Victor Hassell - This Is Not The End; There Is More
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. This is The Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. Pulling together a weekly podcast has really deepened my understanding of the real vulnerability we take in being authentic and honest with one another. A risk is taken in the sharing of ourselves and how we might be heard and perceived and perhaps even rejected. Today's guest becomes vulnerable and shares his faith journey that includes loss, some suffering, and mistakes. However, as Victor Hassell shares with me in the conversation, he says, this is not the end. There is more. I can feel the weight of Victor's words in our conversation as he expresses his love for those who are called into ministry, the love for the stranger, and his love for the church. Join with me in this conversation on Cumberland Road with Reverend Victor Hassell, pastor at the Sturgis Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
T.J.:Victor, thank you for joining me on the podcast. I'd have to say that out of all the Cumberland Presbyterian ministers that I know, I'd have to say that you are probably one who is the most attune and sensitive to other people's feelings and and beliefs. And I think you're maybe one of the most fearless in saying I'm sorry. And I've always admired that about you because pride often gets in my way where I have difficulty saying I'm sorry. But you have no difficulty. Why is that something I've admired about you?
Victor:It's no I fail. First of all, thanks for having me on. It's a honor to be on here and talking to you today, TJ. But, no, I just try to be real. One of my goals in life is to do the right thing.
Victor:And, I know I fail at that often and to say I'm sorry or to admit when I'm wrong is I mean, I just I just hope that other people can feel that and know that, you know, we mess up and I mess up. So
T.J.:Those words are often hard to say and express to another person. And, it just seems to come with ease from you and also sincere and something I've admired admired about you.
Victor:Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
T.J.:So, Victor, I've jumped in with that question. Tell folks where you're serving and who you are, just what you've been up to?
Victor:I'm Victor Hassell. I'm a pastor at the Conroe Presbyterian Church in Sturgis, Kentucky. I serve alongside my wife. Everyone says I'm married up in the right. She's a wonderful pastor, a wonderful wife, mother, and, we've been here for almost 14 years, which is unbelievable to even now.
Victor:So yeah we've been here for a while and love the people here. And we have 3 kiddos. Victoria, she is a U of L Global, so, we don't get to see her as often. Mallory is our middle child. She's 16 and learning how to drive.
Victor:And then we have John who is well, who keeps us busy, with sports. Actually, Mallory does as well playing soccer. So, yeah, it's kinda crazy around here sometimes, but fun as well. So
T.J.:That's right. I've seen pictures of John. He looks like a spitting image of you. I don't know what you looked like when you were younger, but I imagine it looks like John.
Victor:Yes. Bless his heart. Sad for him.
T.J.:So. Well, as, as an individual who's been in excuse me. As an individual that's been in ministry for quite some time, share with me a a meaningful experience that you've had with God.
Victor:Growing up, my family, we we didn't, go to church that often. My dad was church of Christ and my mother was baptist. So like I said, we didn't go to church that often. But my grandparents would always come and pick me up and and take me to church. They would see to it.
Victor:And my grandfather died when I was about 5, and my grandmother, she never learned how to drive. But whoever would pick her up, to go to church to take her to church, she would make sure that they would pick me up as well. And,
T.J.:Oh, wow. It was like a package deal.
Victor:Yeah. Exactly.
T.J.:If you pick me up, you have to pick up my grandchildren.
Victor:Yes. Yes. And and so, I remember brother Marlon Stevens, actually, when my grandfather died. I'll never forget, we were the the funeral was at the church and then, after the service, they would roll the casket out to, the narthex, and, the pastor would stand beside the casket and they would shake his hand and everything. And the family was last, and I remember taking off my mom and and parents, and I ran up to the casket where brother Marlon was.
Victor:And I remember him picking me up and shaking everyone's hand as he held me. And I was like 5 years old. And so maybe a little bit older, but he held me the whole time. And I still remember that today. It's like he he saw a a kid and I was important to him, even though I was a kid.
Victor:And so that has been played a major role in my ministry as well as being able to see children, not just as children, but as children of God who have, who need to be listened to as well. So, that was a meaningful experience.
T.J.:Did you have a prior relationship with him? Deb, did you know who he was?
Victor:Yes. Yes. He was he was the pastor at the church that my grandparents attended. And so, I remember he wore a suit, and I always wanted a suit. And I had I made my mom go get me a suit, when I was real little because I wanted to be like brother Marlin.
Victor:And man, that was a long time ago. But that I don't know. That spoke to me. Of course, I didn't always go to church and everything, but, I just remember him. And, that little gesture to me meant more than he even imagined.
Victor:And I was able to tell him that not that long ago as well that how much that meant to me.
T.J.:Oh, wow. How did he react?
Victor:He could I mean, like, tears, in his eyes. It's like, wow. He said, you never know, do you? I was like, no, sir, you don't. And it's actually, he's retired and he was working at a, a funeral home and I was, and I came back and I was the minister at the funeral.
Victor:And so it was kind of odd, me being the preacher and him, you know, working there at the funeral home. So it was interesting to to experience, to say the least.
T.J.:Any other individuals that have had a great impact on your journey? That was a really early one.
Victor:Right. Like I said about my family, we didn't attend church that often, but then later on in life we did. But, when I was in high school, my father gets sick. He, had cancer and, anyway, he ended up passing away and I was, a baseball player. And, I had set out, I was, I was going to Dyersburg State trying to play baseball, work full time and, and go to school full time and it just wasn't working out.
Victor:And so, I stopped doing that and just worked full time while my dad was sick. And then when my dad passed away, I was in really, it was a really dark moment in my life and I just really struggled. And I was working at a grocery store that I had worked at in high school. I went back and I was a manager there. And my dad's old baseball coach came to the store one day and he, he told me, he said, you know, Victor, the whole world continues to move forward, And you can either stay still and get left behind, or you can get up and move on.
Victor:And, that spoke a lot to me as well. I mean, that really hit home to me and it made a lot of sense because I could either sit there and drown in my sorrows or get up and move on. And then he also asked me, and he knew, he knows how much I love baseball. And he said, how would you like to play baseball again? And he's like, I would love to go back and play baseball.
Victor:I thought that I, you know, wouldn't be able to do that again since I had quit and everything. And so a couple of days, he asked me, when is your next day off? And so he came by my house, picked me up, and he took me to Bethel College. Note, I was not Cumberland Presbyterian. Really didn't.
Victor:I mean, the only thing I knew about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church was that I used to attend Vacation Bible School in the Yorkville CP church. So that's all I knew about the CP church. So he told me, he introduced me to coach Hayes at Bethel. And the next thing you know, I'm attending Bethel College, back then Bethel College and playing baseball. And, the reason I say, I mean, that's a God experience for me was, coach Sonny, Sonny Ferra is his name.
Victor:He's a current president. He saw something in me that I couldn't see at the time and he saw more in me that I could even fathom. And so it was not about going back to play baseball. It was about moving forward. It was about picking someone up that was down and and leave him along.
Victor:And he never I mean, it's not like he read scripture to me, didn't pray with me. No. He saw something in me that I couldn't see.
T.J.:So let's let's go back a little bit. I wanna ask you a question. As a young man who just experienced the death of his father and and, you know, you finish up school, high school, and then you're managing your grocery store, What was going through your mind? What what ambitions did Victor have in that moment of what the future might hold for him?
Victor:Very little. Very little.
T.J.:And We're we're gonna get I mean, you've already alluded to where you are today and the joys of family and, of course, ministry. But I was really curious of of Victor at, you know, what, 20 18, 19, 20 years old. What was he thinking in terms of the future of work, of life,
Victor:faith? Faith, I was mad. I was I was mad at God. I was, I mean, up until the day that my dad died, I mean, he died at 3 o'clock in the morning on Halloween, up until 2:45, 2:50, I thought he was gonna live. I was naive.
Victor:I mean, I just thought God was gonna heal him in a way that I wanted God to heal him. And in those moments, I mean, I shut down. I was in a very bad place. Just, I turned to everything that I possibly could. I wanted to die.
Victor:There were moments that, yeah, I mean, just, I wanted to end it. I wanted to not face anyone. I remember pastors, the pastor of the church that I was attending as a teenager, he came to visit. I met him, I was leaving, I was leaving, he was headed toward my house and I kept on going because I didn't wanna talk to him. I didn't wanna part of anything in those moments.
Victor:And so really for him to come and say those things to me, it changed my life. It really gave me a glimmer of hope because I thought I was going nowhere.
T.J.:And it was baseball, and the possibility of baseball and playing is what helped helped you heal.
Victor:Right. Yeah. Yeah.
T.J.:So you're at Bethel, and you're on the team. And how, Victor, how did you get tied into a call to the ministry of the word and the sacraments?
Victor:Crazy. Crazy is all I so baseball lasted about a semester. Honestly, I, I I was hurt. I hurt my, shoulder. I actually hurt my elbow, in high school and ended up in my shoulder.
Victor:I am a pitcher. And so when I got to Bethel, I was doing pretty good. But I just wasn't me anymore. My dad always preached like, you need to throw a 100 pitches a day, no matter what it is outside, snowing, raining, you need to go out and throw some pitches. And actually right before he died, about 2 weeks before he died, he told me, because I was mad because we're big Atlanta Braves fans and I got it from him.
Victor:And I was mad because the Florida Marlins were gonna be in the world series. And I was telling him like, I can't believe this is happening, all this stuff. And he looked at me and tells me that baseball isn't everything. And quite honestly, it pissed me off. I mean, to be frank, sorry.
Victor:I mean, it's like, are you freaking kidding me? You who preached baseball, baseball, baseball all my life, and now telling me that baseball is not everything. Well, I carried that with me to Bethel. And so I'm on the field and I just, my head's not in it at all. And I mentioned that my shoulder was hurt and I was taking these ice water, I would have to get an ice water bath after every practice.
Victor:And, I just remember going to, the coaches and it's like, look. I can't do this anymore. And they're like, what are you talking about? You're gonna get to pitch. You you are gonna get to play a lot.
Victor:And I'm like, I can't do it. And and I walked away from it. And so how did I get into the ministry? Chaplain Anne Haines, She was hosting, well, Bethel was hosting what they called CPYF at the time. And, a lot of youth would come in from all over for a weekend.
Victor:And, she came to me one day and said, Victor, I want you to, lead in a bible study with Bubba, your roommate. I was like, do you know who you're talking to? You don't want me to do anything like that because honestly, like I said, I was in a bad way. I didn't care. I didn't care about anything really.
Victor:And even though I had this glimmer of hope that coach said it'd give me, I was still in a bad way. And, but, yeah, she comes to me one day and says, I want you to to teach along with Bubba. And, I was like, you don't want me to do that? And she said, I'm not asking you, you're gonna do it. And, and that day, well, and so I did, and, I remember all these students showing up and, one of the chaperones, I was messing, just kidding around with her and stuff and talking to her, and, and I'll come back to her in a second, but, I was just cutting up and I was a big flirt and stuff.
Victor:So anyway, we're going to teach these youth and I'm sitting there just sitting there with Bubba and he's sitting there talking and, all of a sudden I hear, Victor, this is what I want you to do. And I look around and Bubba's teaching and some of the kids are asleep and some of the kids are listening to Bubba talk. And I'm like, who's talking to me? And I hear, this is what I want you to do. And, I leave, my Bubba is sitting there teaching, I take off and I run back to my dorm, and I slam the door, And as I slam the door, I hear something fall.
Victor:And, I'm laying on the bed crying. It's like, what in the world? Who is talking? This is nuts. This is crazy.
Victor:And, and I heard that sound. And and so I go back and I open the door and there is this cassette tape, yes, a cassette tape wrapped in paper. And I'll show you, I have it today. And it's from that lady that I met, one of the chaperons, and she says, dear Victor, alias, fireman, This is the day of salvation the Lord has worked for you to do. Read Joel 2, then listen to the tape several times.
Victor:If you wanna hear more, I have more from other prophets to send you. And she just goes on. She said, what I see and feel since is that God is using you as a key point on that campus. Repentance will only come through prayer and a broken heart. As the Lord leads, go as often as He leads to the log cabin there on campus and pray for that school, God's school system.
Victor:Be diligent, be passionate. And she goes on and then she says, and, PS, grab Bubba or another friend and go take, go and take Bubba there, to pray with you. Don't listen to the garbage of I'm not worthy or, on our own. We're all about as worthy as snot. And, she said, yes.
Victor:I said, it's not. We're slimy, a nuisance, a plug, things up when we're not running, misery. But in Jesus, we are as gold. And so I hear while Bubba's teaching, this is what I want you to do. I take off running, and I met this lady one time, and this is what she senses in me.
Victor:And that's the experience. I mean, and I ran, by the way. I ran forever. I go back home after several months, and and I go to my mom's church and during the hymn of response, I go up and I tell the ministers, like, look, this is what I'm feeling and I don't know what to do with it because why would God call somebody like me? And the minister patted me on the back and he told me to go sit down.
Victor:And he never touched base with me, never came and followed up. And to me, it solidified. It was like, okay, I know that God can't be calling me. And so, that hurt, and then I ran and ran some more.
T.J.:Victor, how far can somebody run? That would be my question.
Victor:Well, it continued until, actually, you know, Samantha actually, after we got married. But, through all of that, god kept on nagging at me. He's like, I mean, would do little things. Like I said, I was a big flirt. I mean, on any given night, I would be in any girl's dorm room, whether they wanted me there or not, just hanging out.
Victor:I mean, like, they get tired, like, leave. You know? It just it's like not because I was or whatever. It was just that I was annoying, I guess, to a lot of girls. But, anyway, I was a big flirt.
Victor:But Victor the then,
T.J.:Victor the uninvited guest.
Victor:Exactly. And so this is why this woman calls me the fireman. Her name's Molly Thompson, by the way. Her daughter, I went to school with her daughter at Bethel. So anyway, Samantha, we got together, we were friends at first and then we started dating.
Victor:And I remember at one point, she asked me if I wanted to go do quiet time, out at the Mackenzie, at the lake, the little lake out there outside of Mackenzie. And so I thought quiet time. Yeah, let's go do some quiet time. You know, not thinking what she was thinking. I remember we were sitting there in the parking lot there at the lake and she reached like she was, like people can see me on the podcast.
Victor:She reached over, like I thought she was gonna wrap her arm around me, but she was reaching behind and she pulled out her Bible and I was like, what are you doing? She said, we're doing quiet time. And she started reading her Bible to me. And that's when I knew that I was gonna marry her as, when she pulled the Bible in, I was like, if you love me enough to share God's word with me, then your word, I wanna marry you because, you know, but, God kept on doing things like that throughout, my years in college. And it wasn't until, Samantha had, answered the call to serve at Woodbine CP Church as youth pastor.
Victor:And we were on our way to actual retreat, the cross retreat here in, Covenant Presbytery. And on the way, I'm driving the van or the bus and kids were all cutting up and everything. Samantha's talking to the kids. I hear, Victor, this is what I want you to do. I hear that, I mean, it was as plain and clear as all get out.
Victor:And I just started just bawling, hiding my face, like, you know, not wanting anyone to see me. And then we get to the retreat and, Curtis Franklin was, preaching, that weekend. And he said, before I get into a lot of stuff, let me tell you about my call. So first thing he says, and at that moment it's like, okay, God, you got me trapped here. You got me in this place.
Victor:And that night, I answered God's call and my mother-in-law just happened to be there and so did my brother-in-law, Marcus Hayes. And, I remember I answered the call, I told Samantha, okay. I I I'm feeling called. And she's like, are you serious? What are you talking about?
Victor:Are you serious? And, and Marcus comes up after I do, and he and he says to me, he said, because you're willing to answer the call tonight, God's been calling me for a long time and just kinda give me what I needed to finally answer. And he was only 15 at the time. And so needless to say, my mother-in-law was pretty happy that night. We hope to answer the call to ministry.
Victor:So here I am, man. I know it's a wild story, but it's it's god.
T.J.:To have these audible messages and still to push them away, how difficult was that in the different times of your life?
Victor:Well, it was at times, it was very difficult. At times, it was very easy. I remember saying it to my family one time, explaining what brother, what the pastor at my mom's church said. And, I told him I felt called and and quite honestly, they'd laughed. Like, I don't think God would call call you.
Victor:I mean, I I didn't, I mean, I didn't make didn't make a lot of good choices growing up. And so when I say, you know, at times it was difficult, but at times it was easy, it was because I felt like that was confirming. It's like, nah, no, God's not calling me to do that. You know, is, is, and I, I go back to this letter, this letter that this lady sent me, Molly, saying that we're all about as worthy, it's not, don't give into that garbage, I gave into that garbage. And for me, to be honest with you, if a lot of people, as I look back on my life, I feel like I remember, okay, I finally answered the call of ministry and I go back home to visit and we're at this, the Yorkle market.
Victor:And my mom I walk in with my mom and I see this lady, and my mom tells or she starts cutting up with me and all this stuff. And and my mom said, did you know that Victor's gonna be a pastor? He answers the call, and the woman turns white, I mean, just so white, and she falls back in her chair and she says, I used to tell you all these dirty jokes at the grocery store. And she was just like, she couldn't believe it. And I mean, like I said, I made a lot of bad choices growing up, but but I feel like today that for me in my calling or when I know that someone else is experiencing the call, I think that we tend to look at individual and we limit God.
Victor:And we look at an individual and we say, God can't call that individual because they're this or they're that, or God can't call him or her because they've done all this stuff. It's like, it's not about them, it's God calling them and we're limiting God. We're saying that what a person's done in their life or who the person is in their life is is more than God. I mean, that God can't do something. And, that's helped me in ministry.
Victor:It's kinda given me a little fire, to be honest with you, just to help to see people.
T.J.:It's real easy to observe another human being and find the flaws in in who they are, by their actions, or inactions, by their words, or lack of words. And I feel challenged time and time again to look at the through those things or beyond those things to the person that god has created. Absolutely. It's another human being, my equal, and maybe in many cases, my superior Yeah. In the terms of how they carry themselves, and live out their faith.
T.J.:Mhmm. But it's still even in adulthood, I still find that challenging. But I'm always pleasantly surprised when somebody subverts my expectations and opens my eyes a little wider and going, man, there's great possibilities here. I'm ashamed I didn't see it earlier, but I'm glad I got to see it and witness it now. And your faith journey, I guess, in a way is that way.
T.J.:You've subverted expectations that people had for you, and clearly, you had for yourself. What's that feel like?
Victor:It's well, I have to watch myself. I remember, a few years ago, my mom was in the hospital. She had breast cancer and, was a survivor there. And, but her that same minister came to visit in the hospital. And, she just saw his face when I I take I took a little maybe took a little too much pride in, like, telling him, like, what was going on in my life and the church that I was serving and how how good things were going there.
Victor:You know, it's like booyah, almost in a way, which is wrong. I know. But at that time, I was like, yeah. Pat me on the back and tell me to go sit down again. And that you know, but at the same time, I look back and, how often do I do that?
T.J.:I believe as people of faith and disciples of Christ, we are given a a unique gift whether we choose to use it or not, the unique gift of perspective and to see beyond the surface. Mhmm. And I think that's a that's a task that we don't often pick up and use. And just show me the highlights, And I'm gonna remember the bad things about Victor, the bad choices that he made.
Victor:Mhmm. And
T.J.:then you're forever defined by those. Right. No one wants that in their own lives. I'm not sure why we would do it to others, because there's so much more to us. There's so much context, so much depth.
T.J.:I guess it's those shallow friendships and acquaintances that we can have, where we can pigeonhole people and just say, TJ is this, Victor is this. And then you've been categorized, and then what an uphill climb. Absolutely.
Victor:And, you know, and and at the same time, TJ, like, it has a lot more to do with me. And I think that's for a lot of people. It's how we see individuals. I mean, we could see an individual as just this person who does this and this and this, or we could choose to see them as the child of God that God created, and that, you know, everyone has a vocation. Everyone has a calling upon their lives, and and what do we choose to see in individuals?
T.J.:Well, that leads to the next question what it asks you is, where are you seeing god working in your life today? We've talked a lot about the past and god working in your life. How about now? How about in 2021?
Victor:Let's just say we have to look very close right now. In in in my life, honestly, for me right now, there are a lot of things going on within our congregation. We just lost a church member, dear friend, only 47 of COVID. There are a lot of whys out there. When I see God within so much of it, I see God in this very faithful individual who's prayed forever for the salvation of her family, for her daughter, her son, and her husband.
Victor:She prayed that that all 3 of them would be more faithful. And I remember seeing God in her daughter as, a doctor gave told her daughter that that her mother only had a 3% chance to live, and and her daughter said, serve a God that's bigger than that, more powerful than that. And those are words that came out of her mom's mouth several times, and I could see that faith, and I could see God in that. And, for me as a pastor to point those things out and and in the midst of tragedy and hurt and pain is is looking for God in the midst of it, knowing that God is gonna bring something good out of this. You know, everything that's going on in the world, God is still working for good, and and and God is still bringing life out of death, and and God is still working.
Victor:And, it's kinda hard to see right now, especially when you're in the battle, when you're when you're in the middle of this tragedy and and spiritual warfare and everything. And and so, just looking to god, looking for god in those things.
T.J.:Victor, what does faith sharing look like to you or sound like to you?
Victor:Hold on. Hold on.
T.J.:It's a question I ask myself often. What does faith sharing look like? I think it's relational.
Victor:It it is. It is. And it's it's pointing to where god is in the midst. And not only that, but knowing, you know, when when I'm standing, in a sanctuary filled
T.J.:to
Victor:capacity with people who love on, there to pay their respects to, the family and, who loved Casey as her name, who who passed away. And is to be able to say, look, look how much people loved her. Look how much God loved her. Look how much God loves you. And and but not only that, TJ, but but to to still believe in a resurrected God, a God of, of resurrection, a God who defeats death, and to, and to say that there's still hope, that, you know, I once heard that there's, 2 sermons preached at every funeral.
Victor:And there's the one that points to the casket is like, I did it to you again. I took another one of your family members. I took another one. I win again. I win again.
Victor:And, but then there's the, there's the one of hope and there's the one of resurrection and one of life that says no, no, this is not the end. There's more. And and to be able to to testify, to to proclaim that there is more than what we're feeling right now. I feel like that's where I see god using me is is to point to that and show that there's more.
T.J.:As somebody who has come into the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination a little bit later in life, in early adulthood, you have a unique perspective, I believe. And so, Victor, I'd like to know, what are your hopes for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church? Where would you like to see it in the future?
Victor:No, TJ. There's a lot of divisiveness right now within the church and a lot of pain, a lot of anger. And I I pray that we could sit down and have conversations and that we can we can still serve in the Carmel Presbyterian Church, whether we believe one thing. I believe one thing and you believe something else. I believe that we can still serve together.
Victor:My prayer is that people would be able to see individuals who are called no matter who they are, their sexuality, their I mean, where they've been, And they can look beyond that and see a child of God that is called into ministry and to embrace their calling. And I know that's very difficult because of other beliefs. And, but I believe God is bigger than what we believe God to be. And and, honestly, I think that sometimes our beliefs become an idol, that we hold on to our beliefs so much that we don't see that God can use someone that's different from us and to embrace someone and to love them. I I
T.J.:You've lived it through the telling of your faith journey. You have lived Yeah. Lived that.
Victor:And I often have a a trouble when we raise individuals up in the church. You know, as Kremlin president, we promise we promise when they're we bring them forward to be baptized, to to pray for individual, to teach them, to, to love them, to one day profess their faith, their own faith as individuals. And I struggle with I can I can serve an individual communion? I can teach them bible study. I can, you know, I can pray with them and help deep them in the faith.
Victor:And then when they it comes time for them to profess their faith or to say, look. I'm being called. It's like, not here. Not here. You can't be called into this.
Victor:You can't be called a ministry because you are this. And and and you're right. I live that. And I think that's why it it it hits home to me so much is that, you know, let's talk a little bit more about this. Let's let's have conversations and at least let's embrace the calling because I believe God is more than our sexuality.
Victor:I believe God is more than than what we've done in the past or what we're doing right now, and and God still calls. And and we embrace that calling somehow. And I don't know what that looks like because it's we are so divided right now, but but I do know that we can have conversations. And that it I don't think it looks, you know, not in a big form setting, not at GA, not at, you know, not at Presbyterian, but 1 on 1, having conversations and working this out because God's still calling. God's gonna use whoever God wants to use.
Victor:And so
T.J.:Yeah. I was having a conversation with a previous guest before we were recording, and similar sentiment was expressed. And we need more talking. We need more dialogue. And finding that those spaces can be hard.
T.J.:I think we've relied on social media for for ways of communication and it's not working. It needs to be I don't know. It needs to be different settings, a different context that has room for nuance, that has room for humor, that has room for for, well, grace.
Victor:Right. Right.
T.J.:And I think, you know, for for the church, I, you know, I think that we are to be inviters to the message of grace. Mhmm. I hope that's where we are and where we continue to be is, because simply, that's really all we have is the ability to invite others to, God's grace and forgiveness. And there's new life in that.
Victor:CJ, I was on a flight, while I was in an airport, and I was waiting to fly to, North Carolina before moving on and heading to, festival of homiletics with one of my friends. And, the flight was delayed because there was a huge storm and, ended up ended up in Raleigh about 2 o'clock in the morning. And I talked to my friend. I was like, they lived about an hour away and he was coming to pick me up. I was like, don't do that.
Victor:Don't do that. I will I will do something. And everything was shut down whenever I got there, and, I decided, well, let me check out Uber and and see how much it would cost to to take an Uber all the way to my friend's house, which is an hour away. You know, it only cost, like, $50, which I was shocked. I was like, I'll do it.
Victor:It's like, I don't wanna pay for a hotel. And and so I just I did it. And, Uber driver asked me what I did. I was like, oh, crap. Here we go.
Victor:And so I told him that I was a pastor, and, he ended up telling me that, that he was gay is what he said. And he said, would you accept me? And I could tell this guy was hurt, and and we we ended up having this conversation for an hour about faith. And and he told he asked me. He said, what about you?
Victor:What about you? Would you would you accept me into your church? Would you, you know, love me? You know, everyone talks about love. Would you?
Victor:And and, I was sitting there, and the only thing that prompt is the communion table, the elements. And every a a lot a lot of times during, communion, I will say this is the invitation to the table. This is not my table. This is not a common Presbyterian table. This is God's table.
Victor:And what dawned on me is, like, all are welcome at God's table. And and I said, absolutely. I would welcome you with open arms. And, I mean, because this is not my table. This is not my calling.
Victor:This is not me. This is God's calling. And and, it led into a conversation about how his his mother and father didn't accept him. And, his his partner it's his partner's parents accepted them, but not his parents, and he longed for that. And I and it brought me back to my dad who had passed away.
Victor:And I thought about all the men that God had placed in my life from the time he passed away to where I am today. And I assured him, it may not be your parents who accept you, but God will and these the people that God placed in your life do not replace your parents, but they are those figures that you need. And, I tell you, we we embraced after it was the craziest Uber drive. I mean, we hugged and, and I pray that God opens something up to that individual. It's like, oh, I am loved by God.
Victor:God does place these other people in my life. And and, I don't know. That's that's kinda where I'm at right now.
T.J.:Well, here's a question that crossed my mind as you were talking. It'll be one I have to chew on for a while. What kind of, perception have we created for ourselves as Christians when another individual is asking, will you love me or do you love me? That's a question I never want posed to me, ever.
Victor:Yeah. Yeah. What does that look like? What does that love look like? I've I've struggled with that.
Victor:I've I've struggled. It's it's why I say that god is greater than what I can believe god to be, because I limit people. I limit god. We all do. But what does that love truly look like?
Victor:You know, there are people that that, come in to our presence every day that get on our nerves that we wish would go away, that we don't really like, why would I wanna share something with them when they don't even take care of themselves and all this stuff? And then I'm reminded. I'm reminded so often. It's like, well, I took care of you. I graced you.
Victor:I I pulled you up out of vehicles, out of the ditches in your life, and and and I loved you. It's like, yes. I love. And god's love is greater than that.
T.J.:Well, Victor, hearing your faith journey has really helped me. I I think I have a better understanding now of what I've bumped into you. And I described at the beginning of the podcast how you seem to be no holds barred in terms of being able to say I'm sorry. I think I understand now more where you're coming from, and I appreciate you sharing your faith journey with me. And the ability to be open and raw in the way that you are definitely definitely indicates why you don't have a problem in in apologizing.
Victor:You know, it's it's one of those things, TJ, is that to know that we could be wrong. And and and I think that that, for me has been helpful because I've not always been, you know, when it comes to beliefs and and talking with other people across the denomination that believe totally different. To ask myself, and I do this all the time, is could I be wrong? Could I be wrong? And, and that's why I don't knock other people for their beliefs.
Victor:And I try to to listen and try to be open to everyone, because could I be wrong?
T.J.:Well, Victor, how can how can we continue to follow you on your faith journey?
Victor:Come visit me. Come come to Sturges, or you can follow us on Facebook live. Our services are on there every Sunday. I think that's the go to these days. We do that, and, you can follow us.
Victor:We we have our church, Facebook page.
T.J.:Stur Sturgis Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Victor:Yes, sir. Yeah. Sturgis, Kentucky.
T.J.:And if we don't find you there, we may find you out on the ball field, soccer field.
Victor:Yeah. More likely. I don't really know what I'm doing in soccer, so I can't yell at the refs or umpires, whatever they're called. But, and so I'm much more laid back.
T.J.:For the lack of knowledge of the game, you don't know what to yell at.
Victor:Exactly. What are you doing? I don't know. But yeah. No.
T.J.:Victor, thank you so much for putting yourself out there, in our conversation and sharing some highs and lows in a life. And it's been a it's a joy to see you and Samantha, sharing a ministry and doing it in place for a long time where you've been able to really get to know people. Yes. And that that says a lot about the ministry. It says a lot about the church that you're serving.
Victor:Thank you so much, TJ. I really I really appreciate you asking me to do this. And
T.J.:Yeah. You you are welcome. And thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with us on our next journey down Coverland Road.
