Cliff Hudson - Finding Grace
Exploring faith journeys and inspiring ministries that embody the good news of God. This is Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ Malinoski. There are some journeys that have a universal path that we all grapple with in our living. The search for meaning, the search for purpose, the search for forgiveness and understanding. Today's guest shares a time in his life wondering if God would take him back, back in spite of choices and decisions made in the past. What he finds in his journey and search, he says, is grace and understanding. Reverend Cliff Hudson is the minister at the Silverdale Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Chattanooga, Tennessee. He is also the development director of the denominations, rUnited Outreach. Cliff shares how finding grace led him into ministry. And in our conversation, he talks about God's presence during the pandemic, how God is keeping the people of the church together, and how new people to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church are finding its ministry, its polity, and its vision refreshing. Enjoy this conversation on the Cumberland Road with Reverend Cliff Hudson.
T.J.:Cliff, thank you for joining me on the podcast. I want to open up with a question that I think you you can help answer. What is OUO? What is our United Outreach?
Cliff:Well, I'm so glad you asked me that question. Our United Outreach is the primary funding engine of the entire Cumberland Presbyterian denomination. Every board, every ministry, every agency of our church is supported by OUO, Our United Outreach, a system developed by our general assembly decades ago to help unify the denomination in funding its ministries. General assembly has repeatedly requested, asked each of our congregations and others, including Synod, including women's ministries, including individuals to tithe to our United Outreach. That is a request.
Cliff:And some, faithfully answer that request faithfully and generously, and others partially answer that request, and some don't answer at all. Is that an answer for you?
T.J.:It is. It leads me into my next question. Cliff, as the development director of our United Outreach, giving to this as a tithe, what does it end up looking like? What would be an example of the benefits of giving to our United Outreach for, an individual in congregation and as the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination?
Cliff:Well, let me personalize it if if you if that's a good idea. When I write a check to our United Outreach out of my personal account and I send it to denominational headquarters where I know good people are gonna receive the check and deposit it appropriately, when that happens, I know that I just supported every ministry of our church proportionally, percentage wise. And when I hand over that money to OUO, the responsibility for the, distribution of those funds is no longer mine. It is the, responsibility of the Our United Outreach Committee, which is a permanent committee established by the general assembly, and also general assembly itself. Our OUO, budget and our OUO goals for each calendar year are approved by general assembly each and every year.
Cliff:So when a church sends a check, when I send a check, when women's ministry sends a check, we everybody knows that the check is a statement saying, I support all the ministries of the church.
T.J.:So when you write that check, Cliff, the the, oh, I've heard this probably since my teenage years, is, the people people down in at the headquarters are, you know, appropriating the O UO as they seem fit, but you you're saying something different. The general assembly, which meets every year, actually allocates how the giving to our United Outreach is used.
Cliff:Yes. That's correct. So for every dollar received, the O UO committee, which meets annually in the month of March, decides how each one of those dollars is carved up to each board and agency. And although I don't have that chart in front of me, I can, just off the top of my head, tell you that 50¢ out of every one of those dollars goes to the various ministries of the ministry council. And then the ministry council divvies up that 50¢, in a in a way that they see fit.
Cliff:But all of this is deliberated over, voted on at the committee level, and presented to general assembly.
T.J.:So as the development director of our United Outreach, what does that entail? What does that mean?
Cliff:Well, promote, promote, promote, educate, educate, educate, and persuade, persuade, persuade where it is possible. I've been at this for a while now, and it remains amazing to me how many of our elders and congregates don't have a clue as to what OUO is. When I first started, I was fighting a battle. Most folks thought it was the United Way, which is a totally different ballgame as you well know. Now, most of our ministers know, but many of our elders, especially new elders coming on to sessions in our local churches, don't know.
Cliff:And so that's why education has been the focus, during my time, and, it will continue to be. I I can assure you of that.
T.J.:Alright. Well, I wanted to start off with, contemporary, where you are, Cliff, and and, figured that briefly talking about our United Outreach would be a good introduction. So let me and that leads us to my next question. Can you recall a meaningful experience with God? And that and that can be something contemporary, or it can be something that has happened earlier in your life.
Cliff:Wow. I don't know whether to go long or go short on this.
T.J.:Just just go cliff.
Cliff:Well, there's an inherent danger in that. So I I I think I 3 come to mind immediately. The first, when I was much, much, much younger and my hair was not gray. I I was in my late twenties. And, I had made some rotten, awful decisions.
Cliff:I had committed rotten, awful sins. I was a young man running amok in many ways. And one afternoon, I pulled over on the side of the road, in my international harvester pickup truck and kind of pulled off on the side there and just came to the realization. It was almost instantaneous that I was headed down the wrong road and I needed help. And there was a, a church that my sons had been attending a youth group at.
Cliff:And I just parked that truck and walked myself right in the office like nobody's business and asked to speak to a minister. And it turned out I got a hold of the youth minister that was the head of the the youth ministry that my sons attended at the time. And, basically, my question to this wonderful fellow was, would God take me back? And he immediately began to assure me that certainly that was the case. That is that was a profound moment for me.
Cliff:Maybe for no one else, but it was for me. Then many, many, many years later, 2 experiences that that I recall, just as if they were yesterday. The first experience was a church member at Cleveland Church, where I was the pastor, and Jen Newell was the associate pastor at the time, was sick with cancer, very sick, and requested that we perform an anointing service for her and a laying on of hands. Now I don't know about you, but that doesn't happen to me very often. And, you know, you you do a quick check on the scripture and you go, yes.
Cliff:That's entirely appropriate. It certainly is. And we had that service with this dear lady, Jen, myself, and 3 or 4 elders, and it was absolutely profound. It, it, it was an experience that I think about from time to time. It was after it was over, we all looked at each other and we knew something had happened, but we could not describe it.
Cliff:It was indescribable. None of us present there that day will ever forget that moment. And then one more really quickly. Same church, beloved, long time, wonderful member of the church, had come to the point of death, after a long and fruitful, productive, loving life. And, as it often happens, you get a phone call, please come to the house.
Cliff:I think she's leaving us. And I walked in that particular living room with, that wonderful woman, her husband, her son, and her daughter. And she passed, within 5 minutes of my arrival. And no one said a word for almost an hour. There was that dear lady and her family and me.
Cliff:And you remember in the old testament, the sound of fine silence. You know, God God there here comes a tornado, but God's not in the tornado. Here comes a wind storm. Here comes this here. But but God was present in that very fine silence, depending on which translation you use.
Cliff:I actually experienced that fine silence that particular day, and I'll never forget it. And so that's my answer, and I'm sticking to it.
T.J.:Those are really, really powerful. Cliff, how have these three experiences shaped your faith and your belief in God and and your ministry. It sounds like each one affected you so much that you were different on the other side.
Cliff:Yes. I was. Because on the other side of the pulling off on the side of the road incident, it was not long thereafter that I found grace at First Cumberland Presbyterian in Chattanooga, which is a place that my 2 sons had decided to go after that other church got into got into a fracas or 2. So I I actually followed my sons there, to be honest with you. Walked into this beautiful sanctuary.
Cliff:I know you've been there. You know what I'm talking about. And the music was just unbelievable and the people were unbelievable. But what was most unbelievable was there was a brilliant preacher in the pulpit who laid out a text in front of my nose and demanded that I make up my own mind about it. But he had no intention of telling anybody what to believe about this particular text.
Cliff:And believe me, that was so unbelievably foreign that it just blew me over. And that led into becoming a part time youth guy at First Cumberland and then becoming the youth director and yada yada yada. The rest is history. So that was a life changing moment a long time ago. The other two incidences I share with you, reinforce what Reverend Gene Richardson used to say to all of us if we would just listen.
Cliff:He would say, we're in the people business. It's just that simple. We're in the people business. When I think about that healing service or about the death of that dear lady, it was all about people. That is very simple.
T.J.:And yet very complex.
Cliff:Yeah. Yeah. You're right.
T.J.:Yeah. Simple and yet complex. Cliff, you have these experiences and many others. Let's talk about how that led you into the ministry of the word and the sacraments.
Cliff:Oh, well, that that's not nearly as complicated as it might sound. When I was, beginning to do youth work at First Cumberland, I had a few people come up to me and say, hey. You ought to be a pastor. Oh, come on. Give me a break.
Cliff:Are you kidding me? I'm a radio engineer. I don't do that. And one thing led to another, and I had a a conversation with, our dear friend, doctor Tom Campbell Mhmm. Who told me that, he he he showed me the path that I would have to follow.
Cliff:And, I walked the floor and wrung my hands and thought of 500 reasons why I had no business doing anything like this. I wasn't worthy. Oh, you know, those thoughts went through all the time. But anyway, long story short, I came under care of Presbyterian and had to get a 2 year AA degree, simultaneously was going through the entirety of the PAS program. And it's the best thing that ever happened to me.
Cliff:Can't say enough good things about the discipline that that created. You want me to stop now?
T.J.:No. You you can keep on going.
Cliff:Oh, boy. Anyway, a church called Richard City CP Church in South Pittsburgh, Tennessee was desperately looking for a pastor, and they decided to gamble on a candidate. And for 4 years, it was a beautiful thing. Wonderful people. They tolerated my inexperience and loved me and loved me and loved me.
Cliff:It was wonderful. Two stories at Richard City. First story. After I was ordained, I had the opportunity to perform my first wedding. And it was awesome.
Cliff:It was wonderful, except for the fact I forgot to let the groom kiss the bride. Uh-oh. When we got to the fellowship hall, I had to correct that error immediately, but everybody laughed about it. 2nd funny story at Richard City, my first communion after ordination. I got the bread and the wine mixed up, and I did it wrong.
Cliff:And nobody got mad. Everybody laughed. And every communion from that time forward, the elders had sticky notes on the communion table. Cliff, bread first. Bread first.
Cliff:So wonderful folks and a wonderful experience.
T.J.:I have done that more than once, and it's actually a fear that I have. I think of that where methodically to to take that in order. But, yeah, I've done that more than once. The sticky notes, that is a good idea. I hadn't thought of that before.
Cliff:Well, you know, and for a long time thereafter, I was so scared and so nervous, because I was afraid I was gonna mess up communion until a very wise elder came up, put his hand on my shoulder and said, son, it's holy communion. You cannot mess it up. Let it be what it is. And I learned my lesson.
T.J.:That's good. Well, that leads into another question. Who were some of the people who've had a great impact on your journey of faith?
Cliff:Well, that youth minister all those years ago had a big impact on me. And then I have to bring up doctor Tom Campbell. I'm not the only one that doctor Tom mentored. What a what a sense of humor. What a church historian.
Cliff:The man can still tell you who the moderator of the 1954 General Assembly was. Yeah. But he is so totally in love with the CP church that it just flows from him. And all of his young students, so to speak, lapped it up. Then there was pastor Bill, Bill Rustenhaven, who was also a a a pause program professor, and he was tough too.
Cliff:But he was he was a pastor to all of these budding young pastors, and I just loved him too. Then here lately, I'm I'm I'm gonna have to be careful about naming names here. I was associate pastor at First Cumberland under a wonderful fellow by the name of doctor Larry Schenk, who was senior pastor there for, I'm thinking, 7 or 8 years. And he taught me how to do ministry by example and never telling me what to do. So I learned funerals from him.
Cliff:I learned weddings from him. I learned teaching intimate bible study classes from him, and I learned how to be in the people business from him. So and then I you know, here again at the at the risk of throwing out names that I'm gonna get in trouble for later, I'm gonna say Jen Newell. And I'm gonna say that because we we go back such a long way and it's such a strange journey, and we're such different people. But I have learned so much from her.
Cliff:Started out, with her children in my youth group, and then it ended up or or it developed into Jen coming to Cleveland to do children's ministry. And then Jen came under the burden of a call, and she struggled mightily with it. And then Jen became associate pastor, and then Jen became senior pastor. And if there ever were 2 colleagues in ministry that were also good friends, it's gotta be Jim.
T.J.:Cliff, where do you see the presence of God in this wonderful world that we're living in today?
Cliff:That's a that's a harder question than than you might think because being in the people business for the last 18 months or so has been challenging and frustrating and interesting. I I can't find any more words to to describe it. Yet, God has kept us together. If you wanna know where the presence of God is for me these days is the fact that Silverdale Church, where I happen to serve, is still going. We're not done yet.
Cliff:I wish we had big crowds back in the sanctuary like before, and I wish we had bible study groups and children's church like we did before. I wish we could all go back to normal like we were before. But the truth of the matter is we're never going back there, I don't think. And God has yet kept us together. Mhmm.
Cliff:Kept us unified as a church. Kept us financially okay. If if there's only 50 in the sanctuary distanced, by the way, on Sunday morning, there's a 110 more that are watching online. And and if you wanna know how I have sensed, and I'm not really good at this, the presence of God, we're still here.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Cliff:We we didn't have to shut our doors. So that's my answer.
T.J.:How about for you as an individual and reflecting upon your relationship with God? Where where do you see God working? Where do you see God's presence in in your own life?
Cliff:Well, in my family life, first of all, but that's kind of a no brainer, I suppose. I I think a little tap on the shoulder every now and again of, hey, son. You don't know it all, so don't act like you know it all. Right. And perhaps, more of a willingness to have difficult conversations with people where where we might, on the surface, disagree about something.
Cliff:But learning to listen to the other person and and, you know, listening is a God given skill that requires constant practice and honing. Right? You can't listen to the other person if you're all if you're already thinking about your retort to what they just said. Nope. That's not listening.
Cliff:You can't listen to the other person if you cut them off short before they can completely express themselves. And I'm finding more and more in talking with folks where there may be a potential disagreement about something, that once I've actually listened to them, the disagreement may still be there, but the understanding is also present. That's what I'm learning these days.
T.J.:Yeah. It sometimes having conversations to initiate it takes courage. It's almost a a risk. And, usually, it's a risk, well worth taking because you get to grow. You get to exchange ideas, and you get to be challenged.
T.J.:And and you get to experience love and compassion in most, if not all, conversations. Yep. And it it is. It's an opportunity for growth, but I do believe it takes courage. And sometimes that's hard.
T.J.:Cliff, let's talk about the church, the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination in which we both serve. If you were a doctor and you were to kinda give a physical exam of our church, what would you find, and what would you prescribe? And and where do you hope to see the church in the future?
Cliff:Well, I think my answer would be this. Most of the new folks that have joined Silverdale in the past 5 years or so have come here finding our style of worship, our theology, our polity to be, frankly, refreshing. Most of our new members within the last 5 years or so have come from other faith traditions. And that is the Cumberland Church that I have experienced more often than not. Sure, there are some lifelong Cumberlands, but there are many more folks who have discovered the Cumberland Church.
Cliff:So we have Lutherans, Catholics, atheists, and others who have joined here and become a part of the family because it was so refreshing, just as refreshing for them as it was for me all those years ago. That is the one fact about our church that I fear that we're just not identifying and promoting enough. Do I know what the answer to that is? No. Not unless we can allocate quite a sum of money for an advertising blitz nationwide.
Cliff:Now we we don't have that kind of, organization, so it's gotta be word-of-mouth. It's gotta be, hey. Come give us a try. You'll be welcome. So and I know that you're a evangelistic proponent and expert, but, you know, this kind of evangelism has to happen 1 person at a time.
Cliff:As Jean Richardson said, we are in the people business. I think if more of us would remember that little, saying, I think I think our church would prosper.
T.J.:Yeah. It is relational. And I believe we have to have a relation ship with God first if we are articulating our faith in the best way that we know how. Yeah. And this podcast is an expression of that, and it it's an experiment of that as well.
T.J.:Whether we're lay it or ordained, we have this opportunity to share our faith journey, but also for others, but also to kinda hear ourselves share that faith journey and have that time to reflect and go, okay. God has impacted my life and and has done so in these ways. And it's exciting and worth sharing with other people. It's a practice.
Cliff:So if I were to coin a phrase to summarize what what we have just discussed, it's a phrase that I learned back at the program of alternate studies, and I adopted it as my own. And now other, pastors who have come into our denomination from other traditions have purloined the phrase from me. And it's simply this. I wasn't always Cumberland, but I got here as soon as I could. That is a phrase worth remembering.
T.J.:That's funny and good. Funny and good. Cliff, how can the listeners continue to follow you on your faith journey?
Cliff:Well, first of all, there's that Facebook, YouTube video thingy doy that we have been doing now for the last, what, 18 months, I guess? It's hard to figure how long it's been. Seems like 10 years. You can get a good sampling of, the ministry of the church, by popping in on that.
T.J.:And that would be that's Silverdale. Excuse me.
Cliff:Silverdale. Presbyterian. And then, in terms of, it sounds a little heady to me to say my ministry. But the truth of the matter is is that our United Outreach is my ministry. I believe in what I'm doing.
Cliff:I would not have taken the position if I didn't believe that it was the right thing for all of us to do. By the way, I didn't succeed anybody. I was the 1st person 1st and only so far in that position, so we had to make a lot of stuff up as we went along. Thank the good Lord I had Ron Gardner to guide me in those early months. It is a ministry.
Cliff:It is a ministry to promote the ministries of the church. I can't think of it any other way.
T.J.:Cliff, is there a a website or Facebook page that we can point people to to find out more information, on our United Outreach?
Cliff:Oh, yes. Cumberland.org/ourunitedoutreachorou0. It's easy to get to. And for those who, enjoy looking at pie charts and allocation numbers, they're all there. They are updated frequently.
Cliff:They're not always updated just every day, but they're updated frequently. But I would say if we have a listener who wants to know more about ou0, please email me. Here it comes. Are you ready? Gchudson3@gmail.com.
Cliff:You wanna hear about all you owe? I will definitely give you boatloads of information.
T.J.:Alright. Cliff, thank you. I deeply appreciate your time and you sharing your faith journey and your experience and your contribution to ministry. I appreciate it, Cliff.
Cliff:My pleasure. Thank you.
T.J.:And thank you for listening to today's podcast. Grab a friend and travel with us on our next journey down Cumberland Road.
