Vernon Sansom - The Will To Walk Through
To the Cumberland Road. I am TJ Malinoski. In this episode, I am in conversation with Vernon Sansom. I've had the privilege to get to know Vernon over the last year or so in serving on different boards and committees. I was first acquainted with him as he served as the engrossing clerk of the general assembly of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Vernon is retired from full time ministry, but you wouldn't know it by his work schedule. Currently, he is the director of operations at Oak Ridge Memorial Park in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. As we talked, I learned that Vernon is living an interesting life with interesting hobbies and a genuine interest for people's well-being. From being in a cover band to riding motorcycles to volunteering as a chaplain, Vernon has some great stories to tell. Enjoy this conversation with Vernon Sansom.
T. J.:Vernon, you've been a minister in Tennessee and Texas. You have been a chaplain in different areas. You've been a presbytery stated clerk. You've been the general assembly engrossing clerk for the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination. You are the director of operations at Oak Ridge Memorial Park in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. And those are just the vocations that I know of that you have served in and worked in. But thinking back out of all the different jobs and vocations and callings that you have had, what's one story or moment that rises to the top that pertains to your Christian faith?
Vernon:Well, I really think it could be in the pastorate and really all areas of it. But I think I'm most effective like when there's a death or some kind of a tragedy in a family. That's why I think I do well as a police chaplain even because I can go into a situation. I can be empathetic, but I also keep myself distance away from it so I can I won't go to pieces, you know?
T. J.:Yeah.
Vernon:It's so easy when you have a relationship with people in a pastor, you get so involved in their lives that when a death happens or or some tragedy happens, it's almost like it's happening in your own family and it'd be very easy to get where where you get so emotionally involved that that you're not any use. And I found that I could do that and that really is, I think, one of my gifts that I brought into the ministry. And that's always been the most rewarding part of my life. It might sound funny as a police chaplain that I can go and make a death call at 03:00 in the morning to just a complete stranger and walk away feeling good about it. I can and not everybody can do that.
Vernon:So I guess the service part of ministry is where I feel like I really shine. And so it's this apostrophe that gets me. The other jobs I've done, the dated clerk, the engrossing clerk, I get satisfaction out of those but that's just because I was able to organize them and hopefully made them a little better. But that wasn't a spiritual journey for me, that was work. I did enjoy it.
Vernon:I'm very grateful to the denomination for allowing me to serve in a lot of different areas.
T. J.:There's something about entering into somebody else's life when they are maybe at their most vulnerable, or at a place where they are at a loss. And to have somebody enter in into that sphere, and to provide comfort, or just a presence, or encouraging words, I can see where that would be rewarding for the for you, the giver. Also exhausting. As you know, I mean, in some situations, I would imagine as a police chaplain, but also as a pastor, there can be chaos abound and all around you and to be able to be pinpoint focused on an individual or a couple or a family and give them your undivided attention, genuine undivided attention. And I and knowing you a little bit, seeing yourself as a representative of God.
T. J.:There's something fulfilling in that.
Vernon:There is and there's one thing that I learned early on that helped me get through that and helps me to be effective in those roles is that's you don't have to always say something. One of the best gifts you can give people is just your presence. I go back to the story of Job, you know, three friends. They did a great job as long as they sat there with him for quiet. They got in trouble when they opened their mouth, you know.
Vernon:And a lot of preachers can get in trouble when they open their mouths.
T. J.:Yeah, a lot of them were telling Job how to feel and what to do. I don't know if he asked any of that.
Vernon:No, and that's you you don't really know how they feel. You can't really describe it even if you've gone through a similar situation. You don't know how they feel, and I always thought my job was be there with them, to be a presence for Christ for them, and to let them know that everything's gonna be okay, you know, and we'll get through it. And I was always the calm one. I also would go a lot of times like it's a hospital visitation after a surgery when the doctor would come out to the family, I would listen.
Vernon:Of course, I trained as an EMTA, so I was just not enough medical knowledge to be dangerous, but I wouldn't listen. And when they got to talk to the doctor, times they have it wrong. And I was able to say, well, no, this is what they said, you know, and I always felt good about that. And people seem to appreciate that, you know. I was calm.
Vernon:I wouldn't let the emotions get to it. And I have to put that all on Christ. One time I was getting ready to do a death notification with the sergeants and he said, how do you get ready for that? And I said well if my wife is not at work and she's awake because she worked nights, I'd always call her and say I'm getting ready to go on a call of some kind, pray for me. I said then I would say a prayer and then I'd wait to let the Holy Spirit take care of it from there, know, I didn't know exactly where I was going.
Vernon:It's not canned. And, but I always would ask the officer, because they like to be in charge, says, want me to handle it or you want me to just be there as a presence? And most of would always say, oh, you handle it, know. In this case, well I don't know, I've never done one. He'd been an officer for twelve, thirteen years and I couldn't believe he had dodged that bullet.
Vernon:And so we're riding to the house right at that time in the car and he says, can we pray? And so we stopped on the side of the road and I said, okay, do you want to pray or you want me to pray? Oh, you pray. It's okay. So we bowed, we prayed, and we heard a couple cars drive by us.
Vernon:They were just about a block away from the house we were going to, and we got done. He said, I guess when we get back to the station two citizens are gonna call and say we just saw two police officers sleeping on the side of the road. But I'm never afraid to let my faith show, but I don't drum it into people. I don't push it on people. Very ecumenical, especially if you're doing like the police chaplaincy, you've got to be able to speak all the different religious languages and respect everyone's faith and just deal with from there.
Vernon:But anyway, that's kind of what I enjoy doing.
T. J.:How did you discover this gift of the ability to be able to be a presence for people in a time of crisis, in a time of trauma?
Vernon:I don't know if I want tell this story or not.
T. J.:There is a story then.
Vernon:It is a story. It is a story. Was on staff at Elmira Chapel. I hadn't had my bachelor's degree. I wasn't even a candidate for ministry at this point.
Vernon:And I was getting ready to have a procedure done. I was very nervous about medical and I had to be at the doctor at a certain time. My senior pastor was out of town. All the other staff members I couldn't get ahold of him and I was put in contact with a son of one of our members who seemed to kill himself because his wife just left him. And, you know, I didn't know what to do, you know.
Vernon:I didn't have the presence at that time to, you know, call some authority and say, hey, y'all need to stop him. But I talked to you on the phone. And he says, got to come over here. I'm saying, man, I don't think I want to do that. But okay.
Vernon:And so I said, well, now you say you're going to kill yourself. You know how you're to kill yourself? Yeah, I got a gun. Okay, you got bullets? I got bullets.
Vernon:I said, you're really going do it? I'm going to do it. I said, I don't know if I want to be there with a gun in the house. Tell you what I'll do. I will come over there.
Vernon:But I want to hear you take with the phone, I want to hear you take the bullets out of the gun. I want to hear you drop them into a drawer and open another drawer. Want you to put the gun in that one and then I'll come over there. And like a fool, I did. And we got through it and got him the help he needed.
Vernon:Everything worked out. By that time I went to the medical to the doctor and, you know, they're gonna put me in twilight sleep. I said, quit, give me the drugs, give me the drugs. Because I was a nervous wreck, But I found the presence because I didn't guide this guy in any way. I just listened and sat with him and he worked through it, you know.
Vernon:Lord asked me if he would come to church. We didn't because his wife took his car and we called it her. And so that's how I was in that situation. So anyway, that was my first taste of it. And then, I don't know, just different times things came up, as they do in congregations.
Vernon:And it just just kind of developed that way.
T. J.:Well, how you discovered your gift certainly was, I mean, that was quite a trial for the for the man, but also for you. So did he follow through? Could you actually hear the ejection?
Vernon:Yeah, I wouldn't the I wouldn't go to the house by hadn't heard the bullets go down there and, and they were in a different room for where we were gonna be, you know, I didn't know what to do. Was stupid. Shouldn't have done that. And I learned that quickly. Learned how I should have handled a situation like that.
Vernon:But now as a chaplain, I have been trained and they do call me to be in situations like that. But, never in a situation where there's weapon.
T. J.:Vernon Vernon, did you grow up in the church, you know, as many people do and did in The United States? It was that something that you and your family did as you were a child? Let let's let's live there for a little bit. Those Sure. Those early years.
Vernon:I'm I'm one of those guys that I can truly not remember a time when I didn't know Jesus, even as a little child. Okay? And it'd been easier to write services like that if I've been a hoodlummer or a druggie or something like that or had a terrible childhood, I did my childhood was is like one of the 50 sitcoms. All of those best things to be were just wasn't as funny, you know.
T. J.:Vernon, there's still time if you want to be a criminal or a drug dealer or drug addict, you still have time.
Vernon:With my back and my hips, can't run fast enough. But had both, you know, both regional parents, two children in the family. I was the oldest. And my parents brought me up in the church. Mother was raised in the Presbyterian church up north in Pennsylvania.
Vernon:Dad grew up of course Southern Baptist but he he quit going to Baptist church. He's in a small town of Hearne. He always said he quit going to the Baptist church because they wouldn't let the boys swim at the same time as the girls. Don't know if that's true, but that's what he always said.
T. J.:Sounds like a good reason. Yeah.
Vernon:And, in the town mom came down, they got married and heard and they didn't have a Presbyterian church, had a Methodist. So we first were going to Methodist church, baptized as an infant in the Methodist church, but we were always at church. My parents, my dad had a very strong but quiet faith and so from him I learned how to live a Christian life in real practical ways. And from mother, I learned to appreciate the reformed Presbyterian polity and theology from mom. My parents led youth groups from the time I was in junior high school until the time my sister was five years younger than me graduated from high school.
Vernon:Tina and I, before we got married, after we left school, we both led junior high youth groups. And yeah, got married when we got transferred to Odessa. I kind of fell away from the church because we couldn't find a church like the one I grew up in. It was a large southern Presbyterian church, it acted like a small one. All the folks knew me, was a big youth group, the folks knew me and I knew their names a lot like aunts and uncles, so it was an awesome place to be and I really grew to appreciate the church and they pushed me.
Vernon:I was the youngest deacon at that church they'd ever had And then like I said, we were leading youth group. Was in the late early 20s when we were doing that. And so yeah, it was a Christian family and like I said, I don't know a time when I didn't know Jesus in a very personal way.
T. J.:And your first career as you were coming up in high school, entering college, what did you want to be?
Vernon:Well, wanted to be a musician. Wanted to be a rock star.
T. J.:Can you play any I
Vernon:played lead guitar in a bunch of bands and high school and disciplined in college. And I was in the first music major and all that was doing was training me to teach and I didn't want to teach. And so I changed my major to business major with a music minor and then I switched to business management and then I quit school. And then after I'd gone to work at Elmira Chapel and felt the call to ministry, had to finish up my bachelor's degree and go to seminary. So I went to Bethel for one year and, ended up being with a major in religion with a minor in business.
Vernon:All right. And a whole lot of music electives, you know. So
T. J.:Yeah, let's talk about the music. So, you were in a couple bands. What kind of music did you play?
Vernon:Oh, classic rock and blues. At the time it wasn't classic. It was the current rock. Later on my boys and I, when we were here at Oak Ridge Pastor and I, and we started in Fort Worth, my boys and I, along with one of the elders that grew up in in Oak Ridge 1st Cumberland, he was our bass player. We we had a classic rock and blues band and we would play sounds funny for a minister to say, we play clubs every Friday and Saturday night and we played church on Sunday.
Vernon:By the time Sunday came around we were warmed up and it was really interesting. It was a selfish thing because I really enjoyed playing. But when I played in these places everybody knew I was a minister in these clubs and I would talk to people that probably most ministers didn't have an opportunity to do. And so yeah, use it. Everything I do I try to use some form of ministry, I guess, and just letting people know about Christ in some way, if not verbally and through actions and stuff.
T. J.:What do you enjoy playing, in terms of not just the guitar, but, music wise, classic rock? Is there a band that you is there a particular song that you like?
Vernon:Well, was always big on the garage top bands. Grand Funk Railroad, I guess is one of my favorites. The Who, of course. Cheap Trick was always a fun band to watch. And it really went to all gambits of rock.
Vernon:And I even grew a really good appreciation for some of the classic music players, you know, Von Melon and Buddy Guy, just a whole lot of the real bluesmen. Yeah. BB King, one of the first concerts Tina and I went to when we were dating was to see BB King and that was before he got really well known with all people. You know, it was predominantly a black concert and we were there, you know, and loved it. It was just so awesome.
Vernon:So yeah, I'm pretty open to that.
T. J.:Do you sing as well?
Vernon:In early days, I did not because I'm so good, but because no one else wanted to sing with the band with my boys. My oldest son was the main singer. Okay. And I just sang back up and there were a few songs I sang, sang lead on, sang some lead on the bad company and, and grand funk songs. Anyway, yeah.
T. J.:Did you have long hair back when you were a kid?
Vernon:You know, it's funny thing as a kid, our school, we had dress code and we couldn't let you get long and my parents wouldn't allow me to. And as a joke one time my mother had a wig, she put it on me. I looked in the mirror, I looked just like my aunt Elmer.
T. J.:That would probably be enough to dissuade you from having long hair.
Vernon:In college, I had longer hair. It's kinda down down low my ears and and, down my shoulder, but I never got real real crazy with it.
T. J.:What message would you have for somebody who is listening to this podcast or or is early in their in their faith, their Christian faith, and and hear here, Vernon, here, this minister who plays in rock bands and is a minister and rides a motorcycle and and, you know, all all these various things. Yeah. A lot of times people think of the Christian faith is straight and narrow. You know, you you look a certain way, you look a certain part, you act a certain way, you even dress a certain way, especially for Protestant ministers. I would say that you break that mold.
T. J.:But what would you say to someone who's like, well, wait, no, I can't. I can't enjoy Led Zeppelin and be a Christian.
Vernon:Well, I was the musician. I was motorcycle rider. I was a father, a husband, before God called me into ministry. And he called me as I was. And the things that I felt like I needed to change, I did.
Vernon:But, you know, I used those things to whether I'm riding a motorcycle, whether I was playing in bands, people knew my faith. I never wanted to make God ashamed of me, you know. And so I would live my life that way and through my music, like I said, I met people that most ministries didn't have time to be with. On a motorcycle. I'm a chaplain for a law enforcement motorcycle group and so I use my faith there.
Vernon:And even on secular rides, know, I always ask, hey, if we're getting ready to take off, can we have a prayer first? You know, I'd be glad to offer one. Because it's a place you really need when you go to motor car. And so, you know, I'm not overly showy with my religion, you know, as you see me, as you have seen me and to be working on it, that's me. I'm not much different in the pulpit.
Vernon:So, you know, I just thought that God called me that way. He called me was a sales and sales management for inner ministry. So I've done a lot of secular work, been around a lot of people, been around a lot of jokes and talks and things like that. And I just don't let my life be compromised and I won't ever do anything that would make the church members ashamed of me.
T. J.:It's pretty easy as a minister, and probably as a Christian as general, as you get deeper into your faith, the people that you're around will share the same or very similar beliefs, and and you almost become in a bubble where you come very isolated, in in interactions with people who may not be faith connected at all or maybe of another religion. And that's why I was curious in asking you that question is being able to to be comfortable and also put yourself in places to where you get to be your self and also share your faith in ways that are genuine and comfortable for you.
Vernon:I find that very easy. Matter of fact, I probably enjoy hanging out with just what you might call just normal people more than I do people who are like ministers and things like that. One of the things I did to the bands we had here, we played a lot of gigs with this one other local band and even had articles in the newspaper written about the two bands because we had two brothers of the father in our band and we, you know, this other band had two brothers and the drummer was a neat lady she's passed down but she was just a really neat lady who had been raised in the PCA but she was gay and she got kicked out of the church basically and wasn't comfortable with it and of course she knew I was a minister and we would talk and we would talk and she started introducing me to her friends and this was here at Oak Ridge and so I had a little circle of gay women, lesbians, that would call me when they needed to go to. They knew my stance on homosexuality. It's the same stance that our denomination has officially, that homosexuality is not a pleasing lifestyle to God and it's a sinful lifestyle And they knew that but they could trust me.
Vernon:And I think that that's very important. And I also learned really on this little story about how people, if you don't watch out, they can rub off on you. I learned this, I guess I was probably 15 years old, and I was hanging out with one of my double first cousins and a couple of his friends, and we were talking like satyrs. I know we probably make satyrs blush, and all weekend long and I really didn't see my parents much and we're driving back from Beaumont to San Antonio and I'm in the backseat. Dad's trying to make me aware of traffic because I'm starting to learn to drive and that kind of bit and he said, hey can I move over?
Vernon:So, that damn Ford goes by, I said, oh, wow. And my sister laughed and my mom's ears turned red and dad just glanced at me in the rearview mirror and we sat almost all the way from Beaumont to San Antonio in solids, you know. One word. For one word. For one word.
Vernon:And, and, know, I learned really quick, you know, you really got to be careful who you hang out with him. You got to make sure that you're the influence, not them.
T. J.:And
Vernon:so that's kind of how I live.
T. J.:Well, who's rubbing off on who in this conversation? I don't know. Alright. You were telling me about your calling in the ministry wasn't immediate. So you were an adult, finished up school, married.
T. J.:Kinda walk me through that that part of your journey.
Vernon:Okay, well
T. J.:Because what's wrong with just being a Christian and serving in the local church?
Vernon:Well, I tried that. I tried that. I got, well, I got transferred to Longview, Texas by a company I went to work for. I went to work for the same company my dad was with, as a paint salesman, factory rep. And I had my choice of living in either Lufkin, Tyler or Longview.
Vernon:And so I'm with my boss first week of work, we're trying to find where I'm going to live and we just had our first child. And so Tina and our baby were doing Odessa and we're going through these and I really like Lufkin, but it was a small German town and I really liked it, but really couldn't find the right place to live and it was a little bit small for Tina. We went to Todder, man I really liked Tyler's. It had everything we could want but I couldn't, didn't find the place I wanted to be at. And so we went to Longview and everything clicked.
Vernon:I really liked Longview. Found a place we wanted to be right away and so we moved. Okay, well I had a paint customer there in Longview and he knew my parents from some company promotional things that he knew I was Presbyterian, he was Church of Christ, and I was in the store one day when a lady that he knew went to Elmira Chapel, was in the store there and he introduced me and it was a nice visit. Next thing I know he had sick Bill Rollins who was the pastor at that time on me. He came and knocked on our door at dinnertime and came in and talked and I liked him right away.
Vernon:And so we went and visited the church. I really liked the church. They getting ready to have a big growth spurt of young people and they were young couples our age there with little children and we joined and felt really at home. Tina and I started working with the junior high youth group and we were having a good time. And then we had our second child, well we had our second child right as I went to work for the church, And it was just tough on Tina, you know, with the little kids.
Vernon:So she kind of dropped out and I was doing the youth work by myself.
T. J.:Let me interrupt me interrupt you at this point. So you began you become well, first of all, let me go back a little bit. It was a church Christ that introduced you or made it happen that you got introduced to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Vernon:Yeah. Yeah.
T. J.:Okay. That's pretty cool. That's a new one on me. That's one I hadn't heard before. So thank you, Church Christ, for Vernon, for that man that made the connection.
T. J.:And you said that you were working at Elmira Chapel. It's a Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Longview, and you were on staff. Now were you still doing your paint business, working for the paint No,
Vernon:we were getting ready to go on a retreat and I was supposed be in his leadership. Bill was going to be there, but he wouldn't tell me what he wanted to do. And I was right at that point because I was still traveling and didn't feel like I had enough time to really give it to the youth group. I really was getting ready to resign, and he wouldn't tell me what part of the retreat I was supposed to do. He said, Oh, you'll go when the time comes.
Vernon:I'm just saying, Oh, I don't work that way. But we went on this retreat and I just felt this peace about it. Everything worked out. We worked so well together. Everything really worked out well.
Vernon:I felt called to ministry earlier in life and was able to pass it off by working in the church and doing, you know, all the things that church members do and being real active. I said, that's enough. But at that point, it just really felt like, man, this is something we're doing. Right before that retreat, he did a crazy thing. We were in the office and he said we're getting rid of hiring staff person.
Vernon:We've never had a staff person here before and I want you to see the job description. He gave me this legal sized paper, single spaced, double sided, just full of all this stuff and I read it real quickly and I said, that's crazy. We're not gonna pay this guy. He told me, I said, that's even more stupid. And I exactly said, anyone who take a job like this would be stupid.
Vernon:And it was quiet and I thought well it's time to leave. All of she said have you ever thought about doing something like this? Do I look stupid? But we started after that retreat I just played on my mind so much and I was taking such a big cut in sorry if I did something like that. But we started, hey, know, if we stop this, don't do that, don't do this, we might be able to make it.
Vernon:And we were really wrong. We really made way less than what I needed to, but God showed us the way. I ended up I was the executive assistant to the pastor. I mean, I was a DRE, the youth leader, did ministerial things when Bill wasn't aware of. I guess if the janitor didn't show up, I expected to do the floors, you know.
Vernon:But they added on that, to give me some more blame, I became the church treasurer and purchasing agent. And I worked myself to death at that job, but I really enjoyed it. The bad thing was I was working so hard I didn't kind of form a family. And so we finally decided to go back to school, sold everything, moved to Mackenzie, and I had time to be a father and husband again, almost full time. And that's where I really began to get my priorities straight on what God wanted me to do and what I needed to do for my family.
Vernon:It was a terrible year financially, but it was an awesome year spiritually and a growth for the family. By that time we had three children, you know.
T. J.:Oh, wow. I was about to ask you. So you you made this you and Tina made this sacrifice for you to be on staff at Elmira Chapel in Longview. And, you know, a pay cut. You had two small children, then three
Vernon:This small
T. J.:is like the exact opposite in the way that people are raised or taught how to make decisions or encouraged how to make decisions. You are going against the grain to ultimately respond to a call to ministry. On the outside looking in, it looks it doesn't look right.
Vernon:It was terrible. I fought it all the way. I wanted to do some correspondence course to finish up my bachelor's degree and even do seminary because we had some bland there. We enjoyed where we were. And my committee on the Maritia wouldn't allow me.
Vernon:They said, No, you've to go to seminary.
T. J.:Yeah. So on top of that, you move from because I interrupted you again.
Vernon:That's
T. J.:right. You move from Longview, Texas to McKenzie, Tennessee, Bethel College, now Bethel University. So not only do you take a pay cut, serve at a church, do all these practical and even theological stuff within the local church, then you pick up your family, your young family and relocate. I need to meet your wife. She must be as calm as you are.
Vernon:Actually, she was raised Jewish. She's made a very good covenant Presbyterian. When we got to Mackenzie, one week after we got there, my daughter turned one. Wow. And my oldest son started kindergarten in Mackenzie.
Vernon:So that's how young our family was. And, being in a small town like that, it didn't pay for because the child childcare, Tina couldn't work, you know, and so I just make a part time salary. But the Presbytery bought my books and Bethel gave me a full ride. All I was really responsible for was my living expenses. God was really good.
Vernon:There was one farmer that Bob Rutledge went to, had never given anything to the college before. Said, hey, there's a young ministerial student that needs help. And he got a scholarship from me from this guy, you know. Wow. And so everything just worked together.
Vernon:I, you know, it wasn't me. I went kicking and screaming but God just kept opening doors and gave me the will to walk through.
T. J.:And you were allowed to be a student and a father and a husband. Because if you had stayed at Elmira, well, who knows what it would have looked like. Yeah. Yeah. Well, how long did it take you?
T. J.:Let me rephrase my question before I finish it. How long did you live in Mackenzie?
Vernon:We were there just one year.
T. J.:That's all you needed.
Vernon:I've graduated and I thought about maybe commuting to Memphis, but I didn't really want to. Doctor. Bill Ingram came to the office there. I'd met him once or twice before. He was the moderator of Bolivar Cumberland Presbyterian Church and he went to see Bob Prosser who was my boss and they called me down to Bob's office and Bill introduced himself to me and I said well I've met you before and you don't remember me and we talked and anyway he said hey I've got to preach I've been preaching there at Bolivar but I got to go to another church this coming Sunday.
Vernon:Will you fill in for me? I said, sure be glad to, you know, and he told me a little bit and he said, by the way this is a trial sermon. And that was a church I really wanted to try to get ahold of him because that was that church at that time was known to be just an awesome place for student pastors. And so I commuted the 60 miles to seminary from Bolivar. Okay.
Vernon:And they were such a great congregation for my family and me. We had a mantle and everything. I didn't talk, I was making $1,000 a month and all I had to do was pay for utilities, you know, so it was a good life.
T. J.:I just drove through Bolivar. Think it was last week, maybe the week before. It looks the same.
Vernon:I'm sure it does. Last time I went through there, hadn't changed. The church is not doing very well. But we had two building programs while I was there. We built a fellowship hall, we built parking lots, we were having a good time there.
Vernon:Was a fun church to be at.
T. J.:So at this point in your faith journey, you you had a path and a plan pretty well carved out. So you're both feet in as a student, and then serving as a stated supply in a Cumberland Presbyterian church not far outside of Memphis. You had the future before you.
Vernon:Yeah. It was a tough tough time too. My senior year in seminary my mother died. She got sick. She'd come up to Mackenzie for my graduation and she got sick at that point and took two and a half years she was ill and passed while I was at seminary.
Vernon:And so I was really kind of really wanting to get back to Texas and we were getting out of the clear, the shallow church contacted me and we went down there to do a trial sermon and came back to Bolivar with a call They gave me the call at that point before we left town and we moved to Shiloh and there I was back in Texas.
T. J.:How long were you at the Shiloh church? And also give for those that are listening, Shiloh is outside of Dallas.
Vernon:Dallas is the town is actually it's in Ovilo, but it's called Mithlothian because that's zip code for that. But Old Villa is a little bit small town South of Dallas. A neat little place. It's where LC Waddle grew up. He was a well known pastor at Bethel and a matter of fact I pastored his three sisters when I was at But you know we were at Shiloh for three and a half years and I should have stayed longer but I got called to the Fort Worth Church Trinity and I was at Trinity for five years and that was a kind of a troubled ministry.
Vernon:It started after I got there, didn't know I was walking into hornet's nest and kind of got caught off guard on that but that's also where Tina went back to school and she became a nurse. She got her bachelor's degree for nursing and so we were there for five years and then I went to came up here to Oak Ridge Church and I was Oak Ridge for twelve years. I was the second longest pastor that they've had in their history. Larry Blateburn who's there now is getting ready to pass me up I guess before long but and we were at Oak Ridge for twelve years and I really kind of thought I was going to retire there. Really enjoyed going to Oak Ridge Church.
Vernon:We had a house that we really loved and I was really active as a police chaplain here. And, but, out of the clear, I got called back to Shiloh Church, whoever goes back, you know, and,
T. J.:Apparently Vernon does.
Vernon:Yeah. And, went back to, I was there for thirteen years and retired, What decided to
T. J.:drew you back? It is I mean, it's been done before, but there's not too many occasions where a minister that has served a congregation actually goes back. So what drew you back?
Vernon:Well, that's another story. We I was feeling kind of complacent. You know, Griggs, I knew I needed to do something to spice up my ministry and Adventist Church was they were way too comfortable as well, you know. And all churches get that way, I guess, from time to time. So, we took a vacation down to Texas.
Vernon:We were visiting Tina's mom in Waco and took my motorcycle. I said, Tina, you're visit your mom and I'm gonna ride and I'm just gonna talk to God. That's where I talked to God. And I was going back up to Old Villa where Shiloh is because my sister lives in that little town. I went to, I was called to my first church where lived just a mile away from my sister of all things.
Vernon:And so I'm going up there to meet him. I went up early. She was a school teacher. So I got there early in the day and I was going to visit people that I still had as friends there from Shiloh and no one was around. I went to the church, no one was there and everybody who was always home, no one was home and saw him up sitting at the convenience store there in Old Villas drinking my diet coke and one of the elder, one of the members of Shiloh came up and we looked at each other said, I know you, we've got to talking and all of sudden he says, hey, our minister just resigned.
Vernon:You ready to come back? And I said, Oh, yeah, who goes back? You know. And then I did get a hold of some of the other people and we had our conversation right in the middle and say, Hey, our pastor just was down. You ready to come back?
Vernon:Oh, man. Anyway, I visited my sister and spent the night there, but I went back to Waco and I said, Tina, something's going on. I'm just feeling some weird stuff going on. And so instead of going to church with her mother on that Sunday, we went back to Shiloh, went to church and everybody, hey, our pastor just was done. You ready to come back?
Vernon:And I just said, man, what is going on? And then one of the elders, she had sons about my boys' age and they were kind of close and we were always real close as well. She came up to me and says, hey, I wish we could go to lunch with you, but we're getting rid of a call, we're getting ready to form a search committee. Hey, our pastor is right, you ready to come back? And I said, oh yeah, right.
Vernon:He looked and said, you know, think we need to talk. I said, oh no, you know. And so there you are, you know, that's what happened. And it was a good move. It really was.
Vernon:I went back to a church that a lot of families in it. I went there and I already knew where all the sacred cows were buried and so I had to go through that. There were a bunch of news folks there too. And so it was a it was a good move. I really, really enjoyed my time there and I thought it was a good time.
Vernon:I started the chaplaincy program for the Old Villa Police Department and then also for the Midlothian Police Department. And so I just had a lot of neat things before I found the Blue Knights, which is a passion of mine too. That's a law enforcement motorcycle club. And it was just a good move. It's a good move for us.
T. J.:Yeah, I was reading through your bio, and it talks about Blue Knights International. Do you want to describe that to me? Because I don't know what it is.
Vernon:Yeah, Blue Knights International is a law enforcement most of our club. It's only open to either current law enforcement people or retired law enforcement people, people who had arresting powers. And it started up in Maine in the 70s. And it's now the world's largest law enforcement motorcycle club in a whole bunch of different countries and a lot of different chapters all over. And I was a member of the Texas twenty one chapter which is there out of Waxahachie the Waxahachie Midlothian area, and just a great bunch of people, very family oriented.
Vernon:We don't try to act like the outlaw motorcycle clubs, know, it's just family. We take our family with us on all the outings and things. Families ride together. You don't have to go through any kind of initiation thing like a lot of your clubs have because they feel like if you put on a badge and a gun every day you've already paid your dues, know, and so I have a lot of really great friends well over the nation from meeting the different things, and when I moved here to Oak Ridge, I transferred into Tennessee three chapter, and then we kind of split up a little bit and came over to the new chapter, it's Tennessee two. And it is a great organization and like I said, I'm around cops all the time.
Vernon:Never wanted to be one, but I've always had a heart for cops because I have a tough go. And I get a lot of fulfillment out of it. So it's a selfish thing. Get more out of it than I put in I'm sure, but I have a lot of really good friends there.
T. J.:You have known the Cumberland Presbyterian Church pretty much your entire adult life, And you've served at different capacities, stated clerk, engrossing clerk, pastor, and in different places throughout the denomination. Taking a bird's eye view, Vernon, what do you think are some of the greatest gifts, the greatest strengths of of the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination? So you you've got a platform now to be able to to plug the denomination and let other people know about it.
Vernon:Well, I think one of its great strengths maybe is also kind of a weakness. And that is we are small and I think during the church growth period they offended a lot of people by saying we were almost incestuous because everybody's related to everybody else, you know, because we do have so many families in the church. People have been there a long long time and then we have people like me, the outsiders. I was real fortunate because I did go to Bethel, I did go to our seminary, I kind of got logged in a little bit closer to some of the established comers and Presbyterians. And that really helps us out a whole lot, I think, because we have communication.
Vernon:When I was real active in the ministry, you know, we had communication with a lot of ministers, lot of knew what was going on throughout the denomination. But that also can be a weakness because you don't get innovative much. You keep doing things the same way. Fathers and sons, you don't do things better than your dad that kind of bit, you know. You mimic your dad.
Vernon:It's just it's a help but it's also a hindrance. The other thing right now that's going on I think is that we have let a lot of outsiders come in from other denominations that bring ideas that aren't quite common pescatarians because we are unique. And I can say that I grew up in the PCUS and before the merger with the Northern Church, I probably could have gone back and forth pretty easily, But, you know, actually the murderer just was a no deal. And I think that we've lost our brand. Cumberland Fish Train used to be, you say Cumberland Fish Train, you knew what that stood for and you don't really have that anymore.
Vernon:We don't have the zeal for mission that I think we really need. As a denomination we've kind of become complacent. We have developed factions, very much like the outside world and we shouldn't be reflecting the world. Should be Christians known by our love, ignore that phrase from the music, but we need to be able to stand firm in our beliefs and be more unified and we're not unified anymore.
T. J.:All right. All right, Vernon, keeping that bird's eye view that overlook kind of looking down some of the weaknesses that you mentioned in places that we could be. What would you recommend to to maybe lessen the factions? And you had me grinning because and and you prefaced it this way. Our greatest strength is our greatest weakness.
T. J.:So it's almost we talk out of, you know, both sides of our mouth. I do it as well. Being able to describe the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. But with the bird's eye view looking, you know, what would be some of the things to create a brand or rebrand or recapture a past brand? What advice, what counsel would you offer?
Vernon:Well, think one thing is we need to we've let the church has become the thermometer instead of the thermostat for our people. And I think we just take on what's in the world right now, you know, and that's why we're so divided. Let ourselves get so polarized, but what we're doing, we're worried about social things rather than gospel things. And you know me well enough to know I'm not a bobble thumper. I'm not what my dad used to call a fundamentalist or anything like that.
Vernon:But, you know, we do have there is right, there is wrong, there is black, there is white, there is truth. And I think we in the pulpit have gotten where we don't offend anybody. We don't talk about sin anymore, we we mess just up, you know. We don't sin, we mess up, and I think we really need to get back to some of those truths. But I also believe that you can do so in a way that will bring people together not drive them away.
Vernon:It's not what you say, it's how you say it. And I think we need to get back to that message of comprehension where medium theology, whosoever will may come, about Jesus' love and show that to other people without compromising our core beliefs. And that's where we go wrong. Think we try to be everything to everybody. I think we need to not be afraid to reach out to groups that we don't think we would be around.
Vernon:You know, I did that with the band playing in the bars and things, you know. I mean, I had a couple ask me to perform a wedding for them, you know. I had a drunk come in one night say, hey, people say I have a dream problem. What do you think? I said, it's not what I think, it's what you think, you know.
Vernon:But that's the thing that most ministers wouldn't be around. We've got to be in the world but not of the world, I guess is the key there. And we're so busy wanting to not offend anybody. We're so busy wanting to fit in with everybody else that we don't have that identity anymore.
T. J.:Well, you've offended me about seven to eight times in this conversation.
Vernon:Oh, sure. Well, we've done nothing well then.
T. J.:Vernon, what are you reading right now?
Vernon:I'm really not reading much theology because I'm not having to prepare that many sermons. Did most of my reading for that. So I can't really give you a big long list of books. There's one that I picked up and I have said I was going to read, but I haven't gotten started yet. Can't remember the title of it, but the premise of it is that God really doesn't give any commands.
Vernon:He just gives suggestions for how to live. I'm so curious to see what that looks like.
T. J.:Yeah, the title sounds intriguing. Yeah, what is
Vernon:Yeah, gotta find it. I was looking for it this morning. I don't know what I've done with it, but mainly I'm very pragmatic. I read what I need to read to survive I guess, and so right now I've been I'm still learning the cemetery business, know. When I first got into it I thought it was just digging holes, but it's not what cemetery is about.
Vernon:There's so many rules and so many things, there's so many different products and so many ways that you can help people and so that's really what my life is all wound up in that right now. I'm working for my son and enjoying it. I used to be in a band with him. I used to holler at him, now he hollers at me, you know. We have a good time, I enjoy seeing him every day and we work together well and I'm kind of his second and I'm enjoying it.
Vernon:I do miss some of the ministry. I do get to do some ministry. I did more when I was actually in the family services learning the business at the very beginning, actually helping people making arrangements, but I don't do that anymore. I'm more coordinator and I do the other things if we get in a bind somewhere because I can do them, but it's, I still see it as a ministry helping, helping people on the hardest day of their lives, you know, when they've lost a loved one. Yeah.
Vernon:None of that
T. J.:sounds like retirement to me.
Vernon:It's not retirement. Everybody says you're retired. I'm not working. Sometimes I think I work harder now than I did as a pastor. I thought I worked pretty hard as a pastor.
Vernon:And
T. J.:This is a silly question. But does a director of operations at a memorial park, Does he or she have to wear a suit? Do you have to wear a suit?
Vernon:No, I do wear dress pants and a shirt like this I'm wearing right now. I didn't change after I got to came home from work. If I'm going be working outside, don't do it very often, but I'll put my grubbies on.
T. J.:Okay.
Vernon:It's a big change because my last pastor, I wore blue jeans every weekday and black jeans with a coat on Sunday, you know. Of course in Texas that's that's formal, semi formal anyway. But I'm gonna be working on a trailer this Friday so I'll be in my ribs now, I'll feel at home, but I oversee a crew of four who take care of all the grounds. We have 60 acres that are improved, we have another 60 acres we haven't touched yet, and I coordinate what's going on outside with what's going on inside, make sure, you know, I do all the purchasing and figure out how we're going to fix stuff, and we need new equipment, I'm the one that procures it. I just kind of do anything that's needed, know, and I'm enjoying it.
Vernon:I really am.
T. J.:Alright, here's the other burning question. Vernon, are you a Texan or a Tennessean?
Vernon:There's no I'm a Texan living in exile. And it's a weird thing. I've moved to Tennessee three times. Go figure that one out. Right.
Vernon:But, I imagine I'm gonna be buried here in Tennessee because I I I just refuse to move again. If I have to move, I'm gonna burn the house down. I'm not packing up again. I've moved too many times in my life.
T. J.:In terms of years with Texas and Tennessee, how does it measure up?
Vernon:Pretty close to half and half. It's getting heavier on the Tennessee side now. More of a Texan. Tina and I are both native Texans, but I'm more of a Texan than she is. She really loves Tennessee.
Vernon:And I do like the weather. I'll give you that. But, I don't know it's just something about Texas, you know.
T. J.:And there's something about Tennessee. Otherwise you wouldn't live in Tennessee.
Vernon:Well, this is where God wants me. Know, been good to me. I enjoyed West Tennessee. It was more like East Texas and I really like Oak Ridge area, Knoxville. And so yeah, it's been good for us.
T. J.:Well, Vernon, is there anything that you want to talk about that we didn't cover?
Vernon:Not really. Think you got covered most of my life except my young childhood, you know, so yeah, we've done most everything. The main thing, think, like I said, God has just always provided it. I've been along for the ride. It's been so funny.
Vernon:When we first were talking about moving, going back to school, was so against it and my committee kept saying, you know, it's the only way you're going be ordained, you got to do it. And so I put some conditions on God. Don't know if you've ever done it or not. Know, said, well, if I can sell mine, and nothing was done at that time in Longview, so if I can sell my house and find a job there or go to school work out the money, I'll go. And so first thing I did since things weren't set, went ahead, we put the house on the market and within a week it sold and so my gosh, I had to move Tina and the kids down to from my parents in San Antonio and I got a bachelor pad because I had to work through the sermon commitments for the sermon there at Elmont Chapel and then we went up to Mackenzie.
Vernon:I didn't have a job. I'd written to all the pastors in West Tennessee Presbytery, didn't get any answers back, and so Tina had never been to McKenzie, so we drove up to McKenzie and I go in the biggest church there is first Cumberland of Mackenzie, Bob Price was pastor, and I walked in and handed my resume and already mailed to him and introduced myself and we talked to Wyatt and he said, what brought you here today? Well, looking for a job. I gotta have something. I'd rather work for a church, I'll do check work.
Vernon:I'll do anything, but we're, you know, I gotta move this summer, the end of the summer, come up to school. What brought you here? You know, nobody answered my letters. I'm here drumming up a job. He said, you know, it's real funny, but we just voted the session to hire a youth director.
Vernon:We haven't done that before. He said, so who sent you here? And I said, you'll be here right there. We're gonna be staying at the McKenzie Hilton, a little hotel there for the night, and we'll be there. So, well, you might get a phone call.
Vernon:Well I stayed up there and had my contacts at the time. I still had my contacts in my eyes getting blurry and hair was greasy from the day out visiting around Tina was kind of halfway dozing and laying on the top of the bed, the made up bed, when all of sudden there was a knock on the door. And here was the whole blooming committee of most elders and they come into the room and and they're sitting on the bed, they're sitting on the air conditioning unit, they're sitting on the desk everywhere else, all these people in my room and we interviewed and I got hired on the spot. So yeah, I've been led, you know, it's just how my life has been.
T. J.:You're telling me that you got a job before you returned back to Texas. What? You got a job at McKinsey before you even returned back to Texas.
Vernon:Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And we had scheduled a move and a member of the church had a house for rent right across the street from the funeral home there, and just a few blocks from college. Yeah, life was good.
Vernon:The funny thing is my brother knew that I would never ask for money. And we, our church, since we had a secretary there, the only church that really had an almost full time secretary, the church was open, the churches got together, had a food bank, but it was kept there at the McKenzie church, and one of the things I did was I was supposed to give out food when people needed it. Well, we would get, I mean, we, it would get, it would get tight, and before we left, like I said, mother knew we wouldn't ask for money. And so she gave me these stuff cellophane, cubes of soup stock, know, had no meat in it, it was like barley soup and that kind of bit. Yeah.
Vernon:And she said, don't ever eat it, just keep it until you really need it. I said, okay, fine. And we would get to the point where I'd go to class and kids said, well, it looks like we're gonna eat some of mother's soup tonight. So I'd go off to school. Every day, every time that happened, it happened a few times, I'd either get an anonymous check through the church in Longview, never knew who gave it, for like $100, or, and we never told anybody we were hungry, I wouldn't take any of the food from the church, there would be sacks of food left on our doorsteps every time, and so we never had to use mom's stoops.
Vernon:Well after that year was up I went to Bolivar and we were in tall cotton, like I said I was making a thousand dollars a month, had a mantz, and you know we had to watch your pennies, but life was good and I didn't even think about mom's dudes. Well, after I graduated, got called to the Shiloh Church, Tina was unpacking all the stuff for the kitchen and the people that moved us, they just packed everything up for us. So she's unpacking, she comes across mom's soup. She said, you know, we've made it through all this, never had to use mom's soup, I think we need to celebrate and have mom's soup for the night. That sounds good.
Vernon:Then when I opened up all of them had weevils, they weren't useful anymore. They always kind like my manna. As long as we needed it, it was there, but once we didn't need it, you know, it was gone. God has provided for us all through this whole adventure. You know, I don't worry.
Vernon:I worry more than my mother. My mother couldn't worry about anything. She had such great faith, but I'm not there quite, you know, I have concerns, but I just don't worry about things because I always know God's gonna get me through it, and God's pretty faithful.
T. J.:Yeah. Sounds like, you've been you
Vernon:and
T. J.:your family have been blessed. And Vernon, it's been a blessing to to hear your faith journey and to call you a friend.
Vernon:Oh, thank you.
T. J.:Got to know each other pretty well in the last year or so and serving in different committees and capacities. And I really appreciate you sitting down and sharing your time with me. Really do.
Vernon:It's been a pleasure.
T. J.:Thank you, Vernon.
T. J.:Thanks for listening to my faith conversation with Vernon. In reflecting back on the topics that we discussed, I'm reminded about God's providence. In closing, let me share from the Confession of Faith for Cumberland Presbyterians in sections one fourteen and one fifteen. God ordinarily exercises providence through the events of nature and history, using such instruments as persons, laws, and the Scriptures, yet remains free to work with them or above them. The whole creation remains open to God's direct activity. The purpose of God's providence is that the whole creation be set free from its bondage to sin and death and be renewed in Jesus Christ. Thanks for listening.
