Tyler Lindsey - Crises & The Power Of Presence
You're listening to The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Malinowski. The following is a faith conversation with Tyler Lindsey, the minister at the Briar Creek Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Bremen, Kentucky. Within the first 6 months of Tyler serving at Briar Creek, the area of Bremen was hit by an EF 4 tornado in December of 2021. 18 months later, Tyler sits down with me to share what it was like to minister during a time of crisis and what it is like to receive support. He shares that there is a gift, a gift in just being present in another's life, whether stranger, friend, or family. The gift of being present can speak to the heart of an experienced trauma such as a natural disaster. This discovery has shaped Tyler's life. This is the second attempt at recording my conversation with Tyler. Having technical difficulties on my end, he was gracious enough to sit down and try again, and I am so glad he did. Here is the faith journey of Tyler Lindsay.
T.J.:Let's start with Friday night, December 10th 2021. There was an EF 4 tornado that swept through your area where you live. Tyler, tell me about that experience and how that impacted you.
Tyler:Well, the night of the tornado, we had actually they got they got married and they wanted us to be in the bridal party. So I was a groomsman and Heather was a bridesmaid and, we went off. There was a Mackenzie, so we were staying in Mackenzie. And on our way there, we knew it was getting bad. That storm looked awful on the way there.
Tyler:And then we got into Best Western there in Mackenzie. I got into the room, turned on the TV. And about that time, the TV, on the TV, the news, they were showing this this tornado that had already traveled across multiple states. I think at the point when we were watching it, it was just about to go into Western Kentucky.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Tyler:And, it had already been through, I I wanna say, Tennessee, and or I started in Arkansas. And so I watched a little bit of it, and saw where it was going and just, you know, what do you do? You can't stop it, as much as you want to. Well, let
T.J.:me ask
Tyler:you this.
T.J.:Let me interject. And I have to admit, when I when we have storms come through, you turn on the TV and you look. And there's that thought in your head, oh, no. There's a bad storm, but it isn't going to affect me Or I don't want it to. You know, a lot of times, you still think you think of, well, I don't want harm on anyone else, but it isn't gonna happen here.
T.J.:Did that go
Tyler:through you? No. That happened. Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler:It for me, it it certainly did. I watched I said, there's no way. You know, there's no way. This can't this isn't real. You know?
Tyler:And so we we watched it, and it it it went right over, Bremen. And there was just, you know, you know, sort of a silence. What do you say? You know? And so eventually, a little bit after that, one of one of the elders, the church, he called me and he said, brother Tyler, I don't know if you've seen it on the TV, but this tornado went through, and it it hit Bremen.
Tyler:He said, there is damage, and there's damage in your or out your way. We just don't know how how bad it was.
T.J.:Mhmm. So what were you what were you thinking at that moment? Kind of the same thing?
Tyler:Yeah. I think I was continually trying to, just just tell myself that it couldn't be that bad, you know, sort of a coping, you know, recognizing that I've seen what this thing has already done, you know, in other states and how big it is and how they were talking about how awful it is. It was, I think, when they when they were talking about a severe warning or the tornado warning, our area was already, what was, like, a potentially dangerous situation, which is, like, the highest you can get with tornado warning. So they weren't kidding around with any of this. And so, you know, it we heard there was damage, and I think the part of me ex just knew that it was a lot worse than what I was letting myself, believe.
Tyler:Right? But I think for the most part, until the next morning when people were able to get out and, really see the damage, there was this is little just like hanging on to hope that it wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be. And, you know, I'd call as soon as that happened, as soon as, my my elder called me, I started calling around, and, my that that hope that things weren't nearly as bad just got shattered, when I called one of my church members and found out that an elder and his wife had been killed. And I knew that this this there's just, you know, there's just there's no way, you know, that this was not nearly as bad as I thought it was gonna be. No.
Tyler:It was awful. And
T.J.:Well, let let me pause you again, and please we'll pick right up. So So you're in another town in another state, and you're experiencing a pull. You're pulled in 3 different ways. You have a commitment there. You and Yes.
T.J.:Your wife, Heather, are part of a wedding party the very next day. There's damage. There's damage in your area, and then there's the news of the death of a member of the church that you serve.
Tyler:Yes. Yes.
T.J.:Oh, my. You're all over the place then.
Tyler:It was at that moment I wish I could actually be in 3 places at once, but there was no way for me to do that. And, you know, it was awful, You know? I think too, I was working through a little bit of guilt at that point, because I was there, and there was suffering where I should be, you know, where I felt like I should be.
T.J.:Yeah.
Tyler:You know, because I'd always, you know, starting into that mini my ministry at Briar Creek, I told myself one of the things I'm gonna be very intentional about is being present, you know, and that ministry of presence. And I guess in that moment, I couldn't do that. And that that tore me up. You know? I was like, they're they're hurting.
Tyler:There's somebody has died. Somebody I know, somebody one of my elders, church family has died, and I'm not there. Mhmm. And I can't get there. And that was awful.
Tyler:I mean, that's something I still think about. Just that feeling alone, of being somewhere where there's, you know, somewhere else. Yeah.
T.J.:And you but in reality, you couldn't have physically gotten there. Anyway, we were talking off mic, and you were saying, from a logistics point of view, the roads were not available. Yeah. But still, that doesn't help with the rationale of where your heart wants to be.
Tyler:The heart wanted to be there. My mind knew I couldn't. You know, there's just no there's absolutely no way. I mean, trees are down everywhere, and they were cutting trees all through the night trying to get, you know, get into to get the roads in so that we can get, m EMS and, you know, emergency all the emergency services in there. And I say we as if I was there, but you know what I'm saying?
Tyler:You know? Yeah. They were. And so eventually, they were able to clear the road so that my mom and dad could come that next morning, while we were at the wedding. My mom and dad were in Freeman Mhmm.
Tyler:Looking at the destruction and, you know, my mom called me just I mean, she was toward all the pieces and she said she'd never seen anything like it. And, you know, me either. So I you know, I, I just, I just remember that, you know, that the sound of my mom's voice when she was telling me about it and, you know, it just she was she was absolutely shattered. But at the same time, I think she she also said, I'm happy you're there, because it could have been, you know, you were here and I know you, you know, and you wouldn't have been in the basement. I was like, so, is
T.J.:that is that true?
Tyler:Absolutely. I probably would have I would've been sitting in the in the living room or something. You know, until that power went out, then I would've gone to bed.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Because, this tornado, just for those who don't remember, this is late Friday night into Saturday morning.
Tyler:Mhmm.
T.J.:And, the the time that many people were at home and many were in bed. And, just in Bremen alone, there were, 12 people that died from the storm.
Tyler:Yep. And, unfortunately, the the reality is, a lot of them, you know, that we had had tornado warnings before. It's it's not uncommon to have tornado warnings here. But then that that thought of, well, you know, it it doesn't happen here. You know, sometimes that's wrong.
Tyler:And and it just happened to be that k the case there too. You know, you you you just think, you know, it'll never happen here, and and then December 10 happens. So it's, that they enforce that's the unfortunate part of it, and that that I think that would have made that same decision too had I been there. You know? I've had them we've heard them before, you know, You know?
Tyler:I'll just go to bed. Don't sleep at night. It doesn't happen. You know? It's never come through.
Tyler:You know? So I don't think anybody thinks that now.
T.J.:When you were able to return home, let's talk about what you found.
Tyler:We, we were able to get back into Bremen, on Sunday. I, we didn't get out of the wedding on Saturday till about 5 or so. And my mom, just, you know, she really asked me or really didn't ask me. She she informed me, or told me that I was coming to their house first. There was no if ifs, ands, or buts about that.
Tyler:So when mama says go, you go. And so I went to their house, and, they had the dogs there. The dogs were in the, in the in the house that the tornado hit. So they went and got them out, and they were, of course, very happy to see us. And so we, you know, we stayed with my mom and dad that night.
Tyler:And in the morning, we got up earlier, and went to the church, Briar Creek, where we had a whole bunch of us there. We didn't really have a service. I don't think that I was in any any shape or form to to even deliver a sermon that day. So I, so we we settled for just a a really, really meaningful prayer service, which was, you know, all we can do. You know, if that's all we can muster, that's all we can muster.
Tyler:And so that's what we did. We we we just had a prayer service, all of us together. And, you know, that's just what it's all you can do. And so after the prayer service, my my mom and dad, myself, and Heather, we all went to the to the to the house. And when I pulled in, it's it's really hard to, explain exactly the feeling that went through.
Tyler:I think stepping out of the driveway and you're just seeing, that house that you left in good con you know, in perfect condition. It was great. You know, it's beautiful home. You left it fine, and you come back and it's it's in pieces, you know. But how do you really, you know, deal with that other than, feel every single emotion all at once?
Tyler:Because I could see a lot of of belongings of mine. Things that I really cherish, they're gone. They're they're scattered all over the place. My neighbor's patio set was in my living room. It's it was, you know, just things like that.
Tyler:Heather's car had been speared, speared with tree branches, which was, you know, for what you know, that was I mean, actually, you know, and I don't it It was kind of cool to see that, you know, in a way, it was her car. I know that was, you know, I try not to, you know, sound like that, but it was kinda cool to see that. You know? I've never seen that before. But
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. It's a moment of awe. Yeah. Right.
Tyler:Absolutely. You've recognized the sheer power of this thing that went through, when it spears a car, you know, with with with a branch. You know? And so, but, you know, like I said, you feel every sort of emotion all at once because I see all this stuff that's mine. It's scattered everywhere.
Tyler:My life is everywhere. My house is gone. In that moment, I I recognize that I you know, if had I not had my mom and dad right there with me and knowing that they were gonna let me sleep at their house tonight, I would have had nowhere, you know, and, you know, that that was a humbling thought in itself. But, you know, seeing all that and that sadness, you know, but also there's joy in the fact that Heather was standing right next to me. You know, the one person, you know, I can't replace her.
Tyler:I can replace the things that were destroyed in the house. I can replace the house, but I can't replace her. Mhmm. And so, there was that joy there and that, you know, change in perspective, really. That that there was a change in perspective that took place then.
Tyler:I was still hurting a whole lot, but I think there was that recognizing that what mattered most to me was still with me. And so that yeah. Learning experience right off the bat.
T.J.:Well and you have your hurt and your loss, and it's connected as well with other people throughout the community. Yes. We we were talking off mic, how it was a it was a shared experience, but not the kind that you want to have in terms of a shared experience.
Tyler:No. Not at all.
T.J.:And then and then the loss of of life, within the church, but also in your community as well. As a minister and as a Christian, looking back on a year and a half ago, what how did your faith speak to you and help you work through that loss and and look to the future? And how did it help you with all the range of emotions that you were feeling in that moment and in in the days weeks to come?
Tyler:Well, I think, you know, looking back on it, it you know, it's been a year and a half. I, I really have begun to see just how important, the community aspect of our faith is. I know we have our personal faith, but so much of that is wrapped in the faith that we share with others, you know, and that that that time that we spend with others in worship of God and and service to God, you know, that's that's that's vitally important. And in many ways, we couldn't do it without that. I I imagine, I I, you know, thinking back on all that, all that we went through with the tornado, trying to go through that by myself would have been impossible.
Tyler:I think that it would have I don't it would have destroyed me. I was destroyed, but I was lifted up at the same time by the ones that were also there who were hurting with me, other Christians that were there who knew that, you know, in this moment, you know, we needed each other because God placed his placed us in each other's lives for that. And so there was this, you know, this recognition that now we are to be present in each other's, suffering, and lean upon one another because God you know, that's what God ordains that that that communal, commune the community. You know? He wants that.
Tyler:God wants that.
T.J.:Tyler, for you looking back, what do you think was the hardest part, the the in the moment of when you pulled into the driveway or receiving the news, you know, a couple nights nights earlier? Or was it the days or the weeks to come that felt the hardest that were the most difficult?
Tyler:I would say the days or the weeks to come, honestly. I think for the the the the night beforehand or the couple nights beforehand up until when I was standing in that driveway, I was numb. But, you know, what do you do? You know, and then I had all those emotions, but there was just this numbness that sort of pervaded it all. Yeah.
Tyler:Because you're you know, you I I was in shock. You know? You you spend all that time trying to understand what happened and, you know, you don't ever know that. I'm still trying to understand why it happened, but, I guess, one of these days, I'll understand that I don't have to understand. But,
T.J.:that's probably a really good place to be.
Tyler:Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:To be comfortable with the unknown, and to be comfortable with the uncomfortable. Mhmm. It's easier said than to actually live it.
Tyler:Yes. Yes. Trying to live it right now, and I tell you, it's easier said than done. But I, I would say that the the it was the weeks following, that that that were the hardest. I I think because one, we 1, we were again working through all of, you know, picking up our life together and, you know, trying to sort through and say what we can, the uncertainty of not knowing where we were going to live, because, you know, going back forth to Bowling Green, while it was good that we had my parents' house, it was also not feasible for me to go go back and forth every single day, with the one car that we had because our other cars had been destroyed.
Tyler:And so we were you know, you know, it it was a big struggle there, but I also I think in the weeks to come, there was also, you know, that need for, you know, people were wanting to know why and, you know, why do these things happen and and, you know, of course, you look to a minister to answer that, you know, like we like, for some reason, we have that answer, you know? I was like, look, guys, you know, as much as I would like to give you the answer, I don't think there's an answer I could give that really would, satisfy, because there I haven't found the answer that would satisfy me either. You know, and so, I think that struggle not being able to answer those questions, that hurt, that was hard, because you want to, but the best thing I knew to do in that moment, if I couldn't give them answers, is just to be there, and and to be present. I think, I've mentioned that earlier in the ministry of presence, and I think that goes a long way, especially in times of struggle, and strife like this one.
Tyler:Sometimes, the best thing you can do is be there for someone in their suffering, and that's it.
T.J.:You were in a a unique place because you're the minister at the Briar Creek Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And the the community experienced a tornado and loss. And you're called upon to be available to minister, and yet you too were directly affected by the storm, and with the loss of of home and possessions. So looking back on that, Tyler, how did you balance the care of self and the care of others from well, yeah, from a theological, spiritual, and even a pragmatic way?
Tyler:Well, I I think a lot of the balance was, was in finding, you know, for me, finding someone that I could turn to, and and let them pour into me. And there were a lot of people willing to do that, of course, pouring into myself, with, you know, staying in the word as much as I could. And then, you know, for those moments where, like, I I wanna I wanna vent to somebody. Well, I can't just vent to anybody. You know, there's that rage old question, who pastors the pastor?
Tyler:And so, you know, there were many, many ministers of the Carmel Post during church that reached out to me personally, called me and said, hey. Look. We know we know that there's gonna be a big struggle. You are in a really difficult position being, a pastor in this you know, in a community that has suffered such great devastation, and you yourself are a victim. They said.
Tyler:So, one of the I can remember, one phone call where one of the ministers said, hey, I don't care if you have to just yell at me yell at me, and let's find you know, let's get let's let's help you out a little bit. So there was, of course, I think, one of the big things, a way in finding balance is that the Cumberland Presbyterian Church was the balancer for me, in many ways. My Presbyterian, Cumberland Presbyterian, I mean, they showed up and showed out. You know, they, sent in many ministers to, help not just me, but help the community in in sort of a spiritual, counseling, in that moment. And and and it that was one of the really wonderful things that sparked out of, this this terrible event was the that that our Presbyterian, hopefully, soon, the denomination will have that sort of spiritual counseling, you know, and and and disaster relief, plan.
Tyler:And so, that but they were there, a lot, and they poured into me, and they recognized too. But, you know, I will say that my congregation, the Briar Creek congregation recognized from the get go, that, you know, yes, I am a minister in this moment, but I'm also the victim, and I'm also human. You know, and I'm not I'm certainly not gonna be able fine, they knew that they knew better. You know? You know?
T.J.:Yeah. I was gonna ask you, was it hard? Was it hard to to be vulnerable? Was it hard to receive help? Was it hard to show weakness for you?
Tyler:Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I think, we we don't want to be we don't that vulnerability is so uncomfortable because you don't know how somebody's gonna receive it. Some people might and he you know, you know, you might they might see your vulnerability as, you know, oh, well, he's he's he's obviously he doesn't have it all together. You know, obviously, he's, you know, you know, but he's lacking in some way.
Tyler:Well, yeah, of course, I'm human. I don't have the inability to be perfect. You know, that's we serve the one who was. That's that's that's that's as close as I can come. But, you know, I think that being vulnerable in in that moment was difficult.
Tyler:But at the same time, I think that it was impactful because I could have put on this facade that I was that I was unaffected. You know, I was okay, that I was standing strong and, you know, that that was it was gonna be just fine, but I I didn't believe that, first of all. In my in my in my mind, in my heart, I was, you know, there was a lot of hopelessness there that I was sifting through. Mhmm. And I and I believed it was better for my people to see that, to to see that there was this this sort of struggle that even their pastor has to go through.
Tyler:And that means that they also know that if they're going through that, they can bring that to somebody that knows and that understands. And so my hope was in my vulnerability because I I did. I I was vulnerable with my people and I, you know, but and I said, you know, the the fact of the matter is if, you know, this is a place for us to be vulnerable and for us to know that, it doesn't matter. You know? It doesn't matter what you know, that you you know, what you're bringing to, you know, to that.
Tyler:You know? If you're if you're willing to be vulnerable, then we are willing to listen and support you.
T.J.:And you were telling me that this had yet to be a long time pastorate. You haven't been at Briar Creek years years years when this traumatic event happened. How long were you at Briar Creek prior to December of 2021? Well,
Tyler:didn't even make it a year. I was the 6 months. I had a half a year in, when the tornado, you know, really changed things up. You know, it really I mean, just it it's flipped my life upside down, flipped the life of all of Bremen upside down and, you know, but I will preface this, but I you know, or qualify this by saying that I don't I don't think there's a minister anywhere, no matter if you've been at that church for 6 months or 20 plus years, that would be prepared for what happened. You know?
Tyler:Right. The seminary, I know Memphis Theological Seminary, I I love them to death, but, you know, they can't prepare me for something like that. You know? You know, they can't prepare anybody for something like that because that's just not something that you know how to prepare for.
T.J.:Right.
Tyler:You know, you can take disaster relief courses and disaster knowledge, you know, you know, thing. But until you experience and know, sort of that that feeling and go through it, really, it's on the, you know, that field almost field training almost. I was I don't know if that's the right way to say that, but it's it's what came to mind. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, certainly, a real life experience
Tyler:for sure. Life experience. There we go. There, you know, until you really, you know, feel that, you know, and go through it, then then you'll be gonna understand. But even that, you can't really prepare.
Tyler:And and that doesn't matter if you're a young young gun minister or, you know, you you're a veteran minister that's been there. You've been doing your job for a long time. You know, it's I don't think I don't think this is something you could prepare for anyways.
T.J.:So That's that's right. A loss is loss. Death is death. Trauma is trauma.
Tyler:Absolutely.
T.J.:Yeah. And to call it by any other name would I don't certainly would not put you on the path towards healing, I don't think. Well, we're almost 18 months out from December. And looking back, Tyler, how has this shaped your ministry? How has this shaped the relationship you have with the community and the relationship with your family as well?
T.J.:Oh, boy. That's a 3 part question. So you chew on whatever part that you want to, Tyler. But, you've already expressed that you can't go through such an event without being changed. So how has that changed your ministry, your faith, and your relationships?
Tyler:I think mostly, you know, in my ministry and my faith, I think it's really switched perspectives or, like, kinda changed up perspectives for me. It really, sort of helped me focus on what matters, you know, on on the people that sit in my congregation. I think that, you know, and and maybe this is, getting a little off topic, but I think so some so often we get wrapped up in other things, as ministers and as leaders in the church, and we argue things and argue things. But, the reality is the people that sit in our churches every Sunday, those are what matter. You know?
Tyler:How we minister to them, that's what matters. And, you know, for me, at least, seeing, seeing, you know, them come in every Sunday and knowing they're gonna be you know, they're in those seats and, you know, then seeing the 2 seats that should have somebody there, that don't because they were taken from us, you know, that's that's hard. But, again, that reminds me that, you know, I've only got a limited amount of time, you know, with them, they've only got limited time with me. I don't know where I'm gonna go. You know?
Tyler:I hope that it's a long time from now, but, you know, that's what you know, that I guess that perspective of, you know, that's what really matters. Mhmm. You know? And in that moment and bringing others into that moment with us, that family with us, and and showing them God, showing them God's love, showing them who Jesus is. And and yeah.
Tyler:Yeah. Being present. There's a there it is again. That's Yeah.
T.J.:I think that's very theological. If we look at the life and death and life again of Jesus Christ, how thin those lines are and how close they are. And I think when we're younger, and maybe young at heart, we sort of keep those two things at a distance, but they really are close. And the death, whether metaphorical or real, is also a reminder of how precious life is, I think, and how enjoyable it can be and is. Mhmm.
T.J.:Before we move from this part of our faith journey, Tyler, if you would, just tell me, where we're doing the recording, for this podcast or where you're sitting at, just to provide an update, but also, I think, a small celebration.
Tyler:Well, you know, it is a very, a big celebration for me. I'm gonna celebrate. I I'm actually doing this podcast, this recording from, the basement of my new manse, the new manse. The new house has been rebuilt, and so we are just busy, you know, making it a home. And we've had we unpacked very quickly this time because last time we did not.
Tyler:So
T.J.:And how long how long have you and Heather been in your new re your newly rebuilt home?
Tyler:We're going on about a month.
T.J.:Alright. Congratulations. To be able to Thank you. Yeah. Be able to call home home again.
Tyler:Oh, yes.
T.J.:Tyler, let's talk about a very deep and meaningful faith experience for you. It could have been when you were very young. And let's start there, maybe the earliest faith encounter that you can recall. And then we'll we'll go from there, kind of just sort of a a chronological journey if you want, but we can always take a little sideways pass.
Tyler:That sounds good to me.
T.J.:Yeah. Help me think back and share with me maybe the earliest faith encounter that you can recall.
Tyler:Well, I, am grateful and blessed to have been, born the grandson of a common Presbyterian minister, reverend Cordell Smith. And so a lot of my early life was spent with him. He picked me up from school. Mom and dad had to work, and so he and I would spend a lot of time together. Mhmm.
Tyler:But, you know, just because he had his grandkid with him, he also had to go work at the office sometimes. And, and so I would go with him. And I had the choice of, you know, I could go to if they had a nursery at the church he was at at the time, I could go to the nursery, play around there at, you know, but sometimes I would just, you know, grab a couple toys and then go sit in his office, and be quiet because he was working on things. But, you know, I would sit in his office with him just to be around grandpa, you know, be around papa is what I called him.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Tyler:And just listening to him as he, recited his sermons, That's a very impactful experience for me. And and and I think that has a lot to do with where I'm at today, in in many ways. You know, he, when I was, you know, by the time I was, old enough to really, you know, listen in and understand what was happening, he had he had gotten to the point where his seeing his sight was not great. Mhmm. And by that time, my grandmother was driving him to and from church.
Tyler:And so she'd pick us pick pick me up with him and we go, go places, but she, our he would he would recite his sermons, in a, tape recorder. And then he would listen back to him, listen back to him, listen back to him, and then he would, then record it again. He would he would he would continue to, just recite it back, until he knew it, and it's a lot of dedication there. He he saw he knew how important it was to his message, you know, the god's message, be heard and, you know, he had a a duty toward for his people.
T.J.:So was he if you can remember, was he using the tape recorder as in, like, note taking, or was he already kinda, like, working as in this is the delivery, and he kept doing the delivery until it could be memorized? Do you recall?
Tyler:Well, he would do both. I think he had 2 separate, you know, a little bit of a a oh, well, you remember, I'm still, like, 12. So, you know, detail wise, you know, but, you know, I, you know, I do remember him reciting the sermon he was going to preach that day. So it was him delivering it, and he wanted to make sure that he got it. You know, he did his best, so that God's message was heard.
T.J.:What an impression that must have made on you to see the dedication and the creativity to be able to adjust with, well, the changes of our body. And so instead of going, well, I'm done. I'm gonna go ahead and retire. I give up. I'm hanging up the rope or whatever phrase we wanna use.
T.J.:He kept at it and he just adjusted as his body adjusted. That's that's some dedication there.
Tyler:Absolutely. It's
T.J.:a pretty good first encounter. Now at that time, when you were pick up at 12 years old, we can always go back if you think of another experience. Were you thinking ministry or were you just thinking girls, sports?
Tyler:Yeah. Probably. Girls, sports. I have more probably girls than anything. But, you know, I we know we know, that's that age.
Tyler:You know, you start taking an interest in, and so I you know, yeah, I was obsessed. You know, obsessed is not the right word, but I was, you know, interested in, you know, you know.
T.J.:It probably was the right word.
Tyler:Probably. It probably, you know, I couldn't tell you. But, you know, I was interested in a few girls in my class and I, you know, I tell her I tell Bob about them, you know, and, you know, but, but I don't think that I had, really the inclination to go into ministry. I'd you know, I I don't think I would figure that out or really recognize that that was God's call for my life until way later, probably in college. Yeah.
Tyler:I was in college, about my freshman year. So up until then, I was it was a a slew of different, things I wanted to do with my life. But but I can assure you that ministry was not one of them. So, it was it it was something that I'd have to recognize later on in life. You know?
Tyler:So
T.J.:Yeah. I it's just funny that you were like, hey. There are possibilities out there, but ministry was not on my radar at that time.
Tyler:Mhmm. Nope.
T.J.:Let's talk about the transition then from, this not being on your radar or an option or a vocation or a calling to actually becoming a vocation and a calling or a calling and a vocation?
Tyler:Well, that that would that change with our transition would take place, right about the 2nd semester of my freshman year of college. I had made a mess of things, didn't do right, in many ways, flaunt, you know, really just squandered, the opportunity that I had been given, to, you know, learn and and, you know, go through, you know, you know, you know, I'm where I'm going with this is that I I, you know, I partied and I partied a lot. And that turned into a lot more drinking than I should have been doing and and and and a lot of smoking, marijuana. Yeah. That was the that was it.
Tyler:You know? Never never any, you know, very hard drugs or anything like that. Didn't want that. But, you know, it was, you know, drinking and smoking, and, that was practically my entire semester that semester. That's what I did.
Tyler:And it would it would be a friend of mine who, who would look me in the eye, and he would say and out of nowhere I mean, this wasn't just in the converse. This is out of nowhere. He said, you know, look, Tyler. I'm gonna tell you this. I had I feel like I need to tell you this.
Tyler:There wasn't there was a moment this year. This is the end of the semester. This what there wasn't a moment this semester that I didn't see you drunk or high, and that was it. That's all he said. And I think in that moment, I really, was felt like God smacked me in the back of the head, because it's interesting coming from him.
Tyler:You know? He he had always he had a he struggled a lot, with his faith, And and that's why I knew when he said, you know, I feel like I need to tell you this. I listened in closely because, you know, if he, you know, this is this is not normal for him. And so when he told me that, yeah, that's like I said, I felt like God was really speaking through him and giving me a gun smack on the back of the head because I really had made a mess of things. And I was trying to go on my own path, do my own thing, you know, and it wound up flat on my face.
Tyler:And then,
T.J.:did you guys did you converse about this, or was this just a one off statement and you stepped away? Did you defend yourself? Did you what was happening in that moment? Did he drop the bomb and just leave it in the room?
Tyler:No. He didn't he didn't just he didn't walk away, which that would have been kinda cool if he did. You know, for him, I would have been a little, you know, but, you know, he he said and he talks with me about it. He said, I don't know why I'd tell you this, but I just I really feel like I need to say it. I needed to say it, and, we got to talking about it just a little bit and, you know, and, you know, and I thanked him for it.
Tyler:And I you know, it was it would have been easy to be very defensive with that. But, again, like I said, I I recognize that, you know, for him to say something like that, it was really, you know, dire.
T.J.:So it it was who said it and how they said it.
Tyler:And how they said it.
T.J.:And where they said it was pretty Mhmm. It was at that moment where you could you could hear it for what it was.
Tyler:Mhmm. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so I, you know, I I I took his words and I, you know, I I personally, I I mold over them.
Tyler:I thought about them. I sat with them. And then, I was also dating Heather at the time, my wife, and she and I talked about it. And then I think she was the one that really that really helped me get on you know, recognize the path that God had set out for me because I was still really confused about what I was going to do. And and she said, Tyler, look.
Tyler:Of all the classes that you have, you know, you failed most of them except the ones that have to do with faith, you know. And so he said, those are the ones you're obviously interested in. Those are the ones you're great at.
T.J.:That's great.
Tyler:Which is which is funny. You know? But I was like, you're right. You know, I understand that. She said, look, you know, we can see it, and people have already told you all throughout life that, you know, you're you're called to be something.
Tyler:You're you're called to be a minister. You're you're called to follow in your grandfather's footsteps and, you know, I guess until that point, I'd really just, you know, I didn't want I didn't wanna be Cordell 2 point o. You know? You know, I I think that, that was that's something that kept me from doing that was, you know, everybody says you're gonna be just like your grandfather. It's like, well, I wanna be Tyler.
Tyler:You know, I don't wanna be Cordell 2.0. You know? And so a little that I know, you know, all these years from now after I graduate, I would be going through, what I went through. And, well, that's that's something that Tyler goes through. That's not, you know, that's not it can't be toward l two point o at that point.
Tyler:But
T.J.:So you really felt that pressure at a younger age, that that shadow, Even knowing the personality of your grandfather towards you, there was still that pressure. Wow. Well, you've certainly taken a different path than your grandfather or have had different experiences rather than Yeah.
Tyler:Than
T.J.:your grandfather. I spoke over you, please, Tyler. Go ahead.
Tyler:Oh, no. I I was I was agreeing.
T.J.:So it was, it was isn't it wonderful to have individuals, maybe even when it hurts a little bit, but affirm the reality within our own lives. But also, there's that encouragement of, like, you have gifts. Don't waste them. You know, utilize them. They're yours.
T.J.:They're unique to you, Tyler 1.0.
Tyler:Tyler 1.0. That's right. The original.
T.J.:So was the was the transformation or the change, was it pretty rapid, or was it something you you know, did it take months, a semester or 2 to kinda get back on track?
Tyler:I mean, it it it was it was one of those, slow burn sort of, transitions, because I had a lot of making up to do, you know, and, that was academic, but also with with, you know, bridges, you know, I may have tried, you know, or if I didn't burn bridges, I I certainly, you know, broke them a little bit. And so, there were this a lot of repair you know, repairing that needs to be done. Yeah.
T.J.:Well, without giving specifics, how how hard was that? That's that can be pretty humbling to go back and apologize and try to make amends.
Tyler:Well, you know, it was difficult, because I think it, you know, in part, it it takes owning owning what you've done, owning the mistakes you've made, which is never easy. And then, you know, I wouldn't say promising to do better. I don't I because,
T.J.:You weren't making those big leaps.
Tyler:I wasn't making big promises. No. But, you know, I think there was the, the the recognition that I I I do I now know, you know, I have this path set before me. I I recognize that this path is not my own, but God's path, and I will do my best to adhere to it. And that's that's many of the ways this you know, in an essence, that's what I said.
Tyler:You know?
T.J.:When you began your preparation for ministry from the educational aspect and you were exploring your call, Was it a call to the word and the sacraments? Did you think about, you know, I don't know, becoming a professor, an instructor, chaplaincy, youth ministry, or what did that look like for you, Tyler?
Tyler:Well, I, had the opportunity when I was about 16 or 17 to to preach a sermon, to get well you know, to give a sermon at in Bowling Green Church, And I really, really I thoroughly enjoyed that. And I and I thought back to that moment when I was sort of, you know, trying to fix everything that I had messed up, you know, and, you know, I thought about, you know, you know, just how comfortable I was there. Not that I wasn't nervous. I think nerves keep you humble, but, you know, recognize that it almost felt like I was at home there. And so, and then also thinking about all the times that somebody had said, you know, you're a lot like your grandfather and how you, you know, handle things and how you approach people and, you know, and and and not taking that as you're gonna be him, you know, but all but in the you we share these sort of aspects, these things that ministers would do.
Tyler:And so, really putting that into perspective, that's that's sort of what helped me recognize, you know, and all the affirmations from other people that I should be seeking the the call of the word and sacrament. But I did start as a youth minister. So
T.J.:Okay. Alright. Well, there's wonderful skills in that role of ministry for sure, and to do well in ministry. And what I mean by that is, have good service is to work with people. And what a better group of people than young people.
Tyler:Oh, oh, my. Yes. And and my my youth group, surprisingly, enough, I guess, you know, in many ways, the the wedding I was going to, the the night of December 10 or that was for my former youth from when I was a youth pastor. And so, you know, and so in many ways, I thank them, you know, thank God for that moment as a good pastor because I would have never known them. You know?
Tyler:So and
T.J.:Tyler, let's talk about, your relationship with God. And can you share with me some moments when you felt the very closeness of god, when you felt the most in tune? And have there been moments in your life where you you felt that relationship was a bit distant or strained?
Tyler:Certainly. You know, starting with, you know, those moments where, you know, I I felt distant, of course, that in that time when I was making all those interesting mistakes, you know, I I felt distant. I felt like I was trying to fill a hole that only God could. And so
T.J.:You you really allow that to resonate. You you you can remember consciously going, my the relationship of my youth or the relationship of the previous year with God is different than it is right now.
Tyler:Mhmm.
T.J.:Wow. Okay. You're you're a better person than me. Well, the reason I'm asking is because I I think in my own moments of, where I have felt distant, it's when I have thought very little of the relationship that I have with God.
Tyler:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there there have been those moments too.
Tyler:Okay. I'm just, you know, thinking of, you know, one of the most prominent moments that would have been the, you know, that time when I'd really made a mess of things, you know, and so I because I would I think that I really was. I was very distant from God at that point, trying to, you know, do my own thing, you know, which, again, I ended up flat on my face. So
T.J.:another humbling place
Tyler:to be. Another humbling place to be. And so, but there there have been quite a few moments where it's just, maybe I I think for me, it's when, you know, think maybe when things are also when they're going good and you get complacent, and there's like that that, sort of routine every day, do this, this, this, this, this, you know, it's Tuesday, I do this. Wednesday, I do this. You know, There's that, I think there's that that that habit or temptation really, to sort of become complacent.
Tyler:And that happens every so often with me, and I and I imagine with you too, like you said, you know, that it just it just becomes, you know, I'm trying to think of the word. Maybe you can help me with that word. But,
T.J.:Well, for me, I think one of the challenges that, I try to keep, in front of me is for my relationship not to become, my job, my vocation.
Tyler:Oh, yeah. Right.
T.J.:That they're already intertwined in ministry. And that that's quite a blessing. But I don't want the relationship to feel like, set hours or only through the motions and the functions of the church or the church life or administrative work or pastoral care, they're together and yet they're still there's that they're separated as well, because it's a it's a relationship of grace between god and me, and then it pours out through me in the work and service I've been called to. But I think for me, that that gets pretty blurry at times, and I don't want it to. I always try to keep that challenge in front of me and recognize it when it's there.
T.J.:I don't know. That was not the word that you were looking for, but that's
Tyler:You know, it was even better.
T.J.:Let's talk about those moments of very closeness when you feel most in tune and most aware of your relationship with God? And and how would you put that into words who to someone who may not be faith connected, and may not believe in Jesus Christ or the existence of a higher power? You know, how would you or what was that or what does that feel like and how would you articulate that to someone else who's not in the similar place?
Tyler:I can I can tell you from, you know, my time traveling to the seminary, some of my closest moments to God with God have been driving in a car, you know, because it I can turn I can turn everything off, and, you know, turn the radio off and and all of that and just, you know, just me and and the silence, which is what I was I was going for there, and, and just talk, and talk about the things that have been going on? You know? And I think that one of the things that, is is so awesome, in that is knowing that it's not, you know, God. It's not like you have to say these different things to me in order to talk to me. It's look.
Tyler:Talk to me. You know? Talk to me like I'm your best friend because I want to be, you know? And so, you know, you know, you know, that's how you would talk to somebody that you get to know. Right.
Tyler:And I think it was it was, yesterday, I think I was looking at a Facebook post that said, you know, you talk to the people, you talk longer, or you talk more to the people you know better. And so, there was, you know, that you know, it it was in reference to us talking to God. And so, really, it's those moments of, you know, just just talking to him, like, I would talk to my buddy that's sitting right next to me or, you know, anything like that. You know? It's not talking like we talk now.
T.J.:Yeah. I I like that, Tyler, that if I think about the relationships that we that we have and that we want to have, we have to be honest and authentic and real and and, incomplete, you know. Maybe we can't finish our thought or we stumble over our words or we lose or train the thought. That happens in in any given conversation.
Tyler:Right.
T.J.:Or even just you you've been talking about the car ride. There are times where there's just silence, a comfortable silence with a good friend, and it's not strange or awkward.
Tyler:Right. Right. It's it's like it's it's it's okay. You know? It's it's fine.
T.J.:Yeah.
Tyler:But I think, you know, let's be honest, in this world, you know, we don't get enough silence nowadays. So it's it's just appreciated all around.
T.J.:Do you miss those, long commutes? Because they do afford thinking time, don't they?
Tyler:Oh, they do. They do. And I don't really get those commutes now. My drive from my house to the church is about half a mile. And, I can do something in there, but not that quick.
Tyler:I can't do a lot of thinking. Right. But, you know, I think I I think the
T.J.:You can't even get one song in for half a month.
Tyler:Nope. Not even a song. And so it is sort of it's sort of having to adapt to that in many ways. It's that, you know, it's also a possible to do that in the room you're sitting in. I can do that in my office Mhmm.
Tyler:At the church or here at my at the manse, you know, and and then turn on a song, have a little worship service for myself. I mean, that's that's, you know, just me and God and have a worship service. You know, I I think that's either way, you know, whether you're out driving in a car or sitting in an office chair, it's, I think it's possible you just have that conversation with God, you know, and it it I don't think he I don't think God really, you know, is concerned about where you're sitting. Just that you're talking to him, I think, is what he's concerned with. You know?
Tyler:He wants he wants you to do that.
T.J.:We've been talking about, the importance of presence and relationships. You and I were talking off mic and how some of your hobbies and your interest have placed you in unique places to be in conversation with, different perspectives and points of view and walks of life. If you don't mind, let's talk about, like, what some of those settings were. And also, Tyler, if you don't mind, so we don't fall into the vernacular, when we say, like, Discord and maybe Right. Video games.
T.J.:We we slow down and kinda spell what those are for whoever is listening. Sure.
Tyler:Oh, yeah. I understand. I understand.
T.J.:So But it it was really engaging of how you've you've incorporated well, you you enjoy something. And and through that enjoyment of this particular thing, you've got to meet new people.
Tyler:Mhmm. So, I have multiple hobbies. Of course, if you could see on my camera right now that if I turn it to the right, just a little bit, there's a whole bunch of instruments. I play a lot of, guitar, learning bass guitar. Learning bass guitar.
Tyler:So that's one of the hobbies that I I have, but that, you know, that that's really more a person. That's just me. And if anybody else is watching, I'm going to be concerned because normally it's just me down there. And if anybody else is watching, I'm going to be concerned because normally it's just me down there in the basement learn you know, playing. So, but, you know, you know, there is there's that.
Tyler:But, you know, I also one of my things, I've grown up, playing video games, love them. I think that there's so much art and story behind them Mhmm. That it's it's just engaging in that way. So it's like playing your own, you know, a story. Mhmm.
Tyler:Right? And so, oftentimes, if it's not, you know, something that's, you know, a single player video game, I'm playing with other people, and that leaves leads me to being in groups such as, you know, it's like a discord group. It's like a a voice chat with a whole bunch of people in it, and we all have this one, like, server, you know, sort of area we can meet in on the Internet and talk. It does that did I explain it? I I
T.J.:I make sure.
Tyler:Well,
T.J.:does it have a visual piece, or is it just
Tyler:There is that option. You can have that visual if you want to. It's kinda you know, we would probably use Zoom other than that, you know, if we wanted to do that. But Discord is sort of like just having a big chat room
T.J.:Yeah.
Tyler:For voice chat, so you can talk over.
T.J.:And everybody's gathered on, maybe a particular server. What's drawn people to that server is is a certain gameplay or theme or and then, please, fill in the blank. Just to just kind of paint a picture for those who haven't dived into maybe like a Twitch or Discord, things like that that they may not be familiar with.
Tyler:And so so Discord is is an app that you can get on your phone or on the computer, that allows you to connect with a whole bunch of different people, with their usernames. You send, like, it's kinda like, you know, Facebook. You send friend requests back and forth, and once you have them as a friend, you can enter into phone calls. That's what their Discord calls is what they call them. It's like phone calls.
Tyler:And once you're in that Discord call, with them, you can just chat back and forth. It's like being in a phone call of many ways, but you're on a computer and you have headsets or using your microphones. And so you just chat back and forth, and it runs separately from if you're playing a video game. So if you're playing a video game, you can have Discord on the side as, like, your phone call that you're talking back and forth with your front people you're playing with. And so, that that, is probably it's really that's a that's a common thing to do, when you're playing video games on the computer is to use this discord.
Tyler:And, once you talk to or once you get everybody in a group together, you can continually call everybody in that group, at certain times whenever you're playing together. And you can also, chat together, like, with typing, like, texting. And so, it leads to a lot of interesting things because, you can do this, you know, just during the day, and and I'll have, you know, friends of mine that are on Discord, talking and texting, and then they'll they'll ask, you know, our they'll ask me to join in on the the conversation they're having, which is where it get you know, like I said, it gets interesting when, you're the only minister in the group half the time. And so, Yeah.
T.J.:Because the the talk can be it can be a bit of banter or video game talk, trash talk. But when you're playing with maybe sort of a similar group, the same people reoccurring, you end up you were telling me you can end up having conversations that may not have anything to do with gameplay, and this is what I found really intriguing.
Tyler:Oh, there it is often the case that we complete like, we'll just be playing, and then we'll we'll play the video game, but we're having this whole other conversation on the side. Right? You know? And it's, you know, you know, and so sometimes I I can't because I can't do more than one thing at a time. Sometimes I'll stop playing, and I'll I'll log off, and I'll just sit there and talk.
Tyler:But, you know, we'll have deep theological conversations and questions that people may have that they may not get answered otherwise. You know? And, oftentimes, you know, I'm I'm in chat I'm in the chat room, with a lot of guys who either are don't believe at all, don't believe in the the existence of God, they're atheist, or they're agnostic. And so they have all these questions concerning that, and they'd know. And I've told them many, many times, do not do not hesitate to ask me.
Tyler:You can talk to me about these things. I love love talking about them. Mhmm. You know, and they know, you know, be respectful about it. Don't, you know, don't.
Tyler:But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, even if even if it's just a, you know, a conversation over Discord, I feel like even then, God can work through that. So, you know, in many ways, I might be the only person that you know, the only the only time I hear words from the Bible, the only time I hear theology. And so to me, that's an amazing experience and and a and a humbling experience knowing that God has placed me in that position, doing something that that I, you know, I enjoy as a as a hobby to to unwind. Right? You know, to to sort of decompress.
T.J.:Yeah. You're not on the video game or Discord to evangelize. No.
Tyler:Not at all. You're on
T.J.:there, but from a natural, presence and getting to know there's been that I'll go ahead and say it, that safe space where people can raise questions and feel safe enough. And the reason I wanted you to share that, Tyler, is because, 1, you've taken something that you enjoy. There's your side of it. Your joy, it's a hobby, it's a way to unwind, way to connect with people and and have engaging conversations and dialogue. And then on the other end, if I wasn't faith connected but maybe I was seeking or curious or I didn't know any other Christians And if, you know, this Tyler guy seems pretty straight and fair and and there's that also that anonymity aspect of it as of, you know, from from another perspective as in, I can ask this, this person doesn't know where I live and if it seems like a stupid question, you know, they can't make fun of me or I can log off, you know, there's that sense of control of of, asking the question.
T.J.:I just think it's it's wonderful because you and I were talking about this the other night and I've had a couple days to think about, you know, what a wonderful opportunity to wrap, the sharing of your faith along with something that you've been enjoying for a long time. Yeah.
Tyler:Oh, yeah. And it's it's it's, like I said, it's never a dull moment. And and and, yeah, their conversations, they get they they they they they get deep theological, but there's always, like, you know, there's always this recognition that, you know, we're all here, to, you know, to have fun, and we're all here to, you know, to really just enjoy each other's company. And I think that really helps that along. Right.
Tyler:And so they know I'm not there in any sort of condiment con condemn condemning. There it is.
T.J.:Condemnation, judgmental.
Tyler:Yeah. There in any sort of condemnation, judgmental, aspect. You know? I'm I'm there I'm there to, you know, to be there with them and enjoy this moment with them. And and and it's spread it's brought me great joy and and, you know, and I've I've gotta give praise to God because a lot of my guys that I talk to, they'll I've they've asked me about the sermons that I've preached, which means that tells me they've been watching my sermon.
Tyler:So that was, that was that was something that, you know, I'm like, woah. Hold up. You said you watched my whole sermon. You know, and so that that was, you know, just something that was awesome for me to see. And, you know, really, it is, you know, an affirmation that God is really working through even through this avenue, of, of connection.
Tyler:You know?
T.J.:Yeah. Thank you for sharing that part, Tyler. And, I, because I I didn't want I don't want us to think that this is Tyler's Discord gospel hour because it's not that at all. Right. But it's in the natural context of where people feel comfortable enough and safe enough to ask curious questions about the faith and dialogue about it.
T.J.:And I just find that fascinating and great. And Oh, yeah. I I wanted to hear it again. So thank you
Tyler:for sharing. And it didn't get it wouldn't start that way. You know? It, you know, it it took a lot of time to get there. So Yeah.
Tyler:But, you know, it it it all starts, you know, the really and I you know, I was talking about this, alright. So I was telling you about this. It's really interesting, the people's reaction, when I'm playing a video game and I'm in their Discord chat with them, and they find out what I do. Right? You know?
Tyler:And they're like, wait a minute. But when did when did preachers start playing video games? I was like, well, there are a lot of them. You just don't you don't run into them every now and then.
T.J.:Right. Especially with the last two 2 including my generation. It's not like you you became a minister and then you start playing video games. They were in our hands when we were younger.
Tyler:Mhmm. So,
T.J.:I mean, we've grown up with video games. So it's not like I need an evangelistic tool. What can I find? Oh, I'm gonna take this method. No.
T.J.:It was something that you already had. It's something that I already enjoyed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:Alright. Let's talk about the church. And, Tyler, from your perspective and from your experience, what do you think we as a community of faith is getting right? And what do you think and where do you think we have areas for improvement?
Tyler:Well, as a church, are you are you you speaking, as denominationally our church, the common Presbyterian Church? I I wanna clear just clarification there.
T.J.:Sure. We can do Tyler, we can do both. We can talk about the church universal, and or we can talk about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. I'm always intrigued with this question. I enjoy people's insight because it makes me think deeper and reflect more Yeah.
T.J.:On the community of faith that you and I are a part of.
Tyler:Okay. Well, you know, one of the big things that I can see with the the Church Universal, but also the Cumberland Presbyterian Church is, our our outreach outside of, you know, our mission work is except, you know, great. Because we see a lot of growth. There's a lot of growth in a lot of places. And so to me, that's, that's a wonderful thing to see.
Tyler:But at the same time, and I was gonna this is where I was going. We can also see whether it's a decline. Unfortunately, that's the thing is you see where there's growth, but it also highlights where the decline is too. And so we know there's a decline, and it's a decline. It's quite close to home.
Tyler:And so to me, I think one of the things that, we are, in dating and improving, need to improve is, our relation in our own home, you know, you know, in our own, United States, which is easier said than done. I mean, there's a lot of a lot of difficulty, that that arises from, you know, being a church within the United States. And that goes for any denomination, you know, not just ours. Mhmm. And so how we address and how we adapt to the world, and, you know, I think that that matters, because, you know, you think about all of the, you know, the the gospel writers, you think about Paul, you think about they they are very aware of the world they live in.
Tyler:They know the way the world works with them, and they, you know, and they know how to work within that. And sometimes I feel like we don't. I feel like we I feel like we're we're we're here, you know, way off on the left, you know, left, right, whatever, you know, side and then but the world's, you know, way over here, where do we find that balance? Right. Like, we don't want to become the world.
Tyler:You know, I you know, I don't get me wrong. That's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is how we how we connect with and how we minister to the world has to evolve along with the world. And so in many in many cases, that brings back up what I, you know, what I do just by, you know, naturally, you know, through my love of video games, that has become a place of ministry. And so that would be sort of the adaptation is that that happens in our world nowadays is, you know, and so I guess does that make sense?
Tyler:Am I am I am I making sense here?
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Well, to to be intentional and, again, I'm gonna go back to some of the things you've been hitting on is Yes. The the power of presence and the importance of relationships.
Tyler:Right.
T.J.:You know, these these are things that in our best moments, we as Christians, as the community of faith, we can do really, really well. Mhmm. And and at the same time, this is also and I don't wanna shade your opinion. I think this is also areas for improvement as well. We can be more intentional.
T.J.:We can we we can be, individuals where people feel, comfortable enough to throw their questions, or their anger or whatever it may be, and and be the people of grace.
Tyler:Right. Right. One of the things I I've heard pretty recently, somebody had said this, I I wish I could credit them. I just thought I don't remember who said it, but somebody said that, the phrase, this is the way things have always been, is the number one killer of the church. And so it is.
Tyler:You know, I get it. You know, I understand that, you know, because the world continues on. The church has to learn how to to walk within it too, and and how to connect in those relationships.
T.J.:Yeah. I've never thought about that before, but that could be an incomplete sentence to quote. This is the way that it has always been, however
Tyler:However. But. But.
T.J.:You know, we can change. We can adjust. Right. We we can adapt. We yeah.
T.J.:I mean, it's a in we can make it an incomplete sentence, not with the period so early. That is what I'm trying to say.
Tyler:And I think that's really what Jesus talks about a lot when he talks about, you know, not putting, new wine or a new wine and old, wine skins. You know, that's the, the sort of the same thing is, you know, you know, you may you bring out you bring about new wineskins to put new wine in, and that's sort of the, I guess, the logic behind there. Now I could be off. You could tell me that if you want to, but it seems it seems like where he's going with that, in many ways, you know, that there's just this this need, that that that really prevails in the church to understand the world that we exist in and work within it and find the ways that are best to work within it. And that doesn't always look the same from decade to decade.
T.J.:Yeah. Well, maybe, you know, this question attaches to kind of what we're talking about. Like, your your ideas, your hopes, your dreams for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church looking into the future. What would those be? What what do you dream for us?
T.J.:What what abilities what gifts do we have to give this world that we live in?
Tyler:Well, my my my main hope, main prayer for the denomination, itself is is that it remains true to who it is. You know, I think that oftentimes, you know, we, you know, circumstances make us wanna go one way or the other. And I I, for 1, believe that when we say we're a denomination of mental theology, I believe it. You know, I think that we should hold to that in many ways. But, you know, that's my hope is that the CP church remains true to who it is, you know, and or the Cumberland First during church.
Tyler:Excuse me. And, but I I also, you know, you know, my my dream is that, you know, as as we as we continue to sort of figure ourselves out, I would say that that we we are intentional. Like, we've talked about, we are intentional in becoming, better at, at being involved in the world, being relevant to the world, honestly Mhmm. In many ways.
T.J.:Have you seen a recent movie that has, spoken to your faith?
Tyler:Have Have I seen a recent movie?
T.J.:Yeah. Are you a big movie or,
Tyler:I'm really unfortunately, I'm not. I don't I don't watch a lot of, movies, but, I mean, of the movies, of course, the one I remember, you know, this is the, you know, this is old, you know, a little bit older, but, you know, facing the Giants, all those movies, I love those, especially the, you know, the the field, you know, the field scene where he's crawling blindfolded and, you know, he thinks he's at the halfway mark and he's gone all the way across the the field. I think that was a powerful moment too. But
T.J.:Well, how about books? You've had seminary behind you for a little while. Now you can read
Tyler:And there's no due date.
T.J.:Yes. Yeah. We should all we should always be reading, as church leaders, lay or ordained, but there's no requirement now with a due date. Right. So Right.
T.J.:What what are you reading?
Tyler:Well, I I think, I've always been a huge fan of CS Lewis. And if you, if you've ever read it, The Problem of Pain has been a really a really, appropriate, almost, you know, timely, read, because it it really talks about, you know, why pain exists, you know, and or why why we have pain and why why we go through it. Mhmm. And and so it it's been one of those things that I would like to do a study on it sometime, bible study. But I think it would be it would be huge.
Tyler:But, you know, any that book, would be 1, taking another, another I guess, another book would be, the cost of discipleship, by Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
T.J.:Yeah.
Tyler:That's one of my favorites. I have to read it over and over again.
T.J.:Yeah. He's he's a disciple on another level, isn't he?
Tyler:Absolutely. I mean, I couldn't I couldn't imagine Yeah. Doing what he did, you know, just, but, you know, he was he was a voice, and and and that spoke out regardless of what what would befall him. Mhmm. In many ways, that's he followed exactly almost in the footsteps of Jesus.
Tyler:You know, that Jesus called out the things that were wrong. You know, Jesus said, you know, you know, he spoke what needed to be spoken. And in the main you know, as a disciple, you know, of of Christ, Diedrich Bonhoeffer was one of those that followed that to the t, I I would say. If not, you know, to the t, almost to the t.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. His faith was surely in action, wasn't it?
Tyler:Right. Right.
T.J.:In writing and in action. Yeah.
Tyler:Yeah. And and it makes sense that he writes the the, you know, the cost the cost of discipleship because he knew the cost and he he would he would end up he would end up paying that cost. Yeah. So
T.J.:Tyler, thank you very much for your time. I've enjoyed it thoroughly. The experiences that you've had here lately have been certainly a huge mountain to climb and rebuilding physically and spiritually, not just you, but the community that you're a part of. I envy your faith and your resoluteness of not becoming overcome by discouragement. And so I'm very gracious that you're willing to come on, this podcast and talk about it so openly and share your faith and the rawness and and the joys.
T.J.:And, I've I've made a new friend, Tyler.
Tyler:Well, thank you.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to this episode of The Cumberland Road. Tyler mentioned CS Lewis in our conversation, and so I close with the last chapter, the last words of Lewis' book, Mere Christianity. Give up yourself and you will find your real self. Lose your life and you will save it. Submit to death. Death of your ambitions and favorite wishes every day and death of your whole body in the end, submit with every fiber of your being and you will find eternal life. Keep back nothing. Nothing that you have not given away will ever be yours, really. Nothing in you that has not died will ever be raised from the dead. Look for yourself and you will find in the long run only hatred and loneliness, despair, rage, ruin, and decay. But look for Christ, and you will find him, and with him, everything else thrown in.
