Tami Terpstra - The Practice of Listening & Being Present
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I am your host, TJ Malinoski. Tami Terpstra is an interfaith chaplain at a level 1 trauma hospital in Denver, Colorado. She shares what it is like to face many mental, behavioral, physical, and spiritual needs on a daily basis, And where the art of listening and being present are gifts in human suffering. I hope you were encouraged by this faith conversation with Tammy Terpstra.
T.J.:Tami, you are a chaplain in the Denver area. Walk me through what a day, a life of a chaplain is.
Tami:Alright. Hopefully, you've got a long time to record. We have all VA. Right? Well, first of all, it's an it's an interesting question to talk about what is a typical day.
Tami:I think what's typical is is that each day is not typical.
T.J.:So you have a variety.
Tami:Yeah. You don't ever know what you're going to encounter. So, just for context, I'm at a public safety net hospital. This means that we, we serve everyone regardless of ability to pay. We are also a level 1 trauma hospital.
Tami:That means that we get, there's a horrible car accident. If there were a mass shooting, if there were, you know, anything that goes on downtown with, there's there's a joke among, student chaplains that get sent to us that that we're the guns and knives club. We're downtown. We get, a lot of the homeless population. But we're where you wanna be if you've been in a bodily trauma of any kind.
Tami:So just given that fact, means that our day is never typical.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Tami:Right? Because it's, whatever you read on the news, We might be dealing with the aftermath of that, in our setting. And, of course, we can't, ever predict what each day will hold.
T.J.:So the care provided by the hospital and the spiritual care representation that you have is that garden variety of physical injury to, mental health trauma, life, death, and everything in between.
Tami:Yes. That's fair.
T.J.:Do you typically work a day shift, the night shift? And just kinda walk me through maybe what a typical day looks like for Tammy.
Tami:No. I I don't have a typical day really. On one day of the week, well, let's I'll back up. 2 days of the week, I serve, specifically our adult mental health patients. And so I put in 2 full days in the week where I am devoted to just those patients.
Tami:Those are, we sometimes have 3 3 units, I should say. They're secure units. So you don't freely come and go from those units. And, right now we have 2 of those units that are running. One unit tends to be our most acute needs, And the other unit, are those patients that tend to be closer to some kind of baseline or less acuity in their needs.
Tami:But we on top of folks that are just, I guess I should back up. So it could be, it could be someone who's tried to jump off a building and survived it and is struggling with major depression. And we are there to get them to some kind of help and stability to get re centered after suicide attempts.
T.J.:Mhmm. Are these can these units serve as long term or are they short term care?
Tami:And it's a variety of people. So, for example, in the example of, someone who's come in to that unit b. So they might start in our trauma. You know? They might start having self charm themselves so so drastically that they begin in our trauma center.
Tami:And then they might go to our, surgical ICU and and have some time in ICU care. And then the it might be determined that this person is still needing more of a circle of care around them. And so then they get to our psychiatric unit. So then we're working with that person up until they kind of reach, a point where we feel like they are safe being able to be safe for themselves. So that is more of a kind of a short term case, honestly, as compared to.
Tami:We also have a contract with, the jail the Colorado jail system. So, we have a office of behavioral health that, for example, someone is arrested and goes to jail. They're also schizophrenic, let's say, and they've been off their medications and they've done something typically while they're destabilized, not managing their condition, and, they go to jail. In the jail, they're decompensating and in a variety of ways. So we also have a contract with with, the office of behavioral health in that case where we take those patients, and they're with us long term because they're, they're there to restore competency essentially.
Tami:Mhmm. So, they're there as part of actually their time with us counts as part of the time served. But they're there to get the right medications, some counseling, some support, and hopefully get grounded enough that they reach some competency. Physical
T.J.:and mental needs, physical and mental needs, what does what does ministry look like in that setting? Because, I mean, you have well, I'm just gonna let the question hang there, and you can you can address it in the way that's appropriate because there's a wide variety of people to match those wide variety of physical, spiritual, and mental needs. So what does the ministry of a chaplain look like in those settings?
Tami:It's an awesome question. You know, honestly, I could it's a wide variety, as you say, of people and circumstances, but the consistent ministry is a ministry of presence.
T.J.:Dive deeper into that. What does that what does that mean more than just be being a body standing in the room?
Tami:Sometimes it's a body standing in the room.
T.J.:Because I'm a push I'm a push a little bit because the body standing in the room, that's a good thing. Mhmm. But, on the other end, what does that representation look like? Are you a nurse? Are you a doctor?
T.J.:A physical therapist? Are you here to, you know, have me fill out forms? Right. I'm not devaluing the ministry of presence. Correct.
T.J.:Right. The representation. Right.
Tami:You framed it well. Where my I jokingly say I can't fix anything, but I can bless the mess. A lot of chaplaincy training is actually unlearning how to be the fixer. And that was my first career was in teaching. You know?
Tami:So I had to unlearn walking into a room with an agenda. Right? I I had to leave any idea of a lesson plan. That's got to go away. And genuinely, genuinely, I am 90% of the time there to be, in chaplaincy, we'd call it active reflective listening.
Tami:The art of listening, I think, is, way undervalued. This is weird getting to be the one talking. I feel like if I've done my visit well, I've said very little, but I've listened a lot.
T.J.:Mhmm.
Tami:And legitimately, it's, I'm gonna say also another important chaplain training piece is to be the calm nonjudgmental presence. So, honestly, being another presence in the room, calm in the midst of crisis, nonjudgmental in that whatever's just transpired, I'm still there to care for you and how your heart and soul are doing in that moment. It I think to an onlooker can look like we really are doing nothing but being a body in the room. Right? But I'm actively this sounds counter counterintuitive.
Tami:I'm actively being present. I I'm I am putting myself often where other people would hesitate to go. And legitimately walking into some situations with some people when most others would probably choose not to put themselves in that position. Legitimately, just walking in the room and being present and here and with.
T.J.:It can convey, you know, I pushed. So now I'm going to step back. It can be that with the presence can come the availability.
Tami:Yes.
T.J.:When or if needed.
Tami:Yes.
T.J.:When everyone else in the room, especially and I'm imagining here, you please correct me if I'm wrong. Everyone else in the room has a task in terms of the medical side, and they're pretty busy. And if I am on the receiving end of the medical or mental care, it is at minimum. It is nice to know that there is a free hand or a pair of eyes or a body who isn't busy doing the other stuff to help heal me.
Tami:Right. Yeah. It it can look like it can look like we have well, I'm sorry. I'm just talking a little bit in stutters here, but I'm so many people's faces and stories come to mind. And again, it's such a variety.
Tami:But because we are serving so many of Denver's indigent, homeless, immigrant population, because they are sent to us, because again, we are the hospital that is there to catch them when they fall. Right? I mean, to me, is there anything more representative of how I see the light of Christ in the world
T.J.:Mhmm. At that? Well, Tammy, what if because of who you represent in your role in the healing process, what about those who are not real keen on any type of faith based that helps with the healing aspect.
Tami:Yeah. How
T.J.:do you deal with that type of resistance? I'm not sure what the right word would be. But as a chaplain, how do you what do you do when you encounter see, I'm talking in circles as well.
Tami:That's good. Yay. We're in it together. So
T.J.:How do you encounter those who may be resisted for various reasons, to having someone who represents a higher power, a higher being, maybe even an institution? What is your response as a chaplain?
Tami:It's a it's a beautiful question. Partly, I'll address it from our milieu because there there can be other ways that chaplains function in other settings. So what I am addressing is my milieu, which is a public hospital setting where we are there again to catch everyone who's falling. Right? So I am there part of how we function is that when a patient comes in, they're they're asked, do they want is spiritual care important to them in their experience?
Tami:So part of how we function is, we are alerted particularly to those folks wanting so there's there's that aspect. But there's another aspect, which is, we'll get paged by staff. There's let's say a trauma has just happened and family is just arriving at the hospital. Their loved one has just been in a horrible car accident. And, you know, the phone phone circle phone chains begin and people are alerted and family starts to show up.
Tami:Well, there are several faith stories there. Right? There's the faith story of the patient. What kind of support does that patient need or want? There's the faith story of the family members, and there's the faith story of friends that may or may not be in that milieu.
Tami:And so part of my job as the chaplain in that situation, staff is probably gonna call me simply because there's been a trauma, not so and so we're also showing up in cases where we've not been specifically asked for just to evaluate. So part of our job is not unlike the medical team. I'm evaluating what the spiritual needs are in that room and in the waiting room. Right? Mhmm.
Tami:And and I'm looking for, where does it seem to me, the spirit is working and leading. I'm searching for those folks who are most open and needing the support in that moment. Right? And for other folks, if they're not needing or wanting that or or really resistant to it in that moment, I'm not there to force myself upon them. Right?
Tami:So really, it's, again, that ministry of presence, but I'm also in that presence. In being bodily present, I'm also assessing and and attuning my heart to where is spirit pointing me.
T.J.:Alright. So I have a question for you.
Tami:Okay.
T.J.:I know this varies from care facility to care facility, and medical facility to medical facility. But how do people know that you are a chaplain? Do you wear a badge? Do you wear a white coat? Do you wear a collar?
T.J.:What distinguishes you? Let us say in the waiting room, What distinguishes you from the other 20, 30, 50 people that's in the waiting room?
Tami:Well, it's a beautiful it's a beautiful question. Right now, the the answer is, in 2 parts. Currently, we have these, vests that are really cool that, I think we've had them for a couple years now that that really clearly identify us as chaplains and they're we our team helped design them, and we're kind of proud of them. So right now it's really clear that I'm a chaplain. I also have a badge that says I'm a chaplain.
Tami:But prior to that, we basically, we don't wear religious symbols because we are serving everyone. So I could be called to a Jewish patient's room or a Muslim room. And so to be respectful to every faith tradition, we don't, we're a billboard of our own so that people understand we're there for everyone. Mhmm. But we did we do wear black and white.
Tami:We kinda joke where the look like the penguins. And we're not necessarily wearing collars. So we have, again, our vest that identifies us as Chaplin, our badge. But honestly, even the presence of a caller would indicate a certain kind of faith tradition. Right?
Tami:So, so again, we're trying to to walk into the room as, I hate to use the word neutral because we're definitely on the side of how is God showing up in that moment, but but in order to be welcoming of anyone we may encounter. Mhmm. And helping that person who might be resistant They might be resistant to a caller, right, because of their trauma history. But walking in with just my chaplain vest, that's a curiosity.
T.J.:I'm still curious. What is it about the vest that this wishes you from another employee at the hospital?
Tami:It it has I wish I could push this with a visual. It it has markings on it that clearly say chaplain.
T.J.:Oh, okay.
Tami:But also, I mean, part of the symbolism we use was 2 hands holding a heart, and that we that's our image for soul care.
T.J.:Okay.
Tami:You know, it sort of identifies our spiritual care department. When we were just wearing black and white and and our vest, even though our or badge, sorry. Even though the badge clearly says chaplain, I would often get overlooked because of many people's faith traditions. I have been in the room with the patient after they paged me and still had the doctor come in and say, where's the chaplain? Because they're looking for, a man.
Tami:Oh, okay. Or a gray haired man and I'm not a gray haired man. So, I mean, I have a little gray coming in now. But, but often people, are not necessarily expecting it to be a woman showing up. So it's been actually super helpful to have our really cool vest that clearly say chaplain and spiritual care, and and it's way more obvious.
Tami:And and again, because we're not wearing overt religious symbols, it's not I don't really fault anyone for not being able to pick me out of a room full of people sometimes. But
T.J.:Yeah. I was just wondering how how was a chaplain identified in a group of people? Yeah. Tammy, we've talked about the care of other individuals in your role as a chaplain. And with that wide variety of needs that are just in one hospital, how do you care for yourself?
T.J.:Right. What does that look like?
Tami:Well, so self care is huge. Again, so, you know, there was train pretty intensive training. Basically, beyond the seminary degree, there's another whole year of intensive training that's just geared for what does chaplaincy look like, and part of that emphasis is self care. And then on top of that, there's 2,000 more hours that you put in, and on top of that, there's a board interview and etcetera, etcetera. But circling back, self care is crucial.
Tami:I wouldn't say we've always done it perfectly, but, you know, there's there's all kinds of ways, especially in my student chaplaincy. This sounds silly, but I but when I got in my car to go home, I had nice smelling hand sanitizer. And that act of just kind of cleansing my hands at the end and intentionally releasing everything that I obviously cannot fix, releasing that into the hands of God at the end of the day and not my hands. That's one one way.
T.J.:There's a lot of symbolism in that. Right. What was the scent?
Tami:Orange. It was from it was from Whole Foods, and it was orange something. And the other cool thing about it was it reminded me of I had one visit to Florida when I was a kid and the orange blossoms were blooming. And when I smell that silly hand sanitizer, it reminds me, So it combines a great childhood memory with, you know, also just of course the act of cleansing my hands and that little as a prayer that these are things I have to release. These are things not in my control.
T.J.:So in the symbolic nature of descent and and of the the touch, it kind of grabbed you away from the intensity of the day. Yeah. What's working for you now? I'm getting real personal here.
Tami:No. No. That's, I could probably, you know, we we could spend the whole thing on what is self care. What's working now again is, and sometimes I need to go back to that physical act, but internalizing that action, right? Internalizing that, the meaning of that, which is that I do not fix and I, bless you, I don't hold those problems at the end of my day and I don't fix them.
Tami:I can't fix them. So internalizing that knowledge again and again and again, releasing, I pray concrete ways. I pray intentionally holding my hands up like that. Sometimes it looks like coming home and petting the dog. It looks like being really guarded about my sleep when I can rest.
Tami:I actually So, kind of circling back to your original question of schedule. One of my big shifts is a daytime shift, but another consistent shift for me starts mid afternoon and goes all night until 9:30, at which time I remain at the hospital in our sleep room. And then I'm on call with a pager. So, so I'm not actively visiting patients at that time, but I have a pager for emergencies. So that looks like somebody's imminently dying and they want me there.
Tami:That looks like somebody just came in with a horrific injury and family's upset and they want me there to provide comfort for family. It can look like, sadly, those times that a mom is going to lose her baby and they want support and comfort and presence to be there for those neonatal losses. So that means that my Thursday nights, I don't always get a good night's sleep. And that, and then I could, I don't work every single weekend, but when I do work a weekend, typically I'm working over a 24 hour time period, which includes an overnight. So I could have to rest up and then dive in again and be prepared for a couple shifts and then another overnight where I'm on call.
Tami:So I do find I have to be pretty militant about managing my energy and my sleep and my rest. And, it's not always easy for others to understand. And I'm, you know, I'm not a spring chicken anymore. So recovery from one of those kind of nights is not, you know, it can take a little bit. The other thing, of course, we live in Colorado and being very intentional about putting myself outdoors and being very intentional about noticing the birds and the wildlife and just the sunshine, but getting myself eating well, moving well, moving right, moving my body and outside.
T.J.:Mhmm. Tammy, you mentioned that your first job was a school teacher. Mhmm. So you haven't always been a chaplain. Let's talk a little bit about being a school teacher and then your calling into ministry.
T.J.:And you can sprinkle in there, you know, your faith. If you want to go back even earlier, we can. And, it looks like we're moving backwards in time, and then we can always move to the present. Then we can move to the future if you want.
Tami:See, that's how I talk normally. So
T.J.:Alright. You mentioned that you were a school teacher. So let's talk about that for a moment.
Tami:In hindsight, I would say it's all been ministry. So my grew up in a Baptist family in Iowa. But my first couple years of teaching were in Kansas City, Missouri in the inner city schools. And they had just gone through, that district had just gone through a lawsuit for being racially segregated. Ironically, it was because the inner city district in Kansas City, Missouri experienced white flight, like a lot of cities did.
Tami:And, the lawsuit was ironically a way of bringing resources back in to the schools. But it was my first, it was my I wouldn't trade that for the world. It was my first understanding of being not in the in that setting, I was I was the minority. And I had to learn I had to be so attuned to what an entirely different experience of the world looked like in that setting, versus small town Iowa.
T.J.:Quite a change.
Tami:Quite a change. I I was teaching reading. I was in middle teaching middle school. And I was in a school that was one of the last schools to receive resources. So I was teaching 7th grade reading, without textbooks.
Tami:It was my first understanding of what it meant to be a teacher in a severely under resourced setting. With kids who were also severely under resourced, as a way to put it. What did it look like to be their teacher and be the best teacher I could be with nothing? It was in a part of town that, it was not unusual to have police presence in and around the school because, a lot of gang activity was going on. A lot of my kids were wrapped up in that.
Tami:We have when I when I talk to my teacher colleagues from those years, we can recount students we had who died of gun violence, many of them. So I wouldn't trade that you those years for the world. It was also I was teaching in 1988. It was at the height of the AIDS crisis. So a lot of my colleagues, the ones who most got me through that time and taught me taught me what it meant to be devoted to students in that setting.
Tami:A lot of those colleagues were on the LGBTQ spectrum, and they were working in that setting because they weren't welcome in the suburbs. So I would say I've always been, somehow God has placed me from the beginning with folks that weren't welcome in a lot of other settings, but who it was my job to be present with, to learn from, to humbly understand a perspective wildly different than my own experiences, wildly different than my own.
T.J.:Yeah. How did your faith speak to you at that time? Because you're you're fresh out of college, you know, 1st full time job or one of your first full time jobs, and then a physical transplant.
Tami:Right.
T.J.:And so where was where was God in all of that for you?
Tami:Well, it's it's exactly what I ask my patients now. Where is God in this for you right now? But at that time, boy, I remember I remember crying every day, just weeping at what weeping at how I had not understood
T.J.:before
Tami:the experience of the world others face. Weeping at my own ignorance. Weeping because most of my, you know, I had a wonderful, beautiful Christian upbringing, but it, there was a lot of resistance in my family about the lessons I was learning and what I was experiencing. At the height of the AIDS crisis, there was a lot of rejection from the church, big C, in general. At the end, what does the meaning I I made is I asked myself, this is my phrase, where is Jesus showing up?
Tami:To me, Jesus was showing up my LGBTQ friends who were wildly devoted to the needs of the folks in that setting who taught me to do the same. Jesus was showing up in those same friends who took me under their wing when I was sad and lonely and alone. Jesus showed up as I watched them caring for their dear friends dying of AIDS when their own families or churches were not were rejecting them. I believe they were the hands and feet of Christ to those individuals, especially at that time. And and in that inner city setting.
Tami:And so Jesus showed up where I was taught Jesus didn't show up and wouldn't show up and couldn't show up.
T.J.:So your eyes were opened in many ways from your faith to your career. How did your faith inform you of this this new part of your life, moving away from Iowa? And the other half of this question is, how is this inching you towards ministry?
Tami:Yeah. Well, because it is ministry. Being the hands and feet of Christ, showing up in hard situations, showing up for the marginalized, showing up for the poor, the under resourced. That's following in the footsteps of Christ. And I and I was following those footsteps then, and I just I it's just the same it's just an extension of the same path.
Tami:Yeah.
T.J.:At what point did you feel a calling towards ministry of the word and the sacraments?
Tami:You know, it didn't I had a grandmother who was a pastor. She was a United Methodist pastor in a small country church in Wisconsin. And my my grandfather was also, but,
T.J.:So she was pretty cutting edge then.
Tami:She was cutting edge and I didn't get it, because I grew up in a Baptist church that did not allow women pastors. So somehow that it took a long time for me to understand, Eve, despite having my, my reverend grandmother pastor, who was lovely and faithful and showed me how to live a life of faith. It being in, in my own church background, it just took me a lot of years to, understand that God could be even calling me to ordain ministry.
T.J.:Interesting. So did you look at that grandmother any different than your other grandmother?
Tami:I just you know, I've I thought it was pretty cool. But both grandmothers were, you know, both grandmothers were church organists, and pianists, and musicians. And there was just heavy it was just I think I made sense of it as it was just another layer of involvement in the church. I think I had the blessing of being young enough to realize, not to realize how scandalized the other side of the family was that she was a reverend. And honestly, when I started seminary at age 42, there were many family members who disapproved, including at that time, my own mom.
Tami:So it took a long time. And ironically, when I took a break, it took me 10 years to get through seminary. Some of us take the slow bus and that's okay. But, I was also, you know, my son was young and, I wanted I tried to balance it as best I could. But I took a break from seminary, actually kind of 3 quarters of the way in, and thought about not going back.
Tami:And so, ironically, over that decade, it was my mom who, in the end, told me to get my get my butt back to seminary. You know, her words were, get your butt back to seminary now because God has something for you to do. I just know it. So in the end, she was one of my big cheerleaders.
T.J.:What was the change do you think? You
Tami:know, I think I think her her own journey for I mean, for stories that we don't have the time to tell here, but her own journey as a woman of faith, and conviction she arrived at because of those experiences in her life. And I think watching me, watching how things were unfolding and yeah. It was it was a progression and I get it because it took, we can only walk one step at a time. Right.
T.J.:I I guess I should, clarify my questioning. I'm just assuming that the grandmother that, was ordained United Methodist spinner minister was not your mother's mother. Correct. Right. Because there could have been a cut fault.
T.J.:It it it could be, you know, the child of, you know, minister and going
Tami:Got it. Oh. No. My mom represents the more conservative conservative side of the family for, I mean, I dislike labels, but for lack of better language that would not have approved, did not approve of my journey. And, and my mom was regularly reminded by some family members on how how far astray I was going because of just even me going to seminary.
T.J.:Interesting. Wow. So she was able to take a, pretty big leap on on supporting you on your behalf.
Tami:It was a very, she she there's a whole story around, she's the one who told me to go back, and then she died of pancreatic cancer. She was diagnosed and died of pancreatic cancer while I was a student chaplain learning how to be present for people who were dying and, experiencing traumatic news, This was going on with my mom. So, she ironically passed away just within a couple weeks of my graduation after a decade of school. But the I was able, before she passed away, the same day I went to pick up my cap and gown for graduation from seminary, I picked up a letter of employment from my current hospital, and I was able to let her know that this is where this is what that she was right, that God had a plan
T.J.:after all. Sammy, with with these twists and turns and valleys and mountains in your journey, why have you remained connected to the Christian faith? I mean, you faced some obstacles, even currently, just in terms of the ministry that you have. There must be very difficult difficult days as people, including you as part of the care team, facing life and death. So what is keeping you centered presently, but really all throughout your life?
T.J.:What is it about that faith?
Tami:I think I've had a journey of being extremely discouraged with church in a generic way, and more and more challenged to follow the footsteps of Christ deeper. So, while I am there in my current position and really as a public school teacher to embrace everyone, and I do. And to find value in in every faith tradition, and I do. I think what keeps me in a Christian tradition is the life of Jesus. The solidarity with those who most need.
Tami:I mean, come those who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. And that that God is on the side of humans who are suffering.
T.J.:Yeah. I can definitely see where we as just humans, we we articulate our faith. We kind of talk about Jesus and church, the institution church, sort of interchangeably. Right. And and you're pulling those.
T.J.:He can't pull them completely apart, but you're distinguishing the 2 as being distinct, which I think is important, so that others may be able to hear the good news in spite of some of the the failings of the church and not let the church be a barrier, historically speaking.
Tami:Yeah. The the the Gandhi quote, which I will murder. I'm, for people that can quote things very well, you need my husband or my son, but, that wish wish it were me. But, you know, the Gandhi quote about, I I don't like your Christians, but I like your Christ.
T.J.:Yeah. Yeah. Or something like,
Tami:how did it go?
T.J.:I'd be I don't remember it either. I'm not good at something about that. I would be a I'd be a Christian if it wasn't for the I'm butchering it too.
Tami:Yeah.
T.J.:I'll look it up later. I'll put it at I'll put it at the end of the podcast.
Tami:Yeah. I mean, there's the institution of church, which can look like a lot of ways. It's many a multitude of denominations, the institution of church. But how is the light of Christ showing up? How how is God showing up?
Tami:God is not to be put in our boxes. What a boring thing that would be. I mean, I'm relying, I'm relying when I when I walk into a room of the only surviving members of a mass shooting in someone's home. When I'm walking into the room of a family saying goodbye to their loved one who's just been violently taken from them because of gun violence. When I'm walking into the room of someone in our psychiatric emergency department that is completely disconnected from reality, I I walk in not by myself, but with a God who already stands with those who are suffering.
T.J.:That is quite the the message and representation. Tammy, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, what is your favorite aspect of this little denomination? What draws you to this this church? Since we've been talking about church as an organization.
Tami:You know, I'm gonna start with our little, the little presbytery, shout out to the presbytery del cristo. My heart is won over again and again, every time we have our face, you know, our meetings, our presbytery meetings. It's such a come on. We have a we have churches, a church on the border. We have churches in California, you know, Korean and Chinese, and we have Spanish speaking, and we have, you know, we were in Lubbock in the oil fields.
Tami:We represent a big tent. And I love our big tent. I love it so much. We are, again, I think I love it because it represents what I love about where I work. Where I work, I can hear international languages and encounter people from around the globe.
Tami:And the same is true in our itty bitty presbytery del cristo. It's a small representation of the whole globe. How cool is that? And we represent a variety of ministries and opinions. I love that we are all together in the same gathering and my word is under the same big tent.
Tami:I value that. I also think Cumberland Presbyterian from its inception has tried to find that middle way. I grew up Baptist. I spent a lot of years in the Christian Reformed Church. So I have a good understanding of Reformed Theology as well as Baptist kind of theology and Cumberland is kind of that middle way between.
Tami:And so I think that's great DNA that striving to find what still holds us together that's larger than ourselves. And I hope we can keep a hold of that.
T.J.:Well, Tammy, before we part ways, what books or maybe music, maybe a movie that has impacted your faith, impacted your life, and that you would recommend?
Tami:Well, I have a list of favorites. I'm not gonna be everybody's favorites, but I, I love, I really love the writings of Richard Rohr. I particularly love his framework in Falling Upwards that articulates a faith journey from and that that represents my own. From he kinda talks about starting out with the solid container that has very clear boundaries around it and is safe and secure and grounding. And I had that and I'm thankful for that.
Tami:And then, and then he goes into, as you progress in your faith journey, there could be that, people poke holes in that container in a variety of ways. Life pokes holes in the container. And then how do we how do we make sense of that? And then at the end, kind of in the progression, not not really that we're at the end because I don't think we're ever finished. But, but what does maturity, our spiritual maturity look like beyond the safety of our original container, faith container, beyond the holes that got put in in it from life and circumstances and wounds, what does our faith journey look like beyond all that?
Tami:Where is God still in the paradox of all that? And I I find that framework helpful personally, and I draw upon it as I meet with others in my work as a spiritual care provider. I really love Rachel Held Evans who passed away too soon. But particularly loved her sassiness about a year of biblical womanhood. I find so many of her writings and perspectives still with that beautiful sense of humor, but also again that big tent.
Tami:I find her so helpful. And then, currently, I would recommend anything by Kate Bowler. She is, Mennonite. She had, I think, stage 4 colon cancer at a young age and when her son was only 2. And she's written a book called No Cure For Being Human.
Tami:And I don't mean to shout out another podcast, but but her podcast is everything happens and she crosses out for a reason. And I it's perfect for a chaplain because what I see in my setting is that everything happens and finding a reason for, most of the family to be shot dead in their home, or child to die unrestrained, because their parent was drunk driving. We encounter all the things in life for which defy finding a reason. So her writing and her podcast, everything happens. And where is God in that?
Tami:How is how is faith playing a role in that, I found incredibly helpful and informative.
T.J.:Any movies? Any music that you like that speaks to you, to your faith?
Tami:Okay. This is gonna be just a complete,
T.J.:Marty laughing. I haven't even heard.
Tami:For no particular reason, I think the princess bride just because I don't know. It's my soul care. It just endlessly makes me laugh when I can recite all the lines and it's our family tradition to watch it together and say the lines together every summer. So for no other reason than the laughter and this pure joy and soul care of it, The Princess Bride. And if you don't know what that is, you need to go watch it now.
Tami:And absolutely, this is where I will proselytize and say you must love this movie.
T.J.:I've seen it. I need more convincing.
Tami:Okay. So why do people feel that way? And I'm still praying for your souls. So but, and then ironically, I well, I guess on the complete other end is I love the King's speech. I love it for its story of stepping into discomfort despite one's personal weaknesses, and doing so, exposing the really human part of doing that.
Tami:I think those are my 2 favorites.
T.J.:Alright. It is it's hard to narrow down books and music and movies. I don't know if I can name just one of each. Well, before we, wrap it up, I want to end with this question, specifically because of the vocation that you have. Where, where is God's presence right now today?
Tami:In a big way or in a particular way?
T.J.:Well, if there's more than one answer, please share.
Tami:All I can say is that I have entered a huge variety of horrific situations. Mental health wise, physical health wise, end of life wise. During COVID. That was a whole another story. And yet the same story, the same story because every time I enter a situation, I just pray, come, spirit come.
Tami:And somehow, story after story, I know God's spirit has been present. And and not just not just with me, but here's God's spirit is at work before I enter the room. In the lives of those humans, no matter who they are or where they're from. And I have to come in with some humility that God's somehow bigger than me and is already present and working. And then I enter the room asking for God's spirit to help me, show me where where the winds are blowing and how can I enter in?
Tami:How can I how can I just be part of the trade winds that are already blowing?
T.J.:Yeah. I guess I often think about faith journeys and, you know, the topography, analogies, and metaphors of mountains and valleys and twists and turns and all that. There's another way to look at it as well in terms of the journey of those times where God seems really, really close. Mhmm. And then there's bends in the journey that take on feeling of absence or distance.
Tami:Mhmm. I, it okay. I have to tell. If you have time for this, great. And if you have to cut it, it's fine.
Tami:But but I'll tell the story that I I told when I was preaching for my ordination. So I spent a decade in seminary. And
T.J.:The 10 year plan?
Tami:The 10 year plan, which is I don't necessarily endorse, but that's that's what it was. And I was, at the end of a decade, I didn't know what God wanted me to do with all that. And so but I was a student chaplain in this place I'm that I still am. And, and I loved it. I finally felt like I had found where I was supposed to be.
Tami:So on this day, I was really mad at God because the end of the semester was approaching. And I don't know if I already knew my mom was dying at that time. But I I just remember I I was walking to go see a patient, and I was intentionally taking the stairs because I wanted time to express silently my silent angry prayers at God for how he had forgotten me and how he'd put me through 10 years of this, and it was for nothing. And I finally found where I fit. And now I'm just gonna have to leave it.
Tami:And this has just been one big story of loss, and where are you anyway? I don't I think you've forgotten me. You're not hearing me. All all of those things. Angry my angry prayers.
Tami:I'm marching to this person's room intentionally taking the stairs to burn off my own energy. And not only that, I was going to this room that, you know, we typically if people are resistant to us, we're not forcing ourselves. But I was a student And somehow I was kind of expected to go check-in on this guy even though he, you know, because students, that's what you students get to do the things that nobody else wants to do. So, I'm marching myself up to this room. This guy never talks to me.
Tami:He always pulls the covers up over his head. And why am I gonna bother? I've gotta put on a gown before I go in. It's such a pain in the rear and gloves and because this guy had a bad infection and he had his foot, he was homeless and he had endured a winter where he didn't have dry socks to put on, and he only had one pair of boots, and he didn't have dry socks or shoes. And so he'd worn his wet socks and boots, and this foot was now full of gangrene and needed to be amputated.
Tami:And I think the reason I was there was because the medical team was hoping that the chaplain could convince him that he probably needed to go through with this surgery. And he wasn't about to, despite the fact that this smelly, ugly foot was there and it was hanging out because it was painful for the sheets to be on top of it. So I'm gonna walk in this smelly room with this man who pulls the covers over his head and doesn't wanna talk to me. I'm not gonna convince him to do you know, this medical team thinks as a chaplain, like, somehow God's just gonna make a miracle, make this man change his mind. These are all my my cynical thoughts walking into this room.
Tami:And I, you know, I don't know how many visits, many visits. This day, I'm yelling at God. I'm mad at God. God's forgotten me. I walk in this room, I did the gown and the gloves and I'm expecting to just introduce myself, hey, I'm here to bug you again.
Tami:And then leave, you know, do the whole thing. And this day I say, hey, it's Chaplain Tammy, I'm just, you know, I'm here to bug you again, You know? And he says, Oh, Chaplain Tammy. And this is again, kind of what I mean by ministry of presence. Like literally putting your physical body in the room a lot of times.
Tami:Mhmm. And thinking it didn't mean anything. And he pulls the covers off his head and he looks at me. And I'm thinking, great, now I have to talk. Now I'm still in my cynical mode.
Tami:Right? This is very human real real stuff. And he looked at me and this is the stuff you can't make up. He said, you know, I used to think God had forgotten me. I used to think I was just another dark star in the sky and God had forgotten me.
Tami:But I've been laying here all this time And God finally told me, you are my precious son. Well, now I'm weeping. And now he's weeping. I'm like, okay, God. Okay.
Tami:Now I'm there to learn from this homeless individual with gangrene in his smelly foot, teaching me how to listen for God. And that God has not forgotten him. And we wind up crying and praying and celebrating how God has not forgotten us.
T.J.:Tammy, thank you for risking your journey and sharing it with me. We talked off, Mike, about the vulnerability. Thank you for sharing your story, and thank you for your hearty laugh. I always look forward to hearing you laugh. I've intentionally not tried to say too much, selfishly, just so that I can hear you laugh.
Tami:Yeah. Good to know.
T.J.:Yeah. Thank you. Forgiving of yourself and to talk about your relationship with God with me to share with others. Thank you, Tammy.
Tami:You're welcome. And I I thank you for the honor and the invitation to be invited to do that. And thank you for being a good holder of many, many stories in this podcast. And what a gift. What a gift that is.
Tami:Thank you.
T.J.:Thank you for listening to the Cumberland Road. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please consider following and subscribing on Apple, Spotify, and Google. In our conversation, Tammy and I were trying to recollect the quote from Gandhi. I have found 2. Maybe one of these is the one we were trying to remember. Gandhi said, I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. You Christians are unlike your Christ. Or I may have been Christian were it not for Christians. My conversation with Tammy reminded me of Paul Tillich and his book, Eternal Now. Tillich wrote, our qualification is from god and not from ourselves, and the all consoling word that god is greater than our heart. If we look beyond ourselves at that which is greater than we, then we can feel called to help others in just a moment when we ourselves need help most urgently and astonishingly, we can help.
