William Montague - Knowing Who You Are
Welcome to the Cumberland Road. I'm your host TJ Malinoski. The following is the faith journey of Reverend Doctor. William Montague. He is the pastor emeritus at Mount Tabor Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America in Jackson, Tennessee. Doctor Montague has combined multiple lifetimes in just a mere eighty two years. He is a minister. He has worked on a railroad dining car while in college. Instructor for special purpose equipment and vehicles for the United States Army. Assistant District Scout Executive for the Boy Scouts of America in Brooklyn, New York. He was a prison deputy warden, a prison teacher, a prison principal, jail administrator, and prison operations administrator, and probably much, much more than I know of. We recorded this conversation in Doctor. Montague's office. And with my inexperience, I unknowingly had the microphones running hot, meaning the gain was too high. This makes part of our conversation crackle and pop. I tried to rectify this in editing, but for those who aren't, for those who are in the know, once that crackle and pop is there, it isn't coming out. So for the suboptimal recording, I apologize and will continue to strive to improve with every faith conversation I have. Anyway, here is my faith conversation with Reverend Doctor. William Montague.
T. J.:Can you recall your earliest encounter with god where god just was sort of on your radar for the first time?
William:I think my earliest encounter with god would be as a child. I grew up in a household of old Presbyterians in North Carolina, primarily my grandfather, my paternal grandfather, my grandmother, my mother. My father was deceased by the way, and he happened to have been a Presbyterian USA minister who had graduated from Lincoln University in Pennsylvania. And he died early before I was born in his thirties. So the encounter with God came from a knowledge of him and a knowledge of talking with the people in the neighborhood and my parents and god and grandparents.
William:I think I also encountered god in my daily activities of playing. I realized that there had to be a special being in my life who loved me based on what I saw around me in terms of the natural environment with the sun shining. I can always remember sunshiny days growing up in in North Carolina, Fayetteville, North Carolina. And they just they're very pleasant environment. Also, I would have to look at the way that I was related to by the neighbors and the other people.
William:They treated me nice as a child.
T. J.:Let's talk more about your childhood. What was it like growing up in Fayetteville, North Carolina?
William:Growing up in Fayetteville, North Carolina during the '19 the late nineteen forties into the fifties and on into the sixties was a relatively pleasant experience. Unfortunately, those were the days of segregation in The United States and all over. But we as African Americans, black people, or colored people that we were called at the time were acclimated into this. So we just we just simply accepted this as another part of the reality, not really expecting anything to change. However, people were people and they were nice.
T. J.:When you were a kid growing up, what did you dream about becoming?
William:Oh, a lot of things I dreamed about becoming. One of the things I dreamed about becoming was a minister, and that's something I had to sort out. And that might have been because of the influences of my grandparents and my neighbors. The idea back then was if if your father was a professional or whatever, that's what you would be.
T. J.:Alright.
William:And considering that my father was a minister, the conversation generally went something like this. Your daddy was a preacher. He was a fine preacher. You're going to be a preacher, aren't you? Well, I don't know.
William:Maybe I will. But if you're going to be a preacher and especially a Presbyterian preacher, remember one thing, you're going to have to go to school which is fine. Mhmm. That's that's what I knew well ahead to do. It's always been a part of my life.
William:Mhmm.
T. J.:Yeah, since I've known you, you've highly valued education. Yes, I did.
William:I also took on an interest in reading when I was young. As a matter of fact, I my sister and I probably read every book in the little library that we had in the community. It was a little two room library, possibly about as big as this cabin. Little two room library downtown in the on the one of the main streets in Fayetteville, and it was upstairs. And we would probably stop in there every day coming from school, and then on the weekends and so forth, we would check our books and take them home and read them along with what my neighbors gave me.
T. J.:What were some of your favorite books coming up of age that you still recall?
William:That's kind of hard. I'll use the Huckleberry Finn stories and the Tom Sawyers and all of that. Yeah. But there were several others. I was also encouraged to look for black office.
William:And interestingly enough, there was a right across the street from me in Fayetteville on Gillespie Street was the home of an an author, an African American author named Charles Waddell Chestnut. His sisters would and the other neighbors too would constantly encourage me to read and they were always giving me books to read.
T. J.:Okay. That's not bad.
William:Of course, now, some of these books were a little bit out of my range but I tried anyway.
T. J.:Tell me how important growing up the life of the church was for you. You know, in this day and age, you know, church is seen as an option or maybe it's not even an option anymore. It's just not on people's radar but I know for a lot of families, church was integral to their weekly activities.
William:The church was very important to me. As a matter of fact, right on the little street where I lived was a little Methodist church. It was called Maddox Memorial AME Zion Church. That was right on the street. And as a child from the time that I was little, I was able to walk.
William:I was encouraged and trained to walk down to Maddox on Sunday morning for Sunday school and later on stay for church. But when I became of age such as the age of 12, 13, 14, where I could walk on downtown by myself, I was encouraged to go through the family's church, which was Haymount Presbyterian Church, USA. That was an amazing unusual experience in that. I think the folks kind of catered to me a little bit because of my father being a former Presbyterian minister.
T. J.:What kind of things did they do to sort of cater or favor you?
William:Well, one example was like being being elected to go to summer camp.
T. J.:Okay.
William:And the church took care of it. One of one of one another example was being selected for certain positions in the youth fellowship such as being an usher, singing in the young people's choir, little speaking engagements all the time. All all the time with plays and all that.
T. J.:During your teenage years, how well did your faith carry over into the other aspects of your life? I mean, did you have faith conversations when you were in school or when you were outdoors or in other settings in the town or or were those considered kind of like separate things?
William:No, it was always a part. I remember. It's some interesting that you should ask that. I remember once you're getting into a fight with another little felon, I don't know why.
T. J.:How old were you?
William:Oh, maybe 14, 13. I don't know. Mhmm. But I remember one of the persons yelling from the sideline, Howard, and I was called Howard then after my father, my deceased father, Howard Montague. That was my full name as they called my full name, William Howard Montague Junior.
William:But I was always addressed as Howard. Alright. But I remember this young lady yelling out from the sidelines, Howard, you know better than that. You know, somebody's fighting. Your grandma and granddaddy taught you better than that, whatever.
William:You know?
T. J.:Well, that wasn't helping you win the fight. No.
William:It was not. But it was good because I can remember it was very convenient because I had a I had a metal swagger stick. I don't know if you ever seen one of these military swagger sticks.
T. J.:No. Like for a horse or?
William:No. We were located close to Fort Bragg.
T. J.:Okay.
William:And so some of the little stores out in the city sold military memorabilia and jump whatever, but I remember this little swagger stick was made of one end was the butt end of a 50 caliber shell, and the the blunt point was actual actual shell, and it was attached to a metal rod in the center. Actually, it could've hurt you if you hit somebody with it.
T. J.:So you're carrying this around?
William:I don't know why, but I was carrying the swagger stick around, and I got into a fight and almost used it on the guy's head, which would have been disastrous. But I remember getting into this fight, I remember this young lady yelling from the sidelines, Howard, you don't need to be doing this. You know, your grandparents wouldn't like it. You're not supposed to do. Yeah.
William:And then they said, you're gonna be a preacher. Yeah. Okay.
T. J.:It's funny that that's what you recall in a fist fight because normally, I think of the fist fights that I was in. I don't remember the what was happening around me. I just remember that, that moment and who I fought and who won and who lost. And, but you remember someone calling out early on early on, hey, this is not you.
William:Yeah. This is not you. Right. Yeah.
T. J.:Well, after you graduated high school
William:Well, that's another thing. My high school experience in Fayetteville was with elementary, junior high, and part of the high school. But in the tenth grade, I went to a Presbyterian private school where you lived and worked on the farm down in Burke County, Georgia.
T. J.:Okay.
William:The school was named Boggs Academy, b o g g s. Boggs Academy and it was a Presbyterian private prep school. At the time, this was in the late 50s and going into this 1960.
T. J.:Just just for boys, males?
William:No, this was a school.
T. J.:Okay.
William:Was it integrated? No, it was not. No schools that, are you kidding? Oh, this was in the fifties. No, it was a black school.
William:Okay. Yeah.
T. J.:Why? I didn't want to age you out. I didn't know.
William:Well, I'm already 82. So, what else? Yeah. 82 and counting, by the way. Alright.
William:Boggs Academy. Boggs Academy located in in the address located Keysville, Georgia. However, Boggs was roughly about 10 miles from a little town called Waynesboro, Georgia. It was in the middle in the middle and strictly the middle of nowhere with a a several hundreds of acres of farmland, and the school operated on the idea of student labor. Student labor provided labor for the farm, which grew mostly all of the foods that we ate, including the pork and the beef, and, of course, the other foods which could be canned.
William:We had a canning plant. They were these foods were cooked and served in the dining hall. The students provided all the labor for all this, by the way. And when we weren't working, we were in school or in church. Alright.
T. J.:How did you get connected to Boggs Academy?
William:Boggs was a Presbyterian school. My mother was teaching in Burke County, Georgia, Waynesboro, and she knew about it from the community. And she decided later on that this would be an excellent place for me to be, especially as I was growing up because it would hopefully keep me out of trouble.
T. J.:Did it work?
William:Yeah. It did work.
T. J.:So, it sounds like your life was pretty regimented during your high school years.
William:It was regimented.
T. J.:And that prepared you for the military.
William:No, it prepared me for Knoxville College.
T. J.:Oh, okay.
William:Even though I did want to go into the military which happened after college. Boggs paved the way for me to go to Knoxville College which was also another Presbyterian USA College located in Tennessee. Knoxville, by the way. And at Knoxville College, I stayed the four years plus an extra semester to get classes and education so that I could get my teachings.
T. J.:And so you got your teacher's certificate?
William:I think I got my bachelor of science in education with a major in history. And then I went to work of all places with a a group that you know well, Boy Scouts of America as a as an assistant district scout executive out of New York City. Okay. And the first borough I was assigned to, I'm trying to think, was a little a little group over in Brooklyn. Yeah, that's right because when I came back from Vietnam, I was assigned to the Bronx.
T. J.:Alright. So, you went straight from Knoxville College to New York? Yes. So, what a change. You you.
T. J.:Well. So, you went from North Carolina to Georgia to Tennessee, East Tennessee, and then to a large city like Brooklyn.
William:Well, it wasn't that hard to do because one of the things I did during the summers for college for work study was I was fortunate to keep my grades up enough to be selected for one of the railroad jobs at the time which was a dining car waiter.
T. J.:Okay.
William:And that is if you kept your grades up.
T. J.:So you would do this during the summer?
William:During the summertime. At first, for the first three summers of 1961, '62, '63, and I'm thinking part of '64. I worked for Union Pacific Railroad out of Ogden, based out of Ogden, Utah, and that took me all the way down to Los Angeles, California. We also had runs running from Ogden to Las Vegas, Nevada, and then we had one run from Ogden down to Los Angeles back to St. Louis, and then back.
William:And then we had some time to run run from Ogden to Chicago and back. And anywhere else the train wanna run.
T. J.:Tell me more about life on a dining car. So did you sleep in the in the dining car? What what was
William:the first time? Sleep in the dining car. Believe it or not, the railroad at that time had what they called a dormitory car. Okay. It was a special railroad car that had rooms in it.
William:When I look at this cabin sometimes, I think I remember the space. The space was highly cramped. It was a four guys, so a little space, and there was a washbasin in the center Okay. Between the bunks. That's where you had to clean up in the morning.
William:Unfortunately, Union Pacific did not have showers. That was only on the sometimes some of the Western railroads like Southern Pacific.
T. J.:Alright.
William:Where the water's always cold.
T. J.:Well, did you have like a little locker to keep your stuff in or?
William:No, you had just you you stuff your your personal items were in a little suitcase and you took them up to the little room you were assigned to and they normally went under the bed, under the bunks.
T. J.:Okay.
William:And you didn't carry that much with you on the trip. Sure. Now, change change of clothes.
T. J.:So how long would the run be? So how long would you be on the train in between breaks?
William:The average run would be sometimes two to three, sometimes four days.
T. J.:How this is gonna be a strange question. But how did you keep your your work clothes pressed and clean and because you're working all day in it, multiple meals.
William:The railroad provided a jacket, and you carried your underwear, two or three pairs of black pants. And these things stayed fresh out because what you would do was when you made up your bunk in the morning, you would fold your pants and put them under your pillow. And the weight of that kept your pants kinda pressed.
T. J.:When you stopped in the city, you know, and and had your day off, did they provide housing for you then? Yes.
William:For example, when we did the run from Ogden, Utah down to Los Angeles, at one time, we were in Los Angeles for two days.
T. J.:Okay.
William:So, that means the railroad gave you a hotel room. Right. Where all the crusade. And leaving and getting back on the train and crossing them back over from Los Angeles all the way into Saint Louis, Missouri. You had another hotel room in Saint Louis.
William:However, the St. Louis shop was one night only. And then going down to Las Vegas, it was normally one night overnight. And I'm trying to think wherever else was normally one or two nights.
T. J.:So this summer job gave you the opportunity to travel big parts of the country, but it also gave you the opportunity to meet people and interact with people. Any stories stick out? Very much.
William:Sometimes I had to I had to get used and put up with the racism of being called boy, which was impolite and mean. And, also, I had to train myself not to overreact. Let's go ahead and serve the customer. And I adopted the attitude. I'm gonna look at you today, but I'm not gonna see you anymore, which was sometime wrong.
William:You're see them again.
T. J.:Yeah. That does help when dealing with difficult people. The ability to be able to go, okay, my interaction with you is limited because of travel or work or, or whatever it may be. Does sort of soften it a bit, that it's not a long term toleration to rudeness or racism or in some cases even just evil. It'd be like, I only have to deal with this evil for a short period of time.
William:Right. Or you could get even with them sometimes by putting a little extra hot sauce in the in the salad dressing or whatever. That's mean but whatever. Well,
T. J.:I don't know if I promote that, but it does. I, I imagine temporarily sort of, satisfy. Yeah. The soul.
William:It did.
T. J.:Temporarily. What, what other interesting experiences did you have during your dining car and and really just as a young man? Because at this point, you're a young man. You're an adult. You're in school.
T. J.:You're working during the summer.
William:Well, a lot of the work started at the high school because at Boggs Academy, the students I stayed there during the summers and worked on the farm. At Boggs Academy, I was assigned to the farm crew, which means that which meant that I had the responsibility of the entire growing process of a of plants to include planting them, applying the fertilizer, praying for rain, and sometimes when when they when they concern the beef herd that we were maintaining on the on the little ranch we had, myself and other fellas had to rotate the cows to different pastures and that means turning into a crude cowboy.
T. J.:Alright, on foot or on horseback?
William:Are you kidding? This was a little black school out in the middle of the country. We didn't have any horses. Alright.
T. J.:We had foot, feet. Okay. With dogs or without dogs?
William:Oh, are you kidding too? Again? Right. We yelled at the cows.
T. J.:I'm learning so much. Okay.
William:And also, we to literally take care of these little animals. I remember learning such little things with calves. Calves would develop conditions called pink eye. So that meant that as a young wrangler or whatever, you had to grab the little calf around the neck, which was hard, put your fingers in the nose and twist the head to squirt medication in the eyes for pink eye. And by that time the cow careful step on your foot, well, you know, that could be odd too and hurting.
William:So the dining car work was quite the contrast. Oh, yes. It was. To You were clean and in a nice air conditioned dining car inside.
T. J.:Dealing with difficult people, but it's a trade off, I guess, between difficult livestock and
William:It was, but you had to depend a lot on your memory, remembering what customers wanted, talking with them intelligently, of course, about the meal I was prepared and so forth, and also where you were going and all that.
T. J.:Yeah. So tell me the trick on that. I never worked in the restaurant industry. What is the trick to be able to some waiters are able to memorize without writing down what people order, their drinks to the food, to how the food's prepared?
William:Well, one of the good things was that the menus on the railroad were always standard. So if you were on a Chicago to Los Angeles or Chicago to St. Louis or from Ogden, say whatever, You knew what the menus were and you got used to that.
T. J.:Okay.
William:Now, sometime when it came to preparation, in the event that someone would ask you, you learn how to talk to the cooks. The railroad normally carried about four cooks on a standard when I'm using expression, I'm gonna use the expression on a standard crack train. And when I say a crack train, I'm talking about a one of the best trains. On some of the best trains, you would have a crew of four cooks and seven waiters. And when you're doing your little break chimes and all, you were doing a little you do you would do a little inquiring.
William:How did you make this or whatever? Mhmm. And, also, you were right there in the right across from the kitchen in the area called the pantry, and you could see what was going on. Also, the waiters had to partly prepare some of the items such as salads and sometimes desserts.
T. J.:When you work that hard and that long on the dining car and you're a young man and you you really you don't have a permanent place to lay your head because of your work. Where is where is your faith at this place and time in your life?
William:You had I had you had to have a good faith in god. Now, one of the advantages on that was when you were in the little town where you were living. For example, doing the western runs with Union Pacific Railroad, I lived in Ogden, Utah. And I specifically remember two little black churches in the little town. One was a Baptist church and one was a Methodist church.
William:And we took turns kind of alternating between churches depending on where you were living. For example, I remember when I was living with missus Berliner, she was an old railroad widow who rented rooms out to college students. We went to the Baptist Church because that's where she went.
T. J.:Alright. Yeah. So help me in the place of chronology. So you finish up at Knoxville College, and then you relocate into Brooklyn for Scouting. Scouting.
T. J.:So let's pick up from there, and can you walk me through that?
William:Getting into scouting, Boy Scouts of America at the time was doing a super recruiting job. Are you getting warm in here? I'm good. Okay. Boardshelves of America was doing a super recruiting job, and then the greater New York councils, they realized that they needed to put a big emphasis on hiring a group of black or African American assistant district executives because the if they wanted if they were going to garner little black kids, especially in the inner city, you had to have some black executives.
William:So that's where it paid off. And in order to start this, they started a recruiting program at Knoxville College for the execs. And what they did was they would join you up with a local scouting unit to where you learned a lot of the basics from the of a volunteer level, from the executive level down to the volunteer level of what the program was about fully.
T. J.:What was it about that job that appealed to you?
William:The job the appeal to me was the the meeting of different people, learning all of the different nuances of what scouting was about, being able to talk to people on all different levels. And that was highly important in New York City.
T. J.:Had you ever envisioned yourself working with, well, and adults?
William:Well I was not working with kids by the way.
T. J.:So this was all This was strictly adults.
William:My job dealt with recruiting volunteers, adult volunteers to work with scouting programs and also finding viable units such as a church or a business or a civic organization to sponsor and maintain the unit.
T. J.:Alright. So tell me, how does a transplant to Brooklyn go out and recruit, folks who are working jobs, trying to raise their kids, and just trying to make it. Maybe the scouts
William:Well, what what I deal with. I did that through I did that through becoming familiar with the the volunteer units who were going to sponsor a troop. Okay. For example, a church. And I would meet with the church officials and take some time to explain the program to them.
William:And then we would start and go from there. Okay. Or if it was a business or a civic group, I would take the time to learn something about the business they were doing and then get involved that way.
T. J.:Alright. So, you're taking your people skills that you learned in part. From the railroad. From the railroad. Yeah.
T. J.:And then translating that Exactly like that. Right. Because you gotta be sharp. You have to be quick. And and you're also persuasive.
William:Also what? Persuasive. Yeah. Another thing I forgot to mention. During my college years, I also worked at a little neighborhood service station.
William:Okay, tell me more. So that was constantly meeting people and pumping gas and doing little minor mechanic work for the vehicles. And so with with the with the constant talking and the interchange of ideas, that was a good way of learning. By the way, the service station area was in Knoxville, Tennessee.
T. J.:Okay. Yeah. All right. Have you been by in years past just to see what's on that lot?
William:Yeah. As a matter of fact, it's interesting. The service station is no longer there. Some kind of business facility has occupied that entire corner.
T. J.:Alright. At some point, and and kinda walk me through this, you get into the military and Oh, I was happy to get in the military. Okay. So so okay. Was there any more about the Boy Scouts?
William:Well, I tell you, Boy Shelves is okay. However, as I kept on working and staying in New York, I guess time became a little bit disenchanting. And I always wanted to weigh out, but I did not want to quit. You do not quit jobs. So, fortunately, in January matter of fact, March, I can remember the date well.
William:The 01/03/1967 was the date that I was supposed to report to the Whitehall Street Induction Station. And I remember that date very well because I said, thank god for this. This got me out of New York for three years, and then I went right back to New York for reemployment rights. However, it got me out at the time.
T. J.:So were you drafted or did you volunteer?
William:I was drafted. And then once I got in, I decided and it was I if I knew what I knew now, I would have chosen a different MOS. After I got in, I volunteered for another year in order to get the military occupational skill of my choice and what I thought was my choice. My choice, as I was reading the little literature on the occupational skill, was I looked at two words, heavy equipment. I did not look at the capital letter initials before the heavy equipment.
William:And I remember we were in basic training and I asked the one of the sergeants. I said, is this heavy equipment such as cranes and dozers and pans and all of that? He said, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
William:Anything. I'm sure he'd agree with anything. And I went ahead and signed off on it. And the next thing I know, I'm sitting at Fort Lee, Virginia, which was quartermaster heavy equipment, which consisted of repairing laundry units, field bakery units, field laundry units, and field petroleum dispensing units, which involved a lot of learning because you had to learn small engines, hydraulics, I can just go a long list of things. The school was twelve weeks long, by the way.
T. J.:So you're a young man with a college degree and a full time job, and you still get drafted into Vietnam?
William:It didn't matter. Didn't matter. It didn't matter. You were on the draft list and you were going to get drafted.
T. J.:Solely because of your age.
William:Solely because of your age and your number on the draft lottery.
T. J.:Did you watch the TV when those numbers would come up?
William:I didn't know anything about lottery numbers on the television.
T. J.:Okay. I've seen footage of where that would be shown. So, how were they was it announced publicly or is you just got it through?
William:No, in my case, my my local board, my local draft board was out of Waynesboro, Georgia because that's where I had graduated from high school in in Burke County. Even though you're up in Brooklyn. Yeah. So they had I had to constantly notify them where I was. Mhmm.
William:And at the time, I was at shift scout reservation up in Mendham, New Jersey training to be an assistant district scout executive. And I found the letters finally found me, and so I reported finally to the draft station in Brooklyn, New York, Whitehall Street. I remember it well right now, like yesterday. And once once I did that, they gave me the physical and all that, and I raised my right hand, took the oath, and next thing you know, I'm in the army. But when I got in the army, when they mentioned, if you take another year, you can get the school of your choice.
William:They mentioned the equipment, but they didn't mention anything about quartermaster equipment. I just looked at the heavy equipment. Next thing I know, I'm dealing with all the things that is previously mentioned.
T. J.:You're right. Not exactly what you envisioned.
William:What I envisioned. However, it turned out to be okay because then I learned something different. I learned the automotive mechanics because I had to learn something about engines. I learned hydro hydraulics. They had an excellent course in electricity, plumbing, all of those little things.
William:And at one time, before I had turned 82 years old, I was pretty good in maintaining my skills to do those little things around the house. And, also, by knowing those skills, they were excellent when I became a correctional principal later on in life.
T. J.:Oh, man. There's so many paths your life has taken that I haven't heard about. So I'm I'm excited to hear to hear more. So when you finished at Fort Lee
William:Yeah.
T. J.:Your twelve week training, then what happened?
William:Well, somebody came along one day and said, you were going to be detailed here as an instructor. Okay. So for the next few months, whatever, a year, whatever it was, I've forgotten. I stayed there teaching and I was detailed to teach POL, which was petroleum, oil, and lubricating equipment. So you went straight from student to instructor.
William:Right.
T. J.:Alright. How many years were you in the military?
William:If you look at the total number of years, including the the reserve time, the total of twenty seven. Wow.
T. J.:Wow. So did you spend your whole time doing training as an instructor?
William:The whole actually, due to time, yes. I did. So after you Well, except for Vietnam.
T. J.:Oh, okay. Tell me more about Vietnam.
William:Oh, Vietnam was a nice experience. I found out one day that no, what happened? This is all started. Somebody made the brilliant decision to move my section of the school at Fort Lee to Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland. Okay.
William:And so I was detailed to set up and get all of the equipment ready in the shop, packaged and all that to send to Aberdeen with the assumption that I would be going to Aberdeen as an instructor. When the move was finally completed, instead of going to Aberdeen, I went to Vietnam with only eight months left on my enlistment.
T. J.:Well, that must have been a surprise.
William:Well, yeah, it was a surprise with the amount of time, but get orders, you get orders. So you go to Vietnam. And once I got to Vietnam, because of the experience, I was assigned as the motor sergeant for the battalion.
T. J.:Where were you stationed at in Vietnam?
William:Headquarters and headquarters company, ADA Supply and Service Battalion in an area close to a little town called Pleiku, P L E I K U, up north near the Central Highlands. And you spent your eight months there? At Pleiku. At Motor pool. What happened after eight months?
William:After eight months, I returned to The United States to be detailed out. What does that mean? Bye.
T. J.:Okay. What were your plans after that?
William:My plans after that, because I was married at the time, my plans after that was to go back to my old job and then try to find something as soon as possible into Jackson, Tennessee. My because my wife and my daughter that my baby daughter and my newborn son were injection. I made sure before I went to Vietnam that they came home to her parents.
T. J.:Okay.
William:But in the event that something negative would have happened to me, I want her to be around a support system.
T. J.:Sure. Like like you grew up
William:in.
T. J.:Yeah. Yeah. Had you been to Jackson prior? No. Yeah.
T. J.:Alright. So you come back. You're in Jackson. What job did you land?
William:From New York to Jackson, I landed, of all places, with the Jackson Police Department as a police officer. And they told me at the outset, now you know that the probationary period here is six months, and we can terminate you anytime during that six months. I guess that was a warning.
T. J.:Before he even started. Right. Well, how did that six months go?
William:At the end of six months,
T. J.:they terminated me. No kidding. Yeah.
William:And then told me that I could find a job teaching in the city. So what'd you do? Well, at the time, my wife one day was in Nashville taking an exam to work for the state of Tennessee. And while she was working, I was looking for a job. And I remember at the either the Andrew Jackson Building or Rachel Jackson Building, I forget which one.
William:I went up to the Eleventh Floor, and there was a sign that said, department of correction. And I went in, had all my little paperwork and my little cheap suit on, and I introduced myself. And I the only job I knew about was correction was correctional officer. And so I went in and inquired about other things they had and the lady said, if you don't mind, just wait here a minute and she went next door into the Commissioner's Office and in that meeting, at that moment, there was the director of education, commissioner of correction, and one other person. I forget when.
William:And the next day, she sent me in the room to meet with them. And at the time, they had an opening at the Tennessee State Penitentiary for a correctional teacher. And so they asked me if I was interested based on my experience and I said, yes. And so I was sent out to the main prison. So.
William:For an interview.
T. J.:Let me interrupt you just for a minute. Yes. So you walked in without an appointment. Yes. You walked out with a full time job.
T. J.:Yes. Oh, that's pretty amazing.
William:I look at it as divine intervention. I went out to the main prison and interviewed with the warden and the director of treatment. Matter of fact, I I can remember his name. His last name was Childress Childress. I was hired as a teacher, and I stayed there roughly for almost six months before I transferred down to the newest prison in the state, was Tornish Center for Youthful Offenders down in SA 40.
William:As you go up in SA 40, you'll see a sign on it now.
T. J.:That's
William:right. I guess it's there, I don't know. Anyway, I got down to Tornish Center and the principal started getting into my case about going back to school and getting my master's. It was essentially, it worked obviously because I got my GI bill started, enrolled at Memphis State, and I graduated with my master master's degree in education and got certified as a principal. But in the meantime, they were building another prison in Memphis, and I was selected as a deputy warden.
T. J.:What is the role of a deputy warden?
William:To literally run the prison for the warden.
T. J.:Wow. What year is this?
William:Wow. Now you're getting into my mind because I'm forgetting dates. What decade? That was in the that was in the 1970. Yeah.
William:Because I got started 01/01/1971. Yeah. So this was '70 I think it was about 1976.
T. J.:Okay. Yeah. So you're a deputy warden in a Memphis prison facility?
William:It was a Memphis Correctional Center.
T. J.:Okay. So tell me more about the prison life and the role of a deputy warden.
William:The role of a deputy warden in any prison, I don't know about now, but back then, the ability to run the prison. You had to take care of your security operation, your treatment, and everything else. You had to do everything except the business functions. For the business functions, they had, at that time, another associate warden position of business affairs, or whatever it was called, I forget.
T. J.:So you're really running the daily operation from staffing to prison? Staffing, security, food service, everything. My goodness. And then somebody else did the administrative type thing. How long were you there?
William:I stayed at Memphis from 1971, about five years, and then they changed the operation of the prison. So that's when I reached back and pulled out the principal certificate that was connected to the master's degree in education Mhmm. Became the principal at the prison. I just they what they did, they abolished my position as deputy warden. So I became the principal there for a few months, and then I relocated up to Western and see up in the Northwest Corner near Chipptonville to the newest prison up there, which was Lake County Regional Prison as principal.
T. J.:So you've got this for for a big chunk of your early life, You've got all this transition from school, going back to school, various jobs. How did you keep grounded during that time? Mentally, spiritually, That's a lot of change in really a short period of time.
William:One, I knew who I was.
T. J.:Maybe. Yeah.
William:I knew who I was, and I knew what I wanted to do, which was ultimately be able to motivate and change somebody's life.
T. J.:Yeah. And I may be jumping ahead on this question, but where does the ministry start trickling into
William:your life? In the ministry. Well, you gotta look at this now. Realize that in my in my college years, initially, the whole idea was to get a bachelor's degree in order to go to seminary. Okay.
William:And knowing that I wanted to be a preacher, this is when I started the process of I'm going to go to seminary but I'm going to put it off until later on. And when I became a when I became the deputy warden at Memphis, that allowed me to for a small time to live in Jackson, and I became involved with the Christian Methodist Episcopal Church because my wife at the time who were now deceased was a member of the Christian Methodist Episcopal Church And the Christian Methodist Episcopal Church did not necessarily at that time have a seminary requirement for their ministers. Your college degree was accepted, and they also had some training that they would provide, but you did not necessarily have to have a seminary degree. But the seminary thing was on my mind in that I am going to do this, but I'm going to do it later. So I came over to the CME church, so Christian Methodist Episcopal Church, and was gradually ordained after a bunch of training.
William:And after being ordained, I was assigned to a pair of rural churches down in Hardiman County.
T. J.:While still working.
William:Yes, it was bi vocational. Yeah. Which is also along my line too. Yeah. Because looking at my father, I didn't look at my father, but listening to my mother, I did not want to be dependent on a church for a living.
William:Mhmm. I wanted to work and also take care of church business and preach. In other words, a bi vocational minister. That's always been my thoughts.
T. J.:Right. Okay. So your home was in the Jackson area? Yes. You commuted to the Memphis area?
William:I did until I this will be funny for you. Until I found a space, a living space in the prison.
T. J.:Oh, okay. Yeah. Alright. So, you were able to spend the night there.
William:Yeah, not only the nights. I spent the days, the weeks, and everything else there.
T. J.:So, you never left work.
William:No, I never, you're exactly right. I never left work. Okay.
T. J.:Tell me about your experience in the Christian Methodist Episcopal Church.
William:Experience in the Christian Methodist Episcopal Church started at Mother Liberty CME Church which is here in Jackson. Mhmm. Assisting the at the time assisting the minister. As a local preacher. A local preacher was a position for an aspiring minister in the CME church.
William:In other words, working as a ministerial assistant with periodically being given the assignment to do sermons and all of that. Kinda like practice. Yeah. Practice.
T. J.:Kinda fill out or feel the role and and see the role. You would go
William:out with the minister to visit those who were sick. You would also sit in to official church meetings and see what was going on fully.
T. J.:Interesting. So, it's kind of like a mentorship. It was
William:a very good mentorship. Okay.
T. J.:That that would be helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. How did you get tied in to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America?
William:I got tied into the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America after being in the CME church for several years. And I was here in Jackson, and I found out that Mount Tabor Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America had a vacancy. And so I went to visit the session one evening when they were having their meeting and found out how I could cross over. And doing that after doing that, I wrote my bishop a letter and told him my interests and also my interest in eventually getting a chance to go to seminary.
T. J.:Mhmm.
William:Since we had Memphis Theological nearby. And he signed off on my transfer. And then I came over to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and was ordained into the gradually ordained into a ministerial practice.
T. J.:And so your first call in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church was at Mount Tabor. Yes, it was. That's amazing. What was your attraction to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
William:One of the attractions of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church was the fact that the Cumberland Presbyterian Church had a seminary in Memphis, Tennessee.
T. J.:Going back to education. Yes. High value of education. Right.
William:And my intent to go to seminary. That was the main issue. And what was so interesting, once I became ordained and was fastening Mount Tabor, I remember inquiring at Memphis Theological, and I forget who the I forget who was on the other end of the telephone. There's somebody still there now that I know. And he informed me that as an ordained minister, that the Cumberland Presbyterian Church would pick up the tab for me going to seminary.
William:Mhmm. And when he said that, I said, in my mind, praise god. So for the first few years of pastoring at Mount Shabbat, I was also a seminary student.
T. J.:Okay. So you you served the church and was also a student. Were you still working in the correctional field?
William:No. By that time, I'm thinking that I had recharged from corrections. Okay. Yeah.
T. J.:So, what decade are we in for you to be a seminary student and serve a Mount Tabor?
William:We are into the nineteen eighties, I'm thinking.
T. J.:Alright. So your children are getting a little bit older. They're older. And so what was it like to be able to serve the Cumberland Presbyterian church into the eighties nineties? And now in this new century, how has it changed?
T. J.:How was it say that again, please? How has the Cumberland Presbyterian church changed from your introduction in the nineteen eighties into the nineties and now in this new century?
William:The change is not that the liturgy and all that, they have they have not been that that many so called changes. Mhmm. The hymns, I was very much familiar with and all that because I grew up in a Presbyterian church. Mhmm. So that bounced back.
William:The part of the liturgy, I had grown up with that, so that didn't change. Mhmm. So it's all the same.
T. J.:From your perspective, what are some of the best characteristics of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
William:Some of the best characteristics of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church is I think there is a bit more freedom for the ministers as opposed to the Methodist system. In the Methodist system, you're always concerned about the hierarchy with the bishop system. In the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, you know that the church hierarchy is going to be concerned primarily with the church officials themselves right there within that local church. And then when it comes to the presbytery and the senators and all of these things, that's that's with the church but it's also outside the main church body. Right.
T. J.:So, there's a connection there and yet there's still some self autonomy. Yes. As well. It's a it's a beautiful balance as opposed to maybe a more hierarchical situation. What hopes do you have for the Cumberland Presbyterian Church looking into the future?
William:Looking into the future, I would like to see the Cumberland Presbyterian Church as simply one body. Cumberland Presbyterian Church Mhmm. As opposed to Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America and Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Just one body of Christians in service to god and neighbor. Yes.
William:That's what I would love to see.
T. J.:Me too. Me too. Reverend Montague, you have so many so much input and you're still so active in the Cumberland Presbyterian church. Do you mind just kind of talking about the different areas of of your ministry? For example, I'll I'll start you off.
T. J.:When I come over to your house to record this, you're preparing to be to instruct at the program of alternate studies. You're a longtime instructor, for the introduction to the Bible. Yes. So that's just one little piece of you being active in ministry. What else are you doing?
T. J.:Which, by the way, is not a little piece. Being an instructor at Program of Alternate Studies is.
William:At this time in my life, at this time in my life, that is all that I'm doing as far as outside the church itself. As a matter of fact, right now, I am not actively engaged in a church ministry itself. I think I'm a little too old for that now. Okay. But the opportunity to work with and to help instruct new incoming ministers to me is a blessing.
William:Mhmm. I go over that little curriculum every year to make sure that it is upgraded to the current time. As a matter of fact, when we were coming down here, you saw my two interpreters' Bibles that I was bringing back to the cabin. Yeah. One is the most recent issue, and one is an older issue.
William:The older issue that you see up there right here, the two books right here on top of the thing.
T. J.:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
William:The older issue, believe it or not, is a gift from my father's classmate in the back in the forties. He was my father's classmate up at Lincoln University, and he kept those in his library that just sits down here on the shelf. He kept those in his library and told me one day when I paid a visit to him that those were my books when he died. And after his death and funeral, I remember going up to Pennsylvania right outside of Philadelphia and picking up those interpretive Bibles and shipping them back to Jackson. Mhmm.
William:Now that's an older set. But on top of that is the latest version, the new interpretive Bible, and I eventually when I was in seminary down at MTS, ordered me a set so that I could stay on top of everything. Along with the other books I've got in here. I've got books of every sort in here.
T. J.:Yeah, just for those who are listening for perspective, we, we are in a room that all the walls have books from floor to ceiling. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm looking around right now. Well, let's not sell yourself short.
T. J.:So you teach at the program of alternate studies. You mentioned just a moment ago, and I want to kind of parse this out a bit. So in a presbytery meeting once a year during communications, you read part of the catalog of the classes being offered with the program of alternate studies. Yeah. Even if New Hopewell Presbytery doesn't have a current, candidate or licensure for ministry, you're always encouraging the presbytery that, Hey, you can come and attend these classes.
William:Yeah.
T. J.:I This is do what's available. I do bet. And it's not far away from, well, matter of fact, Bethel University, where program of alternate studies is, holds its courses is in the bounds of this very presbytery. I've always admired that. And you've been a chair of the committee on ministry as well.
T. J.:So that's where I was leading you in my question is you were more active and more involved than, than I think you give credit for.
William:I don't look at it that way.
T. J.:What else would you like to cover that we haven't touched on?
William:If you take some time to read your bible and also back up with your faith, in the book of Genesis chapter six, god puts a life expectancy for humans at one twenty. And I think that is a high possibility for us if we were to change our ways of thinking, our ways of eating, our attitudes toward each other, and our overall attitude toward life in general. And I believe that we can gradually reach god's promise by going out there and doing some things, and that's what I wanna do. And I tell people that I'm gonna be around for a while just to make you mad. I'm gonna be around for a while.
William:I won't be here for a long time, and this is why I am acquiring and by the way, most of these books I have read. This is why I'm acquiring others. I've got a lot of books up to the house. I'm still reading. Mhmm.
William:And anytime I get the opportunity to talk to people and lead and change somebody's life, I want to do the same thing because God has allowed me to be influenced and supported by others, and I think it's time now at age 82 that I try to give back a little of that which I have been given.
T. J.:I appreciate you giving me your time inviting me to your home for us to do this recording. You have been an encouragement to me.
William:Thank
T. J.:you. Since I've known you. We're going on ten years.
William:That long?
T. J.:Yes, sir. Wow. Yeah. Maybe, maybe more. Let's just say ten.
T. J.:We'll round it down or up to ten. And you've been an encouragement to me and, you've helped me along the way. And I've picked up bits and pieces of your faith, over the years, but I thought it would be helpful if we sat down like we are now and just giving you the opportunity to kind of walk me through, your life and your ministry. Reverend Montague, I like asking my guests, for this podcast, what are you reading now? And since we're surrounded by books, it seems like a highly appropriate question to ask you.
William:Well, it's interesting that you would ask this because those books that you're talking about that I am reading up at the house right now.
T. J.:Mhmm.
William:And I can't think of the I can't think of the titles nor can I think of the author's name? But the author, by the way, is a Jewish author, and a lot of his writing is is highly is highly fictional, but it is using a lot of the Old Testament scripture. And what is interesting is that I can relate to that because as I'm reading, I can see where he's going with that. It's kind of prophetic.
T. J.:Do you read stuff just for pleasure?
William:Now, I do. Yeah. I don't I thank god I don't have to go to school anymore.
T. J.:Well, a lot of times for ministers and instructors. Yeah. You know, in preparation for a sermon or preparation for teaching a class or for your work, for your ministry, you you're kind of reading but you're reading for someone else.
William:Well, on on sermon, on on sermon preparation, my reading would go strictly with strictly Bible. Mhmm. And I can go into that. As a matter of fact, if you turn around and look up top, right under the horn up there, that's a sack of old old sermons.
T. J.:No kidding.
William:Yeah. That's a sack of em.
T. J.:So, do you like, do you use a manuscript or do you do bullet points?
William:That's a manuscript. Okay. Right.
T. J.:I have found in my ministry that I've sort of ebb and flow. Sometimes, I in the past, I've just had note cards. Sometimes, I might just have little bullet points. Right. Themes.
T. J.:Right. And then on other occasions, it will just be full manuscript.
William:For full manuscript. Yeah. Because I can always go back to that for other references and I can always go back to those and revise them for an ongoing sermon. That's true. Yeah.
T. J.:Yeah. I've done that as well. Thank you for your time. I appreciate you, your hospitality, your graciousness, and, and most importantly, I've enjoyed hearing your faith journey.
William:Thank you. Thank you.
T. J.:Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road. Doctor. Montague introduced me to worlds in which I am not aware of, and I'm grateful for it. He's been very instrumental in my ministry in both the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America. One takeaway from our conversation is how important it is of knowing who you are. In closing is an excerpt from Maya Angelou's poem, Still I Rise. On tough days, this excerpt comes to my mind. You may shoot me with your words. You may cut me with your eyes. You may kill me with your hatefulness, but still like air, I'll rise. Thanks for listening.
