Veronica Ent - Women's Ministry, Human Behavior & The Need For A Church Family
You're listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ Melan Oste. The following is the Faith Journey with Veronica End, president of the Cumberland Presbyterian Women's Ministry Convention. Veronica has built her career in the fields of psychology and counseling. She shares her faith journey and how it mirrors her field of work and human behavior, where we are all in need and in search of love, acceptance, and to experience belonging. Enjoy this faith journey of Veronica Int.
T.J.:You are the president of the Cumberland Presbyterian Women's Convention. What is women's ministry?
Veronica:Well, like most denominations, TJ, we, we have an arm of the of the, denomination that is is women's ministry. And my understanding because I've been fortunate enough to be mentored by some older women in my group that, have done a really good job of of keeping alive the beginnings of women's ministry. It began because they were at first called Cumberland Presbyterian Women's Missionary Group because they were formed primarily to support the missionaries, both overseas and local. And that was that was their purpose. And in the beginning, most often, missionaries on furlough in the states would visit the churches and talk about what they were doing because the women's ministry actually supported them.
Veronica:So that's that's kind of how it began, and now it has turned into so much more. That is still our primary purpose. And the thing that I look forward to most about convention is meeting the missionaries and talking to them. There's always time to to, you know, sit down at a dinner table with them and find out what they're really doing and what it's really like and, maybe some of the stumbling blocks that they have faced, and it's just an interesting conversation to have with them. But, there's a lot more to it now.
Veronica:The local groups that I have been, fortunate enough to be involved with also handle a lot of local things within the church. You know, women forever have been the ones that planned the meals and things like that. You know? But there there are other things that that we do. And like I said, when talking with other groups, it is amazing the variety of services and ministries that they offer to their local community.
Veronica:Some of the things that we do in my local group is that, as I had said, I have some older mentors in my group, and a couple of them just thought that it would be nice if we could furnish a a space and a reason and a way for to get the elderly people in our community together, and just socialize and and, have a little activity outside of the home, you know, as as is true all through life. But these people are normally at an age that their children are grown, maybe their grandchildren are even grown. Everyone has their own life. That is just that's just the way it is. So this gives them a time and a space to get together.
Veronica:So once a month, we have a senior lunch, and people from all over the community, not just Cumberland Presbyterian, not just Garfield, come together and they just socialize and enjoy each other's company. And, you know, sometimes it's potluck and sometimes we furnish the meal. The food is never the focus. Yesterday was our senior lunch, and there were people from all over the county there. And it's usually somewhere between 2545 people.
Veronica:They, enjoy each other's company so much that it is they're so busy visiting that sometimes that I just hate to interrupt them to ask the blessing and and have me. You know? They just it's just such a good a good fellowship for them. And then we have, yesterday, we had 3 local people come in, just play guitar and, you know, guess this tune with them, and they just they just enjoy it so much and so do we. I I mean, I enjoy the fellowship with them, and I enjoy seeing them fellowship and seeing them have, something to attend once a month and something to look forward to the other times.
Veronica:You know? So that's just a brief sample.
T.J.:Women's ministry meets locally, like, in a local congregation and then regionally and then a large convention.
Veronica:Mhmm.
T.J.:Could you talk briefly about the differences between the 3?
Veronica:On the local level, obviously, you know most of the people in your group, they go to your church. There's some business there, but the business that you take care of in that group pertains to your group. In the regional level, I think there are 35 women's ministry groups in our region, and and we get together and we decide, as a region, things that we might do, plus, what we might do or present at convention. And we also decide, obviously, on the delegates that we will send a convention to vote on the business that will be discussed there. So those are those are a couple of things.
Veronica:Then when we get to the convention level, the big decisions are made, and the delegates from the region and the local groups will, help to make those decisions because it's all about, you know, the the voting. Also, at the region and and local level, you hardly ever do get to hear from the missionaries. You hardly ever get to hear speakers speak that you will have the opportunity to hear. So it's it's it's a time when I mean, there there are a lot of people that come to convention that that's the only time I see them. Mhmm.
Veronica:Is that once a year. You know? I I don't make it out to Choctaw. I don't make it to Japan. So, when they come in, it's it's a little bit like a family reunion.
Veronica:You know, you see them once a year and you get to chat with them and and and catch up with them. So, that's always a pleasant part of it. But you also get to help determine how the monies are spent, which, ministries, whether it's a homeless ministry or whatever that it is, we hardly ever have the opportunity to determine how that money is spent, but at convention, we do. We we decide which ministries, which services that we will support that year. So that's also an important part of it.
Veronica:We also elect officers obviously for the, upcoming years. Last year was a very big year for CPWM because it has been decided that this year, 23, will be the last time that we will meet, concurrently with GA in the same location and, at the same time. And and the there were several reasons for that, but the main reason for breaking apart from that was that we had so many women ministers who attended GA and then they because it was at the same time, they couldn't attend women's ministry convention. So, this year will be the last year that we will be meeting, like I said, with the general assembly. We will be, celebrating our history together, and we will be planning our, I don't wanna call it a separation, but we will be planning our separate roads that we will travel in this venture.
T.J.:You've been elected the president of the women's ministry convention and 10 10 months in the office. What have you learned? What have you seen? What have you gathered? How has that enriched your life in being elected the president?
T.J.:And and what does that role entail?
Veronica:Wow. That's a big question.
T.J.:It is.
Veronica:It has certainly been a learning experience. Going into this office, you know, I had talked to previous presidents, but there are so many more things that it entails. First of all, I had no idea that there were so many small groups across the world as there are. The, convention officers, we sort of divide up. I'm gonna take care or I'm gonna stay in contact with these 27 churches, and you stay in contact with these.
Veronica:And so we sort of divided that by region and by churches to stay in touch with them and, you know, offer help and and guidance and, those kinds of things. Just like this past week, my my regional, president from this region, Cumberland region, and I drove, to Somerset, Kentucky, and that's about 2 and a half, 3 hours from here. And because there was a group of ladies down there that wanted to start a local CPWM, They wanted to know reasons that they should, what were the benefits, what were the costs, if any, what were the expectations? And we had a we had a wonderful conversation with these ladies who, they want to be a part of something bigger than they are. They want to stay in touch with other CPWMs and see how they do things and how they address things, and and they want to know more about our mission work overseas and and, in the states.
Veronica:So, it's been a learning experience for sure. I'm interested that there are so many groups and yet some and this is this is probably across I know this is across denominations because I've talked to other people, but, so many are run by the senior citizens of that church. You know? So that well, those are the active members, and I get that. You know, young people are working.
Veronica:They're running the kids to ball games, you know, dance recitals, and they're just busy. And and and I get that. I really do. I understand that. I remember that.
Veronica:But if if these older ladies are keeping this alive and bringing in some younger ladies along the way, that's how we will keep this alive. That's how we will we will sustain this program, which I think is very, very important. As far as convention and some of the responsibilities there, just leading the business session is a is a large, large part of it. And I'm not a parliamentary procedure expert, but, you know, just leading those, business sessions is part of it. But I believe what I have witnessed is that if we can start each day of those business proceedings with sweet fellowship and worship, it just sets the tone.
Veronica:And not not that I've ever witnessed any difficulties there, but I think that's because we start each day with fellowship, worship, sweet music, and it sets a sweet spirit in the in the room so that we can discuss things and explains things and, you know, work together. Maybe I always agree on everything, but but to work together to come to some consensus.
T.J.:I've attended one regional meeting several years ago, and it was my first one. And I was surprised. It felt like a party. Somehow, it was a blended mix of business and celebration. I mean, there was laughter, clapping, gifts being showered, joy, and just that fellowship of being in company with one another.
T.J.:How do you capture that in a bottle to be able to spread it out in other areas? And does convention look like that? Does does a local, group or circle look like that as well?
Veronica:You know, I think it does look a lot like that, TJ. Just recently, my home church hosted our regional presbytery meeting, and, people were comfortable. And I again, I say it's because of the sweet, sweet spirit that was in that building. But people were comfortable to stand up and, ask permission or, you know, state that they wanted to to speak to something that had happened in their church that year. Something some way that God had blessed their church, some way that their church had grown or that certain things had happened.
Veronica:And I think when people are comfortable to speak, that's that's a big deal. I think that's a big big deal. That that means they feel a part of that group, and that organization and that, people that are in that room. And that happened at Presbytery, and, I did hear, you know, there was some business discussed there, but it was it was handled so professionally. And after the meeting and many times since, even when I was in Somerset this week, people talked about how that presbytery was so blessed to operate that way.
Veronica:But that was what a good meeting that was. And I do I will say again, I believe it's because, you know, we set the tone for those things. If we go in combative or upset because someone disagrees with us or, this is gonna be a long day, you know, it's something like that. But I think when you come together and you know there's gonna be laughter and you know there's gonna be, fun times together too. Yes.
Veronica:And there is that joy of being together.
T.J.:Well, you didn't wake up one morning and become president of the Cumberland Presbyterian Women's Ministry. So let's go further back and talk about maybe your upbringing and your roots and and kinda ease into your early exposure to spirituality and more specifically the Christian faith?
Veronica:Well, I was blessed to be born into a Christian family. My mom and dad attended, Baptist Church forever, and my dad was a deacon in the church, and my mom was a Sunday school teacher and a clerk. And, I've I've just always known that. I've just always known that. My dad we were farmers also, so I also learned that hard work produces results.
Veronica:Mhmm. And I think that does have to be learned. So those those two things blended together, but, you know, church was a big part of my parents and my family's life. In fact, I tell people all the time, that was our social life. You know, those were our friends.
Veronica:Some of them were our family, and that was our social life. When we had cookouts and gatherings, it was usually with that group. So when my mom and dad would get together and play cards with another couple, then we would work puzzles or whatever with with their children. You know? So that kind of fellowship was important to me.
Veronica:That kind of friendship was important to me, and it was a part of of my church life. It was part of that because it was of a church family, and I still feel very strongly about that. My husband and I come home from church, a lot of times and say, aren't we blessed to have a good church family like this? Because that is you know, your children grow up. My children grew up and moved away.
Veronica:One's in Nashville and one's in Lexington. So, we need a church family. We not only want it and love it, but we need it as well.
T.J.:When you were growing up, what did that community of faith give to you as a child? What did it instill in you about, well, living with other human beings, interacting with other human beings, the scriptures, how did that impact your life?
Veronica:That's hard to pinpoint. One thing comes to mind. I remember being a teenager and and for for some years and in some ways, you know, you just hear a lot of rules. You hear a lot of, regulation.
T.J.:You Right? You almost made me choke on my coffee. Right. That's great. Yeah.
T.J.:We we think of the limitations. We think of the barriers and and how it can stifle stifle maybe the workings of the church at times. Please go ahead. I spoke over you, but you tickled me. Sometimes you were very much describing who we can be.
Veronica:Yes. Yes. And I I think that, and sometimes our churches become that because that's black and white and that's easy. You know? But, I remember as a teenager, I had a Sunday school teacher.
Veronica:And, you know, living by the rules can be very difficult, and staying within the boundaries can be very difficult. And thinking that if you cross those boundaries or broke those rules, it was it was very damaging. But this Sunday school teacher was teaching, 1 week, and I had no idea that she had ever been married before her present husband. And but she was talking to teenage girls, and she said, girls, I want you to know because I've been there. And she told us that she had been married before and it didn't work out and how devastating that was for her, and how she had it had always haunted her.
Veronica:So she stressed to us the importance of having God be part of our decision making. Those important decisions. That's definitely. But even the smaller decisions in life. And that is something that I have always believed and more recently in the last 25 years or so, look back on my life and and can easily remember and know those times when I did that correctly and what the outcomes were versus, you know, when I tried to do it on my own.
Veronica:So so that was a that was a big lesson for me, was that God just wasn't in the building with the rules, holding the tablets, that he was always there and needed to be and wanted to be a part of our decision making and our life choices.
T.J.:Yeah. That's interesting to think to think of God not as the the ruler and the overseer, but maybe more of a, as a companion in our everyday life. And you got to experience that early then and discover discover that, oh, that, that aspect of God, Someone who could be a companion. Mhmm.
Veronica:Yes.
T.J.:And wants to be instead of the the finger pointer, the the, arms crossed, looking at us sideways, waiting for us to slip up, make a mistake.
Veronica:Yes. Yes. And in the years following, I have that has grown in me and that I I no longer see God as, like you said, someone waiting for us to slip up or someone that's watching us to see if we make a mistake, but someone that's watching us to to know that we need his help and to encourage us to ask for that.
T.J.:And and when you were talking about church as a family, you know, that being a community, at its best, I think we exemplify those aspects of God. To be able to forgive, provide grace, accountability as well, but that grace when it's needed.
Veronica:Mhmm. Mhmm. And I think that's something that some church groups have more difficulty with Yeah. Than others. Yeah.
Veronica:Yeah. Just like some people do it more than others. We we remember those scriptures that causes or at least, keep us being judgmental, but then we sometimes leave out those words of wisdom in the Bible that help us to be the forgiving, loving, full of grace people that we are meant to be.
T.J.:Mhmm. Oftentimes, when we grow up in the church, you know, from infancy or as a small child into adulthood, it can be difficult to distinguish a specific moment in time when we really felt or understood or could articulate that we were in a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. So with that being said, Veronica, did you just kind of grow into a relationship with God? Or was there a pivotal moment in time, an moment, a moment of revelation where you're like, this is this is what my life is going to be like. This is transforming the power of God.
Veronica:I was very young. I was, I think, 8 years old when I made that profession of faith, And I knew at that moment what a child knows. I knew that, that Jesus loved me. I knew that I wanted to be a part of his family. I did not know what all it entailed.
Veronica:Of course, I didn't. I'm 8 years old. No.
T.J.:I'm an adult, and I still don't know. I'm still discovering.
Veronica:But then there there were there were times, and I I I really cannot recall a pivotal moment. It was just always there, And then there were times when I was certainly reminded because, you know, like most teenagers, your friends are awfully important to you, and they sometimes have different beliefs and are less fortunate than I have to have families that have taught me things. And then and then you go to college. And, of course, my story is a little different, TJ, because I went to college at 35 years old and still felt some of those things that 19 year olds felt. I was I was a little old.
Veronica:I didn't have a little more experience, but I but I thought about that. I thought these 19 year olds that this is the first time they've been away from home, the first freedom. Mhmm.
T.J.:I
Veronica:can I can I I can really understand how they bought in to some of the beliefs of other people because, you know, they thought these people are cool? They're educated. They must be right. And I think that happens a lot on our college campuses, unfortunately. But, but I understood it more after being there as an adult even.
Veronica:Mhmm. I did. But there were times in those years that something would happen that I would say, yeah. That's gone. That happened because of God.
Veronica:There are some experiences, and, Tito, you can cut as many of these out as you want. But, anyway, because it might not be appropriate, but you have the edit button so you can do that. But I remember once and and and, when I was going through a divorce with, from my first husband, that I got this letter in the mail from my attorney after it was all over, and it was a check. And he said, Blanca, I think you've overpaid me. And at that time, I was a single mom, obviously, and I was, working at a not real high paying job.
Veronica:But I did continue to tithe and to work in the church and, not that this was a reward for that. I'm not saying that at all. But, I mean, how many lawyers send you a check and say, I think you've ever paid me? So I I just thought, well, thank you, god, because I needed that money this week or whatever. And and but and then there are other times.
Veronica:Once, right before tragedy in my life, this was many years later, I, had retired from a job, and I was so drawn to the bible and even some, speakers that I would hear on TV. I was just so drawn. And during that year, that 1st year I was retired, I just I just felt like I was growing so much in my relationship with God, and I was grateful for that. I was grateful for that time. I was grateful for that desire.
Veronica:And that that winter of this tragedy struck in my life, and I I honestly could not I don't know how I could have handled that had I not had that year of spiritual growth. I think it it it I think that helped me to handle that situation so much better. And I just think there are there are a few experiences like that. I guess the most recent one was, in February, one of the teenagers that I used to teach in church was going to Asbury and his parents his grandmother told me on, Wednesday night about the prayer service, the chapel meeting that had met that Wednesday morning, and it was still going on. Well, on Sunday, the parents told me that it was still going on nonstop.
Veronica:So on Monday morning, my sister and I got up and drove Asbury. And, that was certainly a, spirit filled, chapel, large, large chapel, 15, 1700 seating capacity. And as we sat there and worshiped with people that were driving from other places and a lot of college students and busloads of college students. That was another opportunity for me to know how real and how important Holy Spirit is. Mhmm.
Veronica:So that was another growing experience, I think, that God allowed me to have. There was a time when a friend of mine had a granddaughter who developed anorexia. And before that, anyone recognized and acknowledged it, she was in almost a dangerous health position. And when she was in the clinic, which was several hours away, my friend and her husband continued to go to church, and they continued to participate, you know, in the services and such. And much later, someone said to my friend, you and your husband have been such an example because you have stayed faithful through a difficult time.
Veronica:You have been such an example to me. And and so, you know, that and the and the the young lady with anorexia as well, and and this was several years ago, and she's married and got a baby. I mean, her life is but, her life is good. Thank god. But I just think that sometimes something will happen and someone will say something that makes you realize just like she said, it may you know, we just went to church because what else are you gonna do?
Veronica:There that there's our help. So what what what else could we do? But that god will use that to show someone else I just think that's that's just that's just God. That's just the way he works.
T.J.:Yeah. It's hard. It well, it can be understated that, we can be living examples to the things that we believe. The love of Christ, the grace we receive, the grace that we can give, a listening ear, understanding. I mean, these are just these are just things that the world craves and we crave even even within a community of faith.
T.J.:You mentioned earlier that you went back to school a little bit later in life. Mhmm. What were you planning? What was your educational goals and professional goals?
Veronica:It was just another one of those rare things, and it like I said, I you I've already told you that I that I had been through a divorce. And, after that happened, my minister came to me. He said, what are you gonna do now? And I'm like, I'm not really sure. He said, what have you always wanted to do?
Veronica:And I said, I always wanted to go to school. So he brought me some literature, and I just, ran down there on the last day of registration and registered for some classes. And psychology was my interest. Human mind, human behavior, it was my interest. Always had been.
Veronica:I've I've I have always been a people watcher, and so that was pretty pretty easy decision. So I majored in psychology and then, got a counseling degree, a master's degree, and wasn't sure what I would do with it. But thought that something would open up, and it did. The the job I had at the college at where where I was attending school for a while, I was, I worked in what we called a learning skill center. It was where students came for help, and I was able to, I think, encourage those who were about, this is more than I can do.
Veronica:This is too difficult. I think I was able to encourage people. I guess I would like to think that to keep on trying. You know, there there are bad semesters, but you can stand on your head and gargle peanut butter. You know, you can you can do anything for 1 semester.
Veronica:Just get through this semester and then make your decision. So that was that was an opportunity for me to, you know, to be an encourager.
T.J.:Yeah.
Veronica:And then in my job at the high school, we have a position in Kentucky called Family Resource Youth Services Center, and we were to be the connect the connection between the school and the student. So I had wonderful students who were program leaders in some of my programs, but then I also had those troubled students that the teachers were ready to just do something. But when I would visit the homes and talk with the parents, it was so apparent to me, most often what the student needed, you know, and it was able to usually provide those services. Sometimes it was as simple as a pair of glasses. You know, they need a pair of glasses.
Veronica:They can't see. That's why their grades are failing. Sometimes it was, home life that, was not what it should have been or home situations that that just wasn't what it should have been. And it's sometimes I think one of the most interesting things that that I ever encountered was a a grandparents came in to talk to me about their grandchild, teenage grandchild that they had just had dressed up on them to raise. And they were just so out of their element, and they didn't understand why children just and I was just able to, explain to them some I guess I did not tell them the differences in the world.
Veronica:They knew that when they had raised their children and when they're raising their grandchildren. But some of the things these kids were doing were pretty normal for this point in their life and this point in our world and our history, And they left there. I remember they just thanked me and thanked me and thanked me for talking with them because he gave them someone to share their troubles and questions and problems with. And, it let they left their feeling, I think, that, that they they could do this. They could raise these grandchildren.
Veronica:So that was another I've had a I've had a lot of really good positives in my life. I have. I have. No bad.
T.J.:With your education and your life experience and your vocation, what have you learned? What have you discovered about human behavior? What is the commonalities that you see from person to person?
Veronica:Many times, I think people are okay. I can say it like this. Hurting people hurt people very, very often. People who hurt other people are very, very often hurting themselves. I think that a lot of time, people don't know any better.
Veronica:They're living what they learned.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Veronica:And I don't want to give excuse to everyone's behavior because that's not that's not necessarily true. Sometimes people just do mean things. You know? Sometimes kids can just be mean and adults can be mean. That's just that's just the way it is.
Veronica:But, most often, there's a reason people behave the way they do. I think people are all whether they're seeking, whether they even know they need it, but I think people need love and acceptance. People need to belong to something. You know, family, church family, groups at school. I think when people can belong and have a purpose, they are less likely to be mean or violent to other people.
T.J.:Do you think it's human nature for us to be seeking out others and maybe groups, social groups, faith based groups for that purpose, for that belonging. So in turn with that question, how in your mind, how do we how do we make Cumberland Presbyterian Church and a community of faith open and available for those who are looking for those communities, for that sense of belonging, for that commonality? What barriers we must be throwing up barriers that are turning people away.
Veronica:I think that so often, we don't know. We don't I don't think we even realize sometimes the barriers we throw up. But I think, that if we can be friendlier and accepting, that that would be a big barrier that we could we could tear down. Sometimes I think that even our, some of our rules and regulations and seem to turn people off. They are looking for a, a friendly, accepting, I wanna be a part of, this I wanna be a part of something.
Veronica:They don't want to just maybe come in. And some people do just wanna come and sit on the bench, you know, but a lot of people could be involved. And I think if we can find find ways to involve people, if we can find ways to, let them be a part of the things that are already going on or even bring in new ideas. I think we need to be more open to new ideas. I don't I I think that I read this somewhere, and I think it's true that very dangerous words inside of a church are, we never done it that way.
Veronica:Yeah. Yeah. Or, we've always done it this way. What's and and and I think behind that, the other the other statement is, what's wrong with the way we do it now?
T.J.:Right. Right. The unspoken.
Veronica:Yes.
T.J.:Yeah. The unspoken implication, behind the question, especially among Southerners. Yeah. I'm stereotyping here, but we we have a tendency to not ask the real question that we're thinking. Wanna be polite.
T.J.:Mhmm. Kind. A little less direct.
Veronica:Yes. Yes. And I think that we, on our side of that, I think that we need to be less offended when someone suggests something new. Don't you think?
T.J.:Yeah. Most definitely. Most definitely.
Veronica:And not everything is about me, so I don't need to be offended every day.
T.J.:Or or not to let the offense be the primary and the first reaction.
Veronica:Yes. You know?
T.J.:Let us digest it a little bit.
Veronica:But if we could just be open to new ideas and say, I've I've watched people do this as well. You know? Well, let's talk about that. Let's think about that. You know, bring us some information, and maybe next time, we'll you know?
Veronica:Let's do a little research on that instead of just shutting it down with you know, we've never done that then. Yeah. I think that I think that would be a a good place to start with our, especially with our small groups.
T.J.:Yeah.
Veronica:That would be a good place to start.
T.J.:How did your faith inform your your counseling in the various school settings that you were a part of and are a part of as an educator?
Veronica:Well, I was I was pretty fortunate. Once again, I'm pretty blessed that, the principles I worked under gave me a lot of autonomy. I remember saying once to my principal, my first principal, whom I respected a lot. We had a speaker. He said, so, Veronica, what did you think?
Veronica:And I said, well, I'm a little surprised at his religious, his freedom to speak of religion and and such. And he said, oh, that doesn't bother me. And I thought, good. You know, that was a that was a good thing to know. I still have to be careful because some some parents might be bothered by that.
Veronica:You know? Mhmm. But I think that, because I had that spirituality that I was very able to share that without preaching. I remember one of the teachers that retired that that I gave a little talk at her retirement dinner. And I said this, and it was true.
Veronica:And she was a role model for me, But I said she she shared her spiritual beliefs without ever saying a word.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Veronica:She lived it. She showed it. You know? And she wasn't ashamed to say it, but she didn't preach it. You know?
Veronica:She would just live it, and I just thought that was that was that was my goal was to be more like that, that that I could that people would wouldn't have to question whether or not I was recruited. You know, that that's always a good thing when they don't have to question. Right?
T.J.:Yeah. I think it would be almost confrontational if somebody came and said, you know, TJ, what are you all about? You know, what what makes you tick? Because it's unclear. You send me a mixed message, and I think that would be, well, I'd have to ponder it, but I think that would that would be painful to hear.
T.J.:Not that I wear have to wear Christianity, you know, tattooed on my arm
Veronica:Right.
T.J.:Or, in my case, on on on my bald head. But but to be able that people could hear hear God's grace in my voice and in my posture, in my body language, and and see it in my actions as well. I mean, that's the ideal setting that I message that I hope that I can convey. How do you do that, Veronica? What does that look like for you, and what does that sound like for you?
T.J.:So you've said in a nice and roundabout way that, probably won't find you on a street corner with a banner or a placard. Right. So what what does your sharing of the faith look and sound like?
Veronica:Well, it is completely legal if a student, and I and I did not know this at the time, but if a student mentions god, then you can you you have the the legal, right to to speak with them about that. But but many times, in in life today, we live in a small town, TJ. Everyone knows what everyone else does. So walking walking the walk is as important as talking the talk. You know?
Veronica:It just really is because if I, go be president of CBWM at any level or go to church on Sunday and go out and invite other people to come to church on Sunday. And then on Friday night, I'm over here at the cookout drunk as a skunk. You know? That everyone's gonna know that. I'm gonna know that.
Veronica:It it null and voids, anything that I might do. But, I I do think that the kind of things you participate in, the way you interact with people at the grocery store or, heaven help, Walmart, you know, I think that says a lot for you. I think that that speaks volumes. That is who you are, how you treat people
T.J.:Mhmm.
Veronica:Is who you are. It doesn't matter how many scriptures you can quote. If you can't treat people right, if you can't obey the laws, I mean, if you're just if you have road rage all the time and you're just, you know, I think all of those things make up who we are. I just I I just think there's more important things than talking the talk. I think that most of the time when I'm interacting with someone and I'm not saying that, there are some people that I know there are some people that behave well that still need Jesus.
Veronica:I know that. But generally speaking, I just think that people would be able to tell that you were a spiritual person by your language, by the way you react to things, how you treat people in business and in I mean, if you're not gonna treat them as well when they walk into your business as you do when they walk into church, I think that says a lot. So I just think it's it's how we live. It's much more important. I think I mean, I'd like to think, and I I hope this is true, that in my retirement years, I've had a lot more time to, be involved in volunteer work and, you know, community things.
Veronica:And I've I've run into a different group of people than than just the education, part of life. But I would like to think that, that those things reflect my spiritual beliefs. Right now, for the last, I don't know, 3 or 4 years, I've been involved with the sober living home for women here in our county, and I tell them openly that I get a lot more from them than they get from me because, I leave there just, you know, revived. The the lady that teaches, with me on Thursdays, sometimes we'll walk in. It's like, oh, yeah.
Veronica:I I don't know how long I can do this. You know? It's just we're walking up the sidewalks, and I don't know how long I can do this. By Thursday, I've already I'm already kind of tired and blah blah blah. You know?
Veronica:But then when we leave there, we always say, might have to give up something, but it won't be this. Because that they it just inspires me to see them turning their lives that have been treacherous around. You know, just turning it around. I mean, it's amazing. And And I don't say this for my bible study.
Veronica:I say this for the whole house, the gift house. What they are doing is they're they're taking little broken soldiers and repairing them and sending them out. And it's like an army of God because when they leave there, they are equipped, not because of anything we do. I'm not saying that. You know that.
Veronica:But, but they have to attend AA meetings. They have to attend church, church of their choice, but they have to attend twice a week or whatever. They have to attend the bible studies that go on in the home. And what I find is that they are so, excited about it that they spend a lot more time studying their bible and end up having a lot more input in the bible study than I do. So so that's an interesting thing.
Veronica:But, I would just like to think that that those are those are the kinds of things that say who I am.
T.J.:There's something that's inspirational when you see an individual really transform and grow and heal and, get up and and brush themselves off and try try again. I always find those individuals who who could give up at any time and don't. And I find great encouragement in those transformative stories and journeys. And whether they know it or not, they help others by by just doing. Just keep trying.
Veronica:Yes. Yes. Yes. Because someone is always watching. You know?
Veronica:Either the people that are watching are looking for a way to to say this doesn't work. This program doesn't work. You know? Alright. They go to church, but that didn't work.
Veronica:You know? They've accepted Christ. That doesn't work. Someone's always watching. But most often, what I hear is the other side of that, you know, how inspiring they are.
T.J.:Well, it sounds like some of your volunteering and your life experiences have put you in a place where you've encountered folks who may not be followers of Christ. So if somebody was to ask you, well, where is God? Where's the where's the evidence of God, God's presence in the world? How would you respond to that question?
Veronica:Well, a lot of people do say that.
T.J.:A lot
Veronica:of people do say that. They ask, you know, look at the world. What a shape we're in. Where is God? And I always, without sounding preachy, try to tell them that I believe God is everywhere, and he is at work.
Veronica:And people still have free choice, and people still do make bad decisions. You know, some more than others. But that, ultimately, God is in control. And and I truly believe that the things that happen in our life that are questionable, that we wonder why there's a lesson to be learned. And if we will just continue to believe and to to to listen for his for his his word or to study his word, that we will learn the lesson, and we will be better for having had what was a bad experience at the time.
Veronica:As far as the world go ahead.
T.J.:Well, I I was chuckling because I was thinking, well, oftentimes, the the life lessons I have learned have been in retrospect.
Veronica:Yes. Just
T.J.:looking back and be like, oh, okay. I'm not gonna do that again. Although, there are moments I can think in in my own life, in that moment and be like, yeah. This was not a good idea. I probably shouldn't I probably shouldn't have built the ramp that tall for the bicycle jump.
T.J.:Right. But but most of the time, it's looking back and going, okay. Yeah. I that changed me. That changed my perspective.
T.J.:But, yeah, occasionally, it's in the moment, but not very often.
Veronica:Right. Right. And looking back, and I think this is another, you know, I think this is one of the advantages advantages of all those birthdays is that we look back and we can repeatedly see where God was there. You know? We didn't you might not seen it at the time, but we can look back and see more than 1 and more than 2 times when god was there.
Veronica:And that helps us to know that he's still here.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Veronica:He's still here. You know, I had someone say to me, and they were an adult, and they were saying how difficult it was to follow and and and live by, you know, the scriptures. And it's you know, if we could've just lived in Jesus' time and met him and walked with him, and I'm like, oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. That was tough too because there was a large crowd that was fighting men, and it was purely their belief.
Veronica:You know, they didn't have 2000 years of history. It was purely their belief that kept them following Christ. So, no, I don't I don't think you can I don't think we'll buy that one?
T.J.:Well, I think the gospels kinda point, if you focus on the disciples, those closest friends of Jesus, travel with them, eat with them, you know, shelter with them, teach with them, and they're constantly asking questions and can almost hear a tone of frustration in in those biblical texts where Jesus is like, can you not hear? Are you not listening? Time and time again, and they're they have those first encounters. Yes. I think we're I think I'm with you.
T.J.:I think we have the advantage of learning from others' lessons, others' experiences.
Veronica:I think so. And I think we can look at the I mean, the disciples were young, and they were right there, but we can look at their life even after, Jesus ascended to heaven and and see what their lives were like. And I think that gives us an advantage because we can see that they held on to the beliefs, you know, that that their faith grew and that they knew what they were doing. Mhmm. And they could they couldn't see the future.
Veronica:They didn't know, you know, then. So I I think that we definitely have the advantage there. And then there have been who knows? Numbers. 100 of 1000 of people who have had experiences that we can also learn from.
T.J.:Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Veronica:Not from our own, but from others as well. Yes.
T.J.:Yeah. Veronica, what hopes do you have for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
Veronica:I do have hope for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and I have hope for, I have hope for America, and I have hope that that what we are going through right now politically and socially in our world, it's really, really spiritual at its heart, at its basis. And I think that the Cumberland Presbyterian Church can continue to grow and share God's word. And I hope my hope is that we will, we will become less legalistic, and I know there's a good reason for, and I and this I just say this for all denominations, not just ours, but I do have hope that we will be less ritualistic and, be more open to new ideas, maybe new ways of worship even. You know? I don't know.
Veronica:But I do think there's hope for for us and for, spirituality and and because I see people say, oh, the world's just, you know, in shape. But I see, like, this like, when I was at Asbury, and then I was there a few days before it got so crazy that people were flying in from all over the world and, you know, the traffic was gridlocked in the whole little town. But I see all of those other colleges that bust in their Christian student unions or whoever wanted to come, I guess. And they were taking that out and sharing that with other people. I mean, there were colleges in Texas and Ohio and places that had prayer meetings and, asked for an outpouring.
Veronica:And, you know, I just I just feel like that we are on the brink and maybe even, no, I feel like we are already involved in one of the greatest revivals in this country and in this world that I've ever known. So I think Jesus is alive and doing well.
T.J.:What are your hopes for Cumberland Presbyterian Women's Ministry? What dreams do you have for it?
Veronica:Well, it's gonna be interesting to see how we operate with, you know, with our it's not a separation of from the general assembly. It's it's a meeting separation, but it's going to be interesting to see how that grows and develops. I the plan right now that we have, we voted in last year was that every, we would have convention every other year and on alternate years, we would have a denomination wide retreat. And that that would be a little different than anything we've ever done, but it would be an opportunity to, rest and revive ourselves as much as as the and the business meetings would only take, place at the conventions. But those alternate years would be a time of revival and restoring for for the rest of us.
Veronica:So that's one of the things that I see that I think will be that will be positive because I do think that we do get so caught up, and I understand it completely, but we do get so caught up in, you know, work and ball games and all those things that and we try to do them all because, you know, that's what we do, that we just, we don't take time to time to, rest and restore ourselves.
T.J.:So the the alternate years of convention, at at least the business end of convention, the the focus is to relax, restore, be regenerated, fellowship.
Veronica:Yes.
T.J.:To do the missions and the ministry and the outreach that the women's ministry has always been called to do in the history of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Veronica:Yes. Yes.
T.J.:Well, have you have you heard the question, well, we've never done that before since you raised that question earlier?
Veronica:Yes. I have. Yes. I have. I have heard that.
Veronica:And and, I think that that the people who say that, they really do. Like, we've done this we've been doing it this way for 50 years. It's always worked. What's the deal? I don't I don't think it's an I don't think they insult your question or the person that's asking that.
Veronica:I just think they really don't see any need to do it a different way. Mhmm. But, you know, if you look at your numbers, you might see a good reason. They're not always what they should be, our attendance numbers.
T.J.:Veronica, what music or movies or books are you into that is helping you in your faith and helping you in your life?
Veronica:Well, you ask. So there there are a few things that, that I have been interested in and stumbled across. Like I said, I retired, a few years ago and began reading. Yeah. I had a little more time for reading.
Veronica:And, I just came across a book called The Shack by John Paul Young, and that was a powerful book to me. And I and I know that the reason that it was a powerful book to me was was because it made Jesus so real. And I'm not saying it wasn't real before. I've always known he was real, of course, but it just made him so, more, so much more approachable, I guess. You portray him
T.J.:Real in the sense of human as in humanity or real real in what way for you?
Veronica:I think that that it probably was that he was 100% human, 100% god. He he was real and that it helps me to know that he understood our experiences, and that he loved us right through them. And he loved us anyway even when we made bad choices or I mean, he loved Peter even when Peter denied him 3 times. So I think that I think that was part of it. Then this this I don't know if you're familiar with the, series The Chosen.
T.J.:I've heard of it.
Veronica:Just stumbled across that. And, once again, it made all of the bible and Nicodemus is real to me now, and I can so relate to him. You know? He just he so wanted to follow Jesus, but he so didn't wanna give up his lifestyle. So that that is a good series to me.
Veronica:Right now, I'm reading the cup and the chalice because that is the history of the women's ministry, and that's that's interesting as well. Several several years ago, I read a book called Christie written by George Marshall, I believe. I believe that's right. But it was it was a book where she was very frustrated. Christy was very frustrated.
Veronica:I believe she was a school teacher in the maybe 1800, early 1900 maybe. But she was so frustrated with God that she went up on the hill and she beat her fist and questioned him. And, it was okay to question God. She learned that it was okay to question God, that she got her answers. You know?
Veronica:So that that was a a moment for me. Right now, the bible study at the gift house is, traveling light by Max Lucado. Mhmm. And that that's an interesting book that helps me understand so many things that I take so seriously that that I don't have to.
T.J.:Veronica, what advice, what words of encouragement do you have for young women?
Veronica:There are so many areas that we go with that, but, I encourage young women to to take care of themselves. You cannot be a good mother, a good teacher, a good wife, a good if you don't take care of yourself, and that's physically and spiritually and emotionally. I I know that I know that it is ultimately important that in any relationship that you seek God's advice and that you follow God's advice, it will just make all of those relationships, friendships, work relationships, career jobs, all of those things, better if you do that. And I would also encourage them to not to try to do everything. That it's okay not to do everything and not to be good at everything.
Veronica:Of course, be the best that you can be, but you don't have to be the best at everything, and that's an important one.
T.J.:Veronica, thank you for your time. Thank you for walking me through your faith journey and sharing your wisdom and your insights and your tidbits for life. And I've enjoyed this time with you.
Veronica:Thank you.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to The Cumberland Road. To hear more faith journeys like Veronica's, subscribe and follow Cumberland Road on Apple Podcast and Spotify. And if you like this podcast, please share with others. Veronica mentioned the book Hearth and Chalice by James w Knight. And so I close this podcast with the opening paragraph from Beverly Saint John. Hearth and chalice is the story of a church responding to its understanding of mission in the real world of political and social religious ferment. But it is a story that cannot be told without recalling the women who overcame the obstacles of inferior status, social taboos, limited educational opportunities, and frequent hostile opposition as they determined to do what they had to do in response to God's call. And so they laid their lives on the lines of their Christian commitment and aspirations and carved for us a gallant legacy of Christian love and service.
