years between me and my next sibling.
Tiffany:And so there were, in my memory, again, which could be completely flawed, in my memory, it's me and mom and dad at Sunday dinner, and I I did a lot of listening. I'm sure I piped up. I mean, come on, look at me. I know I piped up. But I don't remember anything profound that came out of my mouth.
Tiffany:I mean, you know, it was like but I remember profound things that came out of my parents' mouths.
T.J.:Tiffany, why ministry to the word and sacraments? Why this vocation? Why this calling? Why not something else? Anything else?
Tiffany:That silence you hear people is Tiffany thinking very hard. Because it's actually a question I think I'm asking myself daily right now.
T.J.:You grew up in Mhmm. The household that had 1 minister in it and possibly 2. And you get to see the beautiful aspects of the community of faith coming together, worshiping, doing mission in ministry together. And at the same time, you know, as an institution, we we can we can be ugly and we can make horrible mistakes. And you were able to experience and witness that, I assume, just because by nature of ministry.
Tiffany:Yes.
T.J.:And that turns a lot of ministers' children away from the church, not just not just ministry. So you had an opportunity, probably multiple opportunities, for another vocation. So why this field?
Tiffany:Hey. This might be, one of your questions that you sent for me to reflect on was if you could ask God one question and know you would get an answer. This might be it. I couldn't figure it out. This might be the question.
Tiffany:Why did I have to do this? Mhmm. That's how it feels right now, and that sounds terrible. I told you yesterday, I might not be your regular upbeat guest, because I have, yeah, I think it's a hard time in the church in general right now. I did not want growing up, I never dreamed.
Tiffany:Let me back up for a minute. It never occurred to me that I could be a pastor, that I could be a preacher, Because it I didn't even think, oh, I can't do that because I'm a a girl. I just it just didn't it never crossed my mind. It wasn't something that you even considered, that I even considered. So what I did was swear to myself, to God, and to everyone who would listen that I would never ever, ever marry a preacher.
Tiffany:Because I did not want to be in that house. I did not want to to see that side of the church anymore. I did not I know how difficult it is. I always knew how difficult it was, and I did not want to continue to go through that. I'd like to know what it's like to just be someone attending church.
Tiffany:I don't know what that's like. I never have. So then, the man that I fell in love with, I should say boy, the boy I fell in love with, you know, he's called to ministry. And because I had said many times in front of him the same thing, he assumed that that would be the end of our relationship. He he really I'm putting words in his mouth, and it's probably not this strong.
Tiffany:But I think that there was a brief shorter time where it really was. Do I do what God wants me to do or do I stay with Tiffany? Because he thought once he confessed this call to me, that was gonna be it. And, of course, the way that so many of us who have experienced calls to ministry and their families have experienced. By the time he told me, I said, I've been waiting for you to tell me.
Tiffany:Like, what? Of course, I knew that. You know? And so and as he was in seminary I really am babbling. You can cut me off any minute.
Tiffany:As he was going through seminary, because of the experiences I've shared, I 100% believed and believe now that my call was to theater. I wasn't sure what that was gonna look like. And in my college career that ended up becoming stage management, working behind the scenes, helping to make, production happen. But 100%, people would ask me, what does your husband do? He's in seminary.
Tiffany:Oh, he's called to ministry. Yes. He's called to ministry. I'm called to theater. Okay.
Tiffany:I cannot tell you how many times I said that. People got sick of it.
T.J.:So, your your college education then was in in theater. Yes. And and so you were you were looking ahead into the future of having some some type of vocation
Tiffany:Yes. In In stage management.
T.J.:In stage management. But that changed. Before we get to that change, how did you and your husband, Andy, meet?
Tiffany:Oh, church camp, of course.
T.J.:Okay. Well, tell the story. I don't
Tiffany:It's just all so ridiculous when you say it all together.
T.J.:Okay. So yeah. So you have that.
Tiffany:Just find it so sappy and ridiculous. Well, we actually met. So my sister, who is an ordained covenant Presbyterian minister, Lisa, this is before she was ordained, but she was married and had 2 of her 3 children already with Barry, who is also ordained and was ordained at the time. And so Barry and Lisa were directing a camp. Must have been junior camp, at, Camp Spain in Birmingham, Alabama.
Tiffany:Camp Spain's no longer there. It's very sad. And so they needed a baby. They wanted to take their children with them to camp. Their children were only 23, maybe maybe even a little younger than that.
Tiffany:They wanted to take their kids to camp with them, but they they needed somebody to watch them. So aunt Tiffany got to go. Aunt Tiffany's only 13 years old. But I got to go to be the babysitter while they were in, you know, leading worship, be it leading Bible studies, things like that. Andy was the lifeguard of the camp for those few weeks of summer camp.
Tiffany:And so he was there as the lifeguard. And so he was willing to let me take my niece and nephew swimming while all the other campers were doing things. So Andy and I would hang out at the pool with the 2 kids.
T.J.:And that is how you 2
Tiffany:that's how you met.
T.J.:Okay.
Tiffany:That's how we met.
T.J.:Alright. You were enamored by a lifeguard.
Tiffany:A lifeguard. Beautiful lifeguard. He was really it really was he was really very goofy looking. And we but we yeah. We would just, you know, we just go along and, there's a bit of an age difference, which he still swears he did not understand or know at the time.
Tiffany:He thought I was older than I was, and then I couldn't date because I was too young, and so we talked on the phone back when you literally had to sit by the wall and talk on the phone. And for years, we talked on the phone. And we would go to church events to see each other.
T.J.:So this relationship was maintained for the longest time by phone and then by brief encounters through camp. You know, your early experiences keep pointing back to camp. Mhmm.
Tiffany:I am.
T.J.:So your husband, Andy, is a minister as well. What is the life of a clergy couple like? What what is what's what's beautiful about it? What's unique about it?
Tiffany:Well, I mean, I will tell you what our life is like. I, you know, you are also in a clergy couple, and I'm sure that that all of us have different experiences and different, you know, thoughts on what's beautiful and what's not. What is beautiful? That's a great question. I love that question, so I wanna think about it for a minute.
Tiffany:What is beautiful about being in a clergy couple? Well, this is weird to me that this is what's come into my mind. But, special moments like baptizing our children, I know that that I mean, again, there there that should be special for any parent anywhere. And and I my father baptized one of our children, and then we baptized our other child together, I think. But, anyway, just being able to share that and have a deep connection and understanding of what that moment means to baptize our infants.
Tiffany:Mhmm. You know, things moments like that Christmas Eve communion, and this was true growing up too. That's one of my my family's favorite memories as when we would, walk up walk next door to the church to be the last My dad did the come and go, communion, and we would be the last family to take communion on Christmas Eve with him before we all went down to the house to eat supper and get into the gifts. So special occasions like that, I I don't they feel they feel like they have a little extra specialness to me, but I don't know what it's like to not have that. So I don't know.
Tiffany:You know, I don't have any comparison. We do have really great conversations and both of our children, take after us in in not being quiet and sharing their opinions. And so we have great conversations around the dining room table at our house too. And I think that being a clergy couple it's not necessarily being a clergy couple, it's the education that we have, that we share, and the reflection that we've done through the years that we can share. And so one of the kids will say something and, you know, we'll look at each other and go, are you gonna take this, or am I gonna take this?
Tiffany:Because we we gotta make sure that they know that that's ridiculous, you know, or whatever it is. And then sometimes the kids blow us away and we go, oh, wow. That's a good way to look at it.
T.J.:Every minister has a different set of gifts and qualities that they bring to to the vocation, to the field of ministry. For you and for Andy, as a clergy couple, do your gifts complement each other? Do they overlap? Do they conflict? You know, what is that like for the uninitiated who are not clergy couples?
T.J.:Mhmm.
Tiffany:Well, and again, I don't know that this is true for anybody else, but our I think that our gifts do complement each other. He's much more introverted than I am, much more quiet, much more reflective. I'm loud, obnoxious, and, like to be in front of people. Our gifts, he has, we both really have gifts and administration, but the way that we administrate is very different. So we have the we've really only I'm trying to make sure I'm telling this.
Tiffany:We've really only had one time in our career that we really got to work side by side in the same congregation. We were associate pastors, And I, surprise, surprise, primarily worked with youth and children, and he primarily did administration. And we were concerned going into that about how we would work day to day with each other. You know, we I was like, I don't I don't know if we're gonna be able to get along. I don't know if this is gonna be good.
Tiffany:Will we be able to leave it and not take it home? All those things that anybody that works with a spouse probably thinks. And we found it to just be wonderful because, congregation members who really connected with him, there was you know, some of those people would never find connection with me. Mhmm. Then there were people that found connection with me that would would not find it easy to talk with him.
Tiffany:And so we we really enjoyed being able to see the way that God was working through our different gifts, our different personalities to reach more people.
T.J.:We jumped over your calling to ministry and and how that occurred and where. So let's go back and live there for a little bit. You were a student. And where were you a student at? And you were studying theater.
T.J.:So we'll pick up there. And you already made one con promise by breaking a swear. So Right. I'm wondering if there's more coming ahead. Anyway, I'm ready.
Tiffany:That's right. I was Andy had finished seminary and had, taken the call to be associate pastor at West Nashville Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And I was finishing up my undergrad degree at the University of Memphis in theater. And it was Easter Sunday morning. I was late to church because that's me.
Tiffany:It was packed, of course, because it's Easter. This was, you know, 20 25 years ago, 20 something so so it was packed. So I sat in the back. And speaking of baptism again, Andy was actually baptizing to young people. He primarily worked with youth at the time.
Tiffany:And, and 2 of those young people were being baptized on Easter Sunday morning and joining the church. And during that rite, during that ritual, that sacrament, I heard you have to go to seminary. I was 1 month away from graduation, if I haven't already said that. Was 1 month away from graduating. I was already putting in applications to be a stage manager at local, theaters in Nashville, and I was furious.
Tiffany:I was so angry.
T.J.:So let me interrupt you. You heard, was this an audible voice? Was it something you read in the bulletin? Was it something in the preaching? What
Tiffany:It was another emotional my emotions, changed, you know, seemingly out of the blue in the same way in the theater when the lights went down. I suddenly found myself overcome in the same way at camp. During worship, I suddenly found myself overcome. It was partly that I did hear the words, and this is always difficult to to describe to people, but I try to get better about describing it. Everybody's experience is different, But I did hear in my own head, you have to go to seminary.
Tiffany:And I knew that that was not at the moment at that moment in time, I knew that was not anything that I was telling myself. So it wasn't it wasn't outside. I knew I did not think that other people could hear it. I wasn't looking around to see where the voice was coming from. There was nothing like that.
Tiffany:It was inside my head, but clearly not from me is the best way that I know to describe it.
T.J.:Alright. What was your initial reaction? You're almost done with school. You already have
Tiffany:a career
T.J.:plan ahead of you.
Tiffany:Angry. I was mad. I was sad. I felt like I'd been tricked, because don't forget, I've been shouting from the rooftops for 4 years. Yes, He is called to ministry.
Tiffany:I am called to theater. So for 4 years, I've been going, I do have a call. This is my call. And I still believe that. I just understand it differently now.
Tiffany:But, I ran away as soon as church was over. I I ran away from church. I wish y'all can see TJ's face. I did not run away, that I did not stay for the Easter, you know, pleasantries. I I had to get out of there because I was very emotional.
Tiffany:And when Andy finally got home after all the Easter pleasantries, I was on our our bed in our bedroom just bawling, like, just crying. And he thought to to talk about what it's like to be in the ministry. This this will give you some indication if you haven't been in the pastor's house. He came in and was immediately so upset. He he grabbed me.
Tiffany:He hugged me. He was like, are you okay? What did what did somebody do? Who what did they say to you? He thought that somebody in the church had done something mean or said something ugly.
Tiffany:He he thought that's why I was crying. And I, when I finally got my breath and was able to, through sobs, I said, I think I have to go to seminary. That son of a you know what said, Oh, yeah, I've been wondering when you were going to realize that. Which made me angrier. And so, anyway, then I made a deal with God to let me have a year off.
T.J.:Alright. Hold on. We'll we'll get to that. Why did why did Andy's response, which was exactly your own, why did that make you even more angry?
Tiffany:Because I wanted him to say no. That that is not because I didn't want it to be true. I didn't want that was just another confirmation. I did not want this to happen. And even though and that that's why I say, of course, that process I I took a year off, as I just said.
Tiffany:And that process, the further you get away from that specific moment of having an experience of a call in that way. And, again, I don't think that my call was just that moment. I think it was all these things that I've talked to you about. It was the theater. It was the camp.
Tiffany:It was the, you know, I think it was all of that, but I still I did have that moment.
T.J.:Yeah. It culminated.
Tiffany:And when you get further and you get further and further away from that, you start to question, did that really happen? Or maybe I'm crazy. Why would God call me? I had a lot of talking about my sister earlier. I had a lot of anxiety about everybody's just gonna think I want to be like Lisa.
Tiffany:I do want to be like Lisa. I have always wanted to be like Lisa, and I have never been able to live up to being like Lisa. And so and so there was a lot of anxiety that I had to deal with about that. Like, am I just trying to follow in her footsteps? Am I, and actually, her husband's the one that helped me the most with that whole issue.
Tiffany:When I I sort of went and had 1 on 1 meetings with people, and I guess I was looking for somebody to say, oh, no, you can't be right about that. Oh, so the course
T.J.:through the course of the year, the year that you took off, you went and tested this call
Tiffany:Yeah. With other individuals. I told Lisa.
T.J.:You were waiting for somebody to tell you, yeah, that didn't work. I wanted to come.
Tiffany:I expect I every time every time when I told Andy, when I told Lisa, when I told Barry, every time I expected them to say, let's just keep praying about that, or, what makes you think that? Or, you know, anything anything that that would lead me to I need to really further discern this. And every single one of them, down to my mother and my father, every single one of them said, oh, of course. Even, this is my favorite story. Do I have time to tell you my favorite story?
T.J.:Okay.
Tiffany:I I was in the theater department. My dear friend, she's my mentor. Her name is Josie Helmy. She was raised Catholic, and became a hippie and was a theater person, never married, never had children. I'm trying to paint a picture in case you can't.
Tiffany:She was 6 she was 6 foot something. She was so tall, had very short, gray hair, never, as long as I knew her, never stepped foot in a church. She had that being raised Catholic was enough. She was done. She never stepped foot in a church.
Tiffany:We hardly ever talked about church. While I was doing my degree, most I mean, I spent most of my hours I rarely saw Andy. I spent most of my hours in that theater building at the university, because when you stage manage, it's just a lot of time. And so I was trying to do my classes and do that, and it was just a lot. So she was the one that I was most afraid to tell because she's the one that had, first talked me into changing my major to theater, in fact, and not have a a fallback, not have something to fall back on.
Tiffany:She was the one who had said, you have gifts to be a stage manager. I could put you on stage if you really wanna be on stage, but your gifts are in stage management. And she taught me how to be a stage manager, a kickass stage manager, by the way. And and she was the one that at that moment in time was helping me look for full time work for when I graduated from from the department. So I was terrified to inform Josie that I thought I had to go to seminary.
Tiffany:And I keep saying it this way, because this is how it is in my brain. This is how I talked about it. I didn't know anything beyond that. I only knew you have to go to seminary. And so I can remember the exact place I was standing.
Tiffany:I did not wait until we were sitting down somewhere. I was so scared to say it out loud to her. We were walking down a hallway, and I said, Josie, I have to tell you something. And she was like, okay. And keep in mind, she's much taller than I am.
Tiffany:Not that I thought she was going to hit me or anything, but she's intimidating. That's what I'm saying. She's intimidating. And she said, okay, what is it? And I said, I think I have to go to seminary.
Tiffany:And she stopped walking. She turned around, she looked at me, and she was my she was the one that was gonna get me out.
T.J.:You know
Tiffany:what I mean? And she said, of course you do. That's what you've been doing here all along. Those were her exact words. And I just burst into tears.
Tiffany:And she came. She was there the day that I was ordained at West Nashville Criminal Presbyterian Church too. She called it my flying up, which is not in any way theologically correct. But she said, I'm coming to your flying up, and she was there. And I was there I was there the moment she died.
Tiffany:Anyway so so, anyway, that's one of the stories. So she was one of those yes. I went to each person hoping each one of them would say, this can't be true. And every single one of them said, oh, of course. We've been waiting for you to come on board.
T.J.:Yeah. So by going to each person during this course of the year, you were just looking for that hesitation, that that silence, that, I don't know, a version of eyes, or no. And and and you didn't get it.
Tiffany:Yes.
T.J.:But at that time, when you said go to seminary, did that mean go for ministry?
Tiffany:I didn't know what it meant.
T.J.:I had no idea. So it was open ended.
Tiffany:So it Open ended. Okay. I had no idea. Still never, even after I was in seminary, I could not imagine myself preaching. Did not really yeah.
Tiffany:I, you know, Christian education, all of the things that had been the normal things for but the that call that was so clear and true at that moment on that Easter Sunday, all I knew was seminary. And then through seminary, you know, I began to of course, my call is changing is changing today. I you know, I'm always I'm not exaggerating that I, you know, I spend every morning going, okay, what is it today? What am I called to do? I don't think, let me rephrase.
Tiffany:I don't think that my call really changes. But I think that I am in the midst of a transition where my call is shifting. And I think that, that happens throughout our lives.
T.J.:Yeah. It's not a question of the calling to the word and to the sacraments is how to live that out, how to how to how to take these these mere gifts, these mere things that have been laid upon you and me, and how can they best better this creation as brief as brief of the time that I'm here on this planet. That's hard to articulate, I think, at times when you're working through those those periods because you you don't want it to sound like, burnout or anything like that. Although, you don't know. You don't know what it is.
T.J.:And Right. In in any type of leadership, I think those are almost private little journeys. They're difficult to have with others or in public. I imagine because, you know, in many ways, you're supposed to be rock solid.
Tiffany:People are really ridiculous if they think that. But, you know, as you said that, I thought, I don't know, maybe this is just it would be interesting to me to know if there are lots of people who are like this. You know, so I'm always asking that question, not just for myself, but for the congregation with whom I'm working too. I'm sure that the people at Brunswick Cumberland Presbyterian are sick of me saying, what are we called to do right now, right here? We don't know the answer.
Tiffany:I've been there for 3 years, and I've been asking the question for 3 years. We're still trying to discern the answer. We do not know the answer. That's why I'm thinking, like, maybe is there something wrong with me that I keep asking the question? Maybe you shouldn't be asking the this is you're literally watching my brain kind of do some gymnastics here.
Tiffany:I'm trying to figure it out. But there's something in me is what I'm saying. There's something in me that I trust is how God made me that makes me continuously be asking what what now? What's next? What, you know, I just think we've got to keep moving forward.
T.J.:And I think with a few years behind us, those questions become more more reflective and have more meaning. You know, where do I fit in this context of this world? And, you know, you almost grow into your own body and your own head. Yes. Absolutely.
T.J.:I I'm built the way that I'm built. You know, there was this level of kind of acceptance or you overlook, you know, I will never have a full head of hair. You know, whatever it may be, you know. Right. Right.
T.J.:I'm saying that in jest, but you know your limitations and go, okay, here are the limitations, but here are the gifts. How can I share them for the rest of my time here to the betterment of the kingdom, to the betterment of the world, to the people that are around me, the people that I encounter? If we're not asking those types of questions regularly, then, you know, it makes me wonder about our purpose and our identity individually and as a community of faith.
Tiffany:Well, that's how I feel. That's I mean, that's what I was wondering. I was like, maybe I am the only one who does this. But yeah. So I'm constantly asking the congregation, you know, to be in prayer and to be discerning.
T.J.:It is because
Tiffany:I I don't as as much as I believe I you know, I have also said we were created to worship, and I believe that. I believe worship is of the utmost importance. And I don't think that a church exists just to gather an hour a week to worship, sing some songs and hear some preaching and then go about their business. So
T.J.:Yeah. Where's where's they're called
Tiffany:to do something else.
T.J.:Yeah. Where is the witness? And whatever that means for that particular faith community, the witness to the world, and what is that mission, what is that ministry, you know, what does that look like for the rest of the hours of the week? Right. Whether we're alone or together.
Tiffany:Right.
T.J.:Yeah. Right. I you know, if gosh. You can go back to biblical times, those those seasons of discernment, you know, I compartmentalize. I think we all do.
T.J.:Okay. In 30 days, I'm gonna have an answer for this or this will be accomplished. Or, you know, in 90 days, this can occur. But I don't know. When you're dealing with groups of people and then I bet when you're dealing with the Holy Spirit, it probably can't be put into those brackets.
T.J.:Right. Which is terribly nerve wracking because it's like, okay. Surely, we know now. I'm I'm I'm thinking of Brunswick in in this moment because you
Tiffany:Mhmm.
T.J.:Talked about that that particular congregation. Stage management. That was a dream. That was kind of one of those early career goals. Did it ever go away?
Tiffany:Oh, no.
T.J.:And are you doing it now?
Tiffany:I I'm not currently, like, right in the this moment in the middle of a production, but I do I stage manage regularly for a long time for a company that, friends from college started, Voices of the South here in Memphis. And if they whatever they need, I do. And for most recently, I've been stage managing usually once or twice a year for theater Memphis. What was the last thing I stage managed? Cicada, which has been nominated for several Ostrander Awards, which is the local, awards for theater in Memphis.
Tiffany:So
T.J.:Alright. That sounds like a PR, like a plug. But congratulations. I'm
Tiffany:excited. There's nothing anybody can do about it. They are just excited that they were that that the group was nominated. It's well deserved.
T.J.:Tiffany, through our conversation, we we've kinda, like, jumped all over your your lifespan and and, to present and past and back and forth. When have you felt the closest to God?
Tiffany:Well, it is emotion, you know, emotions are important to me. And so those moments that I've already described, when somehow my emotions overtake me in a way that is surprising. There are emotions that I have that are not surprising and that I know where they come from and that, you know, if I'm watching a movie and I end up in tears because the child died, you know, that's that doesn't feel spiritual to me, usually. But when my it's just saying, you know, I I have spiritual moments with all works of art too. So, but, you yeah.
Tiffany:Usually, when my when when I have those moments, When I first started, writing sermons, I had a couple of moments like that where when I was learning what it means to truly listen to the Holy Spirit and try to instead of trying to do it right, instead of trying to do it the best, you know, whatever, but really take time to to listen to God. And I had some emotional one time it wasn't even crying. It was laughing or I just was overcome by laughter and could not stop. I was absolutely alone and could not stop laughing. I felt crazy.
Tiffany:And I'm sure that there are people listening who would think that that is crazy. That's okay. It's not. So those are the moments when I felt closest. Of course, there you know, to be cheesy, there are moments when I rocked my children when they were very young that I would feel, very close to God.
Tiffany:It had some, ability of opening my mind to how much God truly must love me. Because I didn't know I didn't know I could love someone in that in that way and as much as I love them. And and so in feeling that it sort of expanded my view of God's love for me and God's love for you and God's love for for all of us. That moment, the call moment in West Nashville was a, you know, that's a big one.
T.J.:It is. What about today? What about feeling close to god today? What what is that presence like if you were to try to share and articulate that for someone who isn't faith connected? What language would you use?
T.J.:What theatrics would you employ? What arts would you incorporate into conveying the good news of Jesus Christ, that grace of God?
Tiffany:Well, I'm a theater person, not a music person, but I cannot deny there's something about music that it's probably there's probably some scientific reason that it speaks to a different part of our brain or some there's some way that it it makes its way past the logical. It makes its way past us trying to order things, us trying to compartmentalize things as you said. So, I mean, you know, Sunday morning during one of the worship services that I was in, one of the hymns we were singing. I can't even tell you what it was now. I just remember, you know, there was a moment where, let me try it.
Tiffany:How do I articulate what it is? I always end up laughing a little bit. So sometimes when people see me laughing in worship, they might think that I'm being rude or making fun. Sometimes I am. But more often than not, I'm having some weird little moment with God that I just find so incredible.
Tiffany:It makes me laugh. And so we were singing along and I just felt that sense of peace. I felt, you know, I just really felt that that God was present in with us in that worship experience. This is why it's difficult to talk about these things, TJ, because even as I say that out loud, God is always present with us whether I feel it or not. But something special happens where I acknowledge it or where I open myself to it or I'm willing to receive it or I don't I don't understand it.
Tiffany:It's mysterious. But, you know, so I felt that just this last Sunday in worship. That was with the Lutheran congregation. Oh, no. She's with the Lutherans too.
Tiffany:That was with the Lutheran congregation, that I serve as well.
T.J.:Yeah. That's right. You're well, wait. Before we get get to that part, there you're right. We have to be, in terms of sharing the faith, there there we I have to be receptive, you know, to to that presence, to that grace.
T.J.:And I think that well, I don't think. The need of that grace. So I like what you said, you know, the presence is always there, but there's there's a part of acknowledging that presence, you know, naming it and and receiving, that's I think that's the difference.
Tiffany:And someone else in that same room may have felt that with the first hymn. Or hopefully, it was something I said in a sermon or, you know, whatever. And then and didn't didn't feel much of anything while I was having a moment, you know.
T.J.:And and there's the counter to that as well. I mean, it is a choice. So there is there is also, not receiving or denying or
Tiffany:Absolutely.
T.J.:Or white knuckling the pew in in circumstance you know, in worship experience.
Tiffany:Oh, yeah.
T.J.:You were mentioning, you know, white knuckling the pew, hanging on.
Tiffany:Right.
T.J.:Alright. You mentioned that you served a Lutheran church. So Brunswick is a Cumberland Presbyterian congregation in the Memphis area, but you also serve a Lutheran church. And you served 1 years ago. Is this the same congregation or a different congregation?
Tiffany:This is the same congregation. Okay.
T.J.:I don't wanna tell your journey because I don't know it. But I vaguely remember you serving a Lutheran congregation.
Tiffany:Yes. I served them for about 4 years, part time, while I was part time at Memphis Theological Seminary, as chaplain, and my role at the seminary grew to the point that, it became full time and it was just I I would didn't feel like I was able to give the congregation the attention that they needed. And so that was I ended that call. I was just looking at this the other day. I don't know.
Tiffany:It's been, like, 10 years. It's been over 10 years. And then they recently, found themselves without a pastor again. And, and I was contacted. The the church is literally around the corner from where we live.
Tiffany:And,
T.J.:and
Tiffany:so now I serve both of them.
T.J.:You've been reunited with a former congregation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, talking about church, I ask every guest, Church Universal, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, Tiffany, what are we getting right, and what do you think the church is missing?
Tiffany:I thought about this one a lot because I know that you ask every guest. What are we getting right? And what are we missing? I've already alluded to, you know, I'm kind of in a a grumpy mood about the church. And that that's that's not just the
T.J.:And and and that was off mic. So you warned me, yesterday that you were just kind of in a in a grumpy mood. So
Tiffany:Yes. I'm in a grumpy mood about the church. And thus, our local churches and our denomination and the Church Universal, I am just over over the the whole, spectrum grumpy. So what are we missing, I think, is what comes and I don't know how to I don't know. This, this is probably what makes me the most grumpy.
Tiffany:I don't know how to articulate what is happening. There have been scholars that are much smarter than I am that are trying to write about it. I have written about it in the last 15 years, that are continuing to write about it. Phyllis Tickle comes to mind, that we're in the middle of, another reformation, you know, every 500 years. She said, every 500 years, there's a a rummage sale.
Tiffany:The church has a rummage sale, gets rid of what they don't need, keeps what they do. I do believe I believe that the way that I sometimes talk about it, because this feels more true to me, is that we are in the middle of an earthquake in the church, universal. And it's not a it's either in the aftershocks or still actually ongoing, so that we cannot find our footing. And so I think what the church is missing right now is finding its footing. I don't think we are what we're called to be.
Tiffany:I know maybe that's depressing to people and maybe and I hope I'm wrong, but I do not think that the church as a whole, globally, not even is call is doing what Jesus envisions for the church to do and be. And very specifically, because it's my context and my culture, and I feel like I can speak most to it, the church in the United States is absolutely failing, failing the world.
T.J.:Well, let's unpack that a little.
Tiffany:I have I have 15 minutes.
T.J.:Okay. You, you earthquake is an analogy. I mean, that's pretty traumatic. And, you know, death, destruction. So I'm pushing back a little bit just in terms of the metaphor.
T.J.:But what would help us in claiming our identity as the church at large and as the Cumberland Presbyterians? Where do we find that identity? How do we claim it?
Tiffany:Jesus, period. End of discussion. There's no theology. There's no interpretations of the Bible. There that Jesus has to be the focus.
Tiffany:Mhmm. The church cannot be the focus.
T.J.:The church in terms of the institution, the program
Tiffany:The institution of the church saving this institution. That's why, yeah, you're right. Hurricane, not hurricane. Earthquake is destructive, kind of harsh images are raised there. And, yes, I absolutely believe that that's what I because I believe I do believe resurrection will happen, but I do not believe we are there yet.
Tiffany:And so we have to go through the destruction and the death of what it has become in order to be resurrected into what Jesus is calling us to be. And may so maybe, I only know what I think by talking. So I you know, I'm again, this isn't like I have notes that I'm looking at. I I'm making it up as I go. And if somebody can call me tomorrow and ask me the same question, I might think something totally different.
Tiffany:And guess what? That's okay. So maybe maybe my saying that we are not the church as a whole is not what Jesus called us to be is not quite accurate. Maybe it goes back to that whole idea of of my believing. Our call is continuous and changing.
Tiffany:So maybe we have been. Maybe the church has been in moments. Of course, we have a dark history. They've done some really terrible things as the church. So I'm not sure I believe it, but I'll say it.
Tiffany:Maybe maybe we have been what Jesus called us to be at some point. But at this point in history, Jesus is calling us to something beyond. What what I think most people think of when they think of the church.
T.J.:So this earthquake analogy, and not to not to be hung up on it. You know, an earthquake is, you know, an act of nature.
Tiffany:And can I just say, you know, we're in Memphis? We're both in Memphis, though. We're not in the same room. And they always talking about how any minute now the big one's gonna hit Memphis. There's gonna be a huge earthquake here because we're on a fault line.
Tiffany:Wouldn't it be fantastic if an earthquake hit right now? No. No. It wouldn't. You're right.
Tiffany:It wouldn't. No. I do I do have my earthquake kit. Thanks to Andy McClung. But
T.J.:Okay. Alright.
Tiffany:You didn't find that funny at all. I'm trying to be funny.
T.J.:I don't know. I don't know if earthquake is funny. Okay. So, alright. I'm gonna get alright.
T.J.:I'm gonna start over again. Good for me.
Tiffany:Alright. Be serious.
T.J.:So we we talked a moment about, you know, the faults, the mistakes, and what the church is missing. I don't wanna close the conversation without talking about some of the things that we, as a body of people, under the umbrella and the grace of God, what are we what are we doing right in the 21st century?
Tiffany:Well, I think the sense of community, I I believe that everything that we learn from Jesus' life and teaching points us toward community. And I do think that the ways in which we continue to build community locally, individually, and globally, especially for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, I'll mention globally, the ways that we continue to work to be better about, strengthening that community globally. I think I think that's good and right, always good and right, and positive. I believe that Christians who are standing up for social justice I promised you I'd mentioned it. I'm gonna mention it for LGBTQ issues.
Tiffany:I believe they're getting it right. But it's hard for me to say that because then I say that once I say that, there's so many that I believe are getting it wrong. So it's hard to stay positive. That's why this very question is likely the one that had me worried. I wanted to to warn you that I would be grumpy because it's hard for me right now to be all, rainbows and no, no pun intended, but rainbows and unicorns and and all those things.
T.J.:What do you think the church in the near future will look like?
Tiffany:I have no idea. I would I would that might be another one. Let me tell you. The question that was on I've already mentioned it. But that question about asking God one question just has my mind.
Tiffany:I'll be thinking about that question for weeks, TJ, because every time I thought of a question, because you're very smart, because you put a know that you would get an answer. And it's that part that gets me hung up because because every question that I think okay. Like, for example, I've told you I'm trying to discern. What am I supposed to be doing? What is this next decade of my life supposed to be like?
Tiffany:Well, if I could ask God that surely to goodness, but wait a minute. That's pretty scary. I don't know what God's gonna say. And TJ told me God's gonna answer. So I'm not sure I wanna answer that question.
T.J.:Well, to give understand? Yeah. Well, to to give people context, so each guest, I share reflection questions ahead of time before the conversation. They're not scripted in the sense that we have to follow them. They're just whoever the guest is, kinda get their creative juices flowing, you know, and maybe help aid the conversation as we go along.
T.J.:And one of the one of the questions and I've asked it occasionally for previous guests. If you could ask God one thing and you knew you would get an answer, what would it be? But I don't ask that one too often. Usually, conversation, the faith journey goes in different directions.
Tiffany:I just find it such a great, what's the word I'm looking for? See, I need I need the whatever I'm looking for is what I need because I can't make words.
T.J.:It makes it deeper. It makes it less flippant. It makes it like, I don't know. It's a
Tiffany:good exercise for the thought processes. But so one of my questions might be, what is the church gonna look like? Because I think if I could answer that, I could make a gazillion dollars by explaining it because I think we're all I think anybody that is connected to work in the church is asking that question right now. What what is it gonna look like? I don't think it's gonna look like anything that it looks like right now, but I can't see what it's going to look like.
T.J.:Here's where I'm arriving on it. I I'm with everybody else. I don't know the answer. And instead of finding fear or anger or anxiety about it, I'm moving into a place of like, oh, wow. We collectively have the opportunity to help shape what the church is today and in the future if Yes.
T.J.:We choose to actively participate. That's a wonderful, wonderful place to be, and then all I have to do is examine my posture physically and spiritually to be open open to that. So that's where I'm growing in into if I had to answer that question is, is it oh, okay. The unknown it was unknown prior to any pandemic or real real or metaphorical earthquake that you alluded to. The answer really was the same.
T.J.:And Yeah. Yeah. Well, to wrap up our conversation, let me I think it's a lighter question. Is, I'm gonna ask it differently for you. What's your favorite book?
T.J.:Or what is your favorite movie? Or both.
Tiffany:One of my favorite books, is Traveling Mercies by Annie Lamont or Anne Lamont. I like to pretend I'm friends with her, so I call her Annie. I like almost everything that she writes. She's not for the faint of heart, but she and oh, here's a Holy Spirit moment for you. Excuse me.
Tiffany:So yeah, I'm getting teary eyed. Josie Helming, who I mentioned earlier is my mentor, who was the one that I was most afraid to tell. She gave me traveling mercies. She's the person who introduced me to Anna Lamont, this person that I did not think was spiritual, this person that I did not think had much to do with God at all gave me had read this book, loved this book, and gave me this book with her handwritten note in it. So that's one of my favorite favorite books.
Tiffany:I like, Carl Hiaasen. He writes ridiculous, stupid, like, detective novels. He's the guy that wrote Hoot, which is a a young adult one, but he writes the others the adult ones don't read if you don't like cussing. And then my favorite movie, I really I think it still is The Matrix, the first the first The Matrix. I love the matrix.
Tiffany:And I saw that while I was in seminary, that's it came out while I was in seminary. So I think I'm sure that there's some connection you know, all those things.
T.J.:But Yeah. There's some existential thoughts, philosophy, pseudo religious, maybe. I think we could even have our own podcast on dissecting the the matrix.
Tiffany:Of the first movie
T.J.:and have disagreements. Just just like just like with your earthquake metaphor.
Tiffany:That's right. That's right. There is no spoon.
T.J.:Tiffany, thank you so much for taking me on this wonderful, bumpy, curvy, colorful, wild faith journey that, I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed learning how God has spoken and continue to speak to you and and pray that god continues to to talk with you in your discernment in Brunswick and for all of us as a community of faith and Cumberland Presbyterians and mere mortals of this earth.
Tiffany:Yes. Thank you, TJ. I enjoyed it.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road podcast. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please consider subscribing on Apple, Spotify, Google, or your favorite podcasting site. Now to close from the author Phyllis Tickle in her book Emergence Christianity. Whatever one does in employing the mind as an agency for loving God must be governed and assessed in terms of Jesus' full directive. That is to love with the mind and its penchant for time bound logic is good Christian practice only if the soul, heart, and spirit are privy in equal parts to the ongoing conversation.
